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#81
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
writes:
Actually, I'm really not an expert on the subject, as a matter of fact I don't even attend church. From what I understand, God would have no gender per se. I'm assuming that because of the power of God, ancient man referred to God as masculine because women did not exhibit those kinds of traits or at least were not percieved to exhibit those kinds of traits. It depends on when in history you focus. In some societies God was feminine, in most masculine. It had to do with farming practices for one thing. Keep in mind that the bible is really the only thing we have to go by (there are a few things other than that) and even though the bible is supposed to be THE documentation of Christianity and some of Judaism, it's still a document contaminated by humans and their inherent bias and ignorance. I would not agree that the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. There are many beautiful spiritual traditions and books which each have their own way of describing god or a universal intelligence. The Bible is the most well known in the United States. I am conservative by nature, but I am by no means a fundamentalist. Like I said I don't attend church, I am fascinated by Christianity and theology as a whole, but I don't buy into everything hook line and sinker. Nice to know you are thinking for yourself and not blindly following what others say to believe. Many many people do just that without so much as ever even seriously questioning the validity of their beliefs. In fact in some cases the very act of questioning them is a transgression isnt it? The bible (I know I will get flamed for this!) wasn't just a religious document, it was like a manual for living Of course. Thats much of what any spiritual writing is. Otherwise, whats the point? I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. Gee you'd think that the most omniscient, powerful, intelligent, creative and supreme entity in existence would be exempt from loneliness... Couldn't he at least get cable? Garth~ I liked that idea of God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine, because everybody else did. "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle." Ed Cherney |
#82
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Scott Dorsey wrote:
As it is, gender implications in English seem to have changed since I was in school. "Man is vivparous and he bears live young" was a perfectly reasonable sentence not long ago, Back then "man" and "Man" were different words. --scott Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#83
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes: God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a literary device. That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not. I would have thought not but that might be my ignorance about Christianity. I suspect that people may not be as far apart as one might think with respect to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group believes. Once it becomes a contentious argument any chance of clarifying postions and defining terms becomes scarce as people then have egos to defend. Also, the fact that some religions have been so fully co-opted by politics is a sad thing as it has probably polluted the purity of the orginal ideas beyong any repair for most people. Garth~ "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle." Ed Cherney |
#84
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Garthrr" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" writes: God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a literary device. That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion in general I have no idea whether that's a widely held position or not. AFAIK all Moslems, Jews and Christians should agree with this vision of God. The Devil is in the details. I would have thought not but that might be my ignorance about Christianity. I suspect that people may not be as far apart as one might think with respect to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I agree. The biggest danger is trying to say what God is, or is not with almost any degree of specificity. I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group believes. I agree. The next biggest danger is trying to say what someone else things God is, or is not with almost any degree of specificity. Once it becomes a contentious argument any chance of clarifying positions and defining terms becomes scarce as people then have egos to defend. As a RAO veteran, I'm intimately familiar with the end points of debating. Also, the fact that some religions have been so fully co-opted by politics is a sad thing as it has probably polluted the purity of the original ideas beyond any repair for most people. To me, a key thing is to remember that religions are fabrications of man. In the context of orthodox Christianity, God didn't make Christianity. He made Christ and a man does with him what he will, at his own risk. |
#86
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
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#87
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
WillStG wrote:
If that's not a problem for you Hank, then why not just come out and say that you think you better than Jesus? I am saying you never heard Jesus speak anything at all, and that there is no way you cn trace convincingly the trail of so-called hisotry in a way that supports your argument. What you believe is a story. So be it. -- ha |
#88
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"WillStG" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" "No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and fill it. Well - thing is Arny, that view presumes that man will forever be in a state of separation from God. How so? |
#90
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Carlos Alden wrote:
WillStG wrote But I think both you and Brother H. are so used to the Politically Correct BS you have heard, that you just aren't aware what the implications are of things you say and the positions you have been taking. So how fortunate for you guys that I am here to help you out in that regard, eh? g I usually don't contribute anything to political or religious posts, but this comment really struck a nerve. If my opinion differs from yours, you just chalk it up to PC brainwashing and dismiss me, or anything that you don't agree with. (Sounds like Bill O'Reilly commenting on anything.) That's trashy and intellectually cheap. I could do the same thing for EVERYTHING you've written by attributing your viewpoints to mere "religiously correct" brainwashing. I was brainwashed in all the Christian dogma up until I was 14, when I realized that god is much bigger than being somebody's angry but somewhat forgiving Santa Claus daddy. The Bible only gives up hints as to the huge and wonderful presence of god, and to take a piece of that and stamp it as authentic, rejecting all others, is insecurity. Carlos Thou hast cut to the chase. -- ha |
#91
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Arny Krueger wrote:
The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a physical body. And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's. |
#92
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
S O'Neill wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote: The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a physical body. And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's. No, as I recall, they were bigger than Jesus. Although, seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall, this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo can't be THAT big. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#93
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Scott Dorsey wrote:
S O'Neill wrote: Arny Krueger wrote: The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a physical body. And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's. No, as I recall, they were bigger than Jesus. Although, seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall, this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo can't be THAT big. But Gort was. |
#94
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
WillStG wrote:
Steven Sullivan Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not the writers of the Gospel. Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot of people believe a lot of crazy ****. What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God, where did I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your preconceptions are imposing themselves onto my words. Yes, Jesus *presumed* to speak on god's behalf. A god who's as real as unicorns and elves and the Easter Bunny. And Jesus' words are all second-hand reportage. So, rational people should take any of this seriously exactly why? Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates' like this. Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic respect for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking **** like this eithier. I respect great teachers, but I don't respect any teacher's claim to be a *god*. I have the same relationship with gods that I have with other imaginary characters that man has created. THe differences is I don't often see people fervently affirming their faith in the Easter Bunny. Then again, there are those Star Trek fans.....and believers in 'cable sound'. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#95
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Arny Krueger wrote:
"WillStG" wrote in message Steven Sullivan Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not the writers of the Gospel. Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot of people believe a lot of crazy ****. What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God, where did I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your preconceptions are imposing themselves onto my words. Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates' like this. "No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and fill it. Yes, the urge towards irraitonal belief is strong. THus is audiophilia explained. One the ironies of life is the fact that Secular Humanism, at least in its first two incarnations last century, clearly thought itself to be a religion. I don't know of many modern secularists who would admit that they were religious. The only people I know who rant about 'secular humanists' are religious. Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic respect for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking **** like this either. Agreed. What a lot of so-called atheists seem to do is to make up some crazy religion, call it Christianity, and then tell everybody they think it is stupid. I'm prone to agree with the idea that their made-up religion is stupid. ;-) All religions are made-up, Arny. Interesting that you find yourself on Miho's side of this one. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#96
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
WillStG wrote:
"Arny Krueger" "No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and fill it. Well - thing is Arny, that view presumes that man will forever be in a state of separation from God. blah, blah, blah.....opinion the existence of 'God' presumed as fact. All else that follows is simply extrapolation from that dubious premise..which is as good a definition of religion as any. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#97
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Garthrr" wrote in message
... writes: Actually, I'm really not an expert on the subject, as a matter of fact I don't even attend church. From what I understand, God would have no gender per se. I'm assuming that because of the power of God, ancient man referred to God as masculine because women did not exhibit those kinds of traits or at least were not percieved to exhibit those kinds of traits. It depends on when in history you focus. In some societies God was feminine, in most masculine. It had to do with farming practices for one thing. They are mostly masculine, though. I was speaking specifically about Christianity. Keep in mind that the bible is really the only thing we have to go by (there are a few things other than that) and even though the bible is supposed to be THE documentation of Christianity and some of Judaism, it's still a document contaminated by humans and their inherent bias and ignorance. I would not agree that the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. There are many beautiful spiritual traditions and books which each have their own way of describing god or a universal intelligence. The Bible is the most well known in the United States. I said that there were other things, but nobody pays any attention to them. In Christianity the bible is it. I am conservative by nature, but I am by no means a fundamentalist. Like I said I don't attend church, I am fascinated by Christianity and theology as a whole, but I don't buy into everything hook line and sinker. Nice to know you are thinking for yourself and not blindly following what others say to believe. Many many people do just that without so much as ever even seriously questioning the validity of their beliefs. In fact in some cases the very act of questioning them is a transgression isnt it? This would be the reason I don't attend church. The bible (I know I will get flamed for this!) wasn't just a religious document, it was like a manual for living Of course. Thats much of what any spiritual writing is. Otherwise, whats the point? Most people don't see that though. They are too focused on the stories in the bible to really understand what it is in practical terms to begin with. I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. Gee you'd think that the most omniscient, powerful, intelligent, creative and supreme entity in existence would be exempt from loneliness... Couldn't he at least get cable? That's what's so beautiful about the story, there's almost a fable in itself. "Everybody needs somebody sometime" |
#98
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
WillStG wrote:
something first has to exist before we should bother over what sex it might be The point is what the nature of the relationship is. The point is that it is personal and as close as a Parent and their child should be. What is it about Believers and their penchant for Capitalization, anyway? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#99
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#100
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Romeo Rondeau wrote:
I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. I liked that idea of God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine, because everybody else did. So, this guy was so smart that he could only imagine a 'god' who exhibited the human trait of 'loneliness'? It's amusing that believers always posit a god who is claimed to be 'incomprehensible' on the one hand, not to mention inconceivably powerful, and on the other is oh so very human. Isn't it likely that all 'gods' are projections of human hopes, fears, dreams, imagination? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#101
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Garthrr" wrote in message I've always wondered about this and never asked a "believer" but is it your belief that God actually has a physical body and that it is male? That would be Jesus about 2000 years ago? If the answer is yes then I guess there are all kinds of questions that arise, but the first one to pop into my head would be; is he, then, alone? No, there is a Trinity which is ultimately one entity. The God part of the Trinity is a transcendent being, by definition indescribable. The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a physical body. The Spirit part of the Trinity is well a spirit, totally physically insubstantial yet perceptible. or so the story goes. There may at one time have been beings on the Earth with properties that led to the various stories by the Greeks, Norse, Asian Indians, etc. Best guess: they were angels doing things they shouldn't have been doing. LOL. *Angels*? Arny, seriously, you believe this stuff? I'm not impugning your beliefs, honestly, just trying to get clear on what they are. It seems hard for me to believe that anyone could conceive of a humanoid, physical God Right insofar as God is concerned. but I cant really infer anything else from the concept of God being male. God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a literary device. For something so 'indescribable' believers sure have spent a lot of energy describing it. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#102
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Garthrr wrote:
In article , "Arny Krueger" writes: God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a literary device. That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not. *All* claims about gods come from the mouths and pens of men, and should be evaluated accordingly. There are alas no properly documented instances of a god actually speaking to humans, nor documents written by gods. No properly documented evidence that gods even exist, actually. to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group believes. Well, several of the major groups assert, without any reality-testing, they're right about God and the others are wrong...end of story. Hard to move on from there. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#103
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Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Christian Serig wrote:
Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here. Neither to threads about god, but what the hell. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#104
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Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Mark Steven Brooks wrote:
Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here. Obviously the people who answered this are small minded and do not believe in divine intervention even when it is the smallest of things to let you know he is listening. My God can kick the **** out of your God! Hungarian is a language rich in epithets. One of them is used upon entering a rival village: "**** your God!" and upon leaving: "Our God ****s you!" -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#105
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Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
WillStG wrote:
(hank alrich) Please leave off with assitgning gender to any so-called supreme being; that is the height of human arrogance and male sexism. Speaking for the Allmighty, are we Hank? Are we putting words in God's mouth now? Everyone else does. Why should hank be forbidden to? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#106
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message ... Romeo Rondeau wrote: I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. I liked that idea of God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine, because everybody else did. So, this guy was so smart that he could only imagine a 'god' who exhibited the human trait of 'loneliness'? No, I only told part of the story, it was a long trip and there was way more that I would bother to type, I just included one very small part of the conversation as an example. It's amusing that believers always posit a god who is claimed to be 'incomprehensible' on the one hand, not to mention inconceivably powerful, and on the other is oh so very human. Actually, you missed my point. The loneliness was a Godly trait that he passed on to us, since he made us in his image. Isn't it likely that all 'gods' are projections of human hopes, fears, dreams, imagination? Our human hope, fears, dreams and imaginiation come from God, you have it backwards. |
#107
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message ... Garthrr wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" writes: God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a literary device. That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not. *All* claims about gods come from the mouths and pens of men, and should be evaluated accordingly. There are alas no properly documented instances of a god actually speaking to humans, nor documents written by gods. No properly documented evidence that gods even exist, actually. And there is no evidence that God doesn't exist, either. Which is why it's really pointless to discuss it, if you don't respect other people's viewpoints. to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group believes. Well, several of the major groups assert, without any reality-testing, they're right about God and the others are wrong...end of story. Hard to move on from there. Good point. Guess that's why they call it faith? |
#108
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message ... On 17 Mar 2004 14:23:03 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote: It the nature of man to have to beleive in _something_. Bingo. Makes me wonder about the religious nature of other mammals, especially primates and cetaceans. Haven't you ever wondered why we are different from them? |
#109
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
S O'Neill wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall, this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo can't be THAT big. But Gort was. 8'2" or 9'0" depending on which one. |
#110
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Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message ... WillStG wrote: (hank alrich) Please leave off with assitgning gender to any so-called supreme being; that is the height of human arrogance and male sexism. Speaking for the Allmighty, are we Hank? Are we putting words in God's mouth now? Everyone else does. Why should hank be forbidden to? Because he's biased against Will? Don't believe me? Try google. |
#111
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
To say that calling God "Father" is sexist and arrogant as H. said, or
infantile and the actual reason there is no world peace as you have said, is to offer that opinion regarding the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Now if you want to own that, that you think you are a higher authority on the matter than he and that his teachings are destructive compared to your own, just come out and say it outright Mark. You haven't actually read or understood anything I've said in this thread. And yes, I consider most religions and Christianity in particular to be a cancer. (Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music) |
#112
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Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message ... Christian Serig wrote: Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here. Neither to threads about god, but what the hell. You don't seem to have a problem jumping into the argument... g |
#113
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
"Arny Krueger"
"WillStG" wrote "Arny Krueger" "No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and fill it. Well - thing is Arny, that view presumes that man will forever be in a state of separation from God. How so? By saying that "no religion" would be an ustable state. If mankind was all whole and perfected spiritually, that would be in a stable state in relation to the Creator and each other; there would be no need of religion to "rebind" man (as the definition says.) But I do agree that if you remove God from people's lives they do manage to fill that space up with something else. That is a vacuum of meaning that something must rush in to fill as you say, I'm just saying that in perfection that wouldn't happen. Well, maybe it might to kids during their growth period while they aren't matured in their being yet. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#114
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
And I'm a kook for saying it ls wrong
to insult people and denigrate them for calling God "Father", and for saying such insults are extremely dogmatic and narrow minded? Fine. In all honesty Will you appear to be the one who is dogmatic and narrow minded throughout this entire thread. But being such you are unable to see it. (Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music) |
#115
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that
he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot of people believe a lot of crazy ****. And they'll be voting for Bush in the next election. (Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music) |
#116
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#117
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#118
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#119
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OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window
Kurt Albershardt wrote:
S O'Neill wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall, this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo can't be THAT big. But Gort was. 8'2" or 9'0" depending on which one. Oops. Decimal point error. |
#120
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