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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
What is the theoretically highest possible:
1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? |
#2
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote:
What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Based on what PCM audio? Red Book? DVD-A? Some arbitrary, non-standard interconnect? The main system bus of a computer that processes said PCM audio? Since one can (and does) use PCM at all levels and scales of physical analysis (electron microscopy, earthquake analysis, radar, etc), then the limitations are going to come from what you define to be "audio", in the context of "PCM audio". Once you define your terms, the answers to all of your questions can be simply derived. 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? -- Andrew |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote:
What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Based on what PCM audio? Red Book? DVD-A? Some arbitrary, non-standard interconnect? The main system bus of a computer that processes said PCM audio? Since one can (and does) use PCM at all levels and scales of physical analysis (electron microscopy, earthquake analysis, radar, etc), then the limitations are going to come from what you define to be "audio", in the context of "PCM audio". Once you define your terms, the answers to all of your questions can be simply derived. 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? -- Andrew |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Radium wrote:
What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? Google up "Shannon Theorem". -- Les Cargill |
#5
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Radium wrote:
What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? Google up "Shannon Theorem". -- Les Cargill |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
In article , Les Cargill at
wrote on 11/09/2003 18:47: Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) DC to just under 1/2 of the sampling frequency (what we normally call the "Nyquist Frequency"). 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range depends on what kind of "S" that is being compared to what kind of "N". if the assumption is that S and N have the same kind of qualitative statistics (say, both having uniform p.d.f.), then the SNR in dB + dB of headroom (which is what i would normally think is dB of dynamic range) is 6.02 dB per bit of PCM word width. 4. SPL depends on how high you crank up your volume knob. has nothing to do with PCM or whatever else the audio is. 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) theoretically, just below the Nyquist frequency divided by the index of the highest harmonic of the musical note. of PCM audio? Google up "Shannon Theorem". good advice, Les. also maybe Google "Shannon Information Theory" to get the low-down on bits vs. dB. r b-j |
#8
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Andrew Reilly wrote in message . home...
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Based on what PCM audio? Red Book? DVD-A? Some arbitrary, non-standard interconnect? The main system bus of a computer that processes said PCM audio? Since one can (and does) use PCM at all levels and scales of physical analysis (electron microscopy, earthquake analysis, radar, etc), then the limitations are going to come from what you define to be "audio", in the context of "PCM audio". Once you define your terms, the answers to all of your questions can be simply derived. Sorry, but he DID define his terms. "PCM audio," meaning "pulse code modulation audio" is sufficiently unambiguous to answer his question. We don't have to know DVD, red book or anything else. 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) The maximum bandwidth possible without the introduction of unwanted artifacts must be less than 1/2 the sampling rate. 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range The two are equivalent when the signal is the maximum undistorted signal the medium can accept. In such a case, the dynamic range, as defined as the ratio between the smallest unmabiguously encodable sample measured over the bandwidth of the system and the maximum undistorted signal is approximately 6.02 dB per bit. 4. SPL Sorry, SPL is irrelevant, because it includes factors not relevant to the PCM process, such as amplifier gain, loudspeaker efficiency, distance from the speaker, and any other factors that has nothing to do with "PCM" 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) Sorry, but this is a case where your use of the terminology is murky. "pitch" is defined as the psychoacoustic perception as it relates to the frequency of a tone. As to the highest possible frequency, assuming base-band usage, is simply less than 1/2 the sampling rate. |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Andrew Reilly wrote in message . home...
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Based on what PCM audio? Red Book? DVD-A? Some arbitrary, non-standard interconnect? The main system bus of a computer that processes said PCM audio? Since one can (and does) use PCM at all levels and scales of physical analysis (electron microscopy, earthquake analysis, radar, etc), then the limitations are going to come from what you define to be "audio", in the context of "PCM audio". Once you define your terms, the answers to all of your questions can be simply derived. Sorry, but he DID define his terms. "PCM audio," meaning "pulse code modulation audio" is sufficiently unambiguous to answer his question. We don't have to know DVD, red book or anything else. 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) The maximum bandwidth possible without the introduction of unwanted artifacts must be less than 1/2 the sampling rate. 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range The two are equivalent when the signal is the maximum undistorted signal the medium can accept. In such a case, the dynamic range, as defined as the ratio between the smallest unmabiguously encodable sample measured over the bandwidth of the system and the maximum undistorted signal is approximately 6.02 dB per bit. 4. SPL Sorry, SPL is irrelevant, because it includes factors not relevant to the PCM process, such as amplifier gain, loudspeaker efficiency, distance from the speaker, and any other factors that has nothing to do with "PCM" 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) Sorry, but this is a case where your use of the terminology is murky. "pitch" is defined as the psychoacoustic perception as it relates to the frequency of a tone. As to the highest possible frequency, assuming base-band usage, is simply less than 1/2 the sampling rate. |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Andrew Reilly wrote in message . home...
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Sampling rate = 2(highest frequency) Bit resolution = dynamic range/2 bytes per second = information per time The high sample rate and bit resolution the better the audio quality. The shortest amount of time is 10^-43 second. What is the maximum # of bits that can squeezed into this sml amt of time? |
#11
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Andrew Reilly wrote in message . home...
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:45:19 -0800, Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: Based on what theory? Sampling rate = 2(highest frequency) Bit resolution = dynamic range/2 bytes per second = information per time The high sample rate and bit resolution the better the audio quality. The shortest amount of time is 10^-43 second. What is the maximum # of bits that can squeezed into this sml amt of time? |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
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#18
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Radium" wrote in message
om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... 2. SNR unlimited. You got the bits... 3. Dynamic Range unlimited. You got the bits... 4. SPL unlimited but irrlevant. You got the bits... 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) unlimited of PCM audio? |
#19
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Radium" wrote in message
om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... 2. SNR unlimited. You got the bits... 3. Dynamic Range unlimited. You got the bits... 4. SPL unlimited but irrlevant. You got the bits... 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) unlimited of PCM audio? |
#20
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#21
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#22
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Radium" wrote in message om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... Unlimited frequency response just by adding bits? Surely not to the word length! One could argue that doubling the sample rate doubles the number of bits, but it doesn't seem you meant that. ... Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
#23
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Radium" wrote in message om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... Unlimited frequency response just by adding bits? Surely not to the word length! One could argue that doubling the sample rate doubles the number of bits, but it doesn't seem you meant that. ... Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
If I am given a 16-bit fixed-point number of uniform quantization, I
can surely say that the maximum theoritic dynamic range I can get is 96.329 dB (assuming a voltage ratio and an constant impedance). If I am told the sampling rate is a uniform 8 KHz, I can say that the maximum unaliased frequency I can derive is theoritically, less than 4 KHz. Rather than say there is no therotical limit, let's just say we don't have enough information to determine the limit. Maurice Givens Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote in message ... Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#25
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
If I am given a 16-bit fixed-point number of uniform quantization, I
can surely say that the maximum theoritic dynamic range I can get is 96.329 dB (assuming a voltage ratio and an constant impedance). If I am told the sampling rate is a uniform 8 KHz, I can say that the maximum unaliased frequency I can derive is theoritically, less than 4 KHz. Rather than say there is no therotical limit, let's just say we don't have enough information to determine the limit. Maurice Givens Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote in message ... Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#26
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com Maurice Givens wrote: If I am given a 16-bit fixed-point number of uniform quantization, I can surely say that the maximum theoritic dynamic range I can get is 96.329 dB (assuming a voltage ratio and an constant impedance). If I am told the sampling rate is a uniform 8 KHz, I can say that the maximum unaliased frequency I can derive is theoritically, less than 4 KHz. Rather than say there is no therotical limit, let's just say we don't have enough information to determine the limit. Maurice Givens Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote in message ... Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#27
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com Maurice Givens wrote: If I am given a 16-bit fixed-point number of uniform quantization, I can surely say that the maximum theoritic dynamic range I can get is 96.329 dB (assuming a voltage ratio and an constant impedance). If I am told the sampling rate is a uniform 8 KHz, I can say that the maximum unaliased frequency I can derive is theoritically, less than 4 KHz. Rather than say there is no therotical limit, let's just say we don't have enough information to determine the limit. Maurice Givens Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote in message ... Radium wrote: What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) 2. SNR 3. Dynamic Range 4. SPL 5. Musical Pitch (highest acceptable frequency) of PCM audio? There is no theoretical limit. However there are different standards which specify the performance, and the different hardware limitations. The today's state of art in the pro audio is ~24kHz, ~120dB, ~0.0005% THD. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |
#28
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! |
#29
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! |
#30
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:06:02 GMT, malcolm wrote:
"Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! Not if you declare your 8kHz system to have infinite (or at least arbitrarily large) SNR (by making the number of bits per sample arbitrarily large). -- Andrew |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:06:02 GMT, malcolm wrote:
"Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! Not if you declare your 8kHz system to have infinite (or at least arbitrarily large) SNR (by making the number of bits per sample arbitrarily large). -- Andrew |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:06:02 GMT, "malcolm"
wrote: "Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! Not if you shape it so that most of it is outside the audio band. That's how SACD works, and indeed it has very poor dynamic range above 20kHz. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:06:02 GMT, "malcolm"
wrote: "Vladimir Vassilevsky" wrote in message ... Nope. If you are given even a 1-bit quantization, you can have any dynamic range by multiple oversampling. If the sample rate is 8 kHz, you can have multiple channels combined into one stream of any bandwidth. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com wont the noise start adding up as well and ruin the SNR ! Not if you shape it so that most of it is outside the audio band. That's how SACD works, and indeed it has very poor dynamic range above 20kHz. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Radium" wrote in message om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... Unlimited frequency response just by adding bits? Surely not to the word length! One could argue that doubling the sample rate doubles the number of bits, but it doesn't seem you meant that. It's exactly what I meant. |
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Theoretically Highest Quality of PCM Audio
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Radium" wrote in message om What is the theoretically highest possible: 1. Frequency Response (range of frequencies) unlimited. You got the bits... Unlimited frequency response just by adding bits? Surely not to the word length! One could argue that doubling the sample rate doubles the number of bits, but it doesn't seem you meant that. It's exactly what I meant. |
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