Amp for Sennheiser 580s?

Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580 headphones
that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere that they need amps
to work properly on cd players, computers, and other equipment. Most of the
headphone's use will be on my computer when I am at the university listening
to music, movies and games. So I was wondering if anyone can recommend an
amp to get? I don't want to spend too much money, but then again I don't
want to buy a piece of junk. So if anyone can recommend an amp I'd really
appreciate it. Thanks in advance,
Steve

"Steve" > wrote in message


> Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
> headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
> that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
> other equipment.

You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's needing
headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their impedance is about
10 times that of most other phones. IME, high impedance or not, I plug
them into standard headphone jacks all over the place and just work.

Let's go down a partial list of places I use my 580s

- The headphone jack on the little integrated amp I use with my TV
- Nomad 2
- Nomad Jukebox 3
- Panasonic portable CD player
- RCA cassette/FM (recent power outage)
- SoundBlaster Audigy OEM (low output) sound card in this PC
- Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card in another PC
- LynxTWO sound card


>Most of the headphone's use will be on my computer
> when I am at the university listening to music, movies and games. So
> I was wondering if anyone can recommend an amp to get?

IME headphone amps are needed with 580's in only exceptional cases.

And hey, I'm not speaking from total ignorance here. I have a Rane headphone
amp but it just isn't necessary with most of my uses of the 580

>I don't want
> to spend too much money, but then again I don't want to buy a piece
> of junk. So if anyone can recommend an amp I'd really appreciate it.

Before you spend money you don't need to spend, plug 'em in and see how they
work for you.

I like things on the loud side, and I use my 580s with every kind of device
you've mentioned, all by themselves.

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Steve" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
> > headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
> > that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
> > other equipment.
>
> You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's needing
> headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their impedance is about
> 10 times that of most other phones. IME, high impedance or not, I plug
> them into standard headphone jacks all over the place and just work.
>
I use them also.
They will probably work with most AC powered items.
They are definitely not sensitive enough for CD and Walkmans.
Arny, how do you manage to get enough output out of that RCA? Is it a 4 AA
unit?

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message


> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...

>> "Steve" > wrote in message
>>

>>> Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
>>> headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
>>> that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
>>> other equipment.

>> You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's
>> needing headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their
>> impedance is about 10 times that of most other phones. IME, high
>> impedance or not, I plug them into standard headphone jacks all
>> over the place and just work.

> I use them also.

> They will probably work with most AC powered items.

Agreed.

> They are definitely not sensitive enough for CD and Walkmans.

Robert, I can't deny you your perceptions in matters like this, but I'm
still scratching my head. When I hand people headphones I've been listening
to, I either knock the volume down quite a bit or they complain about how
loud they are.

> Arny, how do you manage to get enough output out of that RCA?

Turn down the volume, a fair amount. I was amazed at how loud it could get.

>Is it a 4 AA unit?

Nope, just 2 AA.

Now for something really strange, consider my Nomad 2: It runs on 1 AA.

I will admit that my NJB3 cranks pretty nice with the 5 volt Lithium cell,
but it doesn't get as loud as that crappy little RCA I was using to listen
to FM when the power was out.

I must have the most sensitive 580s ever made. I dunno, got 'em cheap &
factory sealed on eBay. But look at the list of phones I routinely use and
what I use them with. Seems like a lot of territory gets covered.

I think that the best strategy for Steve is for him to wait until he gets
the phones, listen to them for a while, and then take what he thinks is the
appropriate action.

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>

<snip>

> I think that the best strategy for Steve is for him to wait until he gets
> the phones, listen to them for a while, and then take what he thinks is
the
> appropriate action.

Agreed. I have the 580's and the Grado SR60's, and have found the SR60's to
work somewhat better on certain applications (PC sound cards, portable disc
players). However, I wouldn't invest in a headphone amp unless I could try
it and return it if the sound improvement wasn't noticeable.

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >> "Steve" > wrote in message
> >>
>
> >>> Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
> >>> headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
> >>> that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
> >>> other equipment.
>
> >> You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's
> >> needing headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their
> >> impedance is about 10 times that of most other phones. IME, high
> >> impedance or not, I plug them into standard headphone jacks all
> >> over the place and just work.
>
> > I use them also.
>
> > They will probably work with most AC powered items.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > They are definitely not sensitive enough for CD and Walkmans.
>
> Robert, I can't deny you your perceptions in matters like this, but I'm
> still scratching my head. When I hand people headphones I've been
listening
> to, I either knock the volume down quite a bit or they complain about how
> loud they are.
>
> > Arny, how do you manage to get enough output out of that RCA?
>
> Turn down the volume, a fair amount. I was amazed at how loud it could
get.
>
> >Is it a 4 AA unit?
>
> Nope, just 2 AA.
>
> Now for something really strange, consider my Nomad 2: It runs on 1 AA.
>
> I will admit that my NJB3 cranks pretty nice with the 5 volt Lithium cell,
> but it doesn't get as loud as that crappy little RCA I was using to listen
> to FM when the power was out.
>
> I must have the most sensitive 580s ever made. I dunno, got 'em cheap &
> factory sealed on eBay. But look at the list of phones I routinely use and
> what I use them with. Seems like a lot of territory gets covered.
>
> I think that the best strategy for Steve is for him to wait until he gets
> the phones, listen to them for a while, and then take what he thinks is
the
> appropriate action.
>
It's not inconceivable that later model 580's might have higher sensitivity.
A friend of mine and I mutually reached the conclusion that the Sony
MDR-V600 is a better choice for portable apps.
It has much higher sensitivity than our 580 samples, and a closed back,
which is useful if you're on a noisy train.

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message


> It's not inconceivable that later model 580's might have higher
> sensitivity.

It's possible.

>A friend of mine and I mutually reached the conclusion
> that the Sony MDR-V600 is a better choice for portable apps.

As close as I've gotten to those is my Sony 7506 which are from the same
family of products, but not the same product. I believe that the common
component is the driver which is among the flattest on the market.

> It has much higher sensitivity than our 580 samples, and a closed
> back, which is useful if you're on a noisy train.

It's definitely brighter. Depending on your tastes, that's either the good
news or the bad news. IME none of the Sony MDR V600/MDR V6/MDR 7506 family
are as comfortable in the long haul as the Sennheiser 580s.

For portable listening, the value/performance/isolation leaders are IME the
Sony EX-70 ear buds, which provide a similar kind of sound. Reasonably
smooth, strong bass, pretty bright.

One hidden agenda item in any discussion of headphones and ear buds is that
the structure of the individual ear very much affects their frequency
response and comfort. A headphone that sounds smooth and balanced for one
person can easily be peaky and harsh for the next. Personal taste explains
part of it, but in fact the equipment is performing significantly
differently as well.

"Norman Schwartz" > wrote in message


> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Steve" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
>>> headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
>>> that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
>>> other equipment.
>>
>> You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's
>> needing headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their
>> impedance is about 10 times that of most other phones. IME, high
>> impedance or not, I plug them into standard headphone jacks all
>> over the place and just work.
>>
>> Let's go down a partial list of places I use my 580s
>>
>> - The headphone jack on the little integrated amp I use with my TV
>> - Nomad 2
>> - Nomad Jukebox 3
>> - Panasonic portable CD player
>> - RCA cassette/FM (recent power outage)
>> - SoundBlaster Audigy OEM (low output) sound card in this PC
>> - Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card in another PC
>> - LynxTWO sound card
>>
>>
>>> Most of the headphone's use will be on my computer
>>> when I am at the university listening to music, movies and games. So
>>> I was wondering if anyone can recommend an amp to get?
>>
>> IME headphone amps are needed with 580's in only exceptional cases.
>>
>> And hey, I'm not speaking from total ignorance here. I have a Rane
>> headphone amp but it just isn't necessary with most of my uses of
>> the 580
>>
>>> I don't want
>>> to spend too much money, but then again I don't want to buy a piece
>>> of junk. So if anyone can recommend an amp I'd really appreciate it.
>>
>> Before you spend money you don't need to spend, plug 'em in and see
>> how they work for you.
>>
>> I like things on the loud side, and I use my 580s with every kind of
>> device you've mentioned, all by themselves.

> I don't believe anyone should be listening to these, or other good
> headphones, via crappy headphone jacks.

Of course you have every right to believe what you will, but how do your
beliefs apply to others?

>They should instead by powered by a decent headphone amp receiving signal
from equipment's
> audio/tape outputs.

Which begs the question why then are so many people putting crappy headphone
jacks on relatively pricey equipment like Nomad Jukeboxes and iPods?

I've discussing this problem in another thread on rec.audio.tech, and
obtained what I find to be a key admission from another headphone amp
proponent.

There's apparently this widespread belief that turning volume controls up
much over 50% (12 o'clock) is *always* a bad thing. Ironically, half-way on
a log control is something like 20 dB or more below maximum gain, which is
quite a bit less than full output.

In fact, the usual case I've found in testing headphone jacks on personal
portable equipment is that the equipment doesn't clip or just barely clips
when the volume control is at 100%. I've seen some exceptions, but I'd go so
far as to say this is a general rule with some exceptions, rather than an
exceptional case.

Given the widespread concern about people damaging their ears with
headphones, building equipment so that 100% volume settings would correspond
to maximum practical loudness makes sense. If you leave 20 dB or reserve
gain, there's ample opportunity for people to damage their ears.

This is counter-intuitive for people experienced with most car and home
systems that often start clipping when the volume control is advanced past
about 1 or 2 o'clock.

I've run into similar feelings among people who have problems using
so-called passive preamps with CD players and power amps. Most CD players
put out 2 volts or more. Most power amps start clipping with 1.5 volts or
less input. It should always work, but you just might have to turn the
volume up to 100% (5 o'clock) to get full output. And frankly, some people
tolerate some clipping when they listen loud.

I wasn't referring to problems purely related to sufficient volume levels
and the possibility of damaged hearing, etc.. It appears to be both true
and generally accepted fact that listening via equipment headphone jacks
degrades signal quality at *any* volume level setting. Therefore a headphone
amp is the way to go when using the better Sennheiser's if you wish to take
the most advantage of your headphones.

Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Norman Schwartz" > wrote in message
>
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Steve" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi, I am looking for an amp that can go with the Sennheiser 580
> >>> headphones that I recently ordered. I have been reading somewhere
> >>> that they need amps to work properly on cd players, computers, and
> >>> other equipment.
> >>
> >> You can read all sorts of weird things. This story about 580's
> >> needing headphone amps is probably based on the fact that their
> >> impedance is about 10 times that of most other phones. IME, high
> >> impedance or not, I plug them into standard headphone jacks all
> >> over the place and just work.
> >>
> >> Let's go down a partial list of places I use my 580s
> >>
> >> - The headphone jack on the little integrated amp I use with my TV
> >> - Nomad 2
> >> - Nomad Jukebox 3
> >> - Panasonic portable CD player
> >> - RCA cassette/FM (recent power outage)
> >> - SoundBlaster Audigy OEM (low output) sound card in this PC
> >> - Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card in another PC
> >> - LynxTWO sound card
> >>
> >>
> >>> Most of the headphone's use will be on my computer
> >>> when I am at the university listening to music, movies and games. So
> >>> I was wondering if anyone can recommend an amp to get?
> >>
> >> IME headphone amps are needed with 580's in only exceptional cases.
> >>
> >> And hey, I'm not speaking from total ignorance here. I have a Rane
> >> headphone amp but it just isn't necessary with most of my uses of
> >> the 580
> >>
> >>> I don't want
> >>> to spend too much money, but then again I don't want to buy a piece
> >>> of junk. So if anyone can recommend an amp I'd really appreciate it.
> >>
> >> Before you spend money you don't need to spend, plug 'em in and see
> >> how they work for you.
> >>
> >> I like things on the loud side, and I use my 580s with every kind of
> >> device you've mentioned, all by themselves.
>
> > I don't believe anyone should be listening to these, or other good
> > headphones, via crappy headphone jacks.
>
> Of course you have every right to believe what you will, but how do your
> beliefs apply to others?
>
> >They should instead by powered by a decent headphone amp receiving
signal
> from equipment's
> > audio/tape outputs.
>
> Which begs the question why then are so many people putting crappy
headphone
> jacks on relatively pricey equipment like Nomad Jukeboxes and iPods?
>
> I've discussing this problem in another thread on rec.audio.tech, and
> obtained what I find to be a key admission from another headphone amp
> proponent.
>
> There's apparently this widespread belief that turning volume controls up
> much over 50% (12 o'clock) is *always* a bad thing. Ironically, half-way
on
> a log control is something like 20 dB or more below maximum gain, which is
> quite a bit less than full output.
>
> In fact, the usual case I've found in testing headphone jacks on personal
> portable equipment is that the equipment doesn't clip or just barely clips
> when the volume control is at 100%. I've seen some exceptions, but I'd go
so
> far as to say this is a general rule with some exceptions, rather than an
> exceptional case.
>
> Given the widespread concern about people damaging their ears with
> headphones, building equipment so that 100% volume settings would
correspond
> to maximum practical loudness makes sense. If you leave 20 dB or reserve
> gain, there's ample opportunity for people to damage their ears.
>
> This is counter-intuitive for people experienced with most car and home
> systems that often start clipping when the volume control is advanced past
> about 1 or 2 o'clock.
>
> I've run into similar feelings among people who have problems using
> so-called passive preamps with CD players and power amps. Most CD players
> put out 2 volts or more. Most power amps start clipping with 1.5 volts or
> less input. It should always work, but you just might have to turn the
> volume up to 100% (5 o'clock) to get full output. And frankly, some people
> tolerate some clipping when they listen loud.
>
>
>
>

"Norman Schwartz" > wrote in message


> I wasn't referring to problems purely related to sufficient volume
> levels and the possibility of damaged hearing, etc..

OK

> It appears to
> be both true and generally accepted fact that listening via equipment
> headphone jacks degrades signal quality at *any* volume level
> setting.

The current context is headphone jacks on equipment that is designed
primarily for use with headphones. I gave a list of of equipment in the
first post you responded to Norman (you quoted the list!) , and this
description fits just about all of them.

>Therefore a headphone amp is the way to go when using the
> better Sennheiser's if you wish to take the most advantage of your
> headphones.

Maybe it would be good to consider the technical differences between the
headphone jack on a piece of equipment that is designed primarily for use
with headphones, and those on a headphone amp, which is after all a piece of
equipment that is designed primarily for use with headphones.