In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.

Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his
name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down"
names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left
unpunished by you. Stop lying.

Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of
"having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference:



You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn.

At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with.

Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch"
comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it
was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment.

"Arny Krueger" said:


So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.


Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his
name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down"
names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left
unpunished by you. Stop lying.


Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of
"having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference:



You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn.

At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with.


So saying "geez Mike, having your thong in a bunch?" actually means
"agreeing that he is an idiot"?
Only on planet Krueger, I suppose? ;-)

Besides, Art didn't say that, Jenn did.
Get yer facts straight, mr. Krueger!

--

- Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. -

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

Jenn said:

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote:

"Clyde Slick" said:


did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.


So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up
on
Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more
for some of them.


Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on
Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want
to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no
good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying.


To make matters worse, the only person using the word "idiot" is the
person Arny claims is getting abused.

Follow the attributions:

beginquote--------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------

wrote in message
oups.com...

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
...

In article .com,
" wrote:


Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


Geeze Mike; your thong in a bunch tonight?
(Your name is Mike, isn't it? I've only seen derivatives of it here,
and I don't care to participate in that. If I have your name wrong,
sorry.)


His name is Mike McKelvey.


No it isn't.


did I spell it wrong?

Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because
he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL

Jenn said:


Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because
he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL


Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from reality each day
is not a pretty sight.

--

- Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. -

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.

Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him
his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put
down" names that are used here. Once again, no good
deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying.

Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art
that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch"
Here's the reference:



You should be more careful about what you agree with,
Jenn.

At the very least you should edit out the things you
don't agree with.

Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in
a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging
up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his
posts at that moment.

Oh yeah, "I'm not insulting him, I'm just describing him".

Any neutral observer should be laughing his butt off at this thread. His
(printable) response might be: "Pot:kettle:black"

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.

Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him
his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put
down" names that are used here. Once again, no good
deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying.

Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art
that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch"
Here's the reference:



You should be more careful about what you agree with,
Jenn.

At the very least you should edit out the things you
don't agree with.

Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in
a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging
up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his
posts at that moment.

Oh yeah, "I'm not insulting him, I'm just describing him".

Any neutral observer should be laughing his butt off at this thread. His
(printable) response might be: "Pot:kettle:black"

Indeed, the observer should be laughing; laughing at the fact that a
"thong in a bunch" comment to someone calling another person an IDIOT
should be viewed by someone as "ganging up".

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
Jenn said:


Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in
a bunch" because he called someone an idiot, that is
called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL


Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from
reality each day is not a pretty sight.

No insult taken, Sander.

It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade
ruse.

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.

Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his
name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down"
names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left
unpunished by you. Stop lying.

Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him
of
"having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference:



You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn.

At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with.

Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch"
comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it
was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment.

And it was a mild but accurate description of his posts at the moment. I
was more or less wondering the same thing.

"Arny Krueger" said:

Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from
reality each day is not a pretty sight.


No insult taken, Sander.


Good, because that was not intended.
I merely feel sorry for you.


It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade
ruse.


I can't go around saying in every post that I'm half a madman myself,
no?
I expect that to be well known and a prerequisite when reading my
posts ;-)

--

- Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. -

KuckooKrazyBorg whined:

It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade ruse.

Correction, Turdy: Nobody has said you are "emotionally disturbed". The
phrase we'd all agree on is "mentally unbalanced".

Let me know if you need help figuring out the difference.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up
on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or
more for some of them.

Heartwarming or what? ;-)



And where does it say that?



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and
Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an
idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of
them.

Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way
"ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his
name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down"
names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left
unpunished by you. Stop lying.

Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him
of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference:


Not me!!
I never used that term.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade
ruse.


my opponent is flat out insane.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:01:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" said:

His name is Mike McKelvey.

No it isn't.

did I spell it wrong?


Yep. It's Michael McKelvy.

So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on
Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more
for some of them.

Heartwarming or what? ;-)

Well, criticism has never affected you or caused you to change in any
way, Arnie. What makes you think it will have any effect on Mike?

"Jenn" wrote in message
...

Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because
he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL

Wait a sec.... I missed a gang wedgie?

Just when I thought this thread had nothing further of interest.

ScottW

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:24:04 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Pure BS Arny. Jenn has said she prefers really good LP's over most CD's,

all CDs -- at least, all she's heard -- really.

To be accurate, I've stated this in terms of timbres only.

Jenn, I hope you realize that all statements on RAO are blanket
statements. There's no room for equivocation here.

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago.
*Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by
modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior
format.

Arny when will you grasp that preferences and cultural choices
are not subject to an opinion poll.

When you will people stop claiming he does things that he doesn't do?

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking
Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something
he hasn't.
Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from
a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking
preference.

And while there
is an element of "anachrophilia" about a preference for LPs
almost a quarter century after the launch of CD, it is a fact
that sales of LP playback equipment are increasing.
Admittedly from a low base, but the etnhusiasm is real.

And sad. What rational person wants to hear more distortion and noise when
they could jut hear music?

Of course going from .0001% of the audio sales market to .0002% is not
something to get all excited about.

On the subject iof string sound on CD that provoked Arny
Krueger's crusade, the violin sound on the new Harmonia
Mundi SACD of Tchaikovsky's Symphony 6 is good as I
as have ever heard from LP.



You mean they deliberately added layers of distortion and tried to remove it
from the original master by dubbing it off to analog a couple of
generations?

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

Based on the small and subtle audio issues she does pick up and deal with
on the job, I'd say that listening to vinyl would literally send her out of
the room, screaming.

And while there
is an element of "anachrophilia" about a preference for
LPs almost a quarter century after the launch of CD, it
is a fact that sales of LP playback equipment are
increasing. Admittedly from a low base, but the
etnhusiasm is real.

Actually, the sales of LPs and presumably LP playback equipment show signs
of topping out and decreasing (see RIAA 2005 stats).

The statistics I've seen never broke down the DJ and Retro-Audio markets. We
do know that the LP playback equipment sales in the DJ market had a
fantastic boom, sometimes exceeding the sales of guitars. However several
digital alternatives do now exist.

In addition, I'm aware of some *everyman* type guys who are digitizing their
LP collections. I suspect that some people are buying new LP playback
equipment for this purpose - the percentages I can only guess at.

And sad. What rational person wants to hear more
distortion and noise when they could just hear music?

There may not be a lot of sales for that purpose. There aren't a lot of
Harry and Jenns.

Of course going from .0001% of the audio sales market to
.0002% is not something to get all excited about.

On the subject iof string sound on CD that provoked Arny
Krueger's crusade, the violin sound on the new Harmonia
Mundi SACD of Tchaikovsky's Symphony 6 is good as I
as have ever heard from LP.



You mean they deliberately added layers of distortion and
tried to remove it from the original master by dubbing it
off to analog a couple of generations?

I don't think so - I think its about people who hear what they've been told
to hear by corrupted sources.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

vlad

In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

vlad wrote:
Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

I am glad you asked.

I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts
from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre.
I did wider search - found your messages on abortion and
homosexuality group but again nothing came to light about your superior
hearing abilities.

So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that:

1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior
hearing abilities,

I don't even know how to do that. I'm sure that it's too difficult,
but I've never had the need to do it.

2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively
exchange on RAHE.

Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians
are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple
mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still
sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can
present you side of the story here.

Sigh... I've never erased anything. Until you mentioned it, I didn't
know that it was possble. That leaves the truth: As demonstrated by
my friend Chung, you THOUGHT that I wrote something that I didn't for
some unknown reason. So all of that was for naught, as usual.

vlad wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

I am glad you asked.

I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts
from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre.

violin sound in particular:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=source&hl=en

"This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls
have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to
confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other
recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather
they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some
recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one
Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb
instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin.
On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off
to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads
in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the
violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much
more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one
bland, "beige". "

May 2005


timbre generally


" I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the
timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical
"logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that
analog gets these things better.

Mike

Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to
have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement"
sense. "


//


and this whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/s986t




So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that:

1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior
hearing abilities,
2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively
exchange on RAHE.


I think you simply need to look harder.


Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians
are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple
mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still
sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can
present you side of the story here.

I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked
that hard for them.




--
-S
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison (1788)

"vlad" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of
people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical
differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained
in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than
I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken
good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is
prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)


Sorry, I thought you were ARny.
So, you are saying that all conductors are hearing dmamged?




--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"vlad" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of
people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical
differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman
about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat
untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better
than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's
taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that
is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender
is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

I am glad you asked.

I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts
from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre.
I did wider search - found your messages on abortion and
homosexuality group but again nothing came to light about your superior
hearing abilities.

So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that:

1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior
hearing abilities,
2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively
exchange on RAHE.

Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians
are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple
mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still
sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can
present you side of the story here.

Happy LP listening.

vlad

There was a very long discussion on the subject of musicans and audiophiles
and how they listen differently and they are mutually exclusive. I don't
recall Jenn's exact participation, but I distinctly recall the discussions.

Perhaps if you contact the moderators, they can point you towards the right
thread(s).

In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote:

vlad wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of
people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical
differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman
about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat
untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better
than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's
taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that
is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender
is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

I am glad you asked.

I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts
from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre.

violin sound in particular:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...beecb7?dmode=s
ource&hl=en

"This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls
have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to
confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other
recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather
they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some
recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one
Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb
instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin.
On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off
to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads
in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the
violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much
more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one
bland, "beige". "

May 2005


timbre generally




" I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the
timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical
"logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that
analog gets these things better.

Mike

Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to
have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement"
sense. "


//


and this whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/s986t




So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that:

1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your
superior
hearing abilities,
2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively
exchange on RAHE.


I think you simply need to look harder.


Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians
are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple
mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still
sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can
present you side of the story here.

I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked
that hard for them.

I've deleted no posts, ever. You can believe me or not; I don't care.

In article
,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote:

vlad wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned
the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15
years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD
is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of
people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being
more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical
differences
while saying that is really self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman
about
Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat
untrained in
some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at
better
than I
can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's
taken good
care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that
is prone
to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender
is,
based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You
are
too close to the orchestra when conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB
level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your
class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

I wonder why this went unanswered...


BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had
from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else?

vlad

I am glad you asked.

I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts
from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre.

violin sound in particular:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...78beecb7?dmode
=s
ource&hl=en

"This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls
have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to
confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other
recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather
they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some
recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one
Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb
instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin.
On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off
to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads
in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the
violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much
more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one
bland, "beige". "

May 2005


timbre generally






" I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the
timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical
"logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that
analog gets these things better.

Mike

Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to
have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement"
sense. "


//


and this whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/s986t




So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that:

1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your
superior
hearing abilities,
2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively
exchange on RAHE.


I think you simply need to look harder.


Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians
are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple
mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still
sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can
present you side of the story here.

I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked
that hard for them.

I've deleted no posts, ever. You can believe me or not; I don't care.

Jenn said:

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

I wonder why this went unanswered...

Merely voicing a preference for non-Hive-approved stuff is an attack.
You've said you like vinyl, the medium that is the apotheosis of Holy
Hivie Accuracy. You might as well have accused Arnii of whoring out the
Kroobitch in a back alley for nickel BJs. ;-)

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson"
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had
abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver"
about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP
format over CD is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare
group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on
LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins
being more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern
technical differences while saying that is really
self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is
a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive
but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do
some things I've trained he to do at better than I can
because her hearing is just that much more sensitive.
She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does
not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but
your gender is, based on your age, is.

I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing
loss due to their work environment.

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
. com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson"
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had
abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver"
about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP
format over CD is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small,
rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about
audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music
on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason
for him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins
being more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern
technical differences while saying that is really
self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church
is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very
sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways.
She can do some things I've trained he to do at
better than I can because her hearing is just that
much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears
and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is
prone to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but
your gender is, based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing
damage. You are too close to the orchestra when
conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't
reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really
shows your class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

Vlad, you made a tactical error. Note that Jenn jumps on your comment about
attacks, thus avoiding serious discussion of the well-known and
well-documented fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due
to their work environment.

wrote in message
ink.net

There was a very long discussion on the subject of
musicans and audiophiles and how they listen differently
and they are mutually exclusive. I don't recall Jenn's
exact participation, but I distinctly recall the
discussions.

I also documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing
damage due to their work environment. Evidence she doesn't want to deal with
sort of disappears around Jenn.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson"
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had
abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver"
about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP
format over CD is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare
group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on
LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for
him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins
being more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern
technical differences while saying that is really
self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is
a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive
but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do
some things I've trained he to do at better than I can
because her hearing is just that much more sensitive.
She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does
not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but
your gender is, based on your age, is.

I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing
loss due to their work environment.

No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states that some concert
musicians suffer hearing loss, not that concert musicians are prone to
hearing loss. Do you see the difference? Concert pianists are not in
any way "prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors. Very, very seldom
do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold for a workday that is
considered to be the danger point. Even in orchestral pits, the most
confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be
minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. Now, violinsts and
violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those instrumentalists
who are damaged, but only in the left ear, for obvious reasons. In
addition, union regs for the past 20 years or so help to guard against
any of this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame, etc. And,
any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while sitting, for example,
near the percussion during Le Sacre.

At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or anyone with a
iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR greater danger of hearing
loss.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
. com,
"vlad" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
ink.net
"John Atkinson"
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world:
Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had
abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver"
about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP
format over CD is abnormal by modern standards.

Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an
objectively inferior format.

Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small,
rare group of people.

Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about
audio.

There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep
attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music
on LP.

Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason
for him to do something he hasn't.

Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins
being more natural from a source laden with noise and
distortion is different than attacking preference.

Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern
technical differences while saying that is really
self-contradictory.

One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church
is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very
sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways.
She can do some things I've trained he to do at
better than I can because her hearing is just that
much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears
and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is
prone to ear damange.

My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but
your gender is, based on your age, is.

But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing
damage. You are too close to the orchestra when
conducting.

Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't
reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position.

Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really
shows your class :-)

And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny?

Vlad, you made a tactical error.

No, his errors we
1. Not showing that my closness to my ensembles produce dB levels what
will endanger my hearing.
2. Not answering a simple question: "In what way did I attack Arny?"
Yet another unfounded allegation.

Note that Jenn jumps on your comment about
attacks, thus avoiding serious discussion of the well-known and
well-documented fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due
to their work environment.

No, I had answered it long ago when you first brought up the topic, and
I did again about 5 mins ago. What I noted was how Vlad failed to
answer my question about attacking you.

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ink.net

There was a very long discussion on the subject of
musicans and audiophiles and how they listen differently
and they are mutually exclusive. I don't recall Jenn's
exact participation, but I distinctly recall the
discussions.

I also documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing
damage due to their work environment.

See previous post.

Evidence she doesn't want to deal with
sort of disappears around Jenn.

LOL

"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com

I've already documented the fact that concert musicians
are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment.

No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states
that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that
concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see
the difference?

As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today.

I came up with more than one study.

The study did say that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss.

However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be due to their work
environment. So, we've got more than one case of correlation, not just the
one case that Jenn has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've
also got explanations for the observations based on the well-known
sensitivity of the human ear to damage by loud ambient sound levels.

Concert pianists are not in any way
"prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors.

Prove it.

Very, very
seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold
for a workday that is considered to be the danger point.

Prove it.

Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

Doing my own reasarch, I find that:

http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html

"The findings are the opposite of those gathered by Alison Wright Reid in a
2001 study for the Association of British Orchestras."

So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No proof except that there
is a controversy.

Now, violinsts and
violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those
instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left
ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for
the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of
this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame,
etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while
sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le
Sacre.

Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence.

At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or
anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR
greater danger of hearing loss.

Prove it.

Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare time:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious explanation is that
the conductor's hearing was done in by a lifetime of facing brass sections
in Wagner and Bruckner."

http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt

"A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and
Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139
orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater than that
expected for their ages."

http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html

"Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director of Opera North, who
has suffered a "dulling" of hearing on one side after 20 years as a trombone
player, thinks not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that is
nice is much easier to endure than loud music that isn't," he said. "High
squeaks are more tiring than louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud
enough to be dangerous."

http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc

In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of Vienna had examined
classical musicians. 87 of 194 examined ears showed signs of noise induced
hearing loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with permanent
tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were found[1]

a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB,
b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB,
c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB
http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf

"An additional finding was that violinists had significantly poorer hearing
in their left ear at the higher frequencies."

"Based on the exposures established for musicians, some noise-induced
hearing loss is predicted. ...However, several studies reported
highfrequency "notches" suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians,
possibly the more."

etc.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com

I've already documented the fact that concert musicians
are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment.

No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states
that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that
concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see
the difference?

As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today.

I came up with more than one study.

Well, one of the websites you linked to showed some studies.


The study did say that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss.

Correct. Read my paragraph above; I didn't dispute this. But YOU
(today) said thta concert musicians are "prone" to hearing loss. There
is no proof of this.


However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be due to their work
environment. So, we've got more than one case of correlation, not just the
one case that Jenn has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've
also got explanations for the observations based on the well-known
sensitivity of the human ear to damage by loud ambient sound levels.

Concert pianists are not in any way
"prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors.

Prove it.

YOU made the postive allegation; it is up to YOU to prove it.


Very, very
seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold
for a workday that is considered to be the danger point.

Prove it.

According to published standards, 90db should be experienced for fewer
than *8 HOURS* per day (U.S. standard; Canada's standard is 85 db) to
guard against damage. The loudest sound I've ever measured in my
rehearsal room or performance hall is 90 dB, and that only for less
than about 30 seconds. No ensemble rehearses for more than about 3
hours at a time.


Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

Try a Google search:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...ing050316.html


Doing my own reasarch, I find that:

http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html

"The findings are the opposite of those gathered by Alison Wright Reid in a
2001 study for the Association of British Orchestras."

So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No proof except that there
is a controversy.

Now, violinsts and
violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those
instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left
ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for
the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of
this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame,
etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while
sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le
Sacre.

Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence.

Feel free to search the archives of the American Symphony League and
the American Federation of Musicians.


At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or
anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR
greater danger of hearing loss.

Prove it.

No proof needed, as it's common knowledge. Go to any rock concert and
see if you can discern what has the higher average dB level, a typical
classical concert or a typical rock concert.


Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare time:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

Well, I wouldn't call that a "study" but anyway...


"Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious explanation is that
the conductor's hearing was done in by a lifetime of facing brass sections
in Wagner and Bruckner."

LOL Well, that and he was nearly 70 years old and in the last year of
his life!


http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt


"A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and
Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139
orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater than that
expected for their ages."

What instruments did they play?


http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html

"Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director of Opera North, who
has suffered a "dulling" of hearing on one side after 20 years as a trombone
player, thinks not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that is
nice is much easier to endure than loud music that isn't," he said. "High
squeaks are more tiring than louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud
enough to be dangerous."

http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc

In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of Vienna had examined
classical musicians. 87 of 194 examined ears showed signs of noise induced
hearing loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with permanent
tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were found[1]

a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB,
b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB,
c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB
http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf

"An additional finding was that violinists had significantly poorer hearing
in their left ear at the higher frequencies."

"Based on the exposures established for musicians, some noise-induced
hearing loss is predicted. ...However, several studies reported
highfrequency "notches" suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians,
possibly the more."

etc.

All true, I'm sure. One of your studies also stated that 10% of the
general population is exposed to workplace dB levels that cause hearing
loss and that over 50 million Americans have tinnitus,

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp

"The researchers found that the noise exposure of players of all of the
instrument groups fell below acceptable 85 dBA (noise exposure level
measured in decibels - dB, corrected to the frequency response of the
human ear - A) for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as
the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the International
Standard Organization (ISO) and also included in the Canadian Standards
Association."

Stephen

"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com

I've already documented the fact that concert musicians
are prone to hearing loss due to their work
environment.

No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states
that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not
that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do
you see the difference?

As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today.

I came up with more than one study.

Well, one of the websites you linked to showed some
studies.


The study did say that some concert musicians suffer
hearing loss.

Correct. Read my paragraph above; I didn't dispute this.
But YOU (today) said thta concert musicians are "prone"
to hearing loss. There is no proof of this.

OK Jenn, lets have a drag-out-knock-down fight over the meaning of the word
"prone".

Yawn!

However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be
due to their work environment. So, we've got more than
one case of correlation, not just the one case that Jenn
has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've
also got explanations for the observations based on the
well-known sensitivity of the human ear to damage by
loud ambient sound levels.

Jenn has no comment, so this must all be true

Concert pianists are not in any way
"prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors.

Prove it.

YOU made the postive allegation; it is up to YOU to prove
it.

Since you can't agree on the meaning of the word prone, Jenn - for me to go
on would be futile.

Very, very
seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold
for a workday that is considered to be the danger point.

Prove it.

According to published standards, 90db should be
experienced for fewer than *8 HOURS* per day (U.S.
standard; Canada's standard is 85 db) to guard against
damage.

Huh?

http://www.acoem.org/position/statements.asp?CATA_ID=53

In obtaining a history of noise exposure, the clinician should keep in mind
that the risk of noise-induced hearing loss is considered to increase
significantly with chronic exposures above 85 dBA for an 8-hour
time-weighted average (TWA).

Seems like this U.S. based authority agrees with the Canadians.



The loudest sound I've ever measured in my
rehearsal room or performance hall is 90 dB, and that
only for less than about 30 seconds. No ensemble
rehearses for more than about 3 hours at a time.

Since you don't say where you've measured in your rehearsal hall, all of
your measements may be invalid.

Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

Try a Google search:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...ing050316.html

Doing my own reasarch, I find that:

http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html

"The findings are the opposite of those gathered by
Alison Wright Reid in a 2001 study for the Association
of British Orchestras."

So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No
proof except that there is a controversy.

Now, violinsts and
violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those
instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left
ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for
the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of
this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame,
etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs
while sitting, for example, near the percussion during
Le Sacre.

Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence.

Feel free to search the archives of the American Symphony
League and the American Federation of Musicians.

Not my job. It's a positive assertion and therefore up to you to support
Jenn. At least that's what you just told me earlier in this post.

At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender,
or anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at
FAR greater danger of hearing loss.

Prove it.

No proof needed, as it's common knowledge.

Unsupported assertion misrepresented as an accepted fact.

Go to any
rock concert and see if you can discern what has the
higher average dB level, a typical classical concert or a
typical rock concert.

Straw man argument based on rock concerts noted. Jenn apparently does not
think that iPod owners ever listen to anything but rock and roll, and at
ear-shattering volumes. Besides it doesn't matter what rock lovers do, the
discussion is about classical musicians and conductors.

Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare
time:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

Well, I wouldn't call that a "study" but anyway...

"Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious
explanation is that the conductor's hearing was done in
by a lifetime of facing brass sections in Wagner and
Bruckner."

LOL Well, that and he was nearly 70 years old and in the
last year of his life!

http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt

"A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and
Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139
orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater
than that
expected for their ages."

What instruments did they play?

Irrelevant detail.

http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html

"Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director
of Opera North, who has suffered a "dulling" of hearing
on one side after 20 years as a trombone player, thinks
not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that
is nice is much easier to endure than loud music that
isn't," he said. "High squeaks are more tiring than
louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud enough to
be dangerous."

no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant

http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc

In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of
Vienna had examined classical musicians. 87 of 194
examined ears showed signs of noise induced hearing
loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with
permanent tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were
found[1]

a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB,
b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB,
c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB

no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant

http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf

"An additional finding was that violinists had
significantly poorer hearing in their left ear at the
higher frequencies."

"Based on the exposures established for musicians, some
noise-induced hearing loss is predicted. ...However,
several studies reported highfrequency "notches"
suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians,
possibly the more."

no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant

etc.

All true, I'm sure. One of your studies also stated that
10% of the general population is exposed to workplace dB
levels that cause hearing loss and that over 50 million
Americans have tinnitus,

Irrelevant. This is not about general workers, its about musicans in
symphony orchestras and similar smaller ensembles.

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp

"The researchers found that the noise exposure of players
of all of the instrument groups fell below acceptable 85
dBA (noise exposure level measured in decibels - dB,
corrected to the frequency response of the human ear - A)
for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as
the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the
International Standard Organization (ISO) and also
included in the Canadian Standards Association."

On contrary paragraph in one study does not overcome all the other evidence
that I collected.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where
we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see
the recent study by Canadian Opera.

No tracable cite(s) provided.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp

"The researchers found that the noise exposure of players
of all of the instrument groups fell below acceptable 85
dBA (noise exposure level measured in decibels - dB,
corrected to the frequency response of the human ear - A)
for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as
the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the
International Standard Organization (ISO) and also
included in the Canadian Standards Association."

On contrary paragraph in one study does not overcome all the other evidence
that I collected.

It implies that the hearing damage isn't necessarily due to professional
musical activities.

Of course, no one wants to sit in front of the trombones...

Stephen