Forgive my noobiness. You all have been so helpfull so far.

I'm currently considering a sub/amp package. Right now I
am running two Infinty 6x4 component plate speakers up front and two
Infinty 6x9 3-way speakers for rear fill. These are running only off
of the HU. A Pioneer DEH-P660.

My question is if I get two Infinity Kappa 10" DVC subs and feed them
250w RMS apiece from a RF Punch amp will this be overkill for this
set-up? Or will the sound still be able to match up well enough? I've
been reading through a lot of threads on Amperage today and read a lot
of recommendations saying that 75-100 watts to a single 10 or 12 inch
sub can be quite loud and satisfying. I've never had subs before so
don't know what these set-ups sound like and if I'm really just
overdoing it on the bass end of things. The thing is, I have the money
to spend to go with the high power/2 subwoofer deal. I'm not going to
run an amp to the 4x6's though. What you guys think?

And whats the benefit from DVC over a single voice coil sub?

Thanks again!

There is a reason you have gain controls on your amp.. i don't think that
would be over kill, just set it to a decent level.

Adair

"Dan Erick" wrote in message
Forgive my noobiness. You all have been so helpfull so far.

I'm currently considering a sub/amp package. Right now I
am running two Infinty 6x4 component plate speakers up front and two
Infinty 6x9 3-way speakers for rear fill. These are running only off
of the HU. A Pioneer DEH-P660.

My question is if I get two Infinity Kappa 10" DVC subs and feed them
250w RMS apiece from a RF Punch amp will this be overkill for this
set-up? Or will the sound still be able to match up well enough? I've
been reading through a lot of threads on Amperage today and read a lot
of recommendations saying that 75-100 watts to a single 10 or 12 inch
sub can be quite loud and satisfying. I've never had subs before so
don't know what these set-ups sound like and if I'm really just
overdoing it on the bass end of things. The thing is, I have the money
to spend to go with the high power/2 subwoofer deal. I'm not going to
run an amp to the 4x6's though. What you guys think?

And whats the benefit from DVC over a single voice coil sub?

Thanks again!

Install your gea rin your car...

Turn the subs OFF...

Turn up your volume on your deck to the loudest possible setting you
would ever put it...

slowly turn up the gain on your amp(s) untill it sounds good at that
max-volume level.

Be happy


On 25 May 2004 13:25:01 -0700, (Dan Erick)
wrote:

Forgive my noobiness. You all have been so helpfull so far.

I'm currently considering a sub/amp package. Right now I
am running two Infinty 6x4 component plate speakers up front and two
Infinty 6x9 3-way speakers for rear fill. These are running only off
of the HU. A Pioneer DEH-P660.

My question is if I get two Infinity Kappa 10" DVC subs and feed them
250w RMS apiece from a RF Punch amp will this be overkill for this
set-up? Or will the sound still be able to match up well enough? I've
been reading through a lot of threads on Amperage today and read a lot
of recommendations saying that 75-100 watts to a single 10 or 12 inch
sub can be quite loud and satisfying. I've never had subs before so
don't know what these set-ups sound like and if I'm really just
overdoing it on the bass end of things. The thing is, I have the money
to spend to go with the high power/2 subwoofer deal. I'm not going to
run an amp to the 4x6's though. What you guys think?

And whats the benefit from DVC over a single voice coil sub?

Thanks again!

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8



There is a reason you have gain controls on your amp.. i don't think that
would be over kill, just set it to a decent level.

Adair

"Dan Erick" wrote in message
Forgive my noobiness. You all have been so helpfull so far.

I'm currently considering a sub/amp package. Right now I
am running two Infinty 6x4 component plate speakers up front and two
Infinty 6x9 3-way speakers for rear fill. These are running only off
of the HU. A Pioneer DEH-P660.

My question is if I get two Infinity Kappa 10" DVC subs and feed them
250w RMS apiece from a RF Punch amp will this be overkill for this
set-up? Or will the sound still be able to match up well enough? I've
been reading through a lot of threads on Amperage today and read a lot
of recommendations saying that 75-100 watts to a single 10 or 12 inch
sub can be quite loud and satisfying. I've never had subs before so
don't know what these set-ups sound like and if I'm really just
overdoing it on the bass end of things. The thing is, I have the money
to spend to go with the high power/2 subwoofer deal. I'm not going to
run an amp to the 4x6's though. What you guys think?

And whats the benefit from DVC over a single voice coil sub?

Thanks again!

Why do you say that..?? When I turn the gain control the volume
goes up and down..... http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
Why do folks insist it is NOT a volume control..??

n8 skow wrote:

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8

I guess if you had the amp gain set nearly to one extreme or the
other, you might have problems, but I use it as a "volume knob" too,
to adjust relative volume between different speakers. Once you've
found the optimum gain setting to maximize output power without
distortion, any gain setting below that should be fair game.

Scott Gardner

On Wed, 26 May 2004 21:39:55 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Why do you say that..?? When I turn the gain control the volume
goes up and down..... http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
Why do folks insist it is NOT a volume control..??

n8 skow wrote:

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8

Not a volume control in that sense that turning the gain down is gonna
prevent someone from blowing up their gear...

n8



Why do you say that..?? When I turn the gain control the volume
goes up and down..... http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
Why do folks insist it is NOT a volume control..??

n8 skow wrote:

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8

I would get a kicker kx700.5 to amp every speaker in the system . Then
get a SINGLE Kicker CompVR DVC 400w rms sub or Fosgate , have someon
who knows how to build a lovely sealed box and run the sub at 2 ohms .
It will be quite sufficient .. Here ya go cheap AM
http://tinyurl.com/2ntuv
and Subs http://tinyurl.com/29age and http://tinyurl.com/35gcf
If you really WILL NOT amp the components still the CompVr 10" or 12
single with an appropriate box ( or SubZero or SubZone sealed *
excellent boxes BTW ) and a 400 watt 2 ohm mono capable 1 channel clas
D amp
P.S. If you really would like to have 2 Infinity subs , get the SV
versions , run them in series at 2 ohms ( with a capable amp of cours
) .
--
Mister_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_B's Profile: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/me...hp?userid=2813
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/sh...ad.php?t=18930

Yes it IS a volume control...

If you turn up your headunit volume control
to a point where the speakers are overpowered the voice coil could get
hot and burn up (too much power to the speakers)

ALSO, if you turn up the gain on an amp to the point where the speakers
are overpowered the same thing can happen....

whats the difference..??

NOTTA!!!

Eddie Runner

n8 skow wrote:

Not a volume control in that sense that turning the gain down is gonna
prevent someone from blowing up their gear...

n8

Why do you say that..?? When I turn the gain control the volume
goes up and down..... http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
Why do folks insist it is NOT a volume control..??

n8 skow wrote:

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8

Scott Gardner wrote:

I guess if you had the amp gain set nearly to one extreme or the
other, you might have problems, but I use it as a "volume knob" too,

I dont use the gains AS a volume control per se... But IT IS just as
much
of a volume control as the headunit volume control is ....

to adjust relative volume between different speakers. Once you've
found the optimum gain setting to maximize output power without
distortion, any gain setting below that should be fair game.

Without distortion..???
Would you set the amp gain so that the radio CANT distort the
speakers..??
if so, most folks would NOT be happy with those gain settings...
I explain it here...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Eddie



Scott Gardner

On Wed, 26 May 2004 21:39:55 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Why do you say that..?? When I turn the gain control the volume
goes up and down..... http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
Why do folks insist it is NOT a volume control..??

n8 skow wrote:

The gain control is not a volume knob...

n8

No, I don't set the amp gain so low that the deck is incapable of
sending distortion to the speakers - I don't think that's possible.
If you turn the radio all the way up, the output from the radio WILL
be distorted, and there's no gain setting on the amp that will
"remove" this distortion.

I initally set the amp gain to a very low level, so that even with the
head unit all the way up, the amp isn't being driven to full volume.
Then, I gradually increase the head unit volume until I hear that the
head unit is beginning to distort. I back it off a little and record
the volume level. That's where the head unit is producing maximum
output without audible distortion. Then, with the head unit at that
point, I turn the amp gain up until I hear distortion from the
amplifier (or the speakers start audible breaking up).

At this point, I now have the amp gain set such that the amp is
beginning to distort just as the head unit is beginning to distort.
The last step is to adjust the gain on the amp so that the speaker
volume is in balance with the rest of the system. In this last step,
I only turn the gain DOWN, never up. (kind of like when you're using
an equalizer, it's better to cut down the peaks than it is to boost
the dips).

The only thing the owner of the stereo has to remember is not to turn
the head unit up beyond the point where the head unit begins to
distort. That's always a risk you have to take since, as you said, if
you set the amp gains so low that the user can NEVER clip the amp,
you'll never be able to drive the amp to full volume.


Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:22:35 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:


Without distortion..???
Would you set the amp gain so that the radio CANT distort the
speakers..??
if so, most folks would NOT be happy with those gain settings...
I explain it here...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Eddie

Install your gea rin your car...

Turn the subs OFF...

Turn up your volume on your deck to the loudest possible setting you
would ever put it...

slowly turn up the gain on your amp(s) untill it sounds good at that
max-volume level.

....and then turn your gain up a little higher than that to account for
softer recordings.

No, I don't set the amp gain so low that the deck is incapable of
sending distortion to the speakers - I don't think that's possible.

Sure it is. Suppose you have a 2v head unit. Set your amp's gain to "8
volts".

If you turn the radio all the way up, the output from the radio WILL
be distorted, and there's no gain setting on the amp that will
"remove" this distortion.

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:27:30 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

No, I don't set the amp gain so low that the deck is incapable of
sending distortion to the speakers - I don't think that's possible.

Sure it is. Suppose you have a 2v head unit. Set your amp's gain to "8
volts".

See below.

If you turn the radio all the way up, the output from the radio WILL
be distorted, and there's no gain setting on the amp that will
"remove" this distortion.

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.


Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't. After all, the
preamp in the head unit is just another amplifier in the signal chain,
and it's subject to clipping just like any other amplifier. It would
make setting gains easier if you could always turn the head unit up
all the way to its maximum volume without any distortion, but that's
not usually the case.

Regardless, it doesn't matter to me whether the deck distorts at max
output or not. If it does, I back it off until the distortion stops
and proceed with setting the amp gain. If the deck doesn't ever
distort, then I would leave the head unit volume at maximum and
proceed from there with setting the amp gain.

As far as recording levels in the music go, I use a variety of
recordings to set amp gains. In most of the recordings, I've
normalized the RMS levels to -3dB, which is typical of modern CD
recordings. I also have a few recordings from my vinyl records that
are closer to -5 dB RMS to simulate "softer" recordings. I have no
control over what the user plays - it may be something so poorly
recorded that the RMS level is -9 or -12 dB, or it may be so badly
mixed that the RMS level is 0 or -1 DB. All I can do is set the gains
using typical recordings and go from there.

Scott Gardner

Most folks WOULD NOT be happy with a system set up
so the amp cannot clip like you recomend....
there is an example of it in my paper...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html


Scott Gardner wrote:

No, I don't set the amp gain so low that the deck is incapable of
sending distortion to the speakers - I don't think that's possible.
If you turn the radio all the way up, the output from the radio WILL
be distorted, and there's no gain setting on the amp that will
"remove" this distortion.

I initally set the amp gain to a very low level, so that even with the
head unit all the way up, the amp isn't being driven to full volume.
Then, I gradually increase the head unit volume until I hear that the
head unit is beginning to distort. I back it off a little and record
the volume level. That's where the head unit is producing maximum
output without audible distortion. Then, with the head unit at that
point, I turn the amp gain up until I hear distortion from the
amplifier (or the speakers start audible breaking up).

At this point, I now have the amp gain set such that the amp is
beginning to distort just as the head unit is beginning to distort.
The last step is to adjust the gain on the amp so that the speaker
volume is in balance with the rest of the system. In this last step,
I only turn the gain DOWN, never up. (kind of like when you're using
an equalizer, it's better to cut down the peaks than it is to boost
the dips).

The only thing the owner of the stereo has to remember is not to turn
the head unit up beyond the point where the head unit begins to
distort. That's always a risk you have to take since, as you said, if
you set the amp gains so low that the user can NEVER clip the amp,
you'll never be able to drive the amp to full volume.

Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:22:35 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Without distortion..???
Would you set the amp gain so that the radio CANT distort the
speakers..??
if so, most folks would NOT be happy with those gain settings...
I explain it here...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Eddie

Scott,
you may be mistaken!

Scott Gardner wrote:

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.
Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't.

Most amplifiers can be driven to full output and clipping
with a little over 1 volt of input signal... Most headunits
can do at least 2 volts easily... many nowdays MUCH MORE..

So the headunit clipping isnt really an issue UNLESS you
tuen the amp gain down so much that the headunit signal
is drasticly reduced by the amp...

Eddie Runner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:10:45 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Scott,
you may be mistaken!

Scott Gardner wrote:

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.
Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't.

Most amplifiers can be driven to full output and clipping
with a little over 1 volt of input signal... Most headunits
can do at least 2 volts easily... many nowdays MUCH MORE..

So the headunit clipping isnt really an issue UNLESS you
tuen the amp gain down so much that the headunit signal
is drasticly reduced by the amp...

Eddie Runner


We're talking about two different things. I agree that any modern
head unit will be able to drive just about any amp into clipping.
What I'm talking about is the quality of the signal from the head
unit. If you crank the volume all the way up on the head unit, you're
likely to get a distorted signal from the head unit, since you will
probably be clipping the preamp in the deck.

To maximize the S/N ratio out of the deck, I like to use the maximum
head unit volume setting I can use before distortion sets in from the
preamp in the line-out stage of the head unit. This has nothing to do
with whether or not the deck is capable of driving the downstream
amplifier into distortion.

If your head unit volume goes from 0 to 100, do you want the
downstream amp to be driven to full volume when the head unit volume
is at 20? Of course not - you want the widest range of usuable volume
settings at the head unit, while still being able to drive the
downstream amplifier to full volume. The only reason I wouldn't match
the gains so that the downstream amp is at full volume when the head
unit is at 100 is that by the time you turn the head unit's volume
control up to 100, the signal from the RCA preouts will probably be
pretty noisy.

So, I find the maximum volume setting on the head unit that doesn't
produce audible distortion **from the preamp stage in the head unit**.
Let's say that number is 85. Then I set the gain on the amp so that
when the head unit is at 85, the amp is being driven at the full
volume possible without clipping. If this results in the subs (or
whatever the amp is driving) being too loud for the rest of the
system, I then turn the amp gain down until everything is in balance.
Then I remember not to turn the head unit up above 85.

Scott Gardner

But you CAN clip the amp with my gain-setting procedure. All you have
to do is turn the head unit up further than the threshold setting that
I used when setting the gains.

The procedure I use ensures that the head unit will be putting out its
maximum possible clean signal at the same time that the amp begins to
clip. If I used a higher volume setting on the deck when setting the
amp gains, then the deck would begin to clip before the amp. If I use
a lower setting on the deck, then the amp will clip before the head
unit is producing its maximum clean output, and S/N ratio will be
lowered. I can't figure out what you think is so wrong about having
the head unit and the amplifier clip at the same volume setting.


It's true that if you used my method, and later played a recording
that was made at a very low level, like -9 dB RMS, you won't get full
volume out of the amp without clipping the head unit, but that's a
risk that's always going to be present. If you set your gains based
on a recording that's at -9 dB, then anytime you play a recording that
was made at a proper level, you'll clip the amp before you even get
the volume knob on the deck past 1/4-turn.

Scott Gardner


On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:07:06 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Most folks WOULD NOT be happy with a system set up
so the amp cannot clip like you recomend....
there is an example of it in my paper...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html


Scott Gardner wrote:

No, I don't set the amp gain so low that the deck is incapable of
sending distortion to the speakers - I don't think that's possible.
If you turn the radio all the way up, the output from the radio WILL
be distorted, and there's no gain setting on the amp that will
"remove" this distortion.

I initally set the amp gain to a very low level, so that even with the
head unit all the way up, the amp isn't being driven to full volume.
Then, I gradually increase the head unit volume until I hear that the
head unit is beginning to distort. I back it off a little and record
the volume level. That's where the head unit is producing maximum
output without audible distortion. Then, with the head unit at that
point, I turn the amp gain up until I hear distortion from the
amplifier (or the speakers start audible breaking up).

At this point, I now have the amp gain set such that the amp is
beginning to distort just as the head unit is beginning to distort.
The last step is to adjust the gain on the amp so that the speaker
volume is in balance with the rest of the system. In this last step,
I only turn the gain DOWN, never up. (kind of like when you're using
an equalizer, it's better to cut down the peaks than it is to boost
the dips).

The only thing the owner of the stereo has to remember is not to turn
the head unit up beyond the point where the head unit begins to
distort. That's always a risk you have to take since, as you said, if
you set the amp gains so low that the user can NEVER clip the amp,
you'll never be able to drive the amp to full volume.

Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:22:35 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Without distortion..???
Would you set the amp gain so that the radio CANT distort the
speakers..??
if so, most folks would NOT be happy with those gain settings...
I explain it here...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Eddie

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.


Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't.

Most of them nowadays don't - at least not until the very highest of the
high. Some of the Pioneer decks don't at all.

After all, the
preamp in the head unit is just another amplifier in the signal chain,
and it's subject to clipping just like any other amplifier.

Different point altogether. The reason amplifiers are subject to clipping
is because we SET them that way. If you set your amplifier to the "8 volt"
mark, it won't clip.

It would
make setting gains easier if you could always turn the head unit up
all the way to its maximum volume without any distortion, but that's
not usually the case.

Regardless, it doesn't matter to me whether the deck distorts at max
output or not. If it does, I back it off until the distortion stops
and proceed with setting the amp gain. If the deck doesn't ever
distort, then I would leave the head unit volume at maximum and
proceed from there with setting the amp gain.

I wouldn't do it that way. It doesn't give you any cushion. Oftentimes,
you need that cushion to get quiet recordings to reach their maximum level.
I have several cds that are just too quiet.

To illustrate, if you check out some of the decks on the carsound.com review
site, you'll find that the Pioneer DEH9300 and Rockford RFX 9000 did not
clip. They didn't perform this test for all the HUs they tested though.
But all the Kenwood ones appear to clip right away, and so does the Alpine
they tested.


--
Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply


"MZ" wrote in message
...
You're assuming all head units clip at max output.


Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't.

Most of them nowadays don't - at least not until the very highest of the
high. Some of the Pioneer decks don't at all.

After all, the
preamp in the head unit is just another amplifier in the signal chain,
and it's subject to clipping just like any other amplifier.

Different point altogether. The reason amplifiers are subject to clipping
is because we SET them that way. If you set your amplifier to the "8
volt"
mark, it won't clip.

It would
make setting gains easier if you could always turn the head unit up
all the way to its maximum volume without any distortion, but that's
not usually the case.

Regardless, it doesn't matter to me whether the deck distorts at max
output or not. If it does, I back it off until the distortion stops
and proceed with setting the amp gain. If the deck doesn't ever
distort, then I would leave the head unit volume at maximum and
proceed from there with setting the amp gain.

I wouldn't do it that way. It doesn't give you any cushion. Oftentimes,
you need that cushion to get quiet recordings to reach their maximum
level.
I have several cds that are just too quiet.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:18:21 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

You're assuming all head units clip at max output.


Well, I haven't come across one yet that doesn't.

Most of them nowadays don't - at least not until the very highest of the
high. Some of the Pioneer decks don't at all.

After all, the
preamp in the head unit is just another amplifier in the signal chain,
and it's subject to clipping just like any other amplifier.

Different point altogether. The reason amplifiers are subject to clipping
is because we SET them that way. If you set your amplifier to the "8 volt"
mark, it won't clip.

It would
make setting gains easier if you could always turn the head unit up
all the way to its maximum volume without any distortion, but that's
not usually the case.

Regardless, it doesn't matter to me whether the deck distorts at max
output or not. If it does, I back it off until the distortion stops
and proceed with setting the amp gain. If the deck doesn't ever
distort, then I would leave the head unit volume at maximum and
proceed from there with setting the amp gain.

I wouldn't do it that way. It doesn't give you any cushion. Oftentimes,
you need that cushion to get quiet recordings to reach their maximum level.
I have several cds that are just too quiet.

Well, it depends on what you consider "too quiet". Earlier, I said
that I use quite a few music tracks to set gains. Some of them are
recorded as low as -5 or -6 dB, which is MUCH quieter than a normal
recording. So, there is some "cushion" built in when I set my gains.
Now if, while setting the gains, I used a recording that had been
normalized to 0 or -1 dB, that would be a different story altogether.

Scott Gardner

Well, it depends on what you consider "too quiet". Earlier, I said
that I use quite a few music tracks to set gains. Some of them are
recorded as low as -5 or -6 dB, which is MUCH quieter than a normal
recording. So, there is some "cushion" built in when I set my gains.
Now if, while setting the gains, I used a recording that had been
normalized to 0 or -1 dB, that would be a different story altogether.

Yeah. This is a very important aspect of the gain setting procedure that
shouldn't be glossed over. Most people, myself included, don't generally
use a -6 dB disc to set their gains. So they need to provide a cushion.

So some of them do, and some of them don't. It really doesn't change
my procedure, though. I'm still trying to find the maximum deck
output voltage before the onset of distortion. For decks like the
DEH9300 and the RFX9000, that point just happens to coincide with the
maximum volume position on the knob.

Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:26:47 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

To illustrate, if you check out some of the decks on the carsound.com review
site, you'll find that the Pioneer DEH9300 and Rockford RFX 9000 did not
clip. They didn't perform this test for all the HUs they tested though.
But all the Kenwood ones appear to clip right away, and so does the Alpine
they tested.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:33:42 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

Well, it depends on what you consider "too quiet". Earlier, I said
that I use quite a few music tracks to set gains. Some of them are
recorded as low as -5 or -6 dB, which is MUCH quieter than a normal
recording. So, there is some "cushion" built in when I set my gains.
Now if, while setting the gains, I used a recording that had been
normalized to 0 or -1 dB, that would be a different story altogether.

Yeah. This is a very important aspect of the gain setting procedure that
shouldn't be glossed over. Most people, myself included, don't generally
use a -6 dB disc to set their gains. So they need to provide a cushion.


I didn't used to pay that much attention either, until I started
transferring my vinyl LPs to the computer. I noticed that even when I
adjusted the recording levels so that the peaks in the music were just
shy of clipping (like -0.1 or -0.2 dB), the overall volume of most of
the songs from vinyl sounded much "quieter" than CD recordings.

I did an experiment and recorded a dozen songs from vinyl that I also
had on CD. For all of the recordings, both from vinyl and CD, I
adjusted the recording levels so that the peaks were just short of 0.0
dB. For the vinyl recordings, this always gave an average (RMS) level
of -5 to -6 dB. For the same songs recorded on CD, the RMS levels
were closer to -3 dB. This meant the the CD versions of the songs
were almost twice as loud on average than the vinyl recordings. It
also meant that the CD recordings had a smaller dynamic range, by
about 3 dB.

I did more research and found out that even though CD as a recording
medium has the potential for a MUCH greater dynamic range than vinyl,
most recording engineers don't take advantage of it. As a matter of
fact, the trend with modern recordings is to actually COMPRESS the
dynamic range, so that the overall loudness of the song can be greater
without clipping the signal.

To make matters worse, most FM radio stations also have real-time
"compressors" that compress the dynamic range even further, raising
the RMS volume level without clipping the signal (clipping would cause
them to go outside the frequency band allotted to them by the FCC, and
possibly attract a penalty from the FCC). All of this is an effort to
make the station louder to attract listeners. As a result, the volume
difference between the quietest parts of a song and the loudest parts
of the song has been reduced greatly.

Scott Gardner

Scott Gardner wrote:

We're talking about two different things.

I thought we were talking about adjusting amplifier gain contrls

I agree that any modern
head unit will be able to drive just about any amp into clipping.

before the head unit clips

What I'm talking about is the quality of the signal from the head
unit.

if its not clipping its probably OK. headunit distortions is not
something most folks worry about at all... (while using external amps)

If you crank the volume all the way up on the head unit, you're
likely to get a distorted signal from the head unit, since you will
probably be clipping the preamp in the deck.

And my point is YOU WILL NEVER DO THAT!
Most amps can EASILY be driven by a head unit without the headunit
being driven too hard or clipping or distorting at all...
EASILY!

To maximize the S/N ratio out of the deck, I like to use the maximum
head unit volume setting I can use before distortion sets in from the
preamp in the line-out stage of the head unit.

Thats retarded!
The head unit should be set so the headunit has a useable swing to
the volume range....

This has nothing to do
with whether or not the deck is capable of driving the downstream
amplifier into distortion.

Sure it does, because if the headunit can drive the amp to clipping
before the headunit clips, then you probably wont ever have to worry
about the headunit clipping....

I certainly dont worry about it.

The only reason I wouldn't match
the gains so that the downstream amp is at full volume when the head
unit is at 100 is that by the time you turn the head unit's volume
control up to 100, the signal from the RCA preouts will probably be
pretty noisy.

I would set it so the amp gets loudest at about 75% of the radios
volume setting... it has nothing to do with the RCA peouts being
noisy.... Why would they be noisy?

Almost sounds like you havent really worked with many headunits and
amps.. ;-)

Eddie Runner

Scott Gardner wrote:

But you CAN clip the amp with my gain-setting procedure. All you have
to do is turn the head unit up further than the threshold setting that
I used when setting the gains.

then you MUSt be doing it the way I suggest here
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

MZ wrote:

Most of them nowadays don't - at least not until the very highest of the
high. Some of the Pioneer decks don't at all.

I dont notice any that clip, at least not enough for me to ever
notice or worry about it. Certainly NOT a factor that I worry
about when setting gains.

Different point altogether. The reason amplifiers are subject to clipping
is because we SET them that way. If you set your amplifier to the "8 volt"
mark, it won't clip.

Wont get loud enough to make most folks happy either!


Eddie

On Thu, 27 May 2004 23:18:16 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Scott Gardner wrote:

We're talking about two different things.

I thought we were talking about adjusting amplifier gain contrls

I agree that any modern
head unit will be able to drive just about any amp into clipping.

before the head unit clips

What I'm talking about is the quality of the signal from the head
unit.

if its not clipping its probably OK. headunit distortions is not
something most folks worry about at all... (while using external amps)

If you crank the volume all the way up on the head unit, you're
likely to get a distorted signal from the head unit, since you will
probably be clipping the preamp in the deck.

And my point is YOU WILL NEVER DO THAT!
Most amps can EASILY be driven by a head unit without the headunit
being driven too hard or clipping or distorting at all...
EASILY!

To maximize the S/N ratio out of the deck, I like to use the maximum
head unit volume setting I can use before distortion sets in from the
preamp in the line-out stage of the head unit.

Thats retarded!
The head unit should be set so the headunit has a useable swing to
the volume range....

This has nothing to do
with whether or not the deck is capable of driving the downstream
amplifier into distortion.

Sure it does, because if the headunit can drive the amp to clipping
before the headunit clips, then you probably wont ever have to worry
about the headunit clipping....

I certainly dont worry about it.

The only reason I wouldn't match
the gains so that the downstream amp is at full volume when the head
unit is at 100 is that by the time you turn the head unit's volume
control up to 100, the signal from the RCA preouts will probably be
pretty noisy.

I would set it so the amp gets loudest at about 75% of the radios
volume setting... it has nothing to do with the RCA peouts being
noisy.... Why would they be noisy?

Why would they distort? Is it so hard to believe that the internal
preamp might start to distort before the volume knob reaches maximum?



Almost sounds like you havent really worked with many headunits and
amps.. ;-)

Eddie Runner


Look at Mark's post about the tests done on head unit outputs.
Several of the units tested *did* distort before the maximum volume on
the knob was reached. What's so wrong with setting the gains so that
the amp is driven to maximum volume before that point on the head
unit's pre-outs (if the deck in question has such a point) is reached?

You say that the gains should be set so that the head unit has a
"usable swing" to the voltage range. Well, my method maximizes that
swing. You set the gains so that the amp is fully driven when the
head unit is at 75% volume. Where do you get 75%? Is it just a
number you pulled out of your hat?

I've worked with plenty of head units and amps (although we don't seem
to disagree on the amp part of the procedure - just where to set the
volume on the deck), and I have heard head units that put out a
distorted signal before maximum volume was reached. All I'm doing
when I set my gains is making sure that the head unit will drive the
amp to full volume, while maximizing the usable range on the volume
knob.

Honestly, it sounds like the only difference in our methods is that
you choose 75% as an arbitrary volume setting on the head unit, while
I choose to find where the head unit starts to distort.

If you're never worried about the head unit distorting, why not use
90% or 100% instead of 75% and give the user a wider volume range on
the knob to work with?

Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 23:19:15 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:



Scott Gardner wrote:

But you CAN clip the amp with my gain-setting procedure. All you have
to do is turn the head unit up further than the threshold setting that
I used when setting the gains.

then you MUSt be doing it the way I suggest here
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html


Like I said in my other post - your method and mine are really the
same, only you use 75% of max volume as an arbitrary setting on the
head unit, while I just turn it up until I hear the head unit distort.
For what it's worth, that usually ends up being somewhere around
75%-80% anyway, so the end results of you adjusting gains and me
adjusting gains wind up about the same.

Scott Gardner

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:07:06 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Most folks WOULD NOT be happy with a system set up
so the amp cannot clip like you recomend....
there is an example of it in my paper...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html


The only part of your tech paper that I would change is the last
section where you talk about adjusting levels in a multi-amp setup.

Once you have all of the individual gains set correctly, and you're
trying to balance the relative speaker volumes against each other, I
would change the text to explicity state that you should always make
the adjustments by LOWERING the gain on the speakers that are too
loud, never by raising the gain for the speakers that are too soft.
It might seem intuitively obvious to you and me, but your paper seems
directed to a wide audience, so I'd try to make that clear, rather
than just saying "make the adjustments to the amplifiers so the levels
are the same".

All in all, a great piece, though.

Scott Gardner

The only part of your tech paper that I would change is the last
section where you talk about adjusting levels in a multi-amp setup.

Once you have all of the individual gains set correctly, and you're
trying to balance the relative speaker volumes against each other, I
would change the text to explicity state that you should always make
the adjustments by LOWERING the gain on the speakers that are too
loud, never by raising the gain for the speakers that are too soft.

Why? Then you could be introducing head unit distortion!

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:25:08 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

The only part of your tech paper that I would change is the last
section where you talk about adjusting levels in a multi-amp setup.

Once you have all of the individual gains set correctly, and you're
trying to balance the relative speaker volumes against each other, I
would change the text to explicity state that you should always make
the adjustments by LOWERING the gain on the speakers that are too
loud, never by raising the gain for the speakers that are too soft.

Why? Then you could be introducing head unit distortion!

Lol - I know you're pulling my chain now, but that's really not true.
If all you're doing is bringing down the level of the speakers that
are too loud, there's no reason to have to turn the head unit any
further up to compensate - you're not trying to adjust the OVERALL
volume of the system, just the relative volumes between the speakers.

On the other hand, if you have all of the gains set properly, and
then adjust the relative volumes by turning the quieter speakers UP,
you'll cause that amplifier to clip sooner. If you properly attenuate
the speakers that are too loud to bring the system into balance, and
the resulting overall volume is too quiet, then you need more powerful
amps.

This is the same reason why you should begin equalizing by cutting the
peaks rather than boosting the dips. Cutting the peaks ensures that
if you weren't clipping before the equalization, you won't be clipping
afterwards.

Scott Gardner

Lol - I know you're pulling my chain now, but that's really not true.
If all you're doing is bringing down the level of the speakers that
are too loud, there's no reason to have to turn the head unit any
further up to compensate - you're not trying to adjust the OVERALL
volume of the system, just the relative volumes between the speakers.

On the other hand, if you have all of the gains set properly, and
then adjust the relative volumes by turning the quieter speakers UP,
you'll cause that amplifier to clip sooner. If you properly attenuate
the speakers that are too loud to bring the system into balance, and
the resulting overall volume is too quiet, then you need more powerful
amps.

This is the same reason why you should begin equalizing by cutting the
peaks rather than boosting the dips. Cutting the peaks ensures that
if you weren't clipping before the equalization, you won't be clipping
afterwards.

I usually don't go out of my way to do either. The fine-tuning part
introduces relatively little overall difference to the volume knob. It's
the initial gain setting where you tend to have to deal with the issue.

But then again, my preout doesn't clip so what do I care?

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:45:17 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

Lol - I know you're pulling my chain now, but that's really not true.
If all you're doing is bringing down the level of the speakers that
are too loud, there's no reason to have to turn the head unit any
further up to compensate - you're not trying to adjust the OVERALL
volume of the system, just the relative volumes between the speakers.

On the other hand, if you have all of the gains set properly, and
then adjust the relative volumes by turning the quieter speakers UP,
you'll cause that amplifier to clip sooner. If you properly attenuate
the speakers that are too loud to bring the system into balance, and
the resulting overall volume is too quiet, then you need more powerful
amps.

This is the same reason why you should begin equalizing by cutting the
peaks rather than boosting the dips. Cutting the peaks ensures that
if you weren't clipping before the equalization, you won't be clipping
afterwards.

I usually don't go out of my way to do either. The fine-tuning part
introduces relatively little overall difference to the volume knob. It's
the initial gain setting where you tend to have to deal with the issue.

But then again, my preout doesn't clip so what do I care?

Yep, I'm not saying it's always an issue, I've just seen too many
people that go to a lot of trouble to set their gains properly, and
then think nothing of throwing in 6-12 dB of boost in three or four
different bands. Depending on how much boost they introduce, and what
bands they're boosting, it could make several dB of difference between
the input and output signals of the equalizer.

After all, if the gain controls on amplifiers are really just volume
controls, then so are the sliders on an equalizer - they just affect
sections of the signal at a time rather than the whole signal.

Scott Gardner

Scott Gardner wrote:

Look at Mark's post about the tests done on head unit outputs.
Several of the units tested *did* distort before the maximum volume on
the knob was reached.

Ok, if a head unit CLIPS near the point where the volume control is
ALL THE WAY.... It would be likely the amp could STILL CLIP FIRST!

So my point is, the headunit clipping is IRRELAVENT!!

Only a fool would turn the amp gain down so far as to have to turn the
headunit to MAX...!!
I guess you still havent read my paper on gains, or you would have
already seen this...
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

What's so wrong with setting the gains so that
the amp is driven to maximum volume before that point on the head
unit's pre-outs (if the deck in question has such a point) is reached?

Only a real dumbass would EVER set them that way!
Not something I spend time worrying about... ;-)

You say that the gains should be set so that the head unit has a
"usable swing" to the voltage range.

Yes, a swing that is comfortable to the user....

Well, my method maximizes that
swing.

MAXIMUM..?? So the user has to turn and turn and turn
the volume knob before he gets it loud..??

If you had read my paper you would see that I think most folks
like to be comfortable with the volume knob, thay dont want
the system BLARRING when they barely move the volume
control, and they dont want to have to crank it and crank it
and crank it to change from a low setting to a high setting or
from a high setting to a low setting...... It should be a comfortable
swing.

You set the gains so that the amp is fully driven when the
head unit is at 75% volume. Where do you get 75%? Is it just a
number you pulled out of your hat?

For most folks around 75% is a pretty comfortable swing....

I've worked with plenty of head units and amps

Not as many as me! Its been 30 years for me now...I still
install nearly every day....

(although we don't seem
to disagree on the amp part of the procedure - just where to set the
volume on the deck),

SET..??
I let the customer SET it wherever he likes it...
there is no SET place that is right or wrong, in fact it is best if
he can turn it UP and DOWN!! ha ha ha

and I have heard head units that put out a
distorted signal before maximum volume was reached.

Why would you have ever had to turn a headunit up that far..??
Set it up my way http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
and you wont ever have those problems again.....

All I'm doing
when I set my gains is making sure that the head unit will drive the
amp to full volume, while maximizing the usable range on the volume
knob.

MAXIMIZING....????? Why?????
And that sounds like your setting the headunits volume as high as it will
go... NOT A GOOD procedure as some recordings or sources may
be HOTTER or may be LOWER in volume, which could mean the
headunit wont play as loud since the volume control is already MAXXED OUT.

The 75% I recomend would give you plenty EXTRA swing if you
ever needed it because of a low recording....

Honestly, it sounds like the only difference in our methods is that
you choose 75% as an arbitrary volume setting on the head unit, while
I choose to find where the head unit starts to distort.

And thats why YOUR meathod is a bad one...

MY WAY the headunit is not near its limits
YOUR WAY, its about to stressss out!!!
ha ha ha

If you're never worried about the head unit distorting, why not use
90% or 100% instead of 75% and give the user a wider volume range on
the knob to work with?

Because it is manytimes uncomfortable for a user to have to go UP and UP
ad UP to change from soft to loud (or vise versa)....

AND REASON 2, becuase a softer source or recording may need to go
up higher than usuall, and if your already MAXXED OUT then that cant
happen...

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Scott Gardner wrote:

Like I said in my other post - your method and mine are really the
same, only you use 75% of max volume as an arbitrary setting

It is NOT an arbitrary setting....
it is a setting that has had MUCH thought and MUCH experience
in determining......... And for most folks much better than your
MAXXED OUT SETTING!


Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

Scott Gardner wrote:

Once you have all of the individual gains set correctly, and you're
trying to balance the relative speaker volumes against each other, I
would change the text to explicity state that you should always make
the adjustments by LOWERING the gain on the speakers that are too
loud, never by raising the gain for the speakers that are too soft.

Its pretty common that I do it the way you say NOT TO....

I sometimes get ALL the gains OFF so there is no sound
and then set something (like the subs) as a reference point, and
then bring the fronts and backs up till the listener hears them...

So I guess I prefer to do it the way you say NOT to do it...

I got a pretty good track record in the last 30 years... wonder how
many 1000s and 1000s of cars I have done that way..??

Could it be Scotts ears that clip?
Or the fact that he likes to MAXXIMIZE the headunits volume control...

ha ha ha

MZ wrote:


But then again, my preout doesn't clip so what do I care?

I never said to maximize the volume contol, chuckles - I said to
maximize the usable volume swing. Try reading the paragraph again.
And it's not a big deal for me to have to turn the volume knob "up and
up and up", as you put it. There's only about 1 1/2 complete turns
from minimum to maximum on my volume knob anyway.

You set the gains any way you like, and I'll do the same. I must
still not be explaining myself correctly, because so many of the
problems you seem to have with my methods stem from not understanding
what the hell I'm saying.

Scott Gardner



On Fri, 28 May 2004 16:03:46 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Could it be Scotts ears that clip?
Or the fact that he likes to MAXXIMIZE the headunits volume control...

ha ha ha

MZ wrote:


But then again, my preout doesn't clip so what do I care?

On Fri, 28 May 2004 16:01:45 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Scott Gardner wrote:

Once you have all of the individual gains set correctly, and you're
trying to balance the relative speaker volumes against each other, I
would change the text to explicity state that you should always make
the adjustments by LOWERING the gain on the speakers that are too
loud, never by raising the gain for the speakers that are too soft.

Its pretty common that I do it the way you say NOT TO....

I sometimes get ALL the gains OFF so there is no sound
and then set something (like the subs) as a reference point, and
then bring the fronts and backs up till the listener hears them...

So I guess I prefer to do it the way you say NOT to do it...

I got a pretty good track record in the last 30 years... wonder how
many 1000s and 1000s of cars I have done that way..??

What happens if the sub amp (to use your example) is much more
powerful than the other amps in the system? After you've set the subs
to whatever level you like, now you have to raise the other amps'
gains up to balance the other speakers' outputs with the subs' output.
If the other amps are significantly less powerful, you could end up
clipping them before they reached an appropriate volume relative to
the subs. Now you have to lower the sub amp's gain and begin again.

If you set all the amp gains so that the amps are all reaching maximum
volume at the same time (when the head unit is at 75% or whatever
number you choose), then you can proceed to adjust the gains downward
for the speakers that are too loud. This way, you know that when the
head unit is at 75%, the quietest speakers in your system are being
driven at max volume, and the other speakers have been attenuated to
an appropriate level.

You way obviously works for you, and mine works for me. If you follow
my procedure, you'll still extract the maximum clean overall volume
from the system, and you don't have to worry about setting the gain on
one amp too high while trying to raise it up to match the level of
another amp.

Scott Gardner