Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

The one called "The other side" is written by David Morgan, I can tell. Plus
the authors name is Dave.

then we take Berlin.

MM

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom
Waits

"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in
message
"WillStG" wrote in message
...

Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

The one called "The other side" is written by David Morgan, I can
tell. Plus the authors name is Dave.

Whoever the writer is, he makes the point that good music comes out of
teamwork.

Whoda thunk?

Michael McInnis wrote:

then we take Berlin.

MM


And everybody gets a share -- Milo Minderbinder

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom
Waits





--
Les Cargill

"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message ...

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

The one called "The other side" is written by David Morgan, I can tell. Plus
the authors name is Dave.



I wonder if anyone who read over the site itself, noticed that you
can actually "request a rant" in order to begin a thread.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in
message
"WillStG" wrote in message
...

Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

The one called "The other side" is written by David Morgan, I can
tell. Plus the authors name is Dave.

Whoever the writer is, he makes the point that good music comes out of
teamwork.

Whoda thunk?

I think this guy hasn't had the extra chore of mixing from the stage
while playing. There are many gigs I just wish someone was out there
who knew what they were doing. It's a God send when some musician out
in the crowd comes up and tells me; "I cant hear the bass players mic,
the bass is too loud, Turn up the acoustic... ect..."

On the other hand there are really good sound men. Guys who in an
instant can tell where the hum is coming from. Take apart a fender
twin on break and have it up and running by the downbeat. I'm
fortunate to have mostly good experiances with soundmen. The good
ones are really a rare thing and unfortunately they can charge a hefty
price.

I've seen bands who have their attendant hanger on who runs the board.
I can only agree at how spot on this essay is in that respect.
Typically I see these bands set up in small clubs where the sound
re-enforcement isn't needed. The stage volume alone would fill the
room.

What about light men??? grin

IR

the mis-use of that quote always annoys me. The point was that in a country
where there were no lawyers there would be no rule of law, it would be easy to
conquer. Now it's a lawyer joke, which is fine, but one could always make up
one's own...


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

(Fill X)
the mis-use of that quote always annoys me. The point was that in a country
where there were no lawyers there would be no rule of law, it would be easy to
conquer.

So it would make taking over the RIAA easy then? g





Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

Ah, but this rant was from 2000, so it must be Clinton's fault! g

That was a joke, son.
--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

WillStG wrote:

Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

" Sound systems will be operated by the musicians themselves.... "

chortle as if !

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:


" Sound systems will be operated by the musicians themselves.... "

chortle as if !

Graham


It would be kinda funny to watch all of the fistfights that break out
when everyone in the band keeps trying to turn themselves up 8-}

___________________
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
www.okcbackup.com

An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

-lee-

Leoaw3 wrote:

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

The further one turns them down the more subtle becomes their
directionality.

--
ha

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

The guy who wrote "first we kill all the soundmen", well his playing
is probably doing just that.

ospam (Leoaw3)
Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

You could try using one of these HSS drivers.

http://www.atcsd.com/tl_hss.html

Problem is you might have a hell of a time eqing a non-linear ultrasonic
wave, and it'll bounce off the back wall like a laser beam... g


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Leoaw3 wrote:

An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

Make them small and stick them in your ears?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Leoaw3 wrote:
An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

Yes, but only at higher frequencies.

There are some folks who have tried using line array gadget as stage
monitors, though, which helps.

But in-ear monitors are the only real solution.

I went to a concert in a 1000-seat hall, performed by a well-known Latin
pianist. He had a 5 piece percussion group, and he played piano. The piano
was closed up, AKG 414s mounted inside it, and it was wrapped in packing
blankets to reduce leakage.

The pianist had two JBL monitors, each with two 15" drivers and a huge
horn. The rest of the band had one of these monitors.

The FOH guy shut the system down completely, so everything in the hall
was either direct sound or from the monitors. And it was uncomfortably
loud in the balcony, just from the piano monitors. The pianist kept
waving to the monitor guy and demanding more monitors.

There is nothing that will fix this sort of thing short of in-ear monitors.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I rather liked the rewrite from Doug Fowler...

"Leoaw3" wrote in message
...
An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with
stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

You could, but it doesn't address the problem. The more directional the
monitors are, the more the musicians have to stand in one place in order to
hear them. The problem isn't that the monitors aren't directional enough,
the problem is too much noise on the stage. Reduce the volume on the stage
and let the FOH put the sound in the audience, where it belongs. That way,
the stage is quiet enough for everyone to hear their monitors, the musicians
ears don't ring for days afterwards, and the crowd can still have a loud
rock show.

ryanm

Bob Cain wrote in message ...
Leoaw3 wrote:

An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

Make them small and stick them in your ears?


Bob

Has anyone tried only side fill monitors? Seems like it would work for
smaller venues or it could be used to reduce the number of onstage
monitors. Wonder about the feedback problems.


http://www.mmeproductions.com

ryanm wrote:

"Leoaw3" wrote in message
...
An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with
stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

You could, but it doesn't address the problem. The more directional the
monitors are, the more the musicians have to stand in one place in order to
hear them.

Yup, that's why horns in monitors are often the 'other way round' so the band
don't keep stepping in and out of the coverage.

The problem isn't that the monitors aren't directional enough,
the problem is too much noise on the stage. Reduce the volume on the stage
and let the FOH put the sound in the audience, where it belongs. That way,
the stage is quiet enough for everyone to hear their monitors, the musicians
ears don't ring for days afterwards, and the crowd can still have a loud
rock show.

Way too simple - lol. Nice when the band are actually disciplined enough to do
it though.

Graham

ryanm wrote:
You could, but it doesn't address the problem. The more directional the
monitors are, the more the musicians have to stand in one place in order to
hear them. The problem isn't that the monitors aren't directional enough,
the problem is too much noise on the stage. Reduce the volume on the stage
and let the FOH put the sound in the audience, where it belongs. That way,
the stage is quiet enough for everyone to hear their monitors, the musicians
ears don't ring for days afterwards, and the crowd can still have a loud
rock show.

ryanm



I guess every soundguy should carry 3 or 4 of these around with them:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ULTAMP150

and "insist" the players use them.

IEMs are the best, but I found out the hard way to plug my ears of I
have to walk backstage. Seems in their quest to lower stage volume, they
turned all of the amps around and moved them to the back of the stage. I
rounded the corner and almost had my head taken off by a FenderTwin.
The worst are the players that I guess can't or don't want to afford
IEMs, but still want to protect their hearing and use plugs.
It was Ty Herndon at the oldest dancehall in Texas(the name escapes me)
for a benefit. The stage volume was absolutly intolerable. I couldn't
stand in monitor world for more than a minute.

____________________
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
www.okcbackup.com

Pooh Bear wrote:


Yup, that's why horns in monitors are often the 'other way round' so the band
don't keep stepping in and out of the coverage.

We put tried some of these:

http://www.ddshorns.com/asymmetr.htm

and ended up building new wedges with them. Gives you a lot bigger sweet
spot. Lets the band move around quite a bit and still hear themselves.



Not that you really want that! ;-}

_________________
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
www.okcbackup.com

The problem isn't that the monitors aren't directional enough,
the problem is too much noise on the stage. Reduce the volume on the stage
and let the FOH put the sound in the audience, where it belongs.

Like that's gonna happen. g

But you can try going with the flow. One thing that can work in a small
club is just bounce the stage monitors off the back wall behind the band and
kill the house speakers completely. So all the vocals are reflected sound...
It can be much more pleasant for the audience that way.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Mike wrote:

Has anyone tried only side fill monitors? Seems like it would work for
smaller venues or it could be used to reduce the number of onstage
monitors. Wonder about the feedback problems.

Depends a lot on the room, but yes, I have spec'd sidefills only
sometimes for my own bands. Can work very well with hypercard mics.

--
ha

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Now here's a rant...

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant....178&startrow=1

Ah, but this rant was from 2000, so it must be Clinton's fault! g

That was a joke, son.

Go play your new piano g

Yep, proper mics and usually outdoors. If you can build a nice soundstage
up for the musician then it can work nicely. But I'm speaking from playing
days, not from a sound engineer's perspective. As Hank mentioned, you still
have to do the work to get them to sound right, and sometimes musicians
don't like it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike" wrote in message
om...
Bob Cain wrote in message
...
Leoaw3 wrote:

An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling with
stage
monitors so loud that they become a major part of the FOH sound.

Is there any way to make stage monitors more directional???

Make them small and stick them in your ears?


Bob

Has anyone tried only side fill monitors? Seems like it would work for
smaller venues or it could be used to reduce the number of onstage
monitors. Wonder about the feedback problems.


http://www.mmeproductions.com

And sometimes even the amp stands don't help. I've been working/playing
with a group over about a 20 year period and during that time they've
basically accepted all my suggestions, like modest amp size, amp stands,
etc., but the one thing I can't stop them from doing is playing at '11'.
They claim it's their "balls to the walls" sound and I claim it's just noisy
and unfocused. Plus I can't seem to get it through their heads that if they
are that loud, there's no doubt in anyone's mind on who's making the
mistakes. After 20 years, though, they still have mistakes, so that says
something anyway.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mitchell Benson" wrote in message
...
ryanm wrote:
You could, but it doesn't address the problem. The more directional
the
monitors are, the more the musicians have to stand in one place in order
to
hear them. The problem isn't that the monitors aren't directional
enough,
the problem is too much noise on the stage. Reduce the volume on the
stage
and let the FOH put the sound in the audience, where it belongs. That
way,
the stage is quiet enough for everyone to hear their monitors, the
musicians
ears don't ring for days afterwards, and the crowd can still have a loud
rock show.

ryanm



I guess every soundguy should carry 3 or 4 of these around with them:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ULTAMP150

and "insist" the players use them.

IEMs are the best, but I found out the hard way to plug my ears of I
have to walk backstage. Seems in their quest to lower stage volume, they
turned all of the amps around and moved them to the back of the stage. I
rounded the corner and almost had my head taken off by a FenderTwin.
The worst are the players that I guess can't or don't want to afford
IEMs, but still want to protect their hearing and use plugs.
It was Ty Herndon at the oldest dancehall in Texas(the name escapes me)
for a benefit. The stage volume was absolutly intolerable. I couldn't
stand in monitor world for more than a minute.

____________________
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
www.okcbackup.com

wrote in message ...
On 2004-03-10 ospam(Leoaw3) said:
An interesting thread in the original link is soundmen struggling
with stage monitors so loud that they become a major part of the
FOH sound. Is there any way to make stage monitors more
directional???
NOt that I know of, but there is a way to better control monitor
volume.

tHe folks on stage need to position back line amps so they're not
blowing right into the front line vocal mics. Getting those speakers
from their back line gear to fire across the stage and into their ears
instead of their knees will also help keep their amp volume down
permitting you to not need so much from stage monitors.

Never ceases to amaze me when I'm doing a show and this guitar god
tells me he's only got a little 30 watt amp and can't turn it down any
more. YEt he positions the little amp so it's blowing at the backs of
his knees and firing straight up into nearby vocal mics. Hmmm
THere have been quite a few threads on this in
alt.audio.pro.live-sound over the past few years.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



Great audio is never heard by the average person,
But bad audio is heard by everyone.

Although they made the "amps in the mics" problem a little bit worse,
the whole 80's "stack thing" actually had a good side, every Marshall
user I played with that had a full stack played at a lower volume than
the half stack guys.

Marshall cabs are very directional, so you take a guy and a small
stage, give him a half stack and he doesn't realize the volume level
is raging. Stick a 4 x 12" up by his head and he goes "damn! that's
loud".

One thing I have always wondered is how those guys back in the 60's
heard any kind of vocals (maybe they didn't)....play at the Fillmore
with Marshalls behind you and no vocal monitor and I wonder how they
heard anything.

Analogeezer

Analogeezer wrote in message
om...

One thing I have always wondered is how those guys back in the 60's
heard any kind of vocals (maybe they didn't)....play at the Fillmore
with Marshalls behind you and no vocal monitor and I wonder how they
heard anything.

Now you know why so many of the vocals in live albums of that era sound less
like singing and more like shouting; if you can't tell what note you're
singing (and mostly, you're right, they couldn't) it's better to not sing a
note at all. Sprechtstimme, sixties-style.

Peace,
Paul

"Mike" wrote in message
om...

Has anyone tried only side fill monitors? Seems like it would work for
smaller venues or it could be used to reduce the number of onstage
monitors. Wonder about the feedback problems.

My band does that when it's appropriate for the venue. Depending on the
height of the stage, we will sometimes put a wedge on top of each main stack
on its side, facing across the front line. Still have to give the drummer
and keyboardist their own wedges, but it works great for the front line in a
lot of situations. Mostly because they are at head level, which means you
don't have to put out near as much volume from the monitors for everyone to
be able to hear them.

ryanm

"Analogeezer" wrote in message
om...

Although they made the "amps in the mics" problem a little bit worse,
the whole 80's "stack thing" actually had a good side, every Marshall
user I played with that had a full stack played at a lower volume than
the half stack guys.

Marshall cabs are very directional, so you take a guy and a small
stage, give him a half stack and he doesn't realize the volume level
is raging. Stick a 4 x 12" up by his head and he goes "damn! that's
loud".

A half stack is too loud for anything short of an arena, too. The Black
Crowes tour with 18-30 watt combo amps, and they put on a *loud* rock show.
The only reason you would ever want a half stack, or any amp that is larger
than 50 watts, for guitar in a smaller than arena-sized venue is to
compensate for having a small penis. Or not being able to play guitar.

One thing I have always wondered is how those guys back in the 60's
heard any kind of vocals (maybe they didn't)....play at the Fillmore
with Marshalls behind you and no vocal monitor and I wonder how they
heard anything.

I think a lot of the time, most of those cabs weren't even plugged in. I
know that Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top) often puts 2 or more full marshall stacks
on the stage that aren't even plugged in, and sets up a bassman and a closed
2x12 cab behind the stacks with a mic in front. It looks more impressive,
and it keeps the guitarists in the crowd saying "How the hell does he get
that clean from a pair of Marshall stacks!?!" Of course, he's also been
known to put 6 rat distortion pedals in a chain right in front of the mic
that aren't plugged in (except to one another), and has the FOH guy adding
his effects at the board, just to screw with people's heads... g

ryanm

"WillStG" wrote in message
...

But you can try going with the flow. One thing that can work in a
small
club is just bounce the stage monitors off the back wall behind the band
and
kill the house speakers completely. So all the vocals are reflected
sound...
It can be much more pleasant for the audience that way.

There is a band that my younger brother used to play with, standard
classic rock and blues type band, and I ran the mix (on their equipment) for
them a few times. These were middle-aged guys, which means that they were
pretty set in their ways and weren't open to suggestions from a
twenty-something who was "still ****ting yellow when I started this band".
The singer required his monitor (a 2x15+ horn on it's side!) so loud that I
literally dropped the main faders to -inf and the only difference you could
hear was that the keys disappeared. He had badgered me all night to keep
turning up the vox in his monitor that his monitor was putting out more
sound than the mains. The guitars, bass, and drums weren't even in the mix,
because they were all too loud on stage. Needless to say, my brother doesn't
play for them any more.

ryanm

"Mitchell Benson" wrote in message
...

I guess every soundguy should carry 3 or 4 of these around with them:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ULTAMP150

and "insist" the players use them.

Both of my guitarists use stands and play 18 and 38 watt amps (both Dr.
Z's, a Maz 18 Jr and a Maz 38 Sr.) , and they never turn their volumes above
4 (and that's too fekkin loud, but it sometimes happens by the end of the
night). No guitars in the monitors, either. It's easy if the drummer is
capable of playing at reasonable volumes, and the guitars and bass can keep
their volumes low. We put everything through the mains and keep the volumes
low on stage, otherwise we would have a feedback nightmare between the 4
vocal mics, the 4 percussion (conga and other percussion) mics, the hot drum
mics, etc. I couldn't tell you how many decibels it is, but there is a
threshold that we can't pass or everything turns to mush because of all the
bleed on the stage.

And if you want to bring gear and force the band to use it to keep the
volume down, try *this*:

http://zvexamps.com/nanoinhand.html
http://zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

Now *that's* what I'm talking about...g

IEMs are the best, but I found out the hard way to plug my ears of I
have to walk backstage.

I don't like IEMs. I can, and have, used them, but it jacks with my
spatial perspective. It's too "flat" and doesn't give me the variation I
want when I move around on the stage. And I have to move around a lot,
between guitar, percussion, harp, and vocals. My bottom line is, if I'm less
than a foot from a guitarist (in front of his amp) and he can't hear me
talking to him in a (slightly) raised tone of voice, his **** is too loud.
He turns it down or I turn it down for him, and guitarists usually don't
like you tweaking their knobs because they'll lose their "holy grail" tone.
g

If you stand close enough to the stage during our performances, you'll
hear me (at the end of a song) telling a guitar, bass, or key player to turn
down if the volume starts to creep. They've gotten to the point that they
listen to me, because otherwise I'll just walk over and start turning knobs
counter-clockwise until I like the volume, and that always ****es them off.
So they listen and do it themselves rather than having to jack with their
knobs for the whole next set to get their tone back. When we have someone
running FOH for us, their word is law when it comes to volume. If the sound
guy says it needs to come down, it comes down. If that makes your tone suck,
all I can say is buy a smaller amp.

ryanm

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

Way too simple - lol. Nice when the band are actually disciplined enough
to do
it though.

It's really not that hard. It's not like it requires a *lot* of
discipline, just start out fairly quiet and don't touch the volume knob
unless the guy running the mix says to. More volume can only turn small
problems into big problems. Less is more. It's unfortunate that many
musicians can't or won't understand that, though. Of course I hate most
musicians by default, because on the average, most musicians are worthless,
lazy, wastes of life.

You know how to get a guitarist off your door step?

Pay for the pizza...

ryanm

ryanm wrote:

Of course I hate most
musicians by default, because on the average, most musicians are worthless,
lazy, wastes of life.

Whoa there, ease off a bit...

A half stack is too loud for anything short of an arena, too. The
Black
Crowes tour with 18-30 watt combo amps, and they put on a *loud* rock
show.
The only reason you would ever want a half stack, or any amp that is
larger
than 50 watts, for guitar in a smaller than arena-sized venue is to
compensate for having a small penis. Or not being able to play guitar.

Well, I CAN play guitar and I don't have a small penis. So why do I like my
Marshall half stack?

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
ryanm wrote:

Of course I hate most
musicians by default, because on the average, most musicians are
worthless,
lazy, wastes of life.

Whoa there, ease off a bit...

Most of the musicians I know are great people. Maybe he should get some
better clients...

If you stand close enough to the stage during our performances, you'll
hear me (at the end of a song) telling a guitar, bass, or key player to
turn
down if the volume starts to creep. They've gotten to the point that they
listen to me, because otherwise I'll just walk over and start turning
knobs
counter-clockwise until I like the volume, and that always ****es them
off.

It would **** me off, too. Touch my knobs and you'll draw back a nub. What a
****ing control freak you are. If you don't like the way a guitarist sounds,
say something. If you still don't like it, get another guitarist.

So they listen and do it themselves rather than having to jack with their
knobs for the whole next set to get their tone back. When we have someone
running FOH for us, their word is law when it comes to volume. If the
sound
guy says it needs to come down, it comes down. If that makes your tone
suck,
all I can say is buy a smaller amp.

There are some tones that you can't get with a small amp. I like the sound
of a Marshall 4X12. You can't get the same tone with a smaller amp, period.