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  #1   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.
  #2   Report Post  
ReEfErMaDnEsS
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

it seems to me it's all about the distortion ratings of the amp as to how
clean it sounds..trust your ears


"Steve Grauman" wrote in message
...
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been

to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a

Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.



  #3   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been
to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic".


"Warmth" is often a subjective term attributed to the audible presence of
second harmonics in the signal (this is well-accepted in the literature).
However, I don't know of any modern day solid state car amplifier that has
been tested (or that I have tested) with audible levels of harmonic
distortion when operating in its linear range (except for some rare
instances at milliwatt levels).

"Better detail" is a bit more vague. I suppose it can mean more precise,
but again, distortion levels are too low for that to be the case. If
instead they mean better high frequency response (which often leads to more
"presence"), then I'm not sure how they can come to that conclusion either,
because you won't find any of these amps with a significant departure from
"flat" in the high frequency range. By "significant" I mean it's not
detectable. It can be measured, and in fact can be rather substantial (even
on the order of -3dB or more by the time you're at 20kHz). But it's not
detectable because it's difficult for humans to detect narrowband frequency
response dips (we can actually detect peaks better than dips!) of that
magnitude, at a freq band that we're insensitive to anyway.

"Less dynamic" distinctly refers to the dynamic range of the amplifier. All
of the amplifiers in question have a dynamic range several orders of
magnitude above what's generally considered overkill. In a car environment,
dynamic range is limited by road noise anyway. There's one way to
dramatically limit dynamic range, however, and that's by driving your
amplifier into clipping.

I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.


Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power
output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics...


  #4   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power
output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics...


I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically (if
at all). I've got up to about $600 to commit to the amp, but because dealers
can often sell for well below MSRP, it's hard to find an amp based on price
alone. For instance, the Dynaudio set I'm buying has an MSRP of around $1,100,
but I'm paying less than $800 for it.
  #5   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically
(if
at all).


As long as you operate that amp within it's linear range that should be no
problem. In other words don't clip it. Todays SS amps are all accurate to
within acceptable standards for human hearing. So any differences that do exist
cannot be picked up on by out ears.
So, you best bet is to use other criteria like power output, number of
channels, reliability, resale value, customer support, orice, looks, etc.


Les


  #6   Report Post  
TheBIessedDead
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to
3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a
Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need
is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.


I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a Hifonics
amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using.
Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more dymanic"
amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the Hifonics
has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass filters... all
adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the sound
difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using.

Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply
because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that can
contribute to sound differences.

Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the
100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's just
noticing the power difference.

Nick
  #7   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Steve,

I have to say I've done a complete turnaround on this topic. After
listening to several gurus on this newsgroup, I have to accept the fact that
a watt is a watt and you cannot possibly perceive an SQ difference between
one amp and another unless you push them into clipping.

And if their word isn't enough, then consider a quote from the Feb/Mar issue
of Mobile Entertainment from mega trophy (221 to be exact) winner Scott
Buwalda. He says one of the myths of sound-off competitions is "A watt is a
watt. I doubt most people can hear the difference between amplifiers unless
you push them into clipping anyway."

And as our newsgroup gurus say, the "experts" out there keep perpetuating
this myth...as your visit to 3 different shops clearly illustrates.

Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's
Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott
Buwalda: "Zapco's Reference 1100M mono amp will drive your subwoofers to the
limit of their power-handling capability and deliver the clearest of
signals. Oh, and did I mention the top-notch sound quality?"

Anyway, back to your problem. You have $600 to spend on a good amp and
don't want to pay full retail. I suggest you visit
http://www.sounddomain.com and look at the Phoenix Gold Titanium series
amplifiers. I absolutely love them. They're very flexible, have built-in
fans, and have GOBS of power. I have Dynaudio speakers myself and whether
or not you're a believer of "SQ amps", these amps ROCK...either way you look
it. Plus, sounddomain is an authorized Internet dealer and sell MUCH less
than retail shops. I confirmed their authorized status with Phoenix Gold
myself (not heresay).

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been

to
3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo

from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that

amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a
Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I

need
is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better

than
another? Any help would be great.


I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a

Hifonics
amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using.
Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more

dymanic"
amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the

Hifonics
has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass

filters... all
adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the

sound
difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using.

Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply
because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that

can
contribute to sound differences.

Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the
100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's

just
noticing the power difference.

Nick



  #8   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's
Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott
Buwalda


I ended up with Dynaduio's System 240 MKII speakers system and a Zapco
refernece series amp making 125x2. Put in the deposit yesterday. =)

Good luck with whatever you decide.


I appreciate it.
  #9   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
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Default Amps, more argument!


I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.

I went from an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S to a Phoenix Gold Tantrum
1200.1. The difference was night and day.

Same sub, same box, same car, same features, same impedance load
(4ohms). I popped my trunk and listened to the sound of my sub when
powered by the Digitalis, and drums sounded like anything BUT drums.
Recordings with drum hits close together, or with basslines that
fluctuated sounded like TRASH. Everything ran together. While playing a
test tone to adjust my gain properly I could barely tell when it
started distorting, it was that horrible.

On the other hand, when I got my Tantrum amp drums sounded perfect,
even when played close together. And fluctuating basslines were played
perfectly. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.

There was a H U G E difference in SQ between the two, even at low
volume.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #10   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.


Did you level match them? Did you do a blind listening test? Probably not. You
are forgetting the effects of pyschoacoustics. Brand recognition goes a long
way in that.
BTW, you would be surprised at just how much clipping people will allow
themselves to listen too before they ever realize it is occuring.

It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.


And how do you suppose that happens?
How can an amp have "better control" over another. Look at independent tests
performed by places like carsound.com; look at the graphs. Any differences that
are measured, and there are differences, would be inaudible to the human ear.

Until someone from the "I heard it" or "My experience" camp can actually offer
some proof other than that then thier "claims" are just that.

Les


  #11   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


I don't think you understand me correctly.

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like
absolute trash.

But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume
than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference
in SQ.

At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a
sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real
drum hit.

I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms.
No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing,
everything the same.

I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.

And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought
those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other
besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #12   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I don't think you understand me correctly.

No, I understand you. You did not seem to read any of my post though.

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all.


So? Did you do a blind listening test? Level matching? Any sort of valid
comparison of amplifiers?

But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume
than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference
in SQ.


Most people think that ANY amp would sound better at a high volume than a low
one. So, yes, there was a difference, one in volume.

At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a
sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real
drum hit.


Do you know what a blind listening test is? You must have extremely good memory
of sounds, as it must take a few minutes to change an amp for another listen.
Crossovers and gains would be different, thus you percieve a difference.


I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.


You know? Did you measure it? You lack the technical words and the technical
understanding. Not a big deal, but listen to the people that do know the
technical stuff about it. Pyschoacoustics and related factors usually play a
bigger role in things than we want to admit, that is why we have technical
standards and tests to determine what is real and what is not. What we percieve
and what is happening are not always the same thing.

And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said,


It would be easy to know what I said if you would quote. It is easy and quite
helpful when attempting to carry on a converstation.

besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.


You results of these amps are meaningless. There were no controls, no
standards, no level matching, no crossover verifications. You hooked up one,
then hooked up the other, with some time inbetween. Tell me this, when you
measure the amps parameters and any differences are below the threshold of
hearing then how is there a difference? If you can answer that then I might
give you a listen.

Les
  #13   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Default Amps, more argument!

Will,

Something I forgot in my last post.
I do not doubt that you heard a difference, but I question the interpretations
you made, and the reasons you have for them "differences" being there.

Les
  #14   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like
absolute trash.


Sounds to me like you're saying your new amp had more power. That's what
generally causes the effect you describe.

I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms.
No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing,
everything the same.


Same power output? Same preconceived notions?


I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.


What do you suppose that difference was attributable to? My guess is power.


And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought
those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other
besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.


Well, there you have it. There must be differences then. I guess we just
can't measure them. I think the differences are actually in the magic green
goo that floats around in the speaker, but that's just me.


  #15   Report Post  
JIF
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Soundfreak03 wrote:
*I don't think you understand me correctly.

No, I understand you. You did not seem to read any of my post
though.


So? Did you do a blind listening test? Level matching? Any sort of
valid
comparison of amplifiers?


Most people think that ANY amp would sound better at a high volume
than a low
one. So, yes, there was a difference, one in volume.


Do you know what a blind listening test is? You must have extremely
good memory
of sounds, as it must take a few minutes to change an amp for another
listen.
Crossovers and gains would be different, thus you percieve a
difference.



You know? Did you measure it? You lack the technical words and the
technical
understanding. Not a big deal, but listen to the people that do know
the
technical stuff about it. Pyschoacoustics and related factors usually
play a
bigger role in things than we want to admit, that is why we have
technical
standards and tests to determine what is real and what is not. What
we percieve
and what is happening are not always the same thing.


It would be easy to know what I said if you would quote. It is easy
and quite
helpful when attempting to carry on a converstation.


You results of these amps are meaningless. There were no controls,
no
standards, no level matching, no crossover verifications. You hooked
up one,
then hooked up the other, with some time inbetween. Tell me this,
when you
measure the amps parameters and any differences are below the
threshold of
hearing then how is there a difference? If you can answer that then I
might
give you a listen.

Les *


I also know little amount the measuement standards recognized by
testing authorities. So I have questions. I think what Will was
descibing was that one amp seemed to be blurring the notes together or
not providing a noticable separation between peaks in the notes
playing. Is it possible for an amp to not separate individual notes as
well as another? Could one amp not accuately reproduce the ratio
between quite notes to loud notes prrovided by the signal? Could one
amp produce certain frequencies a millisecond or two before or after
it's intended arrival thus attributing to the lack of clarity between
drum beats?

I hope I described my questions well enough for them to make sense to
you. I too have noticed differences in amps and always wondered what
was to blame. When their specs seemed to be identicle. The only
difference being brand . I remember I selected my first amp this way,
and ended up picking the Jensen, beacause it "sounded better". I'm
sure I wasn't just picking a brand name then



--
JIF
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  #16   Report Post  
Chuck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I had three identical sony kicker amps (all of which were truly
crap),and i noticed that the first amp sounded loud ,the second wasnt as
loud,and the third was was as loud but much cleaner sounding. All three
were four channel amps in which the circuit protechtion didnt work in
and the last amp took out three of my four 6x9s. My solo baric still
works (with a wedge inbetween the rca input connecters ) gee go figure?
Hell the last kicker amp was only turned up half way . They said to
send it in for warrenty work..but im done with kicker and sony . I wasnt
pleased with livin loud for a couple weeks then pulling my hair out
cause sony is not putting out amps that dont meltdown at high lasting
volume. I noticed that the wattage rating on these amps were all
differnent even tho they were all kx 600.4 models. Any ideas on a new
4channel amp? Im thinking about alpine amp with the temp gauge and
voltometer thingy. Maybe a rockford fosgate? Ill be picking 250 peak
watt alpine 3-way speakers as well. Never heard of tantrum...or dyna?
There goes my monitor screen upgrade thanks for the worthless junk sony!
Regardless any help on which amp i should choose for peak sound would
be great! thanks

  #17   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Salesman and even installers often describe amps and they way
they sound with subjective terms...

Nothin wrong with that!

BUT, its pretty hard to take what they think is warm and compare it
with what a different guy thinks is warm....

Amps DO definatly sound different!!!!

Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement!
Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks.

2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and
no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much
the same (1 watt = 1 watt)

But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range
one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!!

These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use!

The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition
that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!!

NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE!

Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!!

As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would
be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford.

Many brands of popular amps come out of the same factories in
china as many other popular brands which makes alot of the common
amps the same or very similar as many others, but the manufacturers
dont want to tell you which ones are which.. ;-)

Another confusing factor is that the amp brands rate the power
all different ways and some even LIE about the power output
of the amps, so its pretty hard to make a good decision by the
printed specs...

If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word
for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do
get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever
come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one.

Good luck
Eddie Runner
teamrocs #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/

Steve Grauman wrote:

Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from
these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2
has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio
System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is
an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than
another? Any help would be great.


  #18   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Amps DO definatly sound different!!!!

Sure, when you take them outside of thier happy zone.

Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement!
Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks.

2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and
no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much
the same (1 watt = 1 watt)


Right, which is the point of the all amps sound the same argument.

But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range
one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!!

These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use!


They can occur under normal everyday use. I personally attempt to buy amps with
enough headroom to play as loud as I would like without clipping, alas it does
not always happen.

The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition
that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!!

NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE!


Which is good to know what they performed like in test situations. It helps
establish a baseline, and a reference to what is actually there and what we
percieve to be there.

Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!!


Only if they are driven to distortion. You make the other stuff equal and they
do sound the same.

As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would
be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford


Exactly. But those types of things will often get overlooked when people have
to worry about SQ of an amp. My point on the issue the entire time I have been
here is that there are more important things to worry about than SQ. People get
way to hung up on that.

If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word
for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do
get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever
come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one.


Right again. Only problem is you have to trust the installer Which nowadays
is not as easy to do. Reliablity is big on my list, as is power, and price.

Les
  #19   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I also know little amount the measuement standards recognized by
testing authorities. So I have questions. I think what Will was
descibing was that one amp seemed to be blurring the notes together or
not providing a noticable separation between peaks in the notes
playing. Is it possible for an amp to not separate individual notes as
well as another?


Yes, that's possible. With a poor frequency response, a device not only
attenuates certain frequencies with respect to one another, but can also
alter the relative phase. This could contribute to the effect that you're
referring to above. Also, poor dynamic range can contribute as well. In
addition, the introduction of distortion can present some degree of masking
which may be perceived as notes "blending" together.

Could one amp not accuately reproduce the ratio
between quite notes to loud notes prrovided by the signal?


Yes. Any device in the signal chain can have poor dynamic range. It's
usually less significant in amplifiers than in some other types of devices.

Could one
amp produce certain frequencies a millisecond or two before or after
it's intended arrival thus attributing to the lack of clarity between
drum beats?


Yes. Poor phase response as I noted above can be responsible for this.
Also, damping factor can contribute to this as well.

The problem with the above analysis, however, is that even the cheapest amps
don't demonstrate any of these attributes above! The freq/phase response of
every solid state car amplifier that I know of is good enough to be
indetectable by our brains. The same goes for the dynamic range, distortion
characteristics, and damping factor! They're all well below threshold.
Especially when you compare these things to other devices, like speakers.
Speakers can have an audible level of distortion, even behaving linearly.
Speakers can have a topsy turvey frequency response. Speakers, especially
in car environments, have nasty phase responses. Speakers can lack
"control" with certain frequencies. And dynamic range is limited severely
by the high road noise levels typical of automobile environments.

The bottom line is this: your car and your speakers completely swamp any
"poor" distortion/phase/freq.resp. effects that your amplifiers exhibit.
Placing the blame on the amplifier just makes no sense. It's like losing a
road race by ten minutes but blaming the judge for miscalculating your time
by three seconds.

There is one notable exception, however. That's if your amplifier isn't
powerful enough to deliver the power you're requiring it to deliver. When
that's the case, you're probably driving your amplifier into clipping (very
common - 95% of the people in here do it and probably don't realize it).
When driven into clipping, amplifiers can behave noticably different, as
their distortion byproduct skyrockets and the spectral components can
actually differ from amp to amp when this occurs.


  #20   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Huh? Kicker and Sony are different companies.
Kicker tests each of their amps as they're built so you know exactly how
much power they put out. They were all rated the same, but the actual power
output (what they wrote on the sheet) will be different for every unit made.
I'm not sure how you managed to kill 3 KX600.4s but if you can do that I
doubt you're going to find an amp that wil take the kind of obviuos abuse
you put on your gear for very long.
What Sony amp(s) were you using?


Paul Vina





"Chuck" wrote in message
...
I had three identical sony kicker amps (all of which were truly
crap),and i noticed that the first amp sounded loud ,the second wasnt as
loud,and the third was was as loud but much cleaner sounding. All three
were four channel amps in which the circuit protechtion didnt work in
and the last amp took out three of my four 6x9s. My solo baric still
works (with a wedge inbetween the rca input connecters ) gee go figure?
Hell the last kicker amp was only turned up half way . They said to
send it in for warrenty work..but im done with kicker and sony . I wasnt
pleased with livin loud for a couple weeks then pulling my hair out
cause sony is not putting out amps that dont meltdown at high lasting
volume. I noticed that the wattage rating on these amps were all
differnent even tho they were all kx 600.4 models. Any ideas on a new
4channel amp? Im thinking about alpine amp with the temp gauge and
voltometer thingy. Maybe a rockford fosgate? Ill be picking 250 peak
watt alpine 3-way speakers as well. Never heard of tantrum...or dyna?
There goes my monitor screen upgrade thanks for the worthless junk sony!
Regardless any help on which amp i should choose for peak sound would
be great! thanks





  #21   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

God, look what I started. Sorry.
  #22   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


N A W M A N

How can I be clipping the amp at low volume? Low as in, any less an
the speaker would not move at all. And it still sounded like trash
Notes still ran together

So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs an
nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the sam
sound quality wise

I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp tha
ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounde
the same? Even at low volume.

I have "main" songs that I listen to. And know them by heart. The beat
the words, everything. As soon as I hooked my Digitalis up, I instantl
said to myself, that sounds horrible. I had just sold my MTX 1501
about 2 or 3 days before I hooked the Digitalis up. And it sounde
totally different than it sounded with the MTX. And as soon as I too
the Digitalis off and put the Tantrum on, I heard another BI
difference in SQ, in a good way.

All 3 of those are 1500 watt amps, well, the Tantrum is 1429. No hug
difference in power. The way it sounds normally is gross, if it eve
clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitali
could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move m
seats and dangle my my rearview ornament

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I le
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps

No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping
amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it fo
myself. This topic is crazy :rolleyes

-
Will_Skill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #23   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you to
tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have
to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if
you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're
interested.


  #24   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Mark Zarella wrote: "Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000
challenge for you to tell the difference between any two amps of your
choosing. You don't have to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't
tell the difference and if you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info
for you if you're interested."

Aha!!! Well, Will...it appears as if he's called you. Now it's your turn.

Like you, I am skeptical about this whole amp SQ business. However, I have
learned one thing. I know tons more about car audio than all of my friends
put together. In my little "group" I am an obsessed car stereo nerd freak
guru. And the regulars on this newsgroup (yes, Mark included) are to me as
I am to my friends. This concept is just one of those things I'm slowly
digesting. You know? It's almost as if I can taste how good the truth is,
but my mouth still hasn't gotten used to it yet. Give it time. The
industry seems to have brainwashed us all.

My .02.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you

to
tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have
to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if
you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're
interested.




  #25   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow I
just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The high
and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of the
cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG
before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard a
difference yet again.




In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

I don't think you understand me correctly.

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like
absolute trash.

But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume
than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference
in SQ.

At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a
sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real
drum hit.

I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms.
No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing,
everything the same.

I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.

And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought
those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other
besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.




  #26   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow
I
just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The

high
and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of

the
cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG
before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard

a
difference yet again.


While you've got it handy, put it on a scope and tell me what the difference
is. If there's no difference in the electrical signal, then there's no
difference in the way the speaker moves air. So what other explanation is
there aside from magic ears?

Good ol' captain H., always the stubborn subjectivist...


  #27   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs and
nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the same
sound quality wise?


No. Car type, box type, crossover points, installation and all of the other
things that factor into SQ would play a role.

I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp that
ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounded
the same? Even at low volume.


Your really stuck on this low volume thing. It does not matter the volume as
long as it is not clipping. Though we often will percieve louder as better.

The way it sounds normally is gross, if it ever
clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitalis
could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move my
seats and dangle my my rearview ornament.


Everything you are saying was likely the result of a volume difference. SQ is
not was moves your seats and dangles ornaments.

I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself,
the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps.


I wish you did too because I wouldn't mind having an extra $1000.
No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping,
amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it for
myself. This topic is crazy

Any data I have seen would suggest different. The nature of physics suggests
different. You tell me how amps whose differences, in all ways, are less than
what we can even hear sound different? The factors that would be associated
with notes running together, and tightness are just not factors in modern
amplifier design.
And here is the point of this whole thing. Forget about the SQ of an amplifier.
There are more important things to consider for an amp, and there are factors
that contribute way more to the SQ of your system. Noobs just seem to get hung
up on this and forget about the rest of it, and yes Will you are included in
that.

Les
  #28   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I think our brains are constantly telling us that more expensive always = a
better product. In many cases this proves true, but with amps, I'm not so sure
it is. The most experienced members of the Car Audio community largly agree
there's no good reason for two evenly matched amps to sound different than one
another, at least not to a degree detectable by the human ear. I'm getting my
amp and speakers installed on Saturday, I bought a reference series Zapco amp
and a Dynaudio System 240 MKII. I originally wanted a competition series Zapco
or a Brax or an Arc Audio, but you know what I found out? When everything else
remained consistant, there was no detectable sound difference between the
three. And the only reason I bought the Zapco amp over the less expensive (and
actually more competant, according to stats on paper) Premium series Eclipse
amp is because of the awesome package deal this guy made me.
  #29   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds like
I have replaced the tweeters. My test bench voltage never changes nor does the
room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this amp
and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25% of
the amp with resistors. I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to
ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this time
to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still saving up
for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright
blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol






In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow

I
just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The

high
and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of

the
cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG
before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard

a
difference yet again.


While you've got it handy, put it on a scope and tell me what the difference
is. If there's no difference in the electrical signal, then there's no
difference in the way the speaker moves air. So what other explanation is
there aside from magic ears?

Good ol' captain H., always the stubborn subjectivist...


  #30   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds
like
I have replaced the tweeters.


So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is it
because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other.
I'm curious as to which you believe it is.

My test bench voltage never changes nor does the
room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this

amp
and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25%

of
the amp with resistors.


That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires
4 resistors per channel.

I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to
ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this

time
to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still

saving up
for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright
blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol


I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're
attributing it to the wrong thing. I think the burden is on you to tell us
what the difference is. Of course you must agree that the difference should
be present in the electrical trace of the output, right?




  #31   Report Post  
Jim Hoff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

a busted amp? Sounds like thermal runaway.




"Will_Skillz" wrote in message
...

I don't think you understand me correctly.

I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't
even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like
absolute trash.

But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume
than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference
in SQ.

At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a
sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real
drum hit.

I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms.
No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing,
everything the same.

I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words
like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound
difference.

And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you
said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought
those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other
besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same
sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load,
same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different.
PERIOD.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
http://www.RealCarAudio.com
Will_Skillz's Profile:

http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186
View this thread:

http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516



  #32   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Ah, I give up

One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing t
test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 fo
his self before he looses his money. In car

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is full
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why thes
things happen

You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It o
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in S
between amps. :

-
Will_Skill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community
http://www.RealCarAudio.co
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...nfo&userid=118
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...?threadid=4551

  #33   Report Post  
Chuck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

well i didn't kill them they committed suicide..the circuit protections
didn't work...(ah..the little red light didn't come on.. lol) Abuse?..Oh
you mean turning my amp up half way? I don't think so. You see I think
the amps didn't have enuff power and that made them work too hard.
100x4 is what everyone argued me to get ..i said more watt per channel
..and should have listened to myself i guess . You see i have a solo
baric and i turned it up all the way for eight years ..eh guess what it
still works fine. I bet i do find a amp thats worthy. Thanks anyway

  #34   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote:
Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds

like
I have replaced the tweeters.


So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is it
because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other.
I'm curious as to which you believe it is.

I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason that
this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting here.



My test bench voltage never changes nor does the
room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this

amp
and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25%

of
the amp with resistors.


That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires
4 resistors per channel.


This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels.

I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to
ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this

time
to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still

saving up
for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright
blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol


I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're
attributing it to the wrong thing.


What is the right thing and don't say power out?


I think the burden is on you to tell us
what the difference is. Of course you must agree that the difference should
be present in the electrical trace of the output, right?


Right


  #35   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these
things happen.


And your question has been answered before. Several times. You just refuse to
listen, and insist that your right. The only way that the difference was there
was if you had a faulty amp. But even so without test equipment we could not
know, because your "test" is meaningless.


You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ
between amps.


You can't. You are just too much of a noob to understand the scientific facts
and principles associated. Either that are you too much of an idiot to
understand them.

Les


  #36   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is
it
because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other.
I'm curious as to which you believe it is.

I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason

that
this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting

here.

So the new amp isn't providing a flat response? I'd have it checked out.

That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only

requires
4 resistors per channel.


This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels.


How much of that is input stage?

I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that

you're
attributing it to the wrong thing.


What is the right thing and don't say power out?


There are too many variables to be able to say for certain. That's why in
order to answer this question it's important to isolate variables so you can
come to a logically sound conclusion. You didn't isolate the important
variables, such as power, linearity, and listener bias.


  #37   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Ah, I give up.

One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing to
test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 for
his self before he looses his money. In car.

Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these
things happen.

You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or
Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ
between amps.


We can all tell the difference. But it's for different reasons than you've
provided.


  #38   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
http://www.RealCarAudio.com
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186
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  #39   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote:
So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is

it
because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other.
I'm curious as to which you believe it is.

I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason

that
this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting

here.

So the new amp isn't providing a flat response? I'd have it checked out.


The amp works fine.


That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only

requires
4 resistors per channel.


This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels.


How much of that is input stage?

I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that

you're
attributing it to the wrong thing.


What is the right thing and don't say power out?


There are too many variables to be able to say for certain. That's why in
order to answer this question it's important to isolate variables so you can
come to a logically sound conclusion. You didn't isolate the important
variables, such as power, linearity, and listener bias.


Never the less, there is a difference. Dunno what but there is one.

  #40   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


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