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#1
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subgrouping drums
I know a common mixing technique is to send the drums and maybe the bass to a
stereo aux return, highly compress this stereo submix, and bring it up low in the mix to add a subtle "punch" to the drum kit. When I do this I get phasing problems (especially on the snare), which seems to make sense. Is there anything that is typically done to prevent phasing issues when subgrouping drums? The music I'm mixing is electronic, i.e. there are no overheads, etc. thanks for any suggestions. jn |
#2
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subgrouping drums
Is there
anything that is typically done to prevent phasing issues when subgrouping drums? The music I'm mixing is electronic, i.e. there are no overheads, etc. thanks for any suggestions. Is this a DAW setup? The subgroup processing may be causing a latency delay. What program are you using and is there delay compensation available? John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#3
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subgrouping drums
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#4
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subgrouping drums
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#5
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subgrouping drums
In article ,
BananaHead wrote: Phase problems bigtime. I messed around with phase flip switches, either on the bombed track or the original ones. In some cases this helped. Others it didn't. Polarity switches will not fix the effects of a time delay. If you're working on a DAW try moving the nuked track ever so slightly forward or backward in time. Just a little pinch will align things differently. That usually does the trick. If you run out of a workstation to a converter and back, or to an effect and back, this path will have a specific and repeatable delay. Find out what that delay is and compensate for it. It's not some sort of voodoo or something you'd want to adjust by ear, unless you have a lot of spare time. Just measure it by recording stuff through it and reading the delay off of a waveform view of the source and return tracks, delay the direct path by that amount and you're done. If you absolutely can't figure out what the delay is, set the outboard gear to do as little processing as possible (while preserving the same delay it'd have when you were using it for real), add a variable delay to the direct path, set up the direct or effect path to invert (but not both) and try to make the two paths cancel by adjusting the delay time. When you're getting closer, the difference between the delayed direct and the processed signal will lose more and more low frequencies until it's gone entirely. Of course, you have to also level match the direct and effected paths to get a cancellation, but this shouldn't be too tough in a workstation either. Have fun, Monte McGuire |
#6
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subgrouping drums
Thanks for the replies. I should have stated that I'm using Pro Tools, and no
outboard processing. I found that the phasing problems were indeed caused by latency in the plug-ins on the aux input channel. I guess the easiest thing to do is record the subgroup, then move it forward in time until it is back in phase. Quite a pain, especially if you decide you want to change something in the submix. |
#7
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subgrouping drums
In article ,
JLNelson19 wrote: Thanks for the replies. I should have stated that I'm using Pro Tools, and no outboard processing. I found that the phasing problems were indeed caused by latency in the plug-ins on the aux input channel. I guess the easiest thing to do is record the subgroup, then move it forward in time until it is back in phase. Quite a pain, especially if you decide you want to change something in the submix. Printing effected tracks is never the easy way! If you're trying to do parallel compression, route the submix to a bus and bring the bus back on two separate aux inputs. Add your processing to one of the auxes and add a delay to the other to compensate for the processing delay. The Waves DLA is what I usually use, but Digi gives you a simple delay for this purpose with the DigiRack plugins, so you do have one available. Problem solved. Don't know how long to set the delay? Hold the command key down and click on the fader volume level display of each of the aux input strips. This changes the display to the peak hold level display... click again and you get a readout of that channel's processing delay in samples. Adjust the delay until both of the parallel auxes read the same number of samples. (Some delays don't count the 2 or 3 sample TDM insert delay, so don't just do subtraction and set the delay to that number. Always check the aux input's delay readout to make sure you got it right). If you're getting delays of more than 40-50 samples, I'd also consider delaying the other tracks so as not to mess up the feel of the performance. Even something as small as a millisecond will affect the feel of a track, so I say why mess up something that ain't messed up. Yeah, it's a pain, but the DLA is cheap DSP wise, so it's not a problem to put them where you need them. Also note that if you're processing tracks that share acoustic bleed, any processing delays not common to all the tracks might change how the bleed works, so those might also be worth aligning, even if you have only 5-10 samples of relative delay. In extreme cases, such as trying to use something like an FIR EQ, I'll slip the processed tracks forward to compensate for the delay (and put a note on the scribble strip for those tracks, so I won't forget later on). The Waves LinEQ has so much delay, you'd need several DLAs to compensate and that's a waste of inserts and DSP. Delay compensation is pretty much a pain in the rear, but you do have the tools available to make it work without resorting to printing effected tracks. Best of luck, Monte McGuire |
#8
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subgrouping drums
Delay compensation is pretty much a pain in the rear, but you do have
the tools available to make it work without resorting to printing effected tracks. Never used ProTools. Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools? That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!! John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#9
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subgrouping drums
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#10
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subgrouping drums
Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro
tools? This might be difficult to get right. I have noticed on my DAW that some plugins introduce a longer delay than others. I have a harmonizer that adds almost 30 ms of delay most others add about 7-10ms. To auto correct you would need to know the delay spec for every plugin. To add to this, the adjustable buffer settings might complicate matters. I know nothing about Pro Tools (except what I have read in marketing hype) so can't talk about how the TDM system works. Pro Tools's TDM spec may require the plugin to provide delay compensation feedback or something. It seems logical that such a sophisticated (and expensive) DAW should do this. |
#11
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subgrouping drums
It
seems logical that such a sophisticated (and expensive) DAW should do this. I also use Samplitude and this is a godsend..never worry about it anymore. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#12
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subgrouping drums
In article ,
Blind Joni wrote: Never used ProTools. Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools? That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!! Yeah, they don't do delay compensation, except for the case of RTAS tracks on a TDM mix - those are comepnsated for free... But, TDM inserts are not compensated for. The excuse is that with the complex routing that you can do in the mixer, you can't easily correct for it in the general case (unless they add delay memory to their mixer and change the way buses work). For example, it's possible to 'Y' off a bussed signal to two different aux inputs, each with differing delays. To get this to work, the bussed signal would have to be delayed inside of the mixer plugin for each separate path, and two TDM timeslots would have to be used, one for each Y'ed path. Things could be done this way, but they aren't. I'd be happy enough with delay compensation only on disk tracks (not aux inputs). This would solve 99% of the hassles and the only thing to change would be what offset is handed to DAE to tell it when to play the file - the existing mixer and bussing scheme would not have to be changed. A parallel compressor setup would have to be hand compensated, but that's a lot less daunting than having to hand compensate a pile of tracks and keep track of what's going on when you switch among different plugins. Someday, maybe they'll do it. Or not... Regards, Monte McGuire |
#13
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subgrouping drums
In article ,
Monte P McGuire wrote: In article , Blind Joni wrote: Never used ProTools. Are you saying that Digi has not implemented autocompensation in Pro tools? That doesn't seem right. What a PITA!! Yeah, they don't do delay compensation, except for the case of RTAS tracks on a TDM mix - those are comepnsated for free... ^^^^^^ ....shoulda said 'inserts', not 'tracks'... Monte McGuire |
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