Hi, I have a 96 Honda Accord with the standard Honda head unit. I have been
told these are a rebadged Alpine - can anyone confirm? There is an 8 pin
DIN plug labelled "CHG" and the front panel controls are labeled for CD
fuctions.

I have found quite a few second-hand changers of various brands and many of
them, not necessarily Alpine, have a 8 pin DIN socket. Is there a standard
amongst manufacturers (ie do they interchange) or does everyone have theri
own setup?
Is ther an FAQ that covers this type of thing, or any other URLS that could
assist?

Thanks in advance
Pete

REBADGED???

NO!!!

They may be actually made by Alpine, but they are NOT anything
like an Alpine you would buy at a store.... Rebadged would mean
they are exactly the same except for the label....

If Alpine makes them for Honda they are made to HONDA SPECS
not ALPINE SPECS!! They are in no way anything like a high end
aftermarket Alpine unit you would buy at a nice stereo shoppe!

The 8 pin din plug IS NOT STANDARD!
And is NOT like an ALPINE or probably anything else on the aftermarket!

LUCKILY they make adapters so you can use an aftermarket changer
http://www.installer.com/adapt.html

Eddie

pete wrote:

Hi, I have a 96 Honda Accord with the standard Honda head unit. I have been
told these are a rebadged Alpine - can anyone confirm? There is an 8 pin
DIN plug labelled "CHG" and the front panel controls are labeled for CD
fuctions.

I have found quite a few second-hand changers of various brands and many of
them, not necessarily Alpine, have a 8 pin DIN socket. Is there a standard
amongst manufacturers (ie do they interchange) or does everyone have theri
own setup?
Is ther an FAQ that covers this type of thing, or any other URLS that could
assist?

Thanks in advance
Pete

Eddie, the fact is the OEM versions have to meet a higher standard to
qualify for use by the carmaker, so the implication that the aftermarket
one is better is a little disingenuous at best... they both play CD's,
the distortion and S/N are probably close enough that you couldn't tell
one from the other without some damned expensive test gear, where's the
aftermarket unit any better? They change the data protocol or the cable
pinouts for the OEM versions to prevent car dealers from losing business
to the aftermarket, but I wouldn't want to try and make a case that the
aftermarket versions are better.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

REBADGED???

NO!!!

They may be actually made by Alpine, but they are NOT anything
like an Alpine you would buy at a store.... Rebadged would mean
they are exactly the same except for the label....

If Alpine makes them for Honda they are made to HONDA SPECS
not ALPINE SPECS!! They are in no way anything like a high end
aftermarket Alpine unit you would buy at a nice stereo shoppe!

The 8 pin din plug IS NOT STANDARD!
And is NOT like an ALPINE or probably anything else on the aftermarket!

LUCKILY they make adapters so you can use an aftermarket changer
http://www.installer.com/adapt.html

Eddie

pete wrote:



Hi, I have a 96 Honda Accord with the standard Honda head unit. I have been
told these are a rebadged Alpine - can anyone confirm? There is an 8 pin
DIN plug labelled "CHG" and the front panel controls are labeled for CD
fuctions.

I have found quite a few second-hand changers of various brands and many of
them, not necessarily Alpine, have a 8 pin DIN socket. Is there a standard
amongst manufacturers (ie do they interchange) or does everyone have theri
own setup?
Is ther an FAQ that covers this type of thing, or any other URLS that could
assist?

Thanks in advance
Pete

Durbin, shut the hell up!!!!!

You seem to be wasting everyones time trying to say
a factory Honda radio is as good as an aftermarket Alpine!!??

Fk you, the Alpine has RCAs!!!
I would call the ALPINE a high end unit and the HONDA
radio (even if made by Alpine) a piece of crap (although usually
very reliable)...

Eddie

John Durbin wrote:

Eddie, the fact is the OEM versions have to meet a higher standard to
qualify for use by the carmaker, so the implication that the
aftermarket one is better is a little disingenuous at best... they
both play CD's, the distortion and S/N are probably close enough that
you couldn't tell one from the other without some damned expensive
test gear, where's the aftermarket unit any better? They change the
data protocol or the cable pinouts for the OEM versions to prevent car
dealers from losing business to the aftermarket, but I wouldn't want
to try and make a case that the aftermarket versions are better.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

REBADGED???

NO!!!

They may be actually made by Alpine, but they are NOT anything
like an Alpine you would buy at a store.... Rebadged would mean
they are exactly the same except for the label....

If Alpine makes them for Honda they are made to HONDA SPECS
not ALPINE SPECS!! They are in no way anything like a high end
aftermarket Alpine unit you would buy at a nice stereo shoppe!

The 8 pin din plug IS NOT STANDARD!
And is NOT like an ALPINE or probably anything else on the
aftermarket!

LUCKILY they make adapters so you can use an aftermarket changer
http://www.installer.com/adapt.html

Eddie

pete wrote:


Hi, I have a 96 Honda Accord with the standard Honda head unit. I
have been
told these are a rebadged Alpine - can anyone confirm? There is an
8 pin
DIN plug labelled "CHG" and the front panel controls are labeled
for CD
fuctions.

I have found quite a few second-hand changers of various brands and
many of
them, not necessarily Alpine, have a 8 pin DIN socket. Is there a
standard
amongst manufacturers (ie do they interchange) or does everyone
have theri
own setup?
Is ther an FAQ that covers this type of thing, or any other URLS
that could
assist?

Thanks in advance
Pete

Durbin, shut the hell up!!!!!

You seem to be wasting everyones time trying to say
a factory Honda radio is as good as an aftermarket Alpine!!??

Fk you, the Alpine has RCAs!!!
I would call the ALPINE a high end unit and the HONDA
radio (even if made by Alpine) a piece of crap (although usually
very reliable)...

What's the difference? I've never dealt with a Honda changer or radio.
What's wrong with them?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Durbin, shut the hell up!!!!!

You seem to be wasting everyones time trying to say
a factory Honda radio is as good as an aftermarket Alpine!!??

Fk you, the Alpine has RCAs!!!
I would call the ALPINE a high end unit and the HONDA
radio (even if made by Alpine) a piece of crap (although usually
very reliable)...

What's the difference? I've never dealt with a Honda changer or radio.
What's wrong with them?

Wasn't out to start a war with my original question!
I found this page http://www.nsx.net/projects/alpine.html which supports my
idea that Alpine OEMs "some" Honda audio.

I was talking about the changer, actually... I hope your definition of
quality doesn't revolve solely around whether the device uses std.
connectors - there's a ton of stuff in the world with RCA's that blows
chunks.

JD
and you're hardly one to judge whether my comments here are a "waste of
everyone's time"

Eddie Runner wrote:

Durbin, shut the hell up!!!!!

You seem to be wasting everyones time trying to say
a factory Honda radio is as good as an aftermarket Alpine!!??

Fk you, the Alpine has RCAs!!!
I would call the ALPINE a high end unit and the HONDA
radio (even if made by Alpine) a piece of crap (although usually
very reliable)...

Eddie

John Durbin wrote:

Eddie, the fact is the OEM versions have to meet a higher standard to
qualify for use by the carmaker, so the implication that the
aftermarket one is better is a little disingenuous at best... they
both play CD's, the distortion and S/N are probably close enough that
you couldn't tell one from the other without some damned expensive
test gear, where's the aftermarket unit any better? They change the
data protocol or the cable pinouts for the OEM versions to prevent
car dealers from losing business to the aftermarket, but I wouldn't
want to try and make a case that the aftermarket versions are better.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

REBADGED???

NO!!!

They may be actually made by Alpine, but they are NOT anything
like an Alpine you would buy at a store.... Rebadged would mean
they are exactly the same except for the label....

If Alpine makes them for Honda they are made to HONDA SPECS
not ALPINE SPECS!! They are in no way anything like a high end
aftermarket Alpine unit you would buy at a nice stereo shoppe!

The 8 pin din plug IS NOT STANDARD!
And is NOT like an ALPINE or probably anything else on the aftermarket!

LUCKILY they make adapters so you can use an aftermarket changer
http://www.installer.com/adapt.html

http://www.installer.com/adapt.htmlEddie

pete wrote:



Hi, I have a 96 Honda Accord with the standard Honda head unit. I have been
told these are a rebadged Alpine - can anyone confirm? There is an 8 pin
DIN plug labelled "CHG" and the front panel controls are labeled for CD
fuctions.

I have found quite a few second-hand changers of various brands and many of
them, not necessarily Alpine, have a 8 pin DIN socket. Is there a standard
amongst manufacturers (ie do they interchange) or does everyone have theri
own setup?
Is ther an FAQ that covers this type of thing, or any other URLS that could
assist?

Thanks in advance
Pete

There is nothing wrong with them per se.
but like most OEM equipment it is not considered by
many to be HIGH END.....

Alpine may make the factory OEM radio but it is NOTHING
LIKE and aftermarket Alpine piece at all.....


Mark Zarella wrote:

What's the difference? I've never dealt with a Honda changer or radio.
What's wrong with them?

Alpine and Pioneer make alot of OEM equipment.
But just because it says ALPINE on it does not
equate it in any way (other than a label) to the aftermarket
Alpine products you can buy at a stereo shoppe....

pete wrote:

Wasn't out to start a war with my original question!
I found this page http://www.nsx.net/projects/alpine.html which supports my
idea that Alpine OEMs "some" Honda audio.

John Durbin wrote:

I was talking about the changer, actually...

the changer is OK.... I guess....
Actually not alot of folks want changers nowdays!
Folks finally realized parking the car and opening the trunk
everytime they want to change CDs really sucks!!

Nowdays with MP3s alot of folks would rather just forget about the
changer.

there's a ton of stuff in the world with RCA's that blows chunks.

We were talking about Alpine I think.... Are there any Alpine units
that
"BLOW CHUNKS" ???

JD
and you're hardly one to judge whether my comments here are a "waste
of everyone's time"

ha ha ha
Durbin you make me laugh when you get excited...


Eddie Runner

There is nothing wrong with them per se.
but like most OEM equipment it is not considered by
many to be HIGH END.....

Alpine may make the factory OEM radio but it is NOTHING
LIKE and aftermarket Alpine piece at all.....

What attributes would you consider "high end"? I'm trying to figure out
what you mean when you say it's a piece of crap.

Mark Zarella wrote:

What attributes would you consider "high end"? I'm trying to figure out
what you mean when you say it's a piece of crap.

Well piece of crap may be hard to define.... I would say many factory
headunits are pieces of crap (in relation to some aftermarket pieces)
because of the design and its ability to build a high end system around it.

Factory OEM systems are hard to interface with, they build them that
way on purpose... From an installers point of view that makes em a piece
of crap... Some installers (like myself) pride themselves in being able to

adapt into the OEM headuntis and other installers wont touch em....
(bose or monsoon or factory BMW or many others)

Where as so many aftermarket units are designed so they can work
with aftermarket amplifiers easily, auxillirary inputs and adapt easily
to a system as big as you wanna design it...

In other words aftermarket stuff (generally) designs for adding to it
till your happy, whether its a little system or a huge system,....

OEM on the other hand want you (generally) to keep HANDS OFF!!

Honda for instance since we are talking about them, MAY get
Alpine to make the head units and changers, bt then WHY doesnt an
aftermarket Alpine changer plug right in and work so you dont have to
pay the Honda dealer high dollar??? CAUSE THEY intentionally
have the changers made so that an inexpensive aftermarket changer
will work!! They want the money! Thay dont want us fkin with it!

Of course there are adapters to allow the hookup of aftermarket changers.
But the original design is the reason I like to call em a piece of crap!

Eddie

Well piece of crap may be hard to define.... I would say many factory
headunits are pieces of crap (in relation to some aftermarket pieces)
because of the design and its ability to build a high end system around
it.

Factory OEM systems are hard to interface with, they build them that
way on purpose... From an installers point of view that makes em a piece
of crap... Some installers (like myself) pride themselves in being able
to

adapt into the OEM headuntis and other installers wont touch em....
(bose or monsoon or factory BMW or many others)

Where as so many aftermarket units are designed so they can work
with aftermarket amplifiers easily, auxillirary inputs and adapt easily
to a system as big as you wanna design it...

In other words aftermarket stuff (generally) designs for adding to it
till your happy, whether its a little system or a huge system,....

OEM on the other hand want you (generally) to keep HANDS OFF!!

Honda for instance since we are talking about them, MAY get
Alpine to make the head units and changers, bt then WHY doesnt an
aftermarket Alpine changer plug right in and work so you dont have to
pay the Honda dealer high dollar??? CAUSE THEY intentionally
have the changers made so that an inexpensive aftermarket changer
will work!! They want the money! Thay dont want us fkin with it!

Of course there are adapters to allow the hookup of aftermarket changers.
But the original design is the reason I like to call em a piece of crap!

Not sure about the Hondas, but nowadays you can tap into the preouts of most
(but not all) OEM units with the pieces available from soundgate, pie, pac,
blitzsafe, etc. When you can't, you're right that they're inferior.

Mark Zarella wrote:

Not sure about the Hondas, but nowadays you can tap into the preouts of most
(but not all) OEM units

Mark there are NO factory OEM radios that I am aware of that have PRE-OUTS!

PRE-OUT I define as normal RCA configuration...

Even the factory radios with seperate amps dont use it, they almost always
use a balanced line configurations with differing output levels from one radio
to
another.... As you probably know, the balanced line wont hook up to common
ground RCA adapters... And the levels are totally different from one head unit
to another ....

with the pieces available from soundgate, pie, pac,
blitzsafe, etc. When you can't, you're right that they're inferior.

Yes, there are adapters on the market to help installers do this, a viriety of
hi lo adapters, many with isolation transformers and some with only resistors.

But still, the OEM guys do this with the intention of locking the customer
into thier system only!! They have played these tricks as long as I remember.

If I remember right,
back in the 70s there was some kind of legislation passed so the customer
could use a RADIO DELETE option, but the manufacturers have built
radios more and more complex to prevent this... Back in the 70s believe it or
not, it was quite common for a customer to make a fuss with the car dealer
untill they removed the overpriced radio (GM AM only radio was near $600).
Many many of the cars we did back then came to us without any radio at all.
Nowdays it is very rare to see any car without a radio...

Eddie

Not sure about the Hondas, but nowadays you can tap into the preouts of
most
(but not all) OEM units

Mark there are NO factory OEM radios that I am aware of that have
PRE-OUTS!

PRE-OUT I define as normal RCA configuration...

The kind of connectors on the radio do not define whether or not there's a
preamp level output.

Even the factory radios with seperate amps dont use it, they almost always
use a balanced line configurations with differing output levels from one
radio
to
another.... As you probably know, the balanced line wont hook up to
common
ground RCA adapters... And the levels are totally different from one head
unit
to another ....

That's why there are adapters to convert from one preout "type" to another.
But it's still an "unamplified" output. In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that use a
data protocol.

Mark Zarella wrote:

PRE-OUT I define as normal RCA configuration...

The kind of connectors on the radio do not define whether or not there's a
preamp level output.

I didnt say RCA connectors, I said RCA configuration, ...
(and I thought I had explained it but I guess you didnt read)

RCA configuration is COMMON GROUND !!
There are few if any factory radios with common ground outputs
designed to hook up to our aftermerket amplifiers....

That's why there are adapters to convert from one preout "type" to another.

Woulnt you rather have the CLEAN SOUND of a unit thats designed
to work with our aftermerket amplifiers that one you have to ADAPT!
The push pull of the balanced line out kinda sucks in my opinion
when you have to pad it down and only use half the signal with an
ADAPTER.... (compared to an aftermarket headunit with RCA)

But it's still an "unamplified" output.

Unamplified??
I think on the contrary is it amplified with a balanced amplifier!
Changing it to common ground RCA could have audable effects on
some radio / adapter combinations....
Prolly wont have thet problem with an aftermarket headunit...

In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that use a
data protocol.

Just what does that help in relation to upgrading the system??

The OEM guys are full of PROPAGANDA and MARKETING HYPE
to fool you into thinking the factory headunits are actually good!

All Honda radios are about the same, whether Alpine makes them
or not... They let it slip out that your getting an Alpine headunit in
hopes that you will think its better than it really is...

BMW has a Harmon Kardon system that SUCKS BADLY!
I have had severl customers with this particular car tell me they
through Harmon Kardon made good stuff...

BOSE is an attempt to fool customers into thinking thier factory
radio is good!

Mark Levinson has thier label on some OEM systems! They
are not much more than any old OEM headunit IMO.....

Its just MARKETING BULL****!! (for the most part)
Im suprised you fell for it Mark....

Eddie Runner

The kind of connectors on the radio do not define whether or not there's
a
preamp level output.

I didnt say RCA connectors, I said RCA configuration, ...
(and I thought I had explained it but I guess you didnt read)

RCA configuration is COMMON GROUND !!
There are few if any factory radios with common ground outputs
designed to hook up to our aftermerket amplifiers....

And I guess you didn't read where I said that's where converters come into
play. My point was that it's still a preamp signal. That's why I said you
can tap into many of them with converters.


That's why there are adapters to convert from one preout "type" to
another.

Woulnt you rather have the CLEAN SOUND of a unit thats designed
to work with our aftermerket amplifiers that one you have to ADAPT!
The push pull of the balanced line out kinda sucks in my opinion
when you have to pad it down and only use half the signal with an
ADAPTER.... (compared to an aftermarket headunit with RCA)

Sometimes using an adapter is worth the extra money and extra installation
hassle if you want to keep the stock unit for other reasons. In most cases,
there's not a significant decline in performance.

But it's still an "unamplified" output.

Unamplified??
I think on the contrary is it amplified with a balanced amplifier!
Changing it to common ground RCA could have audable effects on
some radio / adapter combinations....
Prolly wont have thet problem with an aftermarket headunit...

It's not amplified with a power amplifier. Yes, all preout signals
(including the ones from aftermarket units) are technically "amplified". I
think you know what I meant.


In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that use a
data protocol.

Just what does that help in relation to upgrading the system??

Well, if you want to add aftermarket amplifiers then using those units are
the best option. That's what it helps.

The OEM guys are full of PROPAGANDA and MARKETING HYPE
to fool you into thinking the factory headunits are actually good!

All Honda radios are about the same, whether Alpine makes them
or not... They let it slip out that your getting an Alpine headunit in
hopes that you will think its better than it really is...

BMW has a Harmon Kardon system that SUCKS BADLY!
I have had severl customers with this particular car tell me they
through Harmon Kardon made good stuff...

BOSE is an attempt to fool customers into thinking thier factory
radio is good!

Mark Levinson has thier label on some OEM systems! They
are not much more than any old OEM headunit IMO.....

Its just MARKETING BULL****!! (for the most part)
Im suprised you fell for it Mark....

Some of the OEM radios are perfectly fine. They offer a low enough level of
noise and distortion to be able to compete with aftermarket units. In my
recent setup, I opted to keep the Bose radio rather than install the
Nakamichi or Eclipse head units that I have in my closet because, frankly,
it's a better unit than the Nak and has better features than the Eclipse.

Why do you say that? Some of the better OEM radios have more accurate
equalization, better S/N, and are more reliable - they have to be, car
dealers go berserk when OEM radios need fixin' a lot - and they use
basically the same tape or CD mechanisms. Sure, if you go up to the top
of the line aftermarket head, or the top few pieces, they are probably
better - aside from AM performance anyway - but the main thing is that
aftermarket decks are easy for the DIY to work with, they have standard
connections and "normal" output levels and architecture. Doesn't make
them more "high end" though...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

There is nothing wrong with them per se.
but like most OEM equipment it is not considered by
many to be HIGH END.....

Alpine may make the factory OEM radio but it is NOTHING
LIKE and aftermarket Alpine piece at all.....


Mark Zarella wrote:



What's the difference? I've never dealt with a Honda changer or radio.
What's wrong with them?

That wasn't me being "excited" ... trust me, you'll know if that happens.

I will admit I haven't had my hands on near as many aftermarket decks as
you since I retired, BUT at that point in time, you had to go damn near
to the top of the line aftermarket HU to get performance better than
many OEM units, in the areas of build quality, tuner performance,
reliability etc... a lot of the entry leve aftermarket stuff, even from
big brands like Sony and Pioneer, was TRASH! How many millions of
detachable panel tact switches have broken since they launched
detachable face? How many of these things can't tune AM to save their
lives? How many of them have lousy tone adjustment sections?

Alpine may be a little better, same with Eclipse - just from a SQ point
of view their entry level decks seemed better. But Pioneer, Sony,
Kenwood - yuck! Until you went up to their top of the line or one of the
higher priced units in their premium brand, the stuff was crap.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



I was talking about the changer, actually...



the changer is OK.... I guess....
Actually not alot of folks want changers nowdays!
Folks finally realized parking the car and opening the trunk
everytime they want to change CDs really sucks!!

Nowdays with MP3s alot of folks would rather just forget about the
changer.



there's a ton of stuff in the world with RCA's that blows chunks.



We were talking about Alpine I think.... Are there any Alpine units
that
"BLOW CHUNKS" ???



JD
and you're hardly one to judge whether my comments here are a "waste
of everyone's time"



ha ha ha
Durbin you make me laugh when you get excited...


Eddie Runner

Lexus uses (has used anyway) twisted pair unbalanced, i.e. you can
solder an RCA to the ends of them... Ford had stuff like that too, in
their premium heads. But, overall your point is well taken.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Mark Zarella wrote:



Not sure about the Hondas, but nowadays you can tap into the preouts of most
(but not all) OEM units



Mark there are NO factory OEM radios that I am aware of that have PRE-OUTS!

PRE-OUT I define as normal RCA configuration...

Even the factory radios with seperate amps dont use it, they almost always
use a balanced line configurations with differing output levels from one radio
to
another.... As you probably know, the balanced line wont hook up to common
ground RCA adapters... And the levels are totally different from one head unit
to another ....



with the pieces available from soundgate, pie, pac,
blitzsafe, etc. When you can't, you're right that they're inferior.



Yes, there are adapters on the market to help installers do this, a viriety of
hi lo adapters, many with isolation transformers and some with only resistors.

But still, the OEM guys do this with the intention of locking the customer
into thier system only!! They have played these tricks as long as I remember.

If I remember right,
back in the 70s there was some kind of legislation passed so the customer
could use a RADIO DELETE option, but the manufacturers have built
radios more and more complex to prevent this... Back in the 70s believe it or
not, it was quite common for a customer to make a fuss with the car dealer
untill they removed the overpriced radio (GM AM only radio was near $600).
Many many of the cars we did back then came to us without any radio at all.
Nowdays it is very rare to see any car without a radio...

Eddie

You don't "have" to only use half the signal from a balanced out OEM
HU... you can plug it in directly to our PPI amps, using the -12dB
attenuation switch and take advantage of the Advanced Instrumentation
Input stage... the a/d/s/ amps are the same way, they work awesome with
the output from premium OEM heads.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Mark Zarella wrote:



PRE-OUT I define as normal RCA configuration...


The kind of connectors on the radio do not define whether or not there's a
preamp level output.



I didnt say RCA connectors, I said RCA configuration, ...
(and I thought I had explained it but I guess you didnt read)

RCA configuration is COMMON GROUND !!
There are few if any factory radios with common ground outputs
designed to hook up to our aftermerket amplifiers....



That's why there are adapters to convert from one preout "type" to another.



Woulnt you rather have the CLEAN SOUND of a unit thats designed
to work with our aftermerket amplifiers that one you have to ADAPT!
The push pull of the balanced line out kinda sucks in my opinion
when you have to pad it down and only use half the signal with an
ADAPTER.... (compared to an aftermarket headunit with RCA)



But it's still an "unamplified" output.



Unamplified??
I think on the contrary is it amplified with a balanced amplifier!
Changing it to common ground RCA could have audable effects on
some radio / adapter combinations....
Prolly wont have thet problem with an aftermarket headunit...



In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that use a
data protocol.



Just what does that help in relation to upgrading the system??

The OEM guys are full of PROPAGANDA and MARKETING HYPE
to fool you into thinking the factory headunits are actually good!

All Honda radios are about the same, whether Alpine makes them
or not... They let it slip out that your getting an Alpine headunit in
hopes that you will think its better than it really is...

BMW has a Harmon Kardon system that SUCKS BADLY!
I have had severl customers with this particular car tell me they
through Harmon Kardon made good stuff...

BOSE is an attempt to fool customers into thinking thier factory
radio is good!

Mark Levinson has thier label on some OEM systems! They
are not much more than any old OEM headunit IMO.....

Its just MARKETING BULL****!! (for the most part)
Im suprised you fell for it Mark....

Eddie Runner

John Durbin wrote:
That wasn't me being "excited" ... trust me, you'll know if that happens.

I will admit I haven't had my hands on near as many aftermarket decks as
you since I retired, BUT at that point in time, you had to go damn near
to the top of the line aftermarket HU to get performance better than
many OEM units, in the areas of build quality, tuner performance,
reliability etc... a lot of the entry leve aftermarket stuff, even from
big brands like Sony and Pioneer, was TRASH! How many millions of
detachable panel tact switches have broken since they launched
detachable face? How many of these things can't tune AM to save their
lives? How many of them have lousy tone adjustment sections?

This also depends on the car. I'd keep the stock in-dash from a
Honda/Acura, Nissan, Volvo, or Volkswagon over an aftermarket in
general. I wouldn't **** on a Delco unit.

--
Lizard
Drilling holes in pc board to tap preouts is fun.

"pete" wrote in
news Hey Pete

If you email me i will tell you how to make an Alpine 6 disc changer
work with your factory radio without use of any adpators

Hey Pete

If you email me i will tell you how to make an Alpine 6 disc changer
work with your factory radio without use of any adpators


Why not just say it on here? This is an information group about all things
car audio. I'm sure this guy isn't the only one who wants to know.

Mark Zarella wrote:

And I guess you didn't read where I said that's where converters come into
play.

And you didnt read where I said Adapters suck compared to
high end head units that dont need no stinkin adapters...

My point was that it's still a preamp signal.

depends on how you define pre-amp signal!!
Some definitions could defins ANYTHING as a pre amp signal.
My point is these piece of crap radios are not designed to
work with most of our aftermarket amplifiers and yet most of
the high end headunits on the aftermarket ARE!

That's why I said you
can tap into many of them with converters.

**** Mark, you can RIG anything to work with ANYTHING
but it prolly wont sound as good as something that doesnt
need to be RIGGED....

Sometimes using an adapter is worth the extra money and extra installation
hassle if you want to keep the stock unit for other reasons. In most cases,
there's not a significant decline in performance.

Right, alot of customers just dont like the look of the aftermarket
radio, maybe they feel like it will be stolen, maybe they dont feel it
will look right in thier car... sure there are lots of folks that prefer
the factory stereo for many reasons... But SOUND QUALITY is
rarely one of them!!

It's not amplified with a power amplifier.

there must be a blanced amp of some sort!!
you mean there is no SEPERATE AMPLIFIER and therefor
it MUST be a pre-amp???

Yes, all preout signals
(including the ones from aftermarket units) are technically "amplified". I
think you know what I meant.

Well a balanced out uses a push pull signal...
thats HALF the info on one lead and half the signal on another lead..
your typical HI/LO convertor or adapter will use ONLY HALF
the signal and send the other half into a resistor to fool it so it
doesnt go balistic....

Is this a HIGH END way of deriving a signal for your RCA
amplifier??? Hooking this directly to your RCA amplifier would
short the one wire direct to ground possibly damaging the output
of the headunit...

In the old days we called RCA amps AMPLIFIERS
and we called amps that hooked into balanced line BOOSTERS!
Everyone know boosters sucked!
and still do in relation to a properly matched RCA amp
(or a rare balanced line amp)

In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that use a
data protocol.

Just what does that help in relation to upgrading the system??
Well, if you want to add aftermarket amplifiers then using those units are
the best option. That's what it helps.

Which units are these exactly???
And what advantages are there to them??

Its just MARKETING BULL****!! (for the most part)
Im suprised you fell for it Mark....

Some of the OEM radios are perfectly fine. They offer a low enough level of
noise and distortion to be able to compete with aftermarket units. In my
recent setup, I opted to keep the Bose radio rather than install the
Nakamichi or Eclipse head units that I have in my closet because, frankly,
it's a better unit than the Nak and has better features than the Eclipse.

Well Nak units of late really do suck, the lights arent bright, the controls
are laid out badly, the features are few , they wont play many CDs you
make yourself and the reliability is awfull..... I dont blame you there.....

The factory radios many times have steering wheel controls or the dash
molds around it, so many folks GIVE UP some possible sound quallity
improvements by deciding to keep the factory radio.... Its YOUR
choice... But certainly not the choice of a real audio purist....

Eddie Runner

Great plug Durbin!!
but MOST car amps arent as good as the DEI amps in this respect.

And I was talking about MOST amps..


John Durbin wrote:

You don't "have" to only use half the signal from a balanced out OEM
HU... you can plug it in directly to our PPI amps, using the -12dB
attenuation switch and take advantage of the Advanced Instrumentation
Input stage... the a/d/s/ amps are the same way, they work awesome
with the output from premium OEM heads.

JD

Right, typicly the factory radios are engineered for
reliability and EASE OF USE!! (I dont think anyone mentioned
that yet, but factory radios are something your grandma can use
as opposed to many aftermarket headunits that do so many
things when you push one button and hold it while pushing
two other buttons---- even Im lost)....

But there are some problems with some factorys, the BOSE
amp crackle comes to mind, I see so many of those little bose
amps go bad it makes me thing ALL of them are bad....Im sure
we only see a small percetage but it sure makes folks angry
when we tell em they all do that....

Customer walks in and says their stereo is making a crackling
sound, I ask if they have a BOSE system and they say
HOW DID YOU KNOW???

John Durbin wrote:

That wasn't me being "excited" ... trust me, you'll know if that
happens.

I will admit I haven't had my hands on near as many aftermarket decks
as you since I retired, BUT at that point in time, you had to go damn
near to the top of the line aftermarket HU to get performance better
than many OEM units, in the areas of build quality, tuner performance,
reliability etc... a lot of the entry leve aftermarket stuff, even
from big brands like Sony and Pioneer, was TRASH! How many millions of
detachable panel tact switches have broken since they launched
detachable face? How many of these things can't tune AM to save their
lives? How many of them have lousy tone adjustment sections?

Alpine may be a little better, same with Eclipse - just from a SQ
point of view their entry level decks seemed better. But Pioneer,
Sony, Kenwood - yuck! Until you went up to their top of the line or
one of the higher priced units in their premium brand, the stuff was
crap.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:


I was talking about the changer, actually...

the changer is OK.... I guess....
Actually not alot of folks want changers nowdays!
Folks finally realized parking the car and opening the trunk
everytime they want to change CDs really sucks!!

Nowdays with MP3s alot of folks would rather just forget about the
changer.


there's a ton of stuff in the world with RCA's that blows chunks.

We were talking about Alpine I think.... Are there any Alpine units
that
"BLOW CHUNKS" ???


JD
and you're hardly one to judge whether my comments here are a
"waste
of everyone's time"

ha ha ha
Durbin you make me laugh when you get excited...


Eddie Runner

And I guess you didn't read where I said that's where converters come
into
play.

And you didnt read where I said Adapters suck compared to
high end head units that dont need no stinkin adapters...

Yeah? How come?


My point was that it's still a preamp signal.

depends on how you define pre-amp signal!!

How about: a signal that has not gone through power amplification. Not that
it matters anyway. The signal coming out of power amplifiers is clean
(unless the signal is so tiny that it's comparable to the magnitude of
asymmetries of the OPS or so large that the product is clipping).

Some definitions could defins ANYTHING as a pre amp signal.
My point is these piece of crap radios are not designed to
work with most of our aftermarket amplifiers and yet most of
the high end headunits on the aftermarket ARE!

Explain what you mean by "designed to work with". A radio with the right
converter is "designed to work with" the aftermarket amplifier.


That's why I said you
can tap into many of them with converters.

**** Mark, you can RIG anything to work with ANYTHING
but it prolly wont sound as good as something that doesnt
need to be RIGGED....

What makes you say that?


Sometimes using an adapter is worth the extra money and extra
installation
hassle if you want to keep the stock unit for other reasons. In most
cases,
there's not a significant decline in performance.

Right, alot of customers just dont like the look of the aftermarket
radio, maybe they feel like it will be stolen, maybe they dont feel it
will look right in thier car... sure there are lots of folks that prefer
the factory stereo for many reasons... But SOUND QUALITY is
rarely one of them!!

I never said superior sound quality was their goal. I said that sound
quality usually does not suffer.


It's not amplified with a power amplifier.

there must be a blanced amp of some sort!!
you mean there is no SEPERATE AMPLIFIER and therefor
it MUST be a pre-amp???

No, I mean that it doesn't pass through a traditional 3-stage power
amplifier.


Yes, all preout signals
(including the ones from aftermarket units) are technically "amplified".
I
think you know what I meant.

Well a balanced out uses a push pull signal...
thats HALF the info on one lead and half the signal on another lead..
your typical HI/LO convertor or adapter will use ONLY HALF
the signal and send the other half into a resistor to fool it so it
doesnt go balistic....

Some do.


Is this a HIGH END way of deriving a signal for your RCA
amplifier??? Hooking this directly to your RCA amplifier would
short the one wire direct to ground possibly damaging the output
of the headunit...

In the old days we called RCA amps AMPLIFIERS
and we called amps that hooked into balanced line BOOSTERS!
Everyone know boosters sucked!
and still do in relation to a properly matched RCA amp
(or a rare balanced line amp)

It doesn't really matter what you call it. You can use just about any
signal that's converted the right way (either through dedicated converters
or simple attenuators, depending on the signal) without adding a significant
level of noise or distortion.




In addition, there are even DAC
units that are starting to hit the market for those OEM units that
use a
data protocol.

Just what does that help in relation to upgrading the system??
Well, if you want to add aftermarket amplifiers then using those units
are
the best option. That's what it helps.

Which units are these exactly???
And what advantages are there to them??

The advantages are that you get to keep your original radio.


Its just MARKETING BULL****!! (for the most part)
Im suprised you fell for it Mark....

Some of the OEM radios are perfectly fine. They offer a low enough
level of
noise and distortion to be able to compete with aftermarket units. In
my
recent setup, I opted to keep the Bose radio rather than install the
Nakamichi or Eclipse head units that I have in my closet because,
frankly,
it's a better unit than the Nak and has better features than the
Eclipse.

Well Nak units of late really do suck, the lights arent bright, the
controls
are laid out badly, the features are few , they wont play many CDs you
make yourself and the reliability is awfull..... I dont blame you
there.....

The factory radios many times have steering wheel controls or the dash
molds around it, so many folks GIVE UP some possible sound quallity
improvements by deciding to keep the factory radio.... Its YOUR
choice... But certainly not the choice of a real audio purist....

You've yet to provide any evidence that there's a significant degradation in
sound quality. Levels of noise and distortion in most converters are too
low to be significant, and levels of noise and distortion in the radios
themselves are nonexistent.

I'll say it, just plug it it!




Paul Vina




"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Hey Pete

If you email me i will tell you how to make an Alpine 6 disc changer
work with your factory radio without use of any adpators


Why not just say it on here? This is an information group about all
things
car audio. I'm sure this guy isn't the only one who wants to know.

the Alpine changer IS NOT perfectly compatable
with a Honda and will not work correctly if you just
plug it in... The majority of the older hondas are
close and do sort of work but one channel is out of
phase when you do this... the inexpensive adapter
will right the phase problem so it sounds right...
Some of the newer hondas use more sofisticated
and more expensive adapters with protocol convertors
in em so they can work with Alpine changers...

DONT just plug it in!

Paul Vina wrote:

I'll say it, just plug it it!

Paul Vina

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Hey Pete

If you email me i will tell you how to make an Alpine 6 disc changer
work with your factory radio without use of any adpators


Why not just say it on here? This is an information group about all
things
car audio. I'm sure this guy isn't the only one who wants to know.

Mark Zarella wrote:

depends on how you define pre-amp signal!!

How about: a signal that has not gone through power amplification.

but it has!
My definition is better.
*A signal that is ready to go on to final amplification!*

And the factory signal is RARELY ready for our aftermarket
amplifier!

Not that
it matters anyway. The signal coming out of power amplifiers is clean
(unless the signal is so tiny that it's comparable to the magnitude of
asymmetries of the OPS or so large that the product is clipping).

You really think its clean when you only use HALF the push pull line?

Explain what you mean by "designed to work with". A radio with the right
converter is "designed to work with" the aftermarket amplifier.

No,
the factory radios are specificly designed to NOT LET US
add a factory amplifier.... When you use an adapter you RIG
the thing so it will limp along and sort of work!
ha ha ha

I never said superior sound quality was their goal. I said that sound
quality usually does not suffer.

You might be right if you said most folks wont notice it...
but there are folks that easily CAN notice it.
If you did an A/B switch I think even you could notice it.
but there is never an A/B in this type system so the average
joe will probably never notice it is not as clean as it can be,

No, I mean that it doesn't pass through a traditional 3-stage power
amplifier.

Does a head unit speaker output pass through a traditional
3 stage power amplifier??? NO!
I wouldnt call it PRE-AMP signal...
I like my definition better
*A signal that is ready to go on to final amplification!*

Well a balanced out uses a push pull signal...
thats HALF the info on one lead and half the signal on another lead..
your typical HI/LO convertor or adapter will use ONLY HALF
the signal and send the other half into a resistor to fool it so it
doesnt go balistic....

Some do.

Name some that dont?!?!

It doesn't really matter what you call it.

it seems to bother you when I call it NOT HIGH END..
ha ha ha

You can use just about any
signal that's converted the right way (either through dedicated converters
or simple attenuators, depending on the signal) without adding a significant
level of noise or distortion.

Significant is relative to how bad you wanna keep your factory headunit
and how little you desire the best sound quality possible.

Which units are these exactly???
And what advantages are there to them??

The advantages are that you get to keep your original radio.

And again I ask WHICH UNITS ARE THESE!!??
I have been installing a long long time and still dont think I know
which factory units you are refering to... Are they FICTIONAL????

You've yet to provide any evidence that there's a significant degradation in
sound quality.

Again I say,
Significant is relative to how bad you wanna keep your factory headunit
and how little you desire the best sound quality possible.
If you like it in your car I guess thats OK....


Levels of noise and distortion in most converters are too
low to be significant, and levels of noise and distortion in the radios
themselves are nonexistent.

Bull**** Mark!
You have a balanced line out, it is a push pull amp making this
balanced line signal and you just LOOSE ONE LEG ENTIRELY!
and expect it to be OK...???

Can you display a push pull sine wave on a scope?
Can you display only one of the wires referenced to ground on the scope?
Does half the signal look like the same clean sine wave???

Of course there are resistors in the highlo convertor so your
headunit doesnt **** all overitself before it burns up, and you say
there is no distortion...

ha ha ha

But, I am in agreement that most folks would never hear it...

John Durbin wrote:

Why do you say that? Some of the better OEM radios have more accurate
equalization,

Some of them claim to have better EQ, made for that particular
cars and so on... But thats taking crap and making it the best it can
be...

Bose for instance goes to great extreems to EQ each little amplifier to
drive each of those little 4 inch speakers to make a pretty good sound.
Looking at what they have achived is really quite remarkable!
for 4 inch speakers it is amazing...

But !!!!!!!
Your average low life installer can whip those little 4 inchers outa
there
and get a noticably better sound with a 61/2 inch speaker with none of
the fancy bull**** that BOSE went through in the lab to make that 4 inch

sound as good as it could...

So, BOSE works hard to make the 4 inch sound good.
Any installer can make it sound better with hardly any effort at all.

better S/N, and are more reliable -

Reliability I might agree with you on. Factory radios do last a long
time.

and they use basically the same tape or CD mechanisms.

Agreed, nothing special but as average as most of the aftermarket
stuff out there.

but the main thing is that aftermarket decks are easy for the DIY to
work with, they have standard connections and "normal" output levels
and architecture.

It does make them more easily adaptable to what most folks
consider a high end system than a factory headunit... Which was my
original
point...


Eddie Runner

depends on how you define pre-amp signal!!

How about: a signal that has not gone through power amplification.

but it has!
My definition is better.
*A signal that is ready to go on to final amplification!*

Oh, you mean power amplification? Looks like we just said the same thing.

And the factory signal is RARELY ready for our aftermarket
amplifier!

With the converter, it's ready. They're really not all that
cost-prohibitive or difficult to install. You're treating them as if
they're not even an option. Not sure why.


Not that
it matters anyway. The signal coming out of power amplifiers is clean
(unless the signal is so tiny that it's comparable to the magnitude of
asymmetries of the OPS or so large that the product is clipping).

You really think its clean when you only use HALF the push pull line?

Yep. The distortion and noise measurements I've made are perfectly clean.
Betcha you couldn't tell the difference.


Explain what you mean by "designed to work with". A radio with the
right
converter is "designed to work with" the aftermarket amplifier.

No,
the factory radios are specificly designed to NOT LET US
add a factory amplifier.... When you use an adapter you RIG
the thing so it will limp along and sort of work!
ha ha ha

The aftermarket manufacturers really have you fooled. Why don't you take
your fancy equipment and bench test the stuff yourself? I'm surprised you
haven't done it already.


I never said superior sound quality was their goal. I said that sound
quality usually does not suffer.

You might be right if you said most folks wont notice it...
but there are folks that easily CAN notice it.
If you did an A/B switch I think even you could notice it.

I have. And I posted it on here over a year ago. It was a blind test with
3 different participants. I tested 4 level-matched aftermarket head units
and the stock. There was no difference.


but there is never an A/B in this type system so the average
joe will probably never notice it is not as clean as it can be,

No, I mean that it doesn't pass through a traditional 3-stage power
amplifier.

Does a head unit speaker output pass through a traditional
3 stage power amplifier??? NO!

Yes.

You can use just about any
signal that's converted the right way (either through dedicated
converters
or simple attenuators, depending on the signal) without adding a
significant
level of noise or distortion.

Significant is relative to how bad you wanna keep your factory headunit
and how little you desire the best sound quality possible.

No, "significant" has a specific meaning. In this case, we're talking about
what is and what isn't detectable by humans. If it's detectable by humans,
then I'd call it significant.


Which units are these exactly???
And what advantages are there to them??

The advantages are that you get to keep your original radio.

And again I ask WHICH UNITS ARE THESE!!??
I have been installing a long long time and still dont think I know
which factory units you are refering to... Are they FICTIONAL????

I believe all four manufacturers I named earlier make these units. Not for
all cars, but I know for a fact that they exist for 2003 Escalades. And
others. Go to the websites and you'll find them.

Mark Zarella wrote:

How about: a signal that has not gone through power amplification.

but it has!
My definition is better.
*A signal that is ready to go on to final amplification!*

Oh, you mean power amplification? Looks like we just said the same thing.

Doesnt look the same to me... I guess you can take it any
way you want...

And the factory signal is RARELY ready for our aftermarket
amplifier!

With the converter, it's ready. They're really not all that
cost-prohibitive or difficult to install. You're treating them as if
they're not even an option. Not sure why.

Oh, we use em all the time.... We use em to make the crap headunits
compatable with the amps we sell... I never said I didnt use em, I have
just been saying it would be better if we didnt have to use em.

You really think its clean when you only use HALF the push pull line?

Yep. The distortion and noise measurements I've made are perfectly clean.
Betcha you couldn't tell the difference.

I hav seen times when I certainly could tell the difference!!

No,
the factory radios are specificly designed to NOT LET US
add a factory amplifier.... When you use an adapter you RIG
the thing so it will limp along and sort of work!
ha ha ha

The aftermarket manufacturers really have you fooled. Why don't you take
your fancy equipment and bench test the stuff yourself? I'm surprised you
haven't done it already.

I have , I have! trust me I have!

Your just ****ed that I said using a factory headunit sucks
and youadmit to using one ... ha ha ha

Hell Mark, it might be OK for you.... ha ha

I have. And I posted it on here over a year ago. It was a blind test with
3 different participants.

How did you find that many blind guys in one place?

I tested 4 level-matched aftermarket head units
and the stock. There was no difference.

OK, so you cant hear it, it still sucks to have to use an adapter
as opposed to a head units thats made for it.

Which units are these exactly???
And what advantages are there to them??

The advantages are that you get to keep your original radio.

And again I ask WHICH UNITS ARE THESE!!??
I have been installing a long long time and still dont think I know
which factory units you are refering to... Are they FICTIONAL????

I believe all four manufacturers I named earlier make these units. Not for
all cars, but I know for a fact that they exist for 2003 Escalades. And
others. Go to the websites and you'll find them.

????
can you explain this alittle more or are you trying to avoid the whole thing?
Why would a 2003 Escalade radio be any good???

Eddie

With the converter, it's ready. They're really not all that
cost-prohibitive or difficult to install. You're treating them as if
they're not even an option. Not sure why.

Oh, we use em all the time.... We use em to make the crap headunits
compatable with the amps we sell... I never said I didnt use em, I have
just been saying it would be better if we didnt have to use em.

So it's easy for your installers. I see.


You really think its clean when you only use HALF the push pull line?

Yep. The distortion and noise measurements I've made are perfectly
clean.
Betcha you couldn't tell the difference.

I hav seen times when I certainly could tell the difference!!

Then you were either dealing with poor converters, poor head units, or a
poor installation. I know of several converters and head units that aren't
poor.


The aftermarket manufacturers really have you fooled. Why don't you
take
your fancy equipment and bench test the stuff yourself? I'm surprised
you
haven't done it already.

I have , I have! trust me I have!

Your just ****ed that I said using a factory headunit sucks
and youadmit to using one ... ha ha ha

Hell Mark, it might be OK for you.... ha ha

I'm not ****ed about anything. I'm puzzled by your assertions and why you
refuse to back them up with evidence. Others reading this will see right
through you.


I have. And I posted it on here over a year ago. It was a blind test
with
3 different participants.

How did you find that many blind guys in one place?

I tested 4 level-matched aftermarket head units
and the stock. There was no difference.

OK, so you cant hear it, it still sucks to have to use an adapter
as opposed to a head units thats made for it.

Why does it suck? More work for the installers? Gotta keep you guys busy
doing something!


I believe all four manufacturers I named earlier make these units. Not
for
all cars, but I know for a fact that they exist for 2003 Escalades. And
others. Go to the websites and you'll find them.

????
can you explain this alittle more or are you trying to avoid the whole
thing?
Why would a 2003 Escalade radio be any good???

Why would it be bad? What makes it inferior?

Mark Zarella wrote:

So it's easy for your installers. I see.

Sure, anythings easy for my installers!
After all I trined em...
But I still prefer many aftermarket units to most factory untis!

Then you were either dealing with poor converters, poor head units, or a
poor installation. I know of several converters and head units that aren't
poor.

wel tell us about them and how they are so different..

Hell Mark, it might be OK for you.... ha ha

I'm not ****ed about anything. I'm puzzled by your assertions and why you
refuse to back them up with evidence. Others reading this will see right
through you.

I can back up anything with evedence when I have to
You know how many times during an arguement I whip out the
test equipments and cameras and make a web page about it.
You know me....

OK, so you cant hear it, it still sucks to have to use an adapter
as opposed to a head units thats made for it.

Why does it suck?

It sucks for the consumers that buy cars with the expectations that
they can add to the stereo or make it better easily... I dont know how
many times customers were dissapointed that they had to modify
or buy a convertor or (EXTRA EXPENSE) to add to the stereo...
IT SUCKS that the car manufacturers try so hard to keep the customer
from adding to the car stereo....
IT SUCKS that they change the CD changer protocals so that the
customers have to buy the $1200 cd changer!!
IT SUCKS they try to mould the dash with the radio so the
customer cant easily change it....


More work for the installers? Gotta keep you guys busy
doing something!

Sure, we make money cause we can do these installs and
we even make money selling the kits and adapters. But I am
saying it sucks from a customer point of view...

I believe all four manufacturers I named earlier make these units. Not
for
all cars, but I know for a fact that they exist for 2003 Escalades. And
others. Go to the websites and you'll find them.

????
can you explain this alittle more or are you trying to avoid the whole
thing?
Why would a 2003 Escalade radio be any good???

Why would it be bad? What makes it inferior?

WAIT!
You made a claim something about the DAC somethign or other in some
headunits... This eveolved from that, and I am still wondering what your
talking about ??? The more questions I ask the harder you seem
to be avaoiding the question... Were you just making it up or what??

You finally mention an Escalade radio... Why is it any better than any
other Factory radio?? Does it have some special digital interface or
some special flux capacitor??

I can tell you the excalade radio SUCKS!
Its a class 2 databuss radio that has air bag parts as well as
door chime stuff in it, which means if you wanna take the radio
out and put something else in you either have to relocate the
radio to another spot and wire it so you can retain these features
while putting the new radio in its place, or buy some expensive adapters
to take the place of the missing circuitry.... THAT SUCKS!
The manufacturer did that so that folks would be DETERED from
replacing the radio with something else! THAT SUCKS!!

And you like it???


Eddie Runner

I agree with you on that part, it's criminal how ****-poor those
over-hyped Blose OEM systems are.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Right, typicly the factory radios are engineered for
reliability and EASE OF USE!! (I dont think anyone mentioned
that yet, but factory radios are something your grandma can use
as opposed to many aftermarket headunits that do so many
things when you push one button and hold it while pushing
two other buttons---- even Im lost)....

But there are some problems with some factorys, the BOSE
amp crackle comes to mind, I see so many of those little bose
amps go bad it makes me thing ALL of them are bad....Im sure
we only see a small percetage but it sure makes folks angry
when we tell em they all do that....

Customer walks in and says their stereo is making a crackling
sound, I ask if they have a BOSE system and they say
HOW DID YOU KNOW???

John Durbin wrote:

That wasn't me being "excited" ... trust me, you'll know if that
happens.

I will admit I haven't had my hands on near as many aftermarket decks
as you since I retired, BUT at that point in time, you had to go damn
near to the top of the line aftermarket HU to get performance better
than many OEM units, in the areas of build quality, tuner
performance, reliability etc... a lot of the entry leve aftermarket
stuff, even from big brands like Sony and Pioneer, was TRASH! How
many millions of detachable panel tact switches have broken since
they launched detachable face? How many of these things can't tune AM
to save their lives? How many of them have lousy tone adjustment
sections?

Alpine may be a little better, same with Eclipse - just from a SQ
point of view their entry level decks seemed better. But Pioneer,
Sony, Kenwood - yuck! Until you went up to their top of the line or
one of the higher priced units in their premium brand, the stuff was
crap.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



I was talking about the changer, actually...


the changer is OK.... I guess....
Actually not alot of folks want changers nowdays!
Folks finally realized parking the car and opening the trunk
everytime they want to change CDs really sucks!!

Nowdays with MP3s alot of folks would rather just forget about the
changer.



there's a ton of stuff in the world with RCA's that blows chunks.


We were talking about Alpine I think.... Are there any Alpine units
that
"BLOW CHUNKS" ???



JD
and you're hardly one to judge whether my comments here are a "waste
of everyone's time"


ha ha ha
Durbin you make me laugh when you get excited...


Eddie Runner

I wasn't talking about vehicle specific equalization, but basic tone
controls... I thik a lot of the OEM guys use better IC's for this than
lower end aftermarket - sounds more accurate to me. Bose excluded that is...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



Why do you say that? Some of the better OEM radios have more accurate
equalization,



Some of them claim to have better EQ, made for that particular
cars and so on... But thats taking crap and making it the best it can
be...

Bose for instance goes to great extreems to EQ each little amplifier to
drive each of those little 4 inch speakers to make a pretty good sound.
Looking at what they have achived is really quite remarkable!
for 4 inch speakers it is amazing...

But !!!!!!!
Your average low life installer can whip those little 4 inchers outa
there
and get a noticably better sound with a 61/2 inch speaker with none of
the fancy bull**** that BOSE went through in the lab to make that 4 inch

sound as good as it could...

So, BOSE works hard to make the 4 inch sound good.
Any installer can make it sound better with hardly any effort at all.



better S/N, and are more reliable -



Reliability I might agree with you on. Factory radios do last a long
time.



and they use basically the same tape or CD mechanisms.



Agreed, nothing special but as average as most of the aftermarket
stuff out there.



but the main thing is that aftermarket decks are easy for the DIY to
work with, they have standard connections and "normal" output levels
and architecture.



It does make them more easily adaptable to what most folks
consider a high end system than a factory headunit... Which was my
original
point...


Eddie Runner

And that channel that's out of phase will usually save you the time and
efort of switching it yourself. But with all the phase problems in most
Hondas anyway flipping one channel usually doesn't make any difference in
the sound. I used to just go in there and reverse the leads myself. On
any of the newer units that HAVE to use an adapter I believe the connector
is different anyway so it wouldn't just plug in.



Paul Vina




"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
the Alpine changer IS NOT perfectly compatable
with a Honda and will not work correctly if you just
plug it in... The majority of the older hondas are
close and do sort of work but one channel is out of
phase when you do this... the inexpensive adapter
will right the phase problem so it sounds right...
Some of the newer hondas use more sofisticated
and more expensive adapters with protocol convertors
in em so they can work with Alpine changers...

DONT just plug it in!

Paul Vina wrote:

I'll say it, just plug it it!

Paul Vina

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Hey Pete

If you email me i will tell you how to make an Alpine 6 disc
changer
work with your factory radio without use of any adpators


Why not just say it on here? This is an information group about all
things
car audio. I'm sure this guy isn't the only one who wants to know.

I think that could be debateable...But there are so
many EQ schemes on both Factory headunits as well as
aftermarket headunits... Im not sure I would want to
try to argue the EQ variable on either side... I kind of
prefer the easier to operate stuff....

Eddie

John Durbin wrote:

I wasn't talking about vehicle specific equalization, but basic tone
controls... I thik a lot of the OEM guys use better IC's for this than
lower end aftermarket - sounds more accurate to me. Bose excluded that
is...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:


Why do you say that? Some of the better OEM radios have more
accurate
equalization,

Some of them claim to have better EQ, made for that particular
cars and so on... But thats taking crap and making it the best it
can
be...

Bose for instance goes to great extreems to EQ each little amplifier
to
drive each of those little 4 inch speakers to make a pretty good
sound.
Looking at what they have achived is really quite remarkable!
for 4 inch speakers it is amazing...

But !!!!!!!
Your average low life installer can whip those little 4 inchers outa
there
and get a noticably better sound with a 61/2 inch speaker with none
of
the fancy bull**** that BOSE went through in the lab to make that 4
inch

sound as good as it could...

So, BOSE works hard to make the 4 inch sound good.
Any installer can make it sound better with hardly any effort at
all.


better S/N, and are more reliable -

Reliability I might agree with you on. Factory radios do last a
long
time.


and they use basically the same tape or CD mechanisms.

Agreed, nothing special but as average as most of the aftermarket
stuff out there.


but the main thing is that aftermarket decks are easy for the DIY
to
work with, they have standard connections and "normal" output
levels
and architecture.

It does make them more easily adaptable to what most folks
consider a high end system than a factory headunit... Which was my
original
point...


Eddie Runner