While I am aware that there is wide agreement that biamping speakers
with active crossovers yields large improvements, and that biwiring with one
amplifier is a subject with a variety of opinions, I have not seen anything
on the results of using the passive crossovers in biwire capable speakers
with two amps.
I am soliciting RAHE member opinons on the benefits of using the
existing biwire terminals of speakers for biamping. I have one old
friend/customer who has asked me about this, and I had to admit that I have
never tried it or known someone who did. I sense that among the RAHE
membership there is some experience out there to tap.
Those of you who have done this - Did you hear improvements in the
sound? If so, what was the magnitude of the change?

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store

Hi Wylie,

Until recently I didn't have an idea on what bi-amping could do on
bi-wire capable speakers using no active crossover, just the internal
passive ones. I was in a shop listening to a Linn setup with a friend
seeking a new system. The sales person told us on how the system could
improve by adding another amplifier, so we asked him to change the
setup. Wow... the improvements for that particular system where amazing.

So i began to feel an itch when it came to my own system. So I upgraded
my system with an extra amplifier and also this time the improvements
where quite drastic compared to the old bi-wire setup. More image depth,
better outlining of instruments and voices. It is as if the system has
much more power and has much more ease in "displaying" the music.

My system consists of one Densen DM20 pre-amplifier and 2 densen DM30
power-amplifiers connected with Linn K400 cable to bi-wire capable
Impulse Model 94 speakers (dutch brand transmission line speakers)

I don't know if it will improve every system I just found out it
improved my system and the linn system back in the store... and the
changes where quite dramatical and similar for both systems.

I hope this helps,

Bas van Beek



Wylie Williams schreef:
While I am aware that there is wide agreement that biamping speakers
with active crossovers yields large improvements, and that biwiring with one
amplifier is a subject with a variety of opinions, I have not seen anything
on the results of using the passive crossovers in biwire capable speakers
with two amps.
I am soliciting RAHE member opinons on the benefits of using the
existing biwire terminals of speakers for biamping. I have one old
friend/customer who has asked me about this, and I had to admit that I have
never tried it or known someone who did. I sense that among the RAHE
membership there is some experience out there to tap.
Those of you who have done this - Did you hear improvements in the
sound? If so, what was the magnitude of the change?

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store

One advantage that could be had, if the amplifiers had different gain and
the higher gain amp had input volume controls, would be that the balance
between the lower frequency and higher frequency range could be altered
to a possibily better tonal balance.

A second, well known advange, would be that one could use a tube amp for
the higher range and a solid state amp for the lower range and gain the
advantages of these different types of amplifier sound - smoothness and
more air in the highs, and better damping and control in the bass.

Wylie Williams wrote:
: While I am aware that there is wide agreement that biamping speakers
: with active crossovers yields large improvements, and that biwiring with one
: amplifier is a subject with a variety of opinions, I have not seen anything
: on the results of using the passive crossovers in biwire capable speakers
: with two amps.
: I am soliciting RAHE member opinons on the benefits of using the
: existing biwire terminals of speakers for biamping. I have one old
: friend/customer who has asked me about this, and I had to admit that I have
: never tried it or known someone who did. I sense that among the RAHE
: membership there is some experience out there to tap.
: Those of you who have done this - Did you hear improvements in the
: sound? If so, what was the magnitude of the change?

: Wylie Williams
: The Speaker and Stereo Store

--
Best regards,
Bascom King

A new related question has arisen. In a private post from an RAHE member
telling of his positive experience with passive biamping he said that he
didn't know whether the improvement might not be due to doubling the power.
Any experience with this, anyone?
Wylie Williams


"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
news:UTU%b.426696$na.929625@attbi_s04...
While I am aware that there is wide agreement that biamping speakers
with active crossovers yields large improvements, and that biwiring with
one
amplifier is a subject with a variety of opinions, I have not seen
anything
on the results of using the passive crossovers in biwire capable speakers
with two amps.
I am soliciting RAHE member opinons on the benefits of using the
existing biwire terminals of speakers for biamping. I have one old
friend/customer who has asked me about this, and I had to admit that I
have
never tried it or known someone who did. I sense that among the RAHE
membership there is some experience out there to tap.
Those of you who have done this - Did you hear improvements in the
sound? If so, what was the magnitude of the change?

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:20:57 GMT, Bascom King
wrote:

One advantage that could be had, if the amplifiers had different gain and
the higher gain amp had input volume controls, would be that the balance
between the lower frequency and higher frequency range could be altered
to a possibily better tonal balance.

A second, well known advange, would be that one could use a tube amp for
the higher range and a solid state amp for the lower range and gain the
advantages of these different types of amplifier sound - smoothness and
more air in the highs, and better damping and control in the bass.

It may be 'well known', but it's just another audio myth, since a
top-quality tube amp sounds *exactly* the same as a top-quality SS
amp, for the very good reason that both of them sound just like the
input signal. As my good friend Dick Pierce will instantly remind us,
'better damping' is also a myth! :-)

Of course, if you want 'warmth' and 'air' that was never in the input
signal, then go for a SET amp by all means.................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Wylie Williams" wrote
While I am aware that there is wide agreement that biamping speakers
with active crossovers yields large improvements, and that biwiring with one
amplifier is a subject with a variety of opinions, I have not seen anything
on the results of using the passive crossovers in biwire capable speakers
with two amps.
I am soliciting RAHE member opinons on the benefits of using the
existing biwire terminals of speakers for biamping. I have one old
friend/customer who has asked me about this, and I had to admit that I have
never tried it or known someone who did. I sense that among the RAHE
membership there is some experience out there to tap.
Those of you who have done this - Did you hear improvements in the
sound? If so, what was the magnitude of the change?


While I see you got a lot of interesting responses, some off the wall, let me
relate my personal experience. I have found that biwiring a speaker, or even
tri-wiring, if the speaker has that many inputs, always results in a noticeable
improvement.

As far as biamping with the internal crossovers or an external passive
crossover, I believe you would need two of the same amplifier since you have no
volume (or level) control for the second amp the way you do with an active
crossover. Using a second amplifier would increase the available power to the
speakers. For someone to claim that there is no sonic difference between tubed
and solid state amps would make me question any audio opinions that person put
forth.
Regards,
Mike

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message . Biamping does
*not*
double the power. With a competent amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no
difference whatever to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

Wylie Williams

On 29 Feb 2004 21:54:07 GMT, (Mkuller) wrote:

While I see you got a lot of interesting responses, some off the wall, let me
relate my personal experience. I have found that biwiring a speaker, or even
tri-wiring, if the speaker has that many inputs, always results in a noticeable
improvement.

I have found that it never makes a noticeable difference - unless one
of the wires comes loose................

As far as biamping with the internal crossovers or an external passive
crossover, I believe you would need two of the same amplifier since you have no
volume (or level) control for the second amp the way you do with an active
crossover. Using a second amplifier would increase the available power to the
speakers.

No, it won't. That is just plain *wrong*.

For someone to claim that there is no sonic difference between tubed
and solid state amps would make me question any audio opinions that person put
forth.

There are certainly a *few* tube amps which are of sufficiently high
quality that they sound just like a good SS amp, but I have never seen
anyone make the claim that you suggest - so making up that strawman
isn't helpful.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

So you do not believe in any differences between analog and digital as
far as the listener is concerned? It is all by the numbers, so to speak.
I am afraid that this has some interesting consequences to anechoic
chamber speaker design where they have had to cross reference the
numbers with blind listening tests.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:20:57 GMT, Bascom King
wrote:


One advantage that could be had, if the amplifiers had different gain and
the higher gain amp had input volume controls, would be that the balance
between the lower frequency and higher frequency range could be altered
to a possibily better tonal balance.

A second, well known advange, would be that one could use a tube amp for
the higher range and a solid state amp for the lower range and gain the
advantages of these different types of amplifier sound - smoothness and
more air in the highs, and better damping and control in the bass.


It may be 'well known', but it's just another audio myth, since a
top-quality tube amp sounds *exactly* the same as a top-quality SS
amp, for the very good reason that both of them sound just like the
input signal. As my good friend Dick Pierce will instantly remind us,
'better damping' is also a myth! :-)

Of course, if you want 'warmth' and 'air' that was never in the input
signal, then go for a SET amp by all means.................

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:20:25 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .

Biamping does *not*
double the power. With a competent amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no
difference whatever to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical* to
that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have doubled
the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing. Now, if you had
traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead of buying another one
the same, that would be different...........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:48:41 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:

So you do not believe in any differences between analog and digital as
far as the listener is concerned?

Not if both are of sufficient quality - this lets out LP, of course.

Many of the best CDs, such as all of the superb JVC XRCD range, are of
course made from analogue masters, so you are getting the best of both
worlds! :-)

It is all by the numbers, so to speak.
I am afraid that this has some interesting consequences to anechoic
chamber speaker design where they have had to cross reference the
numbers with blind listening tests.

Please expand on this intriguing comment.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

If you review the history of Canadian speaker design, www.paradigm.com,
the head designers made their reputation by developing a relationship
between thir numbers and listening tests.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:48:41 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:


So you do not believe in any differences between analog and digital as
far as the listener is concerned?


Not if both are of sufficient quality - this lets out LP, of course.

Many of the best CDs, such as all of the superb JVC XRCD range, are of
course made from analogue masters, so you are getting the best of both
worlds! :-)


It is all by the numbers, so to speak.
I am afraid that this has some interesting consequences to anechoic
chamber speaker design where they have had to cross reference the
numbers with blind listening tests.


Please expand on this intriguing comment.

"Wylie Williams"
wrote:
Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier have I not doubled
the power?



"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical* to
that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have doubled
the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing. Now, if you had
traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead of buying another one
the same, that would be different...........

I'm afraid this makes no sense. A bi-wireable or bi-ampable speaker usually
has two sets of inputs - one for the woofers and a second for the upper range
drivers. When using a single amplifer, the two inputs are connected by jumpers.
If you have effectively remove part of the speaker's crossover and some of its
drivers by bi-amping, the demand on each amp would be less. Therefore it would
take less voltage to drive it to the same loudness, right? So, biamping (with
two of the same amp) should allow you to play your music louder than with a
single amp. It would provide you more power and therefore more loudness before
clipping. What part of this don't you agree with, Mr. Pinkerton.
Regards,
Mike

Mkuller wrote:
"Wylie Williams"
wrote:
Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier have I not doubled
the power?


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical* to
that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have doubled
the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing. Now, if you had
traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead of buying another one
the same, that would be different...........

I'm afraid this makes no sense. A bi-wireable or bi-ampable speaker usually
has two sets of inputs - one for the woofers and a second for the upper range
drivers. When using a single amplifer, the two inputs are connected by jumpers.
If you have effectively remove part of the speaker's crossover and some of its
drivers by bi-amping, the demand on each amp would be less. Therefore it would
take less voltage to drive it to the same loudness, right? So, biamping (with
two of the same amp) should allow you to play your music louder than with a
single amp. It would provide you more power and therefore more loudness before
clipping. What part of this don't you agree with, Mr. Pinkerton.

If the amplifier is driven with the full range input signal (as it is in
every case of such setups and is what is invariably recomended in such speaker
manufactuers manuals) there is no advantage whatsoever. The amplifier will
enter voltage clipping at the same point. The load to it could differ, but
amplifiers with sufficiently low output impedance (read: 'nominally
competent') would not be materially affected.

This is not the case with biamping with electronic crossovers, where each
amplifier is usually driven with an input signal tailored to the particular
needs of the crossover and is thus band limited.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message news:CFO0c.432964$I06.4901251@attbi_s01...
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:20:25 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .

Biamping does *not* double the power. With a competent
amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no difference whatever
to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier
have I not doubled the power?

No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical*
to that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have
doubled the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing.
Now, if you had traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead
of buying another one the same, that would be different...........

Aren't you assuming that the original single amplifier was adequate
in size? Surely the voltage won't be identical if it was overloaded
in some circumstances. Even a Krell can't supply infinite current.

"L David Matheny" wrote in message ...
No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical*
to that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have
doubled the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing.
Now, if you had traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead
of buying another one the same, that would be different...........

Aren't you assuming that the original single amplifier was adequate
in size? Surely the voltage won't be identical if it was overloaded
in some circumstances. Even a Krell can't supply infinite current.

And precisely which speakers have a load impedance exactly equal
to 0 Ohms?

On 2 Mar 2004 19:01:14 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message news:CFO0c.432964$I06.4901251@attbi_s01...
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:20:25 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .

Biamping does *not* double the power. With a competent
amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no difference whatever
to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier
have I not doubled the power?

No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical*
to that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have
doubled the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing.
Now, if you had traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead
of buying another one the same, that would be different...........

Aren't you assuming that the original single amplifier was adequate
in size?

Yes, or at least in current capability.

Surely the voltage won't be identical if it was overloaded
in some circumstances.

Correct, but considering the relatively low power delivered to the
tweeter in the classic two-way, this is an unlikely scenario.

Even a Krell can't supply infinite current.

It can however cope with a 1-ohm load quite happily, which is usually
sufficient! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 2 Mar 2004 05:21:25 GMT, (Mkuller) wrote:

"Wylie Williams"
wrote:
Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical* to
that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have doubled
the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing. Now, if you had
traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead of buying another one
the same, that would be different...........

I'm afraid this makes no sense.

On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. I will try to explain, as
simply as possible.......

A bi-wireable or bi-ampable speaker usually
has two sets of inputs - one for the woofers and a second for the upper range
drivers.

Yes.

When using a single amplifer, the two inputs are connected by jumpers.

Yes.

If you have effectively remove part of the speaker's crossover and some of its
drivers by bi-amping, the demand on each amp would be less.

Yes, although the tweeter generally takes only a small fraction of the
bass/mid power, so the reduction in loading is pretty marginal for the
classic two-way speaker.

Therefore it would
take less voltage to drive it to the same loudness, right?

No, it takes *exactly* the same voltage. It takes less *current*, but
amplifiers are voltage sources, so unless your amp has a very weak
power supply (think cheap AV amps) and sags badly under reasonable
load, the loudness will be identical.

So, biamping (with
two of the same amp) should allow you to play your music louder than with a
single amp.

No, it won't.

It would provide you more power and therefore more loudness before
clipping. What part of this don't you agree with, Mr. Pinkerton.

All of it - see above. Unless you use an active crossover, the two
amps deliver exactly the same voltage waveform to the speaker
terminals, so they will clip at exactly the same point, whether
biamped, biwired, or single-wired. With which part of the above do you
not agree?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:31:02 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:

If you review the history of Canadian speaker design, www.paradigm.com,
the head designers made their reputation by developing a relationship
between thir numbers and listening tests.

Indeed they did, but what has this to do with digital vs analogue?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

The measurements were not able to completely quantify the full listening
experience. What is left over is subjective, not by the numbers,
analogue listening experience.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:31:02 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:


If you review the history of Canadian speaker design, www.paradigm.com,
the head designers made their reputation by developing a relationship
between thir numbers and listening tests.


Indeed they did, but what has this to do with digital vs analogue?

If the power supply voltage in the amplifier would be absolutely stable,
there wouldn't be a difference in power using two amps in biwire
configuration. But the power supply voltage drops considerably under load.
You can see that looking at the specs of an amplifier. Only the very best
amps have specs like: 200 Watts into 8 Ohm, 400 Watts into 4 Ohm. That is
the theoretical behavior of an amp that has a stable (big and fat) power
supply. Most amp's specs read like this: 200 Watts into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts
into 4 Ohms. That's because power supply can't deliver enough current,
therefore the voltage drops, resulting in less power than the theoretical
value with the lesser impedance.
A power supply has to supply a higher current (not higher voltage) if the
amp has to drive both Lows and Mid/Highs. That results in a lower voltage of
the power supply, therefore less available power at clip point. It's a guess
that about 5-10% more power is available taking two identical amps with two
power supplies instead of one. If there is only one power supply involved
anyway, there will be no difference.
The reason why bi-wiring a passive speaker can result in an improvement is
the speaker cable resistance. When a signal is supplied to a woofer, the
woofer is never exactly moving like it should. Any error in the movement
will result in a voltage not correlated to the program fed to the speaker.
It's the amps job to shorten the voltage from the speaker, that's damping.
The "error" voltage coming from the woofer is basically shorted out at the
speaker terminals. That means it won't interfere, or get into, the Mid/High
speakers as easily as if there were cable resistance to the amplifier
terminal (short out point) but not to the Mid/High speakers. In other words,
the signal can be cleaner going to the Mid/High when using bi-wire.
Consider that the "error" or back-emf voltage from the Lows could be in the
lower Mid range....

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:WbL0c.157821$uV3.706473@attbi_s51...
On 29 Feb 2004 21:54:07 GMT, (Mkuller) wrote:

While I see you got a lot of interesting responses, some off the wall,
let me
relate my personal experience. I have found that biwiring a speaker, or
even
tri-wiring, if the speaker has that many inputs, always results in a
noticeable
improvement.

I have found that it never makes a noticeable difference - unless one
of the wires comes loose................

As far as biamping with the internal crossovers or an external passive
crossover, I believe you would need two of the same amplifier since you
have no
volume (or level) control for the second amp the way you do with an
active
crossover. Using a second amplifier would increase the available power
to the
speakers.

No, it won't. That is just plain *wrong*.

For someone to claim that there is no sonic difference between tubed
and solid state amps would make me question any audio opinions that
person put
forth.

There are certainly a *few* tube amps which are of sufficiently high
quality that they sound just like a good SS amp, but I have never seen
anyone make the claim that you suggest - so making up that strawman
isn't helpful.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:_Wp1c.451454$I06.5068672@attbi_s01...
On 2 Mar 2004 19:01:14 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:CFO0c.432964$I06.4901251@attbi_s01...
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:20:25 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .

Biamping does *not* double the power. With a competent
amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no difference whatever
to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier
have I not doubled the power?

No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical*
to that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have
doubled the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing.
Now, if you had traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead
of buying another one the same, that would be different...........

Aren't you assuming that the original single amplifier was adequate
in size?

Yes, or at least in current capability.

Surely the voltage won't be identical if it was overloaded
in some circumstances.

Correct, but considering the relatively low power delivered to the
tweeter in the classic two-way, this is an unlikely scenario.

Even a Krell can't supply infinite current.

It can however cope with a 1-ohm load quite happily, which is usually
sufficient! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"L David Matheny" wrote in message
...
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:CFO0c.432964$I06.4901251@attbi_s01...
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:20:25 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .

Biamping does *not* double the power. With a competent
amplifier such as a Krell, it makes no difference whatever
to the power delivered to the speaker. Just another
'subjectivist' audiophile myth.

Now I am confused! If I add another identical amplifier
have I not doubled the power?

No, because the voltage at the speaker terminals is *identical*
to that which would occur if you single-wired. Hence, you have
doubled the cost of your amplifier and have achieved nothing.
Now, if you had traded up to a more powerful stereo amp instead
of buying another one the same, that would be different...........

Aren't you assuming that the original single amplifier was adequate
in size? Surely the voltage won't be identical if it was overloaded
in some circumstances. Even a Krell can't supply infinite current.

When you bi-amplify, one amplifier supplies power to the bass, and the
other to the treble. The tweeter amplifier is useless when you need
more woofer power. So, if you have 2 identical amplifiers, one
supplying the tweeter and the other the woofer, the only time you're
going to get full power out of both of them is on the rare occasion
when the power demand in the highs is the same as in the lows, and
furthermore you need all of it. I've never seen such a case, so for
all practical purposes, you still have just one amplifier available to
handle peak power requirements.

If you're having trouble understanding, think of an 8-lane
superhighway--4 lanes in each direction. In the morning the
outbound traffic is light and the incoming traffic is jammed. In the
evening, the reverse is true. The only time you are fully utilizing
the highway is when the traffic is equal in both directions, and
sufficiently dense to make use of every lane. This problem is so
common that many highways have reversable lanes that can be added in
whichever direction needs them the most.

Cheers,

Norm Strong

"Hasenpfeffer" wrote in message news:mow1c.452889$I06.5099313@attbi_s01...
If the power supply voltage in the amplifier would be absolutely stable,
there wouldn't be a difference in power using two amps in biwire
configuration. But the power supply voltage drops considerably under load.

"Considerably?" Really? How much?

You can see that looking at the specs of an amplifier. Only the very best
amps have specs like: 200 Watts into 8 Ohm, 400 Watts into 4 Ohm. That is
the theoretical behavior of an amp that has a stable (big and fat) power
supply. Most amp's specs read like this: 200 Watts into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts
into 4 Ohms. That's because power supply can't deliver enough current,
therefore the voltage drops, resulting in less power than the theoretical
value with the lesser impedance.

That may all well be true, but you're talking about extreme limits
here, and your argument holds ONLY when clipping. The claims of
biwiring improvement suggest that the advantage occurs at ALL power
levels, negating your argument.

The reason why bi-wiring a passive speaker can result in an improvement is
the speaker cable resistance.

Fine, THEN JUST REPLACE THE CABLE WITH LESS RESISTANCE!

When a signal is supplied to a woofer, the
woofer is never exactly moving like it should. Any error in the movement
will result in a voltage not correlated to the program fed to the speaker.
It's the amps job to shorten the voltage from the speaker, that's damping.

Uh, basically, wrong.

As has been pointed out numerous times, damping in a speaker results
from energy normally exchanged between reactive elements in a resonant
system (for example, between the mass and comp,iance in a spaker) being
dissipated by a resistive or frictional element. There are several such
mechanisms available in a speaker:

1. Losses through electrical resistance

2. Losses through mechanical friction in driver suspension
and absorbtion in the enclosure

3. Losses in the acoustical radiation impedance, e.g. "sound."

The "error" voltage coming from the woofer is basically shorted out at the
speaker terminals.

Wrong, just plain wrong. Your simple analysis completely ignores
the fact that ALL of these drivers have a SUBSTANTIAL resistance
that completely overwhelms the effect of the cable resistance:
the DC resistance of the voice coil.

That means it won't interfere, or get into, the Mid/High
speakers as easily as if there were cable resistance to the amplifier
terminal (short out point) but not to the Mid/High speakers. In other words,
the signal can be cleaner going to the Mid/High when using bi-wire.

If your assertion was true, and that would require the suspension
of basic physical laws, notably Ohm's law for one, such effects would
be trivial to measure and verify objectively. Yet not a single shred
of such evidence is ever advanced.

Let's see, in fact, how much signal voltage you're talking about.
Assume a nominal 8 ohm impedance, with a voice coil resistance of 6.5
ohms. Now assume the amplifier has an output impedance of 0.08 ohms
(a "damping factor" of 100) output impedance our speaker are connected
with 15 feet of 12 gauge wire which adds 0.05 ohms to the total.

Now, ANY signal, such as the evil "back EMF" will be attenuated by
effective series attenuator formed by the voice coil resistance
and the amplifier/cable resistance. Let's first look at the case
assuming perfect, no-loss cables. The "back-EMF signal" at the
speaker terminals will be:

Atten(dB) = 20 log 0.08 / (0.08 + 6.5)

Atten(dB) = -38.3 dB

Now, let's put our dreadful 12 gauge speaker cables in with their
horrible resistance. At the speaker terminals, we have an attenuation
of:

Atten(dB) = 20 log (0.08 + 0.05) / (0.08 + 0.05 + 6.5)

Atten(dB) = -34.2 dB

and at the amplifier terminals, we will find such a signal
attenuated by:

Atten(dB) = 20 log 0.08 / (0.08 + 0.05 + 6.5)

Atten(dB) = -38.4 dB

Okay, now let's LOOK at what we have found: biwiring has reduced the
potential signal at the high-frequency terminals from -38.3 dB to
-38.4 dB.

Please show us how this is an improvement.

Now, the MAXIMUM voltage we will find will be at the fundamental
resonance, at the lowest limit of the speaker's range. Let's
assume a typicla case of a system with a 40 Hz resonance. And let's
assume a two-way system with a low crossover frequency of 1500 Hz,
second order, 5 octaves higher. That means that whatever signal
exists at 40 Hz will be attenuated already by the crossever by
60 dB. This means that the BEST improvement we can find due to
biwiring is from about -98.3 to -98.4 dB

Can you, with a straught face, suggest that taking your assertions
to their logical end shows that the claims of audible improvement
are, at best, tenuously unfounded?

Further, as you assert below, the dreaded "back-emf" will be at
PRECISLY the same frequency as the stimulus that caused it.

Consider that the "error" or back-emf voltage from the Lows could be in the
lower Mid range....

No, it absolutely WILL NOT be "in the lower midrange. If there IS
"back-EMF (one of the simplest and, as this post shows, most poorly
understoof concepts in the realm of high-end audio) at low frequencies,
unless the speaker is SERIOUSLY broken, it will REMAIN at EXACTLY the
same frequency that caused it.

Norm Strong wrote:
When you bi-amplify, one amplifier supplies power to the bass, and the
other to the treble.

It would make more sence to do a vertical bi-amping, using one amplifier per
speaker, one channel for the bass and one for the treble.

Regards,
Karsten

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:21:06 GMT, "Hasenpfeffer"
wrote:

The reason why bi-wiring a passive speaker can result in an improvement is
the speaker cable resistance. When a signal is supplied to a woofer, the
woofer is never exactly moving like it should. Any error in the movement
will result in a voltage not correlated to the program fed to the speaker.
It's the amps job to shorten the voltage from the speaker, that's damping.
The "error" voltage coming from the woofer is basically shorted out at the
speaker terminals. That means it won't interfere, or get into, the Mid/High
speakers as easily as if there were cable resistance to the amplifier
terminal (short out point) but not to the Mid/High speakers. In other words,
the signal can be cleaner going to the Mid/High when using bi-wire.
Consider that the "error" or back-emf voltage from the Lows could be in the
lower Mid range....

Such effects *may* exist, but they exist at levels *at least* 60dB
below the fundamental, and *only* in the octave surrounding the
crossover point.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:23:26 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:

The measurements were not able to completely quantify the full listening
experience. What is left over is subjective, not by the numbers,
analogue listening experience.

Whaaaat? This has *nothing* to do with digital vs analogue, it's
simply a comparison of objective measures vs subjective assessment.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:31:02 GMT, Philip Meech
wrote:

If you review the history of Canadian speaker design, www.paradigm.com,
the head designers made their reputation by developing a relationship
between thir numbers and listening tests.

Indeed they did, but what has this to do with digital vs analogue?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Now I am confused! If I add another identical
amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

Assume your speaker is 8 ohms with biwire ternimals
jumpered, and that the woofer and the tweeter each are
16 ohms individually. The total impedance is then 8
ohms: (8 + 8)/2. Also assume you have a "perfect
voltage source" as an amplifier, so that it doubles its
power as the impedance halves, and at the amp is rated
at 50W at 8 ohms. At the 16 ohm load of the woofer and
the tweeter in biwire mode, the each amp's power is now
only 25W. There is an advantage of using two amps this
way, which is that heavy demands on the woofer do not
affect the tweeter.

If you now have two identical amps and you want more
power, contact the manufacturer and find out if the
amps are bridgeable (few are) and how to do it. Then
you would quadruple the power.

Tip

"Tip" wrote in message news:H672c.123762$4o.163493@attbi_s52...
Now I am confused! If I add another identical
amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

Assume your speaker is 8 ohms with biwire ternimals
jumpered, and that the woofer and the tweeter each are
16 ohms individually. The total impedance is then 8
ohms: (8 + 8)/2.

Except this is absolutely NOT how speakers work and this,
since your premise is flawed, your conclusions are suspect.

A nominal 8 ohm impedance 2-way speaker is NOT the result
of two 16 ohm speakers hooked in parallel. If you were to
discinnect them from one another, you'd find that, within
the operating range of each, the impedance is 8 ohms.

In other words, the impedance of the woofer section is 8
ohms over the operating range of the woofer, and it's
higher outside that range. Similarily, the impedance of
the tweeter is 8 ohms within the operating range of the
tweeter, and increases outside that range.

Now, you take that 8 ohm woofer and its crossover, connect
it in parallel with the 8 ohm tweeter and its crossover and
measure the impedance of the whole thing and it is:

8 ohms.

Also assume you have a "perfect
voltage source" as an amplifier, so that it doubles its
power as the impedance halves, and at the amp is rated
at 50W at 8 ohms. At the 16 ohm load of the woofer and
the tweeter in biwire mode, the each amp's power is now
only 25W. There is an advantage of using two amps this
way, which is that heavy demands on the woofer do not
affect the tweeter.

And, because your basic assumption is wrong, this conclusion
is wrong. The impedance of the entire speaker is 8 ohms, and
that of each section is ALSO 8 ohms.

Tip,
If the speaker is rated 8ohms, then the individual speakers, be it
woofer, midrange and/or tweeter are going to be 8ohms as well, the crossover
keeps the impedance of the drivers from paralleling. keithw...

"Tip" wrote in message
news:H672c.123762$4o.163493@attbi_s52...
Now I am confused! If I add another identical
amplifier have I not doubled
the power?

Assume your speaker is 8 ohms with biwire ternimals
jumpered, and that the woofer and the tweeter each are
16 ohms individually. The total impedance is then 8
ohms: (8 + 8)/2. Also assume you have a "perfect
voltage source" as an amplifier, so that it doubles its
power as the impedance halves, and at the amp is rated
at 50W at 8 ohms. At the 16 ohm load of the woofer and
the tweeter in biwire mode, the each amp's power is now
only 25W. There is an advantage of using two amps this
way, which is that heavy demands on the woofer do not
affect the tweeter.

If you now have two identical amps and you want more
power, contact the manufacturer and find out if the
amps are bridgeable (few are) and how to do it. Then
you would quadruple the power.

Tip