"steve" wrote in message
...
It was a few post's back in this thread, but it was another poster who
said most of our laws come by way of religion.


and Love, compassion, judgment, right and wrong existied long before man
invented God
George

Thanks; will read it. -jb



steve wrote:

go for it http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-00/12-31-00/e05li127.htm

According to the latest polls, Bush is sinking fast and his "just give
me $87 Billion more dollars" speech ****ed people off as much as it
did me, as he can't seem to find any money to invest in this
country.......... http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...lls/index.html

Wesley Clark would handily beat Bush at this point, and Kerry would
tie him. The country is clearly looking for leadership, and they don't
see it from Bush.

J_West

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
we can't know for sure what's going on in another nonhuman
primate's head, but they don't seem to manifest any of the behaviors we
usually
associate with religion.

So I'm not sure we can *know* that love, compassion, judgment, right and
wrong
existed before humans worshipped god/s, but given the above, it seems
like a
good probability.

I understand...without language we can "know" nothing..which is what
really
makes humans unique..a language system that can be translated and
understood...and before anyone jumps on me with the studies of other
species
communicating..I am speaking of language and the ability to pass on
testable
information to others that lets beings who have never personally
interacted to
exchange knowledge..
I would hope that love, compassion..etc is a normal instictual
programming..I
often see less than abundant evidence in many humans.

I for one hope that God was not created by man to sole give rise to greed ,
averice,bigotry,and war
I would hope man invented God for a much better reason and only after God
became established as the giver of foods,health,life did man turn him to his
own selfish desires
George

I'd give it to environmental organisations, I'd use it to develop non polluting
technologies, I'd use it to
pay teachers and fund education, I'd use it to help senior citizens and to fund
social security and national health and I'd use it to sterilize Republicans
and Christian Fundamentalists.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

I'd use it to sterilize Republicans
and Christian Fundamentalists.


make that ALL religious fundamentalists of any stripe.

I'd also use it to fund arts programs.

Whatever's left over I'd use to invade Texas.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

From: (Mark Steven Brooks)


Whatever's left over I'd use to invade Texas.

Born in Connecticut. Another constant innacuracy. --Tom Paterson

From: (Mark Steven Brooks)

What innacuracy?

W is a Texan. He's not, at least by birth. Is that what you're asking? --TP

W is a Texan. He's not, at least by birth. Is that what you're asking? --TP



I wasn't necessarily refering to Bush in my little joke. BTW-Wasn't he born in
Maine?
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

I beg to differ. Language isn't necessary, unless language can be
attributed to the greater apes or even lesser primates such as baboons in
their grunts and groans, yelps and antics (and I do not contend that this
isn't language). Understanding of conditions isn't necessarily an
understanding of language. In Africa there is a "go away" bird, which is
only funny because when this bird says "go away" all animals in the vicinity
know that a predator is stalking in the bush, and they immediately seek
shelter. Why it's funny is that the bird happens to be saying "go away" in
English, and truthfully it does sound like "go away". But what is really
curious is we are talking about a simplistic form of communications that is
trans-species, and it has the exact same meaning to all. That is something
far more concise in it's simplicity than the convoluted method of
communications developed by man to relay history, beliefs and day-to-day
information. While the goal of language is perhaps a clarity in
communications, the price is an abundance of definitions of terms that
separately, and in conjuction with others, convolutes meanings. It's the
convolution of meanings that leaves the question of god's existence up to
ridicule, not the development of language that proves god exists.

Sorry, John, but man is not alone on this world, nor anything but a very
recent development. To bolster one argument by discounting millions more
years of animal existence simply cuts the argument into pieces. When a
piece of information fits a theory, then one needs to expand the test to see
if the information continues to fit the theory.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
we can't know for sure what's going on in another nonhuman
primate's head, but they don't seem to manifest any of the behaviors we
usually
associate with religion.

So I'm not sure we can *know* that love, compassion, judgment, right and
wrong
existed before humans worshipped god/s, but given the above, it seems
like a
good probability.

I understand...without language we can "know" nothing..which is what
really
makes humans unique..a language system that can be translated and
understood...and before anyone jumps on me with the studies of other
species
communicating..I am speaking of language and the ability to pass on
testable
information to others that lets beings who have never personally
interacted to
exchange knowledge..
I would hope that love, compassion..etc is a normal instictual
programming..I
often see less than abundant evidence in many humans.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

I remember studing Darwin's theory and discussing whether these traits
are learned or instinctive (being passed along and necessary for
survival of the species)

Most species function much better in some sort of a society, so
anti-social behavior is counter-productive to survival. Religion seems
to be invented to address many social needs human society has. But
modern society has much more complex needs than can be addressed by
current religion, even though some people think their religion has all
the answers. We must find a new way to deal with our social problems.

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

Mostly because of archaeological discoveries and anthrophological studies.
As far back as the caves of South Africa at a time when man couldn't really
be called man they revered the dead and buried them with the dead's favorite
tools and belongings, flowers, etc. At worst they were offerings by the
living for the use of the dead, which is even a higher level of compassion
considering they might be giving something up that would be necessary for
their own survival.

There is evidence that they also cared for the infirmed rather than leaving
them to their fates, which to a large degree has been almost universally
common amongst mammals and even birds, along with some suggestions, again
coming from archaeological discoveries, that dinosaur parents exhibit
purposeful compassion, chosing to die with their young rather than save
themselves and leave. Elephants of today exhibit compassion for the
infirmed, chosing to urge the sickly on or staying by their side until
absolute necessity drives them.

In just the animal kingdom today there are examples of rogue elements of
lion society being "judged" and sent forth to fend for themselves, or in
chimps where it's obvious that the use of disdain is directed at the same
thing. Forced separation from the group is certainly an exhibited ability
to judge and respond to that judgement.

Point being that it didn't take until modern man came upon the scene before
these "concepts" took hold. They are inherent in man because they are
inherent in most complex warmblooded livebearing lifeforms we have been able
to study, either directly or via fossil history. The fact that most large
cats are not just decent parents, but loving parents suggests that man's
comprehension of these concepts to the point of being able to write them
down and attribute them to some unseen "god" is simply a manner used to pass
on these same traits. A pride of lions may well have developed the society
they ended up with in the effort to maintain survivability, but the fact
that they lovingly play with their offspring and painstakingly teach them
belies such base level evolutionary necessities.

However, these observed facts don't necessarily discount that some "god"
indeed incorporated such activities and gained knowledge in man via some
divine plan. It does, however, make very clear that only man could codify
such concepts into guidelines and laws attributable to some greater being
whether that being's existence is real or not.

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
and Love, compassion, judgment, right and wrong existied long before man
invented God

Hey George,
Since most early history refers to God/s..how would we know this?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

Why?

So we could privatize Barton Springs.

What are you gonna do with a piece of dirt that big? Open a
salvage yard? Let's just give it back to Mexico.

I think they want all of it 'cept Dallas-Ft. Worth.

--
ha

Neither is HW. He simply moved into a Texas hotel for a few days to
establish residency in order to evade paying income taxes WHILE he was
President. So much for find the Corporate America criminals who would rob
from the poor and give to themselves. Gives one pause to think about how
many corporations have moved their corporate headquarters offshore and yet
still seem to get large government contracts that aren't subject to any
taxes, doesn't it. Especially after all the hullabuloo on the talking head
circuit about how these companies should be banned from any government
contracting work. These people know full well that most Americans will
simply go back to work the next day and forget about it because they have
their own worldly problems, which, btw, directly affect their ability to
have their families live comfortably, so who the **** cares that these PAC
stuffing companies actually move their corporate headquarters offshore or
not.

True Americans, which means 99.999% of us, simply get played day by day with
hype being the thought of the day and the status quo being the reality.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Tom Paterson" wrote in message
...
From: (Mark Steven Brooks)

What innacuracy?

W is a Texan. He's not, at least by birth. Is that what you're
asking? --TP

I'm thinking $87 billion would be about enough to buy us a new government.

Scott Fraser

Pay Bush and all his gang and have them retired early. World will be
a better place.

Roger W. Norman wrote:

Funny how
all the right wing based shows still are making France out to be some type
of villian. I'm sorry, but I continue to see us as being the villian, and
were this a court of law with a jury, I'm afraid that our attorney would be
saying "you better straighten up and fly right or these guys are going to
send you away".


Also unsettling how dissent is being spun into an unpatriotic activity
even on the floors of Congress these days.

Civilized nations separate the laws of religion from the laws of state

This is a relatively recent development, & is primarily confined to the Western
nations. The rest of the world would probably debate your implication that they
are uncivilized, as opposed to un-Westernized.



Scott Fraser

In article
(ScotFraser) writes:
[snip]
The French are the real heroes here, for standing up to stupidity & refusing
to
join in.

Scott Fraser

As far as I'm concerned, the country that invented Velveeta, balloon bread and
Champale has _nothing_ about which to criticize France.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

No arguement from me there. I would happily debate the point with any of them that
didn't think I should be killed on the spot because of my genetic and social
heritage. Unfortunately at this point the majority of the planet's population
lives without the benefit of a western education.

Gary

www.betasound.ca

ScotFraser wrote:

Civilized nations separate the laws of religion from the laws of state

This is a relatively recent development, & is primarily confined to the Western
nations. The rest of the world would probably debate your implication that they
are uncivilized, as opposed to un-Westernized.

Scott Fraser

Hey - what about us Canucks?!!

Gary
www.betasound.ca

ScotFraser wrote:

Here's one place that Bush seems to be
ok. He can speak fluent spanish.

I've only heard a few phrases from his mouth in Spanish, but until I heard him
say something beyond "Good day, how y'all doing" in Spanish, I'd use the term
"fluent" cautiously. He's not even fluent in English.

Funny how
all the right wing based shows still are making France out to be some type
of villian.

This is simply because they (the right wing broadcasters) have **** for brains
& don't understand that a true ally sometimes has to tell you when you're
wrong, as France did, & hopefully will continue to do.

I'm sorry, but I continue to see us as being the villian,

The French are the real heroes here, for standing up to stupidity & refusing to
join in.

Scott Fraser

That's true. However, and this may be long in order to bring the totallity
of it back around to the original point, it appears that religion, as a law
giving entity, simply has no basis in fact, while laws given for the
betterment of man have been somewhat universal and accepted since the
inception of laws handed down by Hamarabi. A for instance would be the tale
of the Tower of Babel, where all men spoke a common language (which relates
back to John Chiara's original statements) and decided to build a tower to
better approach the glory of God. God, in his infinite wisdom, deemed it
fit to strike those peoples with an inability to communicate effectively by
having them speak in different languages and thus the Tower of Babel was
never completed.

The obvious here is that if one wants to maintain a certain amount of power
than one simply has to have the ability to represent to all involved God's
will, regardless of their language. It's a basic precept and the object
learned is that one should not assail God on high with a tower to perceive
his glory, but the fact is that once a people begin to think they can
achieve such glorious heights they obviously threaten the selfsame God they
chose to approach in physical form. Hence, it has become a standard that
there is "one" who knows the will of God and can thusly expound on the
virtues of this endeavor in the name of God, and cast down the audacity of
that endeavor in the name of God. And it has always since been that some
"chosen" one is the holder of the key to the gates of heaven. Even Jesus
alluded to the fact that he was the key and the one true way to God.

I don't know of any written text earlier that gives a tribal shaman more
power than this particular story. I do know of a corollary in that there
are some religions today, passed down for tens and even hundreds of
centuries, that specify the only true word of God is speaking in tongues,
again that being something unknown to any human being. Unless it's an
angelic language, it's a reason to spout **** and have it come up smelling
like roses.

So what you refer to as a relatively recent development primarily confined
to Western culture, all that has come before 1500 years ago in terms of
religious beliefs is based on a lack of knowledge of Western culture or even
of a place called the "West". Even the Native Americans of 1500 years ago
didn't have the same types of beliefs, and they were truly Western.

One has to consistently look at the history involved in order to understand
the current usage. Jesus was a scholar and certainly knew his scripture.
When, on Palm Friday, he rode into Jerusalem on the back of a white ass he
KNEW he was making a declaration that would bring down the wrath of both the
hebrew religious hierarchy and of Pilot. He was making a messianic
statement, proclaiming himself God's chosen conqueror of Rome in Judea. His
proclamation by visual aid was not lost on anyone.

But again we see one person proclaiming themselves the one true interpretor
of God's will. And thus it has always been and thus it will always be.

In other words, the word of God, the divineness of one's life in pursuit of
God's good graces, the possibility that one can meet God on one's own terms
is all moot because there are none that are pure of heart to lead their
people to the graces of God. Perhaps because he doesn't want it that way,
or perhaps more simply, because there is no "he".

But there's plenty of evidence that suggests that those who work in "his"
mysterious ways have some ulterior motive.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...
Civilized nations separate the laws of religion from the laws of state


This is a relatively recent development, & is primarily confined to the
Western
nations. The rest of the world would probably debate your implication that
they
are uncivilized, as opposed to un-Westernized.



Scott Fraser

****, westerners live without the benefit of a westerner's education! g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Gary Koliger" wrote in message
...
No arguement from me there. I would happily debate the point with any of
them that
didn't think I should be killed on the spot because of my genetic and
social
heritage. Unfortunately at this point the majority of the planet's
population
lives without the benefit of a western education.

Gary

www.betasound.ca

ScotFraser wrote:

Civilized nations separate the laws of religion from the laws of
state

This is a relatively recent development, & is primarily confined to the
Western
nations. The rest of the world would probably debate your implication
that they
are uncivilized, as opposed to un-Westernized.

Scott Fraser

Excellent, Jay. French product boycott my ass. I like cheese and I realize
there are American cheeses as good as any country's, but don't make me have
to come down and beat some dumbasses head in because I have no fear of the
French. ****, I'm a direct descendant of William the Conqueror or at least
my family tree says so. I damned sure have conquerored my studio! g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Jay Kadis" wrote in message
...
In article

(ScotFraser) writes:
[snip]
The French are the real heroes here, for standing up to stupidity &
refusing
to
join in.

Scott Fraser

As far as I'm concerned, the country that invented Velveeta, balloon bread
and
Champale has _nothing_ about which to criticize France.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

LOL

Gary
www.betasound.ca

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

****, westerners live without the benefit of a westerner's education! g

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.

"Gary Koliger" wrote in message
...
No arguement from me there. I would happily debate the point with any of
them that
didn't think I should be killed on the spot because of my genetic and
social
heritage. Unfortunately at this point the majority of the planet's
population
lives without the benefit of a western education.

Gary

www.betasound.ca

ScotFraser wrote:

Civilized nations separate the laws of religion from the laws of
state

This is a relatively recent development, & is primarily confined to the
Western
nations. The rest of the world would probably debate your implication
that they
are uncivilized, as opposed to un-Westernized.

Scott Fraser

And that statement just shows a tremendous amount of stupidity my friend.
Let's see, the US supported the French Resistence with both information and
with weapons, but unfortunately, the weapons were ones of stealth, so we
sent in some 18 million $1.50 .45 caliber single shot handguns via parachute
drops. Seems to me that those who's lives were on the line with one single
****ing American made cheap gun with one ****ing American made cheap bullet
were far braver than most Americans today wish to give them credit for, and
possible far more brave than ANY of the President's cabinet posts today.

America couldn't have liberated France without the French Resistence. In
fact, the war with Germany wouldn't have been won the way it was without the
French Resistence. Don't get caught up in the Steve and ED hyperbole. They
have the brains of a slug during an assault of salt. In fact, I don't
believe I've ever seen them without their "me, me, me, mine" hats on. Go to
France, buy French wine and cheese, stop by the cemetaries in Normandy and
around the country. Then give me a report.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"ryanm" wrote in message
...
"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...

The French are the real heroes here, for standing up to stupidity &
refusing to
join in.

Any appearance of heroism on the part of the French would've been an
accident caused by the confusion of not knowing who to surrender to.

ryanm

You misunderstood. The dollars I'm talking about ARE the ones that come out
of the American taxpayer's pockets, so the dollars have everything to do
with it. Remember, matching funds in Presidential elections, and most
states have the same thing for state elections. In effect, the way the law
is written, the person that raises the most money is getting the most money
from the people, who may or may not actually believe in the platform of the
most monied participant.

As to my Bush rewards, at 52, I think it has a totally different meaning.
Something to do with someone far more shapely than the current Bush, if you
catch my drift.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...
Well, then I suggest that Bill Gates is pretty damned close to being
able to
afford himself his own government, don't you think?

Sure, I'll take Gates over Dubya any day. Gates has proven himself to
actually
be competent at something. See, out here in California, we seem to have
the
idea that all you need to attain high office is lots of money, so, sure,
Gates
must be the man for me.

The dollars have
nothing to do with the people, except it comes out of the people's
pockets.

Roger, I hate to have to break it to you, but the dollars NEVER had
anything to
do with the people. The dollars are only there to propel Bush's agenda,
which
is solely & exclusively to increase the comfort of the wealthy folks who
bought
him his current job, & the couple previous jobs he sort of had..

You tell me, and I'm not being argumentative here, just where the ****
did
Bush expect to see the returns on this ADDITIONAL $87 Billion

By handsomely paying his good rich buddies a lot of money that us common
folk
had intentions of spending on education, healthcare & preserving nature.
Sorry,
Roger, if you didn't invest your billions in making sure Bush got to sit
in the
big chair, you're just not going to be getting the rewards.




Scott Fraser

"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...

The French are the real heroes here, for standing up to stupidity &
refusing to
join in.

Any appearance of heroism on the part of the French would've been an
accident caused by the confusion of not knowing who to surrender to.

ryanm

Roger W. Norman wrote:

Perhaps having something to say ABOUT something rather than about someone's
writing causes me to go beyond your limit of endurance. Plonk me in your
filter and don't worry about it. Believe me, I actually go through the
posts line by line before I send them.



It isn't that I mind your long posts so much, sometimes I have a little
time on my hands. But often I don't have a clue who or what you are
responding to. I like to know that before I start reading your post, it
makes a bit more sense that way.

Not trying to pick on you, just an observation g

tojo wrote in message . ..

Pay Bush and all his gang and have them retired early. World will be
a better place.

If Bush loses in the upcoming election, and that looks increasingly
likely, I think he will go down in history as one of the worst
Presidents ever........"A Miserable Failure" as Dick Gephart put it,
during the recent debate.

Johnston West wrote:

"A Miserable Failure" as Dick Gephart put it,
during the recent debate.

And what exactly has Mr. Gephart done for us, other than riding along
the "winds" whichever way they happen to be blowing?

Even Jesus
alluded to the fact that he was the key and the one true way to God.


Yeah, but he was drunk at the time.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

In article ,
(Mark Steven Brooks) wrote:

Even Jesus
alluded to the fact that he was the key and the one true way to God.

we know this cause some time about 400 years after jesus died some man
added this to the bible
the bible is a nice story book but in no way shape form or manner is
it "Gods" word it is the words of man shoved into "Gods" mouth
(hundreds of men over hunderds of years each with a personal agenda to
promote)

That was my point, George. It's a matter of developing language, not so
much to communicate, but control communication. The more precise a language
gets the more convoluted it can become, but the more generalized it is used,
the more it can be made to work to one's advantage. Obviously there are
those in power right now that understand this and apply it very well. By
not including some serious facts, France can easily be made to look very
evil indeed to the unwashed masses. It's a matter of context.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"George" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Mark Steven Brooks) wrote:

Even Jesus
alluded to the fact that he was the key and the one true way to God.

we know this cause some time about 400 years after jesus died some man
added this to the bible
the bible is a nice story book but in no way shape form or manner is
it "Gods" word it is the words of man shoved into "Gods" mouth
(hundreds of men over hunderds of years each with a personal agenda to
promote)

As to my Bush rewards, at 52, I think it has a totally different meaning.
Something to do with someone far more shapely than the current Bush, if you
catch my drift.


Hey, we've got a couple gubernatorial candidates that might ring your bell.


Scott Fraser

So what you refer to as a relatively recent development primarily confined
to Western culture, all that has come before 1500 years ago in terms of
religious beliefs is based on a lack of knowledge of Western culture or even
of a place called the "West".

Well, what I'm referring to is the separation of secular power from the
ecumenical power of theocracy, which dates back about 500 years ago to
developments in England.

Even the Native Americans of 1500 years ago
didn't have the same types of beliefs, and they were truly Western.

No, they're truly aboriginal. Western with a capital W refers to European-based
culture, as derived from Hellenic Greece, & includes such non-European former
colonies as the USA.



Scott Fraser

As far as I'm concerned, the country that invented Velveeta, balloon bread
and
Champale has _nothing_ about which to criticize France.


Hear, hear!


Scott Fraser

Any appearance of heroism on the part of the French would've been an
accident caused by the confusion of not knowing who to surrender to.


Any appearance you may have given to having the slightest clue as to what the
**** you're talking about is purely coincidental.


Scott Fraser

Hey - what about us Canucks?!!

Included in the 99% of the world that had the brains & the guts to stay out of
where they didn't belong. Canucks rock!


Scott Fraser

If Bush loses in the upcoming election, and that looks increasingly
likely, I think he will go down in history as one of the worst
Presidents ever.

On the other hand, if he wins the next election, (or loses but is still
declared the rightful president again) he will go down in history as one of the
worst presidents ever.


Scott Fraser

Point being that it didn't take until modern man came upon the scene before
these "concepts" took hold.

However, these observed facts don't necessarily discount that some "god"
indeed incorporated such activities and gained knowledge in man via some
divine plan. It does, however, make very clear that only man could codify
such concepts into guidelines and laws attributable to some greater being
whether that being's existence is real or not.


I agree..my point was that until language developed the concept of "concepts"
couldn't exist. I'm just exploring the premise of language as the ultimate
context for human beings and observing how everything fits inside this
context...the only time I've found this to hold.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637