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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have the
option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an
acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a roland
digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!

Thanks,

Dave


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

David Grant wrote:
I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have the
option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an
acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a roland
digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


Nobody cares what the piano sounds like, they care what the singer sounds
like. If the piano sounds a little funny or a little bit fake, it's a
lot better than the singer sounding less than perfect. Go with the good
room.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

David Grant wrote:
I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have the
option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an
acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a roland
digital piano.


Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church,


Either way it's going to be a compromise but my gut feeling is that you
could end up with a better recording in your home than in the church.
Since the piano is going to be playing out of a speaker it may not do
all that well in the church. And the church might have too long a
reverberation time for a single singing voice.

Go to your room! Experiment to find a good place for the singer. Hang up
a couple of blankets or quilts if you need to deaden a wall.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"David Grant" wrote in message


I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's
audition cd. I have the option of doing the recording in
my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an acoustic baby
grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.


Just because it is an electronic piano, doesn't eliminate the possibility of
it sounding good.

Very much depends on how it is mixed and what the speakers at church sound
like.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice
would seem to be the church,


Not so obvious if the presentation of the Roland is suboptimal.

but as I have no past
experience doing opera in my livingroom or recording
digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


One thing to watch out for is that churches as a rule are much more live
than concert halls.

The heavy reverb can be good news because the reverb may conceal some of the
differences between the Roland and a good acoustic piano.


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Laurence Payne[_2_] Laurence Payne[_2_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:31:51 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's
audition cd. I have the option of doing the recording in
my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an acoustic baby
grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.


Just because it is an electronic piano, doesn't eliminate the possibility of
it sounding good.

Very much depends on how it is mixed and what the speakers at church sound
like.



Not for this project. Opera accompaniment demands a real piano that
does all the real pianistic things. It's still just a different
animal.


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jtougas[_3_] jtougas[_3_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:13:42 -0500, "David Grant"
trained 100 monkeys to jump on the
keyboard and write:

I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have the
option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an
acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a roland
digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


I would suggest the church.
--
jtougas

"listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go" - e.e. cummings
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Laurence Payne[_2_] Laurence Payne[_2_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:19:16 -0500, jtougas
wrote:

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


I would suggest the church.


If this matters, why not get it completely right? There are more than
two rooms, two pianos in town.

Alternatively, if it's not a critical project maybe there's time to
experiment. Try both. If neither are good enough, start scouting for
other locations.
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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"David Grant" wrote ...
I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have
the option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom
with an acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


Interesting question and good reduction to the critical tradeoff decision.

As others have observed, a lot comes down to the nature of the keyboard.

Since this is the *singer's* audition recording, certainly their choice
would heavily weight any final decision. My guess would be that
the singer would prefer performing in an acoustically comfortable
space. Certainly their accompanist should also have some say,
especially if your keyboard is not a classically weighted model.

Even if the singer has little (or no) recording experience, you should
be able to lay out the tradeoffs for them as clearly as you have done
here and let them decide what is best for them.


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Keith. Keith. is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano


"David Grant" wrote in message
...
I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have
the option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom
with an acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!

Thanks,

Dave


I think that the volume of an Opera voice plus piano is going to bring out
any negative living room acoustics and I really doubt that the singer would
feel comfortable singing at the required volume in the closed in intimacy of
a living room.
An Opera audition CD should simulate as close as possible the volume and
acoustically reflective conditions of an Opera theatre. So it looks like the
Church is a close to those conditions as you will get. A sympathetic
audience will help with sound absorption and may make the singer and pianist
more at ease.
Were there any guidelines given about the recording space?.
I ask because a standardised theatre resonance would help with those that
are judging the audition.

Keith.




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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

On Dec 9, 9:25*pm, "Keith." wrote:
"David Grant" wrote in message

...

I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have
the option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom
with an acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.


Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


Thanks,


Dave


I think that the volume of an Opera voice plus piano is going to bring out
any negative living room acoustics and I really doubt that the singer would
feel comfortable singing at the required volume in the closed in intimacy of
a living room.
An Opera audition CD should simulate as close as possible the volume and
acoustically reflective conditions of an Opera theatre. So it looks like the
Church is a close to those conditions as you will get. A sympathetic
audience will help with sound absorption and may make the singer and pianist
more at ease.
Were there any guidelines given about the recording space?.
I ask because a standardised theatre resonance would help with those that
are judging the audition.

Keith.


go with whatever allows the singer to give her/his best performance

Mark
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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

As a safety why not record MIDI data from the keyboard as well so you can
substitute a plugin, like Ivory or something later on.
Not the same as playing the plugin live but sometimes you can get away
with
it.


Good suggestion. Actually I was gonna record a split of the line-out from
the keyboard but I might as well record MIDI as well for the extra
flexibility.


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jtougas[_3_] jtougas[_3_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:19:43 -0500, "David Grant"
trained 100 monkeys to jump on the
keyboard and write:

As a safety why not record MIDI data from the keyboard as well so you can
substitute a plugin, like Ivory or something later on.
Not the same as playing the plugin live but sometimes you can get away
with
it.


Good suggestion. Actually I was gonna record a split of the line-out from
the keyboard but I might as well record MIDI as well for the extra
flexibility.


I thought about suggesting that, but ran into two things :

1) latency with the vocal mic
2) getting the reverb acoustics right will likely be a right bitch.

But if you have a good piano sample and a really good reverb, it can't
hurt.

--
jtougas

"listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go" - e.e. cummings
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:13:42 -0500, "David Grant"
trained 100 monkeys to jump on the
keyboard and write:

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!


Another option worth checking out would be if the local college or
university has a small auditorium you could rent out for a day or two
- it'd be relatively inexpensive, since you'd be doing all of your
setup and breakdown. Plus, they might have an acoustic piano on hand.
--
jtougas

"listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go" - e.e. cummings
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Ray Thomas[_2_] Ray Thomas[_2_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano


"David Grant" wrote in message
...
I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have
the option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom
with an acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a
roland digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!

Thanks,

Dave

There are churches and there are churches...I've recorded in modern ones
which are so overly damped and dry as to be like recording studios (home
project studios even !) or at least like modern theatres. The older the
church the more likely it is to have a suitable ambience, but beware of
carpets and drapes hanging .... a lot of churches seem to actively dislike
the reverberance of old (maybe they no longer have choirs associated ?) and
rely on PA systems for propagation. Take the singer to the church and give
him/her a trial sing....10 to15 seconds will be long enough to determine
conclusively ! I agree with the others about the necessary live interaction
between singer and pianist...but another option could be to record the
acoustic baby grand at home solo, and then play it back via good speakers in
the church and have the singer accompany the recording, if they are cool
with that ? You'd then capture a good piano in a good acoustic and the
singer could really let fly...for as many takes as necessary, knowing that
the piano accompaniment is unvarying. It takes one element of variation out
of the equation...but then in recording a 'live performance' that may not be
considered a good thing ? More work for you too, recording the piano twice
in effect, but you might also get the best of both the scenarios you mention
!

Ray




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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

Keith. wrote:

I think that the volume of an Opera voice plus piano is going to bring out
any negative living room acoustics and I really doubt that the singer would
feel comfortable singing at the required volume in the closed in intimacy of
a living room.
An Opera audition CD should simulate as close as possible the volume and
acoustically reflective conditions of an Opera theatre. So it looks like the
Church is a close to those conditions as you will get.


This discussion is getting further and further away from supposed
reality (as usual). Can we hear more from the original poster?

Has the singer (or ANY opera singer) ever sung in your living room with
your piano?
Are you an opera fan?
Did you get into this because you're a friend with a piano and some
recording equipment?
What's riding on the audition recording?

I know that opera singers can be very loud. I also know that rock
singers can be just as loud, and people have recorded then more-or-less
succesfully in poor rooms by using a mic that can take the acoustic
level, placing it close enough so that there isn't a lot of room sound
getting in, setting the preamp gain (maybe using an external pad if
necessary) so it won't clip, and then adding ambience artificially. If
the room is really small and the singer really loud, there may be a
problem witl the singer's room sound getting into the piano mics enough
to sound bad, but there may be a way to control that.

While there may be some advantages to recording in the church - the
singer might like what her vioice sounds to her while she's singing, and
things won't be so cramped (the electronic piano could be recorded
direct just in case) - depending on what's being sung, a church may be
entirely the wrong acoustical environment. And since gear will need to
be brought in for the church recording, there's always room for Murphy's
Lawyer to show up with a motion to exclude the evidence.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

On Dec 9, 2:13*pm, "David Grant" wrote:

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!



What about recording the singer and real piano well in the deader
acoustics of your house and adding a tasteful amount of good digital
reverb later? Would the acoustics of the church really yield better
results?

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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano


This discussion is getting further and further away from supposed
reality (as usual). Can we hear more from the original poster?

Has the singer (or ANY opera singer) ever sung in your living room with
your piano?


No.

Are you an opera fan?


Not like I'm a jazz fan. But I don't mind opera like some people do.

Did you get into this because you're a friend with a piano and some
recording equipment?


I got into it because I recorded a friend's opera recital at a church (which
had good acoustics and a good piano) and one of the other performers
approached me to do this work. A gig that led to another. This church would
be ideal except that it isn't available at a price the singer is willing to
pay.

The submission deadline is very soon and the church with the Roland was all
I could find at the last minute that she would agree to pay for.

What's riding on the audition recording?


I was hesitant to ask that question because I couldn't determine why I
needed to know. Let me guess, knowing the answer might make it obvious that
I need to recommend the singer spend more money on a better venue.

I know that opera singers can be very loud. I also know that rock singers
can be just as loud, and people have recorded then more-or-less
succesfully in poor rooms by using a mic that can take the acoustic level,
placing it close enough so that there isn't a lot of room sound getting
in, setting the preamp gain (maybe using an external pad if necessary) so
it won't clip, and then adding ambience artificially. If the room is
really small and the singer really loud, there may be a problem witl the
singer's room sound getting into the piano mics enough to sound bad, but
there may be a way to control that.


But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.

I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


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Don Pearce[_2_] Don Pearce[_2_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:39:35 -0500, "David Grant"
wrote:


This discussion is getting further and further away from supposed
reality (as usual). Can we hear more from the original poster?

Has the singer (or ANY opera singer) ever sung in your living room with
your piano?


No.

Are you an opera fan?


Not like I'm a jazz fan. But I don't mind opera like some people do.

Did you get into this because you're a friend with a piano and some
recording equipment?


I got into it because I recorded a friend's opera recital at a church (which
had good acoustics and a good piano) and one of the other performers
approached me to do this work. A gig that led to another. This church would
be ideal except that it isn't available at a price the singer is willing to
pay.

The submission deadline is very soon and the church with the Roland was all
I could find at the last minute that she would agree to pay for.

What's riding on the audition recording?


I was hesitant to ask that question because I couldn't determine why I
needed to know. Let me guess, knowing the answer might make it obvious that
I need to recommend the singer spend more money on a better venue.

I know that opera singers can be very loud. I also know that rock singers
can be just as loud, and people have recorded then more-or-less
succesfully in poor rooms by using a mic that can take the acoustic level,
placing it close enough so that there isn't a lot of room sound getting
in, setting the preamp gain (maybe using an external pad if necessary) so
it won't clip, and then adding ambience artificially. If the room is
really small and the singer really loud, there may be a problem witl the
singer's room sound getting into the piano mics enough to sound bad, but
there may be a way to control that.


But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.

I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


There is a lot more to it than simply capturing the sound. She will
sing totally differently in the two venues. In your living room she
will sing "small", while in the church she will be able to sing out
and relax into the reverberation that is coming back at her. If that
is the sound she is after, you really have little choice in the
matter.

d
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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano


There is a lot more to it than simply capturing the sound. She will
sing totally differently in the two venues. In your living room she
will sing "small", while in the church she will be able to sing out
and relax into the reverberation that is coming back at her.


This seems probable. I expect no practical amount of absorption in the
living room will allow her to really sing out.





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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

David Grant wrote:

But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.


No. If you absolutely HAVE to close mike an opera singer (other than a
soprano or countertenor), try two microphones with one at the chest and
one at the mouth. Exact positions depend on the singer. But it won't
sound right, it'll just sound a little better.

You really want to be in a room where you can pull back 30 feet or so.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

On Dec 10, 9:50*am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:39:35 -0500, "David Grant"





wrote:

This discussion is getting further and further away from supposed
reality (as usual). Can we hear more from the original poster?


Has the singer (or ANY opera singer) ever sung in your living room with
your piano?


No.


Are you an opera fan?


Not like I'm a jazz fan. But I don't mind opera like some people do.


Did you get into this because you're a friend with a piano and some
recording equipment?


I got into it because I recorded a friend's opera recital at a church (which
had good acoustics and a good piano) and one of the other performers
approached me to do this work. A gig that led to another. This church would
be ideal except that it isn't available at a price the singer is willing to
pay.


The submission deadline is very soon and the church with the Roland was all
I could find at the last minute that she would agree to pay for.


What's riding on the audition recording?


I was hesitant to ask that question because I couldn't determine why I
needed to know. Let me guess, knowing the answer might make it obvious that
I need to recommend the singer spend more money on a better venue.


I know that opera singers can be very loud. I also know that rock singers
can be just as loud, and people have recorded then more-or-less
succesfully in poor rooms by using a mic that can take the acoustic level,
placing it close enough so that there isn't a lot of room sound getting
in, setting the preamp gain (maybe using an external pad if necessary) so
it won't clip, and then adding ambience artificially. If the room is
really small and the singer really loud, there may be a problem witl the
singer's room sound getting into the piano mics enough to sound bad, but
there may be a way to control that.


But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.


I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


There is a lot more to it than simply capturing the sound. She will
sing totally differently in the two venues. In your living room she
will sing "small", while in the church she will be able to sing out
and relax into the reverberation that is coming back at her. If that
is the sound she is after, you really have little choice in the
matter.

d- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yep I say it again..

go with whatever allows the singer to give her/his best performance

Mark
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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"muzician21" wrote ...
What about recording the singer and real piano well in the deader
acoustics of your house and adding a tasteful amount of good digital
reverb later?


The acoustics isn't particularly about the *recording* it is about
the *performance*. For the same reason that people (not just
opera singers) like to sing in the shower, but not in an overstuffed
closet. Classical vocal music is an *acoustic* "instrument" that
does not involve microphones in any way.

Would the acoustics of the church really yield better results?


For the singer, almost certainly yes. For the recording, probably,
but that can be controlled by mic placement, etc. etc.

Especially for an audition recording, the primary concern is getting
the best *performance* from the singer. If they are competent, the
audience is listening for performance primarily, and the recording
is only the media, not the message itself.


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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

In article ,
"David Grant" wrote:

I'm doing an opera recital recording for my client's audition cd. I have the
option of doing the recording in my not-so-hot sounding livingroom with an
acoustic baby grand or at a local church with nice acoustics but a roland
digital piano.

Since the vocalist is the feature, the obvious choice would seem to be the
church, but as I have no past experience doing opera in my livingroom or
recording digital pianos I'd love a bit of reassurance!

Thanks,

Dave


The "thing" is the sound of the SINGER. The listeners might hate the
sound of the digital "piano" but they are listening to the voice, so the
recording must use whatever space/recording techniques, etc. that make
the voice sound best.
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

David Grant wrote:

I got into it because I recorded a friend's opera recital at a church (which
had good acoustics and a good piano) and one of the other performers
approached me to do this work. A gig that led to another. This church would
be ideal except that it isn't available at a price the singer is willing to
pay.


OK, then you have at least a little experience. That's a good start. The
fact that you have a cheapskate for a client, though, makes it tough for
you to apply what you've learned.

What's riding on the audition recording?


I was hesitant to ask that question because I couldn't determine why I
needed to know. Let me guess, knowing the answer might make it obvious that
I need to recommend the singer spend more money on a better venue.


Yup, you got it! But another way of looking at it is that it may be that
what's important isn't so much how good she sounds when recorded, but if
her phrasing and diction are good, if she can bring the proper emotion
to the music, if she sings in tune and can follow the accompanist. All
of those things can come across no matter what the recording environment
is. If it's an audition to get into a school program or a local
production, then a casual recording will do. If it's an audition for a
record label or to join an opera company, then having a well made
recording is an important indicator of how professional she is and how
committed she is to the business. I expect that she knows something
about this.

But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.


It all depends on what the judge is looking for. I think you need to
find out just what're really expected and then advise her of what to do.
If having a good quality recording is a high priority, then just tell
her that the only way she'll get that is in a better space than what she
can afford. If what's important is how good she is as a singer, as long
as she feels good singing where you decide to record, then it'll be OK.
Let her make the choice. Invite her over and have her sing a little in
your room. If she says "Oh! I can't project in here because it sounds
like I"m singing in the shower, then she'd better try the church.

I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


I doubt that it really matters, particularly if you're going to record a
direct output. If the only piano sound comes from built-in speakers, it
might be difficult to balance with the singer since it probably doesn't
project like a grand piano. But given that this is a low budget project,
all you can do is try your best with what you have to work with.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
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)


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

Scott Dorsey wrote:

You really want to be in a room where you can pull back 30 feet or so.


Which I doubt can be done in a church if it's empty, unless it's not
much bigger than a living room. It's beginning to sound like he should
do the recording in the church, and if it doesn't work out, do it again
in his living room (for free). If neither work out, then she needs to
come up with enough money to find the right place to record.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

On Dec 10, 12:27*pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"muzician21" *wrote ...

What about recording the singer and real piano well in the deader
acoustics of your house and adding a tasteful amount of good digital
reverb later?


The acoustics isn't particularly about the *recording* it is about
the *performance*. For the same reason that people (not just
opera singers) like to sing in the shower, but not in an overstuffed
closet. *Classical vocal music is an *acoustic* "instrument" that
does not involve microphones in any way.



Hmm...

Also, when I said digital reverb earlier I meant to say modeled
reverb, which would render a more convincing sound of a church or
theater setting.
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
David Grant wrote:
I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


I doubt that it really matters, particularly if you're going to record a
direct output.


It will matter a great deal to the accompanist. Especially if it is a
cheap plastic key action.

If the only piano sound comes from built-in speakers, it might be
difficult to balance with the singer since it probably doesn't project
like a grand piano. But given that this is a low budget project, all you
can do is try your best with what you have to work with.


But regardless of the *sound* of the instrument, if the keyboard does
not have the classical piano hammer-action "feel", you are placing a
significant hardship on the accompanist. This has the potential of
significantly affecting the performance and the recording.

I would never consider asking a classically-trained pianist/accompanist
to use a twinky cheap plastic keyboard if I expected a decent performance
out of them. Some might be able to accomodate the very different feel,
but I would NOT assume that unless I knew the musician.


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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
David Grant wrote:
I'm still trying to find the Roland model #.


I doubt that it really matters, particularly if you're
going to record a direct output.


It will matter a great deal to the accompanist.
Especially if it is a cheap plastic key action.

If the only piano sound comes from built-in speakers, it
might be difficult to balance with the singer since it
probably doesn't project like a grand piano. But given
that this is a low budget project, all you can do is try
your best with what you have to work with.


But regardless of the *sound* of the instrument, if the
keyboard does not have the classical piano hammer-action
"feel", you are placing a significant hardship on the
accompanist. This has the potential of significantly
affecting the performance and the recording.
I would never consider asking a classically-trained
pianist/accompanist to use a twinky cheap plastic
keyboard if I expected a decent performance out of them.
Some might be able to accommodate the very different feel,
but I would NOT assume that unless I knew the musician.


Since the manufacturer of the electronic piano is known, the above seems to
be similar to saying that all Roland electronic pianos have "twinky cheap
plastic keyboards".

I think the more serious point is that *all* pianos have a different feel.
Obliging a pianist to play on an instrument that he doesn't feel comfortable
with, whether or electronic or acoustical, is cruel and harsh punishment,
not to mention not too smart in situations like this.

That all said, most of the pianists I work with have, in the natural flow of
modern events, spent considerable time playing on a wide variety of
instruments, acoustical, electronic, expensive and cheap.

In fact, many pride themselves on their ability to wrestle good sound out of
a wide variety of instruments.

For example, many of them work in high schools. Guess what the standard high
school piano is these days. If you don't know, you should be able to guess!
;-)


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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano



For example, many of them work in high schools. Guess what the standard
high school piano is these days. If you don't know, you should be able to
guess! ;-)


Those Yamaha things with 200,000 horrible patches and keys which are so
narrow my pinky finger can hit a minimum of 2 at once?




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Richard Kuschel Richard Kuschel is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano



Scott Dorsey wrote:
David Grant wrote:

But can you really capture the "full sound" of an opera singer up close? I'm
sure that the singer's technical abilities can be captured fairly accurately
in this configuration but I'm not really sure it would sound anything like
what an audition judge would expect it to.


No. If you absolutely HAVE to close mike an opera singer (other than a
soprano or countertenor), try two microphones with one at the chest and
one at the mouth. Exact positions depend on the singer. But it won't
sound right, it'll just sound a little better.

You really want to be in a room where you can pull back 30 feet or so.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


If this is an audition recording, both piano and voice must be
recorded simultaneously. The accompanist has a great deal to do with
the final feel of the performance.

What I would do is place the speaker for the digital piano behind the
singer and mic the room.
The digital piano will blend better with the singer and the singer
will be more comfortable with the sound.

Where the pianist is seated is of no consequence with an electronic
instrument and communication lines may be better than if a real piano
were used.

Unless there was no other option (or for sound reinforcement) I would
never close mic an operatic voice. The dynamic range will blow you
away.
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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"Arny Krueger" wrote...
Since the manufacturer of the electronic piano is known, the above seems
to be similar to saying that all Roland electronic pianos have "twinky
cheap plastic keyboards".


Not at all. We don't know the *model number* so we don't know
what kind of keyboard it has. Are you saying that ALL Roland
keyboards have classic piano hammer-action keyboards? If so,
then we already have our answer and don't need to know the model
number. I don't know enough about ALL Roland products to know
whether they ALL have piano hammer keyboard actions? If anyone
does know, they haven't spoken up here yet.

I think the more serious point is that *all* pianos have a different feel.
Obliging a pianist to play on an instrument that he doesn't feel
comfortable with, whether or electronic or acoustical, is cruel and harsh
punishment, not to mention not too smart in situations like this.

That all said, most of the pianists I work with have, in the natural flow
of modern events, spent considerable time playing on a wide variety of
instruments, acoustical, electronic, expensive and cheap.


Yes, and the same is true for *most* of the pianists I work with.
HOWEVER, high-end classical musicians are a different breed
and much more "prima-donna" about things like this. For better
or for worse. They have their reputations to protect and, of course,
their individual quirks. We don't know anything about the musos
in this scenario, and I would NOT just *assume* that the singer's
accompanist would be fine with a cheap plastic keyboard. Been
there, done that, and got burned for my trouble.

In fact, many pride themselves on their ability to wrestle good sound out
of a wide variety of instruments.


Absolutely, and would that we could all work with musicians
like that. But it isn't safe to assume that they are ALL that nice.

Favorite quote from the printed program at the last "PDQ Bach"
concert in town...

"Professor Schickele plays whatever piano is available, exclusively."

But Peter Schickele is NOT your typical musician. :-)
(And I'll bet he doesn't do real public performances on plastic
keyboards.)


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Default UPDATE

Yup, you got it! But another way of looking at it is that it may be that
what's important isn't so much how good she sounds when recorded, but if
her phrasing and diction are good, if she can bring the proper emotion to
the music, if she sings in tune and can follow the accompanist. All of
those things can come across no matter what the recording environment is.
If it's an audition to get into a school program or a local production,
then a casual recording will do. If it's an audition for a record label or
to join an opera company, then having a well made recording is an
important indicator of how professional she is and how committed she is to
the business. I expect that she knows something about this.


Turns out it's an audition for a competition. My guess would be the
recording quality expectations for this would be somewhere between the
school program audition and the opera company audition that you mention.
That's a pretty wide range. She's sending me more info on the competition so
I can get a better sense of the caliber we're dealing with.

I've offered some of the arguements presented in this thread which convinced
the singer to spend more money and push the recording date closer to the
deadline so we have time to find a better venue.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, this has been a good learning
experience.


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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"David Grant" wrote in message
news
For example, many of them work in high schools. Guess
what the standard high school piano is these days. If
you don't know, you should be able to guess! ;-)


Those Yamaha things with 200,000 horrible patches and
keys which are so narrow my pinky finger can hit a
minimum of 2 at once?


In some cases, so it seems.

So here's the questions.

Are all the Roland keyboards the same way as the "Yamaha things"?

Can you wrest good music out of the "Yamaha things" despite their obvious
shortcomings?


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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics with acoustic piano

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" wrote...


Since the manufacturer of the electronic piano is known,
the above seems to be similar to saying that all Roland
electronic pianos have "twinky cheap plastic keyboards".


Not at all. We don't know the *model number* so we don't
know what kind of keyboard it has. Are you saying that ALL
Roland keyboards have classic piano hammer-action
keyboards? If so, then we already have our answer and don't need to know
the model number. I don't know enough about ALL Roland
products to know whether they ALL have piano hammer
keyboard actions? If anyone does know, they haven't spoken up here yet.


I think that we are promised a clarifcation of those issues in the form of a
model number. Until then I'm trying to say as little about it, other than
that it hasn't been clarified yet, and the answer is not obvious.

I think the more serious point is that *all* pianos have
a different feel. Obliging a pianist to play on an
instrument that he doesn't feel comfortable with,
whether or electronic or acoustical, is cruel and harsh
punishment, not to mention not too smart in situations
like this. That all said, most of the pianists I work with have, in
the natural flow of modern events, spent considerable
time playing on a wide variety of instruments,
acoustical, electronic, expensive and cheap.


Yes, and the same is true for *most* of the pianists I
work with. HOWEVER, high-end classical musicians are a
different breed and much more "prima-donna" about things like this.


That seems to agree with old anecdote and legend. But is it true today?

For better or for worse. They have their reputations to protect and,
of course, their individual quirks. We don't know
anything about the musos in this scenario, and I would NOT just *assume*
that the
singer's accompanist would be fine with a cheap plastic
keyboard. Been there, done that, and got burned for my trouble.


I would hope that this issue was or will be resolved.

In fact, many pride themselves on their ability to
wrestle good sound out of a wide variety of instruments.


Absolutely, and would that we could all work with
musicians like that. But it isn't safe to assume that they are ALL
that nice.


Agreed.

Favorite quote from the printed program at the last "PDQ
Bach" concert in town...


"Professor Schickele plays whatever piano is available,
exclusively."


But Peter Schickele is NOT your typical musician. :-)
(And I'll bet he doesn't do real public performances on
plastic keyboards.)


Based on what I know, he might just do it occasionally to make a point. ;-)




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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Opera: Good acoustics with digital piano or bad acoustics withacoustic piano

Richard Crowley wrote:

But regardless of the *sound* of the instrument, if the keyboard does
not have the classical piano hammer-action "feel", you are placing a
significant hardship on the accompanist. This has the potential of
significantly affecting the performance and the recording.


You're absolutely right, but that's a totally different problem. The
deadline for the audition will be long past before we get the pianist
involved.

This is a session that needs a budget and a producer, or else he should
just stick up a mic in his living room, record what happens, pick the
best take, burn a CD, and go out and hear some good jazz.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
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double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
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Default UPDATE

David Grant wrote:

Turns out it's an audition for a competition.


Sounds to me like it deserves a professional-sounding recording. It's
cheating to make it DAW-professional (edits, punch-ins, pitch tuning,
etc) but I think it would be beneficial if the judges could listen to
the recording and imagine the singer on stage during the competition
rather than practicing in her living room (or singing a solo with the
church choir).

I've offered some of the arguements presented in this thread which convinced
the singer to spend more money and push the recording date closer to the
deadline so we have time to find a better venue.


Sounds ilke a plan You might let us know where you are. Maybe someone
knows a good venue there.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default UPDATE

I've offered some of the arguements presented in this thread which
convinced
the singer to spend more money and push the recording date closer to the
deadline so we have time to find a better venue.


Sounds ilke a plan You might let us know where you are. Maybe someone
knows a good venue there.


Good idea. We're in Toronto, Canada.

Thanks!


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default UPDATE

David Grant wrote:

Good idea. We're in Toronto, Canada.


Call Doug McClement at LiveWire Recording. He has a big remote truck but
he's been in Toronto for a long time and I'll bet he knows, and probably
has recorded in every venue in town. I'll bet he can suggest a place of
the proper size with a decent piano.

http://www.livewireremote.com/frames.asp?l1=contactus

If that doesn't work directly, go to the main web site and click on Contact

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default UPDATE

Call Doug McClement at LiveWire Recording. He has a big remote truck but
he's been in Toronto for a long time and I'll bet he knows, and probably
has recorded in every venue in town. I'll bet he can suggest a place of
the proper size with a decent piano.

http://www.livewireremote.com/frames.asp?l1=contactus

If that doesn't work directly, go to the main web site and click on
Contact


Thanks!


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