Hi!

I hope you can help me find an answer to my question. I own three Sony D8
DAT portables. Two of them (almost simultaneously) now refuse to load DAT
tapes. The machines whirs away for a few seconds, the display blinks
completely off and then the counter shows 0000 but the tape is not loaded.
The machines will now not even load a cleaning tape.

The same tapes that the two sick D8's barf on play in the rarely used third
backup recorder and a standalone machine as well, so it's not likely to be a
tape problem. I read that these units only have a 500 hour head life. Is
that correct? Is that the possible problem?

Any pointers or advice or places to ask this question would be much
appreciated. How much does it cost to replace the heads? Are their sensors
for loading that might be occluded with dust? Are there any known problems
with units that would be causing this?

Thanks!

Eric

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:05:55 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

I hope you can help me find an answer to my question. I own three Sony D8
DAT portables. Two of them (almost simultaneously) now refuse to load DAT
tapes. The machines whirs away for a few seconds, the display blinks
completely off and then the counter shows 0000 but the tape is not loaded.
The machines will now not even load a cleaning tape.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

This sounds like either a major logic problem (possible, but unlikely) or a
transport problem (very probable). But the entire D7/D8/D100 portable line
is fragile and very, very difficult to take apart, let alone repair. The
much larger TCD-D10 (and the improved Series II version) is much easier to
service, but is still mechanically quite complex. It's not a job for the
faint-of-heart.





The same tapes that the two sick D8's barf on play in the rarely used third
backup recorder and a standalone machine as well, so it's not likely to be a
tape problem. I read that these units only have a 500 hour head life. Is
that correct? Is that the possible problem?
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

My advice would be to get a service manual from he

Sony National Parts Center
8281 NW 107th Terrace
P.O. Box 20407
Kansas City, MO 64153
(800) 488-SONY / 7669
(816) 891-7550
http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/service/homepage.htm

and see what the manual for your D8 says. 500 hours sounds incredibly low to
me; my memory of my own D7 is around 2000 hours, but I might be wrong.

My other advice is NOT to play back tapes on these machines, ever. You're
much better off playing back DAT tapes on heavy-duty DAT studio decks (or the
higher-end Sony ES consumer decks), because the mechanical reliability is
better and the head-drum size is larger, and the interchange is better on the
non-portable machines. I also find they're gentler on tapes and handle them
much better than the portables. My philosophy is, just use the portable
machines for recording only. I don't even rewind in them, ever.

Sony's 7000-series decks are particularly good in my experience (7010, 7030,
7040, etc.) for playback. They'll play back a wide range of tapes without
muting or screwing up, far better than the more commonly-seen Tascam or
Panasonic DAT decks. I've seen the Sony's go recently on eBay for anywhere
from $500-$1500, depending on condition.





Any pointers or advice or places to ask this question would be much
appreciated. How much does it cost to replace the heads? Are their sensors
for loading that might be occluded with dust? Are there any known problems
with units that would be causing this?
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

Maybe not dust per se, but I bet the loading arm might need lubrication. My
memory is that the lube they specify for portables (cassettes and DAT) is
very specialized, and you can't just spray on any old lube and expect it to
work. Use what the service manual advises.

The last time I took apart a D7, I remember it was a combination of
direct-drive motors AND belts -- I think belts for loading/unloading and
shuttling. It could well be there's a slipped belt in one of the units, but
I barely got my deck back together again once I dismantled it. I seem to
recall it took an hour to disassemble, and about 4 hours to put back together
-- and that was with the service manual!

You could try asking for advice on the DAT heads mailing list:

http://www.atd.ucar.edu/rdp/dat-heads

And another good place for fixing DAT decks is Manhattan Sound, at:

http://www.tangible-technology.com/


The alternative would be to send it directly to Sony service, but I don't
know what the parts situations is on the D8's these days. (Probably not
good.)
The last time I sent a D7 in for alignment, I think Sony had a fixed price of
about $120 plus parts -- same price for cleaning/alignment as for head
replacement. I think heads were maybe $250 or so. Sad thing is, you can buy
a used D8 for about that off eBay.

--MFW

Eric Wolfe wrote:

I hope you can help me find an answer to my question. I own three Sony D8
DAT portables. Two of them (almost simultaneously) now refuse to load DAT
tapes. The machines whirs away for a few seconds, the display blinks
completely off and then the counter shows 0000 but the tape is not loaded.
The machines will now not even load a cleaning tape.

This is one of the MANY standard D-8 transport problems.

The same tapes that the two sick D8's barf on play in the rarely used third
backup recorder and a standalone machine as well, so it's not likely to be a
tape problem. I read that these units only have a 500 hour head life. Is
that correct? Is that the possible problem?

No, when that happens, they start making all sorts of horrible noises,
but the transports are okay.

Any pointers or advice or places to ask this question would be much
appreciated. How much does it cost to replace the heads? Are their sensors
for loading that might be occluded with dust? Are there any known problems
with units that would be causing this?

There are sensors that go bad, a transport control chip that goes bad,
all kinds of rubber parts that go bad. The list of known transport problems
on these decks goes on for pages and pages.

You don't replace the heads on them... in general, any of the half-size
head drum machines are cheaper to replace than the head drums on them.

I honestly don't know anyone that will still work on those things, although
if you're willing to risk the Oade brothers, they probably will. You might
try asking on the DAT-Heads mailing list.

It is theoretically possible to get Sony to actually repair things, but it
is not easy and usually requires several trips to service and a couple letters
to Japan. But it can be done and I know some people who have succeeded in
getting machines actually repaired by the Consumer division.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Eric Wolfe wrote:

I hope you can help me find an answer to my question. I own three Sony
D8
DAT portables. Two of them (almost simultaneously) now refuse to load
DAT
tapes. The machines whirs away for a few seconds, the display blinks
completely off and then the counter shows 0000 but the tape is not
loaded.
The machines will now not even load a cleaning tape.

This is one of the MANY standard D-8 transport problems.

frown

The same tapes that the two sick D8's barf on play in the rarely used
third
backup recorder and a standalone machine as well, so it's not likely to
be a
tape problem. I read that these units only have a 500 hour head life.
Is
that correct? Is that the possible problem?

No, when that happens, they start making all sorts of horrible noises,
but the transports are okay.

Well, it's not that - but they are getting pretty old. I suppose I got my
money's worth out of them considering. The question is - what to do now?
Replace them with something newer or invest money in looking to get them to
fixed.

Any pointers or advice or places to ask this question would be much
appreciated. How much does it cost to replace the heads? Are their
sensors
for loading that might be occluded with dust? Are there any known
problems
with units that would be causing this?

There are sensors that go bad, a transport control chip that goes bad,
all kinds of rubber parts that go bad. The list of known transport
problems
on these decks goes on for pages and pages.

I looked at the rubber feet on the bottom of the units and the alligatoring
I saw make me conclude that there was similarly decaying rubber in guts.

You don't replace the heads on them... in general, any of the half-size
head drum machines are cheaper to replace than the head drums on them.

I was afraid of that. Just like handicams.

I honestly don't know anyone that will still work on those things,
although
if you're willing to risk the Oade brothers, they probably will. You
might
try asking on the DAT-Heads mailing list.

These guys? www.solorb.com/dat-heads/

It is theoretically possible to get Sony to actually repair things, but it
is not easy and usually requires several trips to service and a couple
letters
to Japan. But it can be done and I know some people who have succeeded in
getting machines actually repaired by the Consumer division.

That's a possibility. They are very useful for long speech recordings
without tape changes. I'd hate to work without them but I assume there's
better stuff on the market now. I just haven't looked in a while.

Thanks for your input.

Eric

In article writes:

- but they are getting pretty old. I suppose I got my
money's worth out of them considering. The question is - what to do now?
Replace them with something newer or invest money in looking to get them to
fixed.

This is a sticky question right now. I'm waiting it out. I have my
Nomad Jukebox 3 and I can get by with that, but it's no substitute for
my portable DAT (which, like yours, is now sick and unusable). At the
moment, there are some hard disk or flash card based recording systems
but either they're not fully integrated (all in one package), too
expensive (Nagra) or too crummy. I can hold out for at least another
year, so that's what I'm going to do. Fostex and Sound Devices both
have something suitable and just barely affordable on the horizon.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1068816609k@trad...

In article writes:

- but they are getting pretty old. I suppose I got my
money's worth out of them considering. The question is - what to do
now?
Replace them with something newer or invest money in looking to get them
to
fixed.

This is a sticky question right now. I'm waiting it out. I have my
Nomad Jukebox 3 and I can get by with that, but it's no substitute for
my portable DAT (which, like yours, is now sick and unusable).

It's a plague! It really surprised me that both died at once. Well, one's
half dead and awfully picky about tapes. I used to do a lot of conference
and seminar recording and the D8 was remarkably adept at catching 4 hours of
very good quality audio unattended and unobstrusively.

I can hold out for at least another
year, so that's what I'm going to do. Fostex and Sound Devices both
have something suitable and just barely affordable on the horizon.

I guess I'm going to wait, too. That's too bad. I worry that whatever
killed the first two machines is working on the third. I got very used to
having backup capability.

Thanks!

Eric

"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:05:55 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

I hope you can help me find an answer to my question. I own three Sony
D8
DAT portables. Two of them (almost simultaneously) now refuse to load
DAT
tapes. The machines whirs away for a few seconds, the display blinks
completely off and then the counter shows 0000 but the tape is not
loaded.
The machines will now not even load a cleaning tape.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

This sounds like either a major logic problem (possible, but unlikely) or
a
transport problem (very probable). But the entire D7/D8/D100 portable
line
is fragile and very, very difficult to take apart, let alone repair. The
much larger TCD-D10 (and the improved Series II version) is much easier to
service, but is still mechanically quite complex. It's not a job for the
faint-of-heart.

OK - say no more. I've never taken apart anything tiny that didn't eject a
microscopic spring or circlip across the room into the twilight zone. It's
not that I am faint-of-heart; I am fumbled-of-fingers.

The same tapes that the two sick D8's barf on play in the rarely used
third
backup recorder and a standalone machine as well, so it's not likely to
be a
tape problem. I read that these units only have a 500 hour head life.
Is
that correct? Is that the possible problem?
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

My advice would be to get a service manual from he

Sony National Parts Center
8281 NW 107th Terrace
P.O. Box 20407
Kansas City, MO 64153
(800) 488-SONY / 7669
(816) 891-7550
http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/service/homepage.htm

and see what the manual for your D8 says. 500 hours sounds incredibly low
to
me; my memory of my own D7 is around 2000 hours, but I might be wrong.

They could have could easily have 500 hours on them - maybe not 2000 but I
can't say for sure.

My other advice is NOT to play back tapes on these machines, ever. You're
much better off playing back DAT tapes on heavy-duty DAT studio decks (or
the
higher-end Sony ES consumer decks), because the mechanical reliability is
better and the head-drum size is larger, and the interchange is better on
the
non-portable machines. I also find they're gentler on tapes and handle
them
much better than the portables. My philosophy is, just use the portable
machines for recording only. I don't even rewind in them, ever.

Where were YOU 500 hours ago when that advice might have saved me from
scrapping these puppies??! (just kidding, of course)

Sony's 7000-series decks are particularly good in my experience (7010,
7030,
7040, etc.) for playback. They'll play back a wide range of tapes without
muting or screwing up, far better than the more commonly-seen Tascam or
Panasonic DAT decks. I've seen the Sony's go recently on eBay for
anywhere
from $500-$1500, depending on condition.

This may be the end of DAT for me. I original got into DAT on the (what I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive. That would have offloaded
playback and digital transfer to a much more easily repaired and much more
robust piece of equipment. But unless something's changed, those two
formats never intersected. So I spent hundreds of bucks on RMKs and 7 pin
patch cables and DAL cards that I never got to work quite right. If I wait
a little longer, the industry paradigm shift might be complete and I can
record to DVD-RW's. I use them for computer backup now, the DAT's are being
pulled from my PCs one by one and replaced with DVD-recorders that offer
twice the recording space for half the media cost and record it at 8 times
the speed.

Any pointers or advice or places to ask this question would be much
appreciated. How much does it cost to replace the heads? Are their
sensors
for loading that might be occluded with dust? Are there any known
problems
with units that would be causing this?
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

Maybe not dust per se, but I bet the loading arm might need lubrication.
My
memory is that the lube they specify for portables (cassettes and DAT) is
very specialized, and you can't just spray on any old lube and expect it
to
work. Use what the service manual advises.

I'm probably not going to spring for the manuals. I have plenty of Sony
service them, going back to a TC100 and they haven't been much help other
than confirming these suckers are too tiny and complex for me to be much
good at fixing them. I think I finally learned that on a M1000 stereo
microcassette.

The last time I took apart a D7, I remember it was a combination of
direct-drive motors AND belts --

Belts. Jeez. I've been amazed at how belts have disappeared from VCR
transports over the years. A belt is born to die.

I think belts for loading/unloading and
shuttling. It could well be there's a slipped belt in one of the units,
but
I barely got my deck back together again once I dismantled it.

Yikes!

I seem to
recall it took an hour to disassemble, and about 4 hours to put back
together
-- and that was with the service manual!

That seems to be about the right ratio. I used to set up those hinge boxes
with dividers, remove every screw in order, laying them out in serial order
in the parts box just to make sure I got the order right. I even took
digital pictures of the disassembly process. To no avail. What's needed is
perhaps six sets of exquisite robotic fingers that can hold the tiniest of
parts in place while clamshells are shut or case tops lowered back onto
their mates or holding one thing down will you slide another thing under.
Yeah. Buy a new one or find a service center. You've convinced me!

You could try asking for advice on the DAT heads mailing list:

http://www.atd.ucar.edu/rdp/dat-heads

Thanks. I think you guys have covered it, though.

And another good place for fixing DAT decks is Manhattan Sound, at:

http://www.tangible-technology.com/

Thanks for that tip, too.

The alternative would be to send it directly to Sony service, but I don't
know what the parts situations is on the D8's these days. (Probably not
good.)
The last time I sent a D7 in for alignment, I think Sony had a fixed price
of
about $120 plus parts -- same price for cleaning/alignment as for head
replacement. I think heads were maybe $250 or so. Sad thing is, you can
buy
a used D8 for about that off eBay.

I'm going to see what Sony says. Then it might be off to Ebay to sell them
to someone with nimbler fingers.

Eric

Eric Wolfe wrote:
This may be the end of DAT for me. I original got into DAT on the (what I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive. That would have offloaded
playback and digital transfer to a much more easily repaired and much more
robust piece of equipment. But unless something's changed, those two
formats never intersected.

Actually, you can do it with some of the Archive DDS drives, that have
special firmware to read audio DAT tapes. It's not cheap at all, but
it used to be popular with some of the mastering guys running Sonic.

So I spent hundreds of bucks on RMKs and 7 pin
patch cables and DAL cards that I never got to work quite right. If I wait
a little longer, the industry paradigm shift might be complete and I can
record to DVD-RW's.

The problem isn't DAT, the problem is those crappy Sony machines. If you
buy crappy gear, you will waste a lot of time fiddling with things trying
to get stuff to work, and buying accessories to make it do stuff it should
have done in the first place (witness those godawful 7 pin connectors).

If you buy crappy DVD-RW systems, you will have the same problems. The
problem is not the medium, the problem is the implementation.

I'm going to see what Sony says. Then it might be off to Ebay to sell them
to someone with nimbler fingers.

The Sony flat rate cost isn't bad, but don't expect them to actually get it
fixed on the first try.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Eric Wolfe" wrote in message ...
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1068816609k@trad...

In article writes:

- but they are getting pretty old. I suppose I got my
money's worth out of them considering. The question is - what to do
now?
Replace them with something newer or invest money in looking to get them
to
fixed.

This is a sticky question right now. I'm waiting it out. I have my
Nomad Jukebox 3 and I can get by with that, but it's no substitute for
my portable DAT (which, like yours, is now sick and unusable).

It's a plague! It really surprised me that both died at once. Well, one's
half dead and awfully picky about tapes. I used to do a lot of conference
and seminar recording and the D8 was remarkably adept at catching 4 hours of
very good quality audio unattended and unobstrusively.

I can hold out for at least another
year, so that's what I'm going to do. Fostex and Sound Devices both
have something suitable and just barely affordable on the horizon.

I guess I'm going to wait, too. That's too bad. I worry that whatever
killed the first two machines is working on the third. I got very used to
having backup capability.

Thanks!

Eric

A few years back a copy room I knew of had 24 Aiwa(A Sony company)
cassette machines.
They were all bought at the same time but as the components were so
closely manufactured, when one developed a problem most of the rest
developed the same fault within a few days.

Steve Lane

In article writes:

It's a plague! It really surprised me that both died at once.

A few years back a copy room I knew of had 24 Aiwa(A Sony company)
cassette machines.
They were all bought at the same time but as the components were so
closely manufactured, when one developed a problem most of the rest
developed the same fault within a few days.

That's pretty amazing. I wish I knew how they can predict the life of
car batteries as accurately as they do. If you have a battery that's
guaranteed for 42 months, you can bet it will last at least 40 months
(when it's pro-rated warranty value is next to nothing) and will
probably be dead as a mackerel by 44 months. It's been that way for me
for about the last 30 years of car ownership.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:31 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

This may be the end of DAT for me. I original got into DAT on the (what I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

I'm not sure how that's a good idea. How would this be better than just
playing back the DAT tape directly into an S/PDIF sound card? Also, trying
to figure out the start/stop time for each segment on a Data DAT drive would
be a nightmare, even assuming it could be done at all. My experience in the
early 1990s with SCSI DAT drives for data wasn't very pleasant.




If I wait
a little longer, the industry paradigm shift might be complete and I can
record to DVD-RW's.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

I use DVD-RW's all the time, just to time-shift stuff I need to watch
temporarily. Just did that with TAKEN -- a miniseries that definitely
doesn't deserve permanent DVD-R's! :-)



Don't forget my other comment about playing the tapes back on bigger,
heavier-duty machine. That was my main point: the little portables are OK
as recorders, but not-so-hot as players. And they definitely don't hold up
for continued day-in/day-out use.

--MFW

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Eric Wolfe wrote:
This may be the end of DAT for me. I original got into DAT on the (what
I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital
audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive. That would have offloaded
playback and digital transfer to a much more easily repaired and much
more
robust piece of equipment. But unless something's changed, those two
formats never intersected.

Actually, you can do it with some of the Archive DDS drives, that have
special firmware to read audio DAT tapes. It's not cheap at all, but
it used to be popular with some of the mastering guys running Sonic.

Yes - that's what I recall. I had HP Surestore drives and no firmware was
available for those drives. It was clearly not a simple or cheap option -
and that's hard to understand given the basic similarities between the
formats. The Dying D8's lasted almost into the next generation of recording
technology. I hope that the last D8 lasts long enough to transfer
everything of note to DVD.

So I spent hundreds of bucks on RMKs and 7 pin
patch cables and DAL cards that I never got to work quite right. If I
wait
a little longer, the industry paradigm shift might be complete and I can
record to DVD-RW's.

The problem isn't DAT, the problem is those crappy Sony machines. If you
buy crappy gear, you will waste a lot of time fiddling with things trying
to get stuff to work, and buying accessories to make it do stuff it should
have done in the first place (witness those godawful 7 pin connectors).

Had an ex-wife working for Sony at the time. They had a generous employee
discount. The price was more than good. I got my use out of them. I
agree the 7 pin connector was a bad idea, but I'll bet it was done to save
space - at the time they were designed their size/price ratio seemed pretty
good, especially with a discount. Would I have liked more connectors on
board? Sure. Even a minispeaker. I can bet that these features existed on
prototypes but got excised for economy.

If you buy crappy DVD-RW systems, you will have the same problems. The
problem is not the medium, the problem is the implementation.

Everything's a tradeoff between price and marginal utility.

I'm going to see what Sony says. Then it might be off to Ebay to sell
them
to someone with nimbler fingers.

The Sony flat rate cost isn't bad, but don't expect them to actually get
it
fixed on the first try.

Is it typically a failure to fix the original fault or introduction of new
faults?

Eric

"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:31 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

This may be the end of DAT for me. I original got into DAT on the (what
I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital
audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

I'm not sure how that's a good idea.

That's why I said it was hilarious. An opportunity arose to buy one at
employee discount and I thought I would be able to at least read the audio
files onto a hard drive and audio CD's.

How would this be better than just
playing back the DAT tape directly into an S/PDIF sound card?

I'll bet the D8's would still be working if the reading had been offloaded
to internal SCSI DAT drives. That would have saved wear and tear on the
harder to repair D8's.

Also, trying
to figure out the start/stop time for each segment on a Data DAT drive
would
be a nightmare, even assuming it could be done at all. My experience in
the
early 1990s with SCSI DAT drives for data wasn't very pleasant.

You'd need a program that could emulate the tape recorder's processing
capabilities. It wouldn't be (and apparently wasn't, from what someone else
said) a trivial deal and involved modifications to one particular brand of
DAT data drives.

If I wait
a little longer, the industry paradigm shift might be complete and I can
record to DVD-RW's.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

I use DVD-RW's all the time, just to time-shift stuff I need to watch
temporarily. Just did that with TAKEN -- a miniseries that definitely
doesn't deserve permanent DVD-R's! :-)

DVD-RW is a nice format - you can master stuff without ruining a stack of
write once disks. I'll soon be finding out what the practical use limits of
those are. But no portable DVD recorder I know of can match the D8 for
size yet and may never since the disk is fairly wide. But they will become
small and cheap soon, since the format drives the market and DVDs have
certainly made their mark. I've watched them go from one panel on the 12
panel wall at the local Target to 11 panels worth of displays. I wonder if
there's a website devoted to lost formats? Sony Beta, 8 tracks,
videodiscs - lots of dead branches on the tree.

Don't forget my other comment about playing the tapes back on bigger,
heavier-duty machine. That was my main point: the little portables are
OK
as recorders, but not-so-hot as players. And they definitely don't hold
up
for continued day-in/day-out use.

And I repeat - now ya tells me! grin It may be just like the timing
belt in my Honda after either 5 years or 90K miles, it's gonna blow. Sounds
like these rigs are famous for transport trauma. I suspect, with regret,
that you are right and I should have used a big deck for more playback.
C'est la vie.

Eric

A few years back a copy room I knew of had 24 Aiwa(A Sony company)
cassette machines.
They were all bought at the same time but as the components were so
closely manufactured, when one developed a problem most of the rest
developed the same fault within a few days.

Steve Lane

I think that's what happened here. It suddenly got cold and dry and I'll
bet that little rubber belts got all crazed and alligatored at pretty much
the same time being made from the same batch of rubber. Thanks for the
confirming info. The implication is that the good deck will fail shortly.
It will be interesting to see.

Eric

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

That's pretty amazing. I wish I knew how they can predict the life of
car batteries as accurately as they do. If you have a battery that's
guaranteed for 42 months, you can bet it will last at least 40 months
(when it's pro-rated warranty value is next to nothing) and will
probably be dead as a mackerel by 44 months. It's been that way for me
for about the last 30 years of car ownership.

I just made the same comment to a friend. They must have the decay rate
pretty well figured because if you have a 42 month battery, you really need
to start thinking "new battery" at month 40, as you say. I have a note
written in my planner to check it tomorrow since the lights dimmed when I
hit the defroster this AM. Another sure sign that bad battery BS is on the
way.

Eric

In article writes:

I original got into DAT on the (what I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive.

I'm not sure how that's a good idea. How would this be better than just
playing back the DAT tape directly into an S/PDIF sound card?

At this point, he doesn't have a DAT that works, so it would be a
definite advantage if he had a transport in his computer that worked
and also would read an audio (the A in DAT) format tape. And of course
there's also the faster-than-real-time potential - why people "rip"
CDs and whine about copy protection rather than playing them in real
time.

Also, at the time he bought his portable DAT, sound cards with S/PDIF
input weren't all that common, so it may not have been an option then.
And now, he's in the situation where he doesn't have a functional DAT.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1068899579k@trad...

In article
writes:

I original got into DAT on the (what I
realize now is the hilarious) assumption I could play extract digital
audio
from a DAT using a PC's SCSI DAT backup drive.

I'm not sure how that's a good idea. How would this be better than just
playing back the DAT tape directly into an S/PDIF sound card?

At this point, he doesn't have a DAT that works, so it would be a
definite advantage if he had a transport in his computer that worked
and also would read an audio (the A in DAT) format tape. And of course
there's also the faster-than-real-time potential - why people "rip"
CDs and whine about copy protection rather than playing them in real
time.

That was the theory. Practice was something else. There were some Linux
folks I knew working on the problem for other drives but the deal breaker
was the amount of modification anything but one particular brand of SCSI DAT
required.

Also, at the time he bought his portable DAT, sound cards with S/PDIF
input weren't all that common, so it may not have been an option then.

It became an option a while later with a DAL ISA sound card that had
interrupt issues from the day I bought it until the day I got a modern sound
card that had S/PDIF. I am the DAL card languishes in a box somewhere as a
tribute to what I consider a mostly failed DAT experiment. Too many kludges
required (the RMK, the DAL board, etc.) to make it a workable process for my
needs.

And now, he's in the situation where he doesn't have a functional DAT.

I'm not quite that bad off - there's one left that appears to work without
problems. The other two are hosed. One completely - it will not play
*any* tapes - and the other plays about 1 tape in 10. And all of those ten
tapes played in a borrowed full sized deck. So out of the three I would say
I have 1.25 functioning decks.

Eric

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:56:36 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

DVD-RW is a nice format - you can master stuff without ruining a stack of
write once disks. I'll soon be finding out what the practical use limits of
those are. But no portable DVD recorder I know of can match the D8 for
size yet and may never since the disk is fairly wide.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

No, DVD is not my choice for on-location recording -- though at least one
vendor (Fostex) is using the small 8cm DVD-RAM discs. Me personally, I think
the best choice is to use a hard drive, which is what the Deva, Nagra, and
forthcoming Sound Devices units use. From there, you can offload the
material to CD-R, DVD-R, another drive, or even an analog format if you want.
I think that's by far the most flexible way to go.

The Sound Devices units are certainly not as small as the D8, but they are
pretty small. I think with stuff like this, you reach a point where you
don't want it too small, or else you can't see the meters or hit all the
buttons with your fingers. For ultimate small size, I think Core Sound's
"PDAudio" device is impossible to beat, since it's only slightly smaller than
a Palmtop. They have their limitation (mainly in lack of timecode and other
pro features), but for people doing a simple stereo music recording on
location, it'll do the job nicely.

BTW, if you need a way to play back your existing DAT tapes, I'd be glad to
create .WAV files out of your cassettes (for a fee). Barring that, I also
have an extra Sony PCM-7010 deck I'm selling. That's a machine that can
pretty much play anything. I already have a 7030, which is a slightly better
unit, and all I need for my small studio.

--MFW

"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:56:36 -0800, Eric Wolfe wrote
(in message ):

DVD-RW is a nice format - you can master stuff without ruining a stack
of
write once disks. I'll soon be finding out what the practical use
limits of
those are. But no portable DVD recorder I know of can match the D8 for
size yet and may never since the disk is fairly wide.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------

No, DVD is not my choice for on-location recording -- though at least one
vendor (Fostex) is using the small 8cm DVD-RAM discs. Me personally, I
think
the best choice is to use a hard drive, which is what the Deva, Nagra, and
forthcoming Sound Devices units use. From there, you can offload the
material to CD-R, DVD-R, another drive, or even an analog format if you
want.
I think that's by far the most flexible way to go.

Agree. But there were plenty of cases where I would record something onto
two decks simultaneously and offer the other tape to a seminar participant.
That way I had a backup running on-site and one stored off site. g That's
not easy to do with a hard drive based system. The Fostex sounds
interesting because I can play it back (I hope) in any DVD equipped PC. Can
I? Or would I be making the same dumb format assumption that I made with
audio and computer DATs?

The Sound Devices units are certainly not as small as the D8, but they are
pretty small. I think with stuff like this, you reach a point where you
don't want it too small, or else you can't see the meters or hit all the
buttons with your fingers.

Quite true. FWIW, the Sony got high marks for in the dark operation with
the backlight and the texture marked and uniquely shaped button surfaces.
Of course, the backlight could pump noise onto the tape, but that wasn't a
problem with my kind of work.

For ultimate small size, I think Core Sound's
"PDAudio" device is impossible to beat, since it's only slightly smaller
than
a Palmtop. They have their limitation (mainly in lack of timecode and
other
pro features), but for people doing a simple stereo music recording on
location, it'll do the job nicely.

I'll have a look. Thanks.

BTW, if you need a way to play back your existing DAT tapes, I'd be glad
to
create .WAV files out of your cassettes (for a fee). Barring that, I also
have an extra Sony PCM-7010 deck I'm selling. That's a machine that can
pretty much play anything. I already have a 7030, which is a slightly
better
unit, and all I need for my small studio.

I looked at the library, and it's mostly boring conference tapes. I'll hang
onto them for archival purposes, but there's not much I would bring across.
If it was important, it's already been transferred to the PC world.

Eric

In article writes:

But there were plenty of cases where I would record something onto
two decks simultaneously and offer the other tape to a seminar participant.
That way I had a backup running on-site and one stored off site. g That's
not easy to do with a hard drive based system.

You can always split the signal to the hard disk recorder as well as a
cassette recorder. The participant will almost always want a cassette,
unless he wants a CD. In that case you could substitute a CD recorder
for the cassette recorder. But it's the rare seminar participant who
will be able to make use of a DAT.

The Fostex sounds
interesting because I can play it back (I hope) in any DVD equipped PC. Can
I? Or would I be making the same dumb format assumption that I made with
audio and computer DATs?

I'm not sure if it's able to record in a DVD audio format, but I'm
certain that it will record WAV files on CD, so you can play it on any
PC that has a WAV file player (Microsoft and Real Audio will assure
that you have one g).

The Sound Devices units are certainly not as small as the D8, but they are
pretty small. I think with stuff like this, you reach a point where you
don't want it too small, or else you can't see the meters or hit all the
buttons with your fingers.

This is my feeling, too. It's why I have reservations about Core
Sound's approach to using a PDA as a recorder, and why I'm not crazy
about the Jukebox 3 or a laptop computer. If you're in the dark, or
you don't have a solid table to set things on, it's difficult to push
the "Record" button. In addition, none of these devices have
integrated mic preamps (I choose to ignore the Jukebox's concept of a
microphone input), so you need another box, another cable, and another
power source in addition to the recorder.

I can see any one of these approaches if you already have a mixing
console set up for a sound reinforcement system, can put your recorder
on the same table, and get a line level output from the console. That
means you don't need the outboard preamp and its trappings, and if the
PA operator (which might even be you) has enough light to see the
mixer, there's probably enough light to see the recorder.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1069087571k@trad...

In article writes:

But there were plenty of cases where I would record something onto
two decks simultaneously and offer the other tape to a seminar
participant.
That way I had a backup running on-site and one stored off site. g
That's
not easy to do with a hard drive based system.

You can always split the signal to the hard disk recorder as well as a
cassette recorder. The participant will almost always want a cassette,
unless he wants a CD.

This was a sort of unusual case where my people were the only ones who were
really going to use the tape. Using a cassette recorder would have meant at
least two, maybe more flipping episodes to load new tapes. That's why the
D8's on LP mode with Sony 124 tapes was unbeatable. Still far better
fidelity than a cassette and no one ever went more than 4 hours without a
break.

In that case you could substitute a CD recorder
for the cassette recorder. But it's the rare seminar participant who
will be able to make use of a DAT.

We really didn't care that much if they couldn't read them. It was a peace
of mind sort of thing where they got to choose either tape A or tape B from
the two originals we had made. The big benefit for us was that we were
always making backups - and it saved my butt when for some reason the record
button didn't engage and I recorded nothing for the first hour or so. (I
would have bet my life I saw the VU meter bars showing an input signal but
they might have been reading what was previously recorded and I mistook it
for an input signal.)

Basically the participants wanted to have a copy of everything they said -
just in case. We were always able to dupe cassettes from the DAT originals
if they had needed it in that (or CD WAV file format) but hardly anyone ever
asked (we weren't doing this as a professional service - we needed a
complete transcript of events to write our evalutions of the seminar). In
many cases they were already making cassette tapes for themselves but we
found the quality of those tapes to be pretty uneven so we started making
DATs for ourselves.

The Fostex sounds
interesting because I can play it back (I hope) in any DVD equipped PC.
Can
I? Or would I be making the same dumb format assumption that I made
with
audio and computer DATs?

I'm not sure if it's able to record in a DVD audio format, but I'm
certain that it will record WAV files on CD, so you can play it on any
PC that has a WAV file player (Microsoft and Real Audio will assure
that you have one g).

That's good. I'd hate to make the same mistaken assumption twice. I have
used the mini-CD format for a number of things because they fit nicely
inside a number 10 business envelope. I have not, as yet, run across DVD
blanks in the mini format but I assume they are out there. I just haven't
looked that hard.

The Sound Devices units are certainly not as small as the D8, but they
are
pretty small. I think with stuff like this, you reach a point where
you
don't want it too small, or else you can't see the meters or hit all
the
buttons with your fingers.

This is my feeling, too. It's why I have reservations about Core
Sound's approach to using a PDA as a recorder, and why I'm not crazy
about the Jukebox 3 or a laptop computer. If you're in the dark, or
you don't have a solid table to set things on, it's difficult to push
the "Record" button.

The phrase "Jack of all Trades, Master of none" comes to mind. I've seen
people try to turn PDAs into any number of things they are ill-suited for.
I think even a greater misuse than turn one into a recorder is turning it
into a super remote. It wasn't until a reviewed one that I realized how
important a good tactile layout is for a remote. They are, like recorders,
often operated in low or no light conditions using a relatively small subset
of all available keys. The PDA was the only remote I ever had to reboot!

In addition, none of these devices have
integrated mic preamps (I choose to ignore the Jukebox's concept of a
microphone input), so you need another box, another cable, and another
power source in addition to the recorder.

Jeez, just what I DON'T want to do, having a wiring kludge. It's hard
enough keeping a microphone and power cord plugged in and there were plenty
of times I had no convenient access to outlets and had to run the D8's off
internal NiMH batteries (which kept it going for 4+ hours). It's one of the
things I liked about the D8 - it took regular AA batteries. That's
incredibly important to me for things like recorders and cameras that go out
into the field. Try to buy a specialized NiMH or lithium power pack at the
corner drugstore.

I can see any one of these approaches if you already have a mixing
console set up for a sound reinforcement system, can put your recorder
on the same table, and get a line level output from the console. That
means you don't need the outboard preamp and its trappings, and if the
PA operator (which might even be you) has enough light to see the
mixer, there's probably enough light to see the recorder.

I have a neat little LED flashlight on a stalk that covers that problem.
Runs for days on two AA's. It's a necessity for working seminars and stuff.

Eric