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The damping factor and the sound of real music



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 29th 07, 09:25 PM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
Andre Jute
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Posts: 1,661
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

Yo, anonymous , are you the same clown who earlier
this week displayed a mountainous inferiority complex by sending us
your complete curriculum vitae and then becoming so flustered you
forgot to sign it? This sort of ignorant crap won't make us think any
more kindly of your supposed "qualifications".

On Dec 29, 5:12*pm, " > wrote:
> Thank you Jim for adding some sanity to this discussion. *The Quad 63
> series is indeed a phased array intended to mimic a point source at an
> assumed distance. *At least that's how Peter Walker described it to me
> back in 1979.
>
> As an aside, the following paragraph is perhaps the silliest things
> ever written about Quads:
>
> "Put a single ESL63 or derivative -- minimum case, yeah? one speaker
> only, okay? -- in the middle of an empty room. Play music. Stand in
> front of the speaker. Hear the point source. Walk around the music.
> Hear the point source on the other side of the speaker. So what do
> you
> have? One speaker, two point sources."
>
> Apparently Andre never learned the definition of a point in middle
> school.


Either the Quad ESL63 is a real point source, which you have already
denied, or a faux point source. If it is a faux point source, then it
doesn't need to answer to the theoretical parameters of a real point
source, the particular parameter under discussion here being that it
must be a singularity.

It seems to me, anonymous emmaco, that when Mr Walker explained the
principle of his speaker to you, you salivated so much at the prospect
of dropping his name that the liquid got into your ears and interfered
with your hearing. The only alternative explanation is that you're
claiming that Peter Walker lied about the physics of his speaker. Who
will believe that from some American public address rigger?

> Of course even that would be a pointless discussion...


Oh, I don't think so. You are too much given, anonymous emmaco, to
uttering dumb sweeping statements and then hiding behind your
"qualifications" when people laugh at your stupidities. So here it is
again, offered for you to *prove* the contrary if you can:

"Put a single ESL63 or derivative -- minimum case, yeah? one speaker
only, okay? -- in the middle of an empty room. Play music. Stand in
front of the speaker. Hear the point source. Walk around the music.
Hear the point source on the other side of the speaker. So what do you
have? One speaker, two point sources." -- Andre Jute

If you have access to a Quad ESL from the -63 forward, I suggest that
before you make a fool of yourself again, you try the experiment
either with your ears, if they aren't deaf yet from testing your PA
installations, or with a meter, if you have one and know how to use
it. There are two point sources as anyone with a Quad ESL63 or later
will tell you. They are empirically confirmable -- in SoCalSpeak:
listen with your own ears, sonny.

> Remember Zappa's Law: *There are two constants in the universe:
> hydrogen and stupidity.


Goes double for blustering clowns from Southern California, as we can
see here.

Andre Jute
"I was at a board meeting for the LA Chapter of the Audio Engineering
Society last night on XM Satellite radio audio and data transmission.
Sadly, we missed you there, and at the SMPTE and Acoustical Society
recent meetings as well. Everyone was asking, 'Where is that wonderful
Andre Jute? The world just doesn't rotate without him...'" -- John
Mayberry, Emmaco
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  #2  
Old December 30th 07, 08:21 PM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
[email protected]
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Posts: 15
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

I'm hardly anonymous Jute, and you conveniently forget to add that you
asked me to send my CV in our last exchange. Regardless of your silly
shots, the qualifications are real.
For you to claim you don't know who I am is ridiculous.

Yet if by some odd chance you can qualify for a free industry
magazine, you could read my monthly columns in Live Sound
International, or buy a compilation book of my last 13 years of
columns at http://www.lulu.com/content/806117. There's apparently
is a reason I get paid to write about audio irrespective of the
continuing cheap shots you take at my credentials.

None of the Quad speakers are a real point source (why Walker
developed the Balls), which 99% of the thread readers probably already
knew at the start of this thread. The 63 and its successors mimic an
ideal sphere using a sequential delay lines radiating out
concentrically from a center area. Hence the 11 miles of coil
windings in each one. That would be something the rest of the
audiophile world has already known for roughly 25 years now.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...16/index6.html

Why one would want to stack one radiating sphere on top of another
other to approximate two unique point sources alludes me. That being
said, I actually did hook up two set of Quads (top pair 63's on Arcici
stands, bottom pair 988s as you suggest. Plays louder, distorts the
image- not very surprising. Defeats the whole point of the speaker to
begin with...

Would someone just take Jute's keyboard away please?

Currently listening to the Quad Knole harpsichord CD which Ross gave
me years ago... still stunning. I've never had a great deal of
success adding a sub to the 63's, but always hoped it would work out
well. I'm very please to hear it can.







  #3  
Old December 30th 07, 11:32 PM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
Andre Jute
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,661
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

anonymous " wrote:
> I'm hardly anonymous Jute,


Sigh. Your letter is still unsigned, sonny, and I still don't know who
you are. Why don't you tell me before I lose interest in yet another
clown rolling into RAT like a snowball into hell, soon to be another
damb squib.

>and you conveniently forget to add that you
> asked me to send my CV in our last exchange. *


I did? I must have forgotten that sarcasm, the crudest wit of all, is
mistaken for flattery by the coarser kind of ugly American.

This is as far as I read. This is what a signature looks like:

Andre Jute
Sometimes it includes a witty remark, like this:
SoCal PA riggers need not apply



>Regardless of your silly
> shots, the qualifications are real.
> For you to claim you don't know who I am is ridiculous.
>
> Yet if by some odd chance you can qualify for a free industry
> magazine, you could read my monthly columns in Live Sound
> International, or buy a compilation book of my last 13 years of
> columns athttp://www.lulu.com/content/806117. * *There's apparently
> is a reason I get paid to write about audio irrespective of the
> continuing cheap shots you take at my credentials.
>
> None of the Quad speakers are a real point source (why Walker
> developed the Balls), which 99% of the thread readers probably already
> knew at the start of this thread. *The 63 and its successors mimic an
> ideal sphere using a sequential delay lines radiating out
> concentrically from a center area. * Hence the 11 miles of coil
> windings in each one. *That would be something the rest of the
> audiophile world has already known for roughly 25 years now.
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...16/index6.html
>
> Why one would want to stack one radiating sphere on top of another
> other to approximate two unique point sources alludes me. * That being
> said, I actually did hook up two set of Quads (top pair 63's on Arcici
> stands, bottom pair 988s as you suggest. *Plays louder, distorts the
> image- not very surprising. *Defeats the whole point of the speaker to
> begin with...
>
> Would someone just take Jute's keyboard away please?
>
> Currently listening to the Quad Knole harpsichord CD which Ross gave
> me years ago... *still stunning. *I've never had a great deal of
> success adding a sub to the 63's, but always hoped it would work out
> well. * I'm very please to hear it can.


  #5  
Old December 31st 07, 01:16 AM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

My all time favorite speaker is the Hill Plasmatronics 1A, which we're
fortunate enough to own a pair (they only made 60)... They use a
helium/air plasma burn from 700 Hz to about 30 kHz with no frequency
or phase anomalies. I had a good friend at JBL re-engineer the mid
bass and LF sections and we run them in a triamped mode. We use it in
our "all plasma" system with a 50" Panasonic. Here's a pictu
http://hill-plasmatronics.googlegrou...fgpQ-sZU1Fy-pw

We have two other systems in regular use. The second is an all Quad
34/FM4/306 system, which I normally listen to for low level listening
in the wee hours. No longer have any 57s (sold them to my best
friend), but a true fan of the company and products. Also have a pair
of 63's, but they're fragile in comparison to the 988s.
http://lecson-audio.googlegroups.com...wkQDWveO3Dq A

My "favorite system" is fairly unique which may spark a few memories
amongst the old timers. Transcriptor Skeleton with Vestigal/ADC XLM,
Gale GT20101 with SME IIi and Grado cartridge, Lecson AC1, FM1, and
AP1 and AP3 driven Gale GS401A's on the chrome stands. I run a Lecson
Google Group site: http://groups.google.com/group/lecson-audio that
some might find interesting. Stan Curtis is a regular contributor.


A picture of the last system can be found at:
http://lecson-audio.googlegroups.com...iJ7UbTIup-M2XP


As for Andre's comments failings of my signature and being an ugly
American, he may actually be correct about something. I don't
suppose I would win too many beauty contests. I am very proud of
being an American, and hope my children are as well. One suspects
Andre wouldn't be so negative about the world had he grown up in
California; it was bright and sunny again today as it is about 350
days/year. His need to insult my country may be a reflection on his
own limitations.

Although I was Director of Operations for Maryland Sound years ago
(acts like Michael Bolton, Frank Sinatra, George Benson, Neil Diamond,
Pink Floyd, The Cure, etc.), I've never actually "rigged" a PA in my
career. The systems were all precabled and motorized anyway...





  #6  
Old December 31st 07, 01:21 AM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music


I chopped off part of the Lecson system picture link:

http://lecson-audio.googlegroups.com...XXMx-R8xkKUgoQ

  #7  
Old December 31st 07, 02:24 AM posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tubes,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.pro
Jon Yaeger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 645
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

in article ,
at wrote on 12/30/07 8:16 PM:

> My all time favorite speaker is the Hill Plasmatronics 1A, which we're
> fortunate enough to own a pair (they only made 60)... They use a
> helium/air plasma burn from 700 Hz to about 30 kHz with no frequency
> or phase anomalies. I had a good friend at JBL re-engineer the mid
> bass and LF sections and we run them in a triamped mode. We use it in
> our "all plasma" system with a 50" Panasonic. Here's a pictu
>
http://hill-plasmatronics.googlegrou...stem%20Reduced
> .JPG?gda=m7UOVFAAAABcRP0t-ygC4jGXPczmESS1iADB4csoaMJpc1sRLkQSmmG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2
> XPURDQ1CSSbH_eQTtIk0qaXEhiK5Ac-iRnyfgpQ-sZU1Fy-pw
>
> We have two other systems in regular use. The second is an all Quad
> 34/FM4/306 system, which I normally listen to for low level listening
> in the wee hours. No longer have any 57s (sold them to my best
> friend), but a true fan of the company and products. Also have a pair
> of 63's, but they're fragile in comparison to the 988s.
> http://lecson-audio.googlegroups.com...?gda=fvCmO0QAA
> AAEOH9TvB6svVkOnZ2u0FwjxAr_KF4okcWUafUAs7PR_mG1qiJ 7UbTIup-M2XPURDQwkRvgQ0Z3sDg
> qSdQQDR05IdEAhumLrGwkQDWveO3DqA
>
> My "favorite system" is fairly unique which may spark a few memories
> amongst the old timers. Transcriptor Skeleton with Vestigal/ADC XLM,
> Gale GT20101 with SME IIi and Grado cartridge, Lecson AC1, FM1, and
> AP1 and AP3 driven Gale GS401A's on the chrome stands. I run a Lecson
> Google Group site: http://groups.google.com/group/lecson-audio that
> some might find interesting. Stan Curtis is a regular contributor.
>
>
> A picture of the last system can be found at:
> http://lecson-audio.googlegroups.com...=Ruj2kEIAAAAEO
> H9TvB6svVkOnZ2u0FwjxAr_KF4okcWUafUAs7PR_mG1qiJ7UbT Iup-M2XP
>
>
> As for Andre's comments failings of my signature and being an ugly
> American, he may actually be correct about something. I don't
> suppose I would win too many beauty contests. I am very proud of
> being an American, and hope my children are as well. One suspects
> Andre wouldn't be so negative about the world had he grown up in
> California; it was bright and sunny again today as it is about 350
> days/year. His need to insult my country may be a reflection on his
> own limitations.
>
> Although I was Director of Operations for Maryland Sound years ago
> (acts like Michael Bolton, Frank Sinatra, George Benson, Neil Diamond,
> Pink Floyd, The Cure, etc.), I've never actually "rigged" a PA in my
> career. The systems were all precabled and motorized anyway...
>
>


Emmaco,

Very impressive toy collections! Thanks for sharing.

I've been curious about the plasma technology since I read an article in
Radio-Electronics or Popular Electronics about an experimental plasma
speaker (I think I still have the article around here somewhere).

Obviously the plasma speakers are rare and cool. But are they also
sonically superior, and if so, why?

Don't mean to pester . . . but I'm very curious, since I don't think I'll
come across a pair.

Thanks

Jon





  #8  
Old December 31st 07, 04:38 PM posted to uk.rec.audio, rec.audio.tubes, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.pro
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default The damping factor and the sound of real music

Why is a properly implemented plasma speaker so much better?

The only mass they have is the media itself (air/helium mixture) would
be the simplest answer. We're currently working on a Hill Google
Group, which isn't ready for prime time yet. Nonetheless, check out
this frequency and phase response measurement:

http://hill-plasmatronics.googlegrou...qn3un8nKr9-w11

From 1000 Hz to 30 kHz, there is no other drive I've ever seen that
even comes close. This is from an actual unit in a living room using
a B&K calibrated mic. The impulse response (ETC) is as perfect as
I've ever seen.

The Plasmatronics system allows you to play tricks on people that are
remarkable. It sounds like the real thing- not a recording on a pair
of speakers- something the Quad stuff occasionally hints at but never
really holds on to you for dear life. The plasma music transcends
the technology; close your eyes and it triggers your brain into
thinking you're actually involved in an event. Very difficult to
describe without being mocked, and with the angry man lurking about
I'll leave it at that...

There are a number of rumors about the Hill system that are
ridiculous. Many are ozone related and perpetuated by those never
having owned or even heard a set. I do tend to wear sunglasses while
listening for the same reason welders do and you have to refill the
helium tanks every hundred hours or so...



 




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