[Simonel]

My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often
down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital optical/coaxial
outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue
connections. Yet my player is set up NOT to do that and the sound
quality I get cannot be explained by sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3
signal or some form of mpeg from the digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to
a D/A convertor (which serves in effect as a pre-amp) with no analog
in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Simonel

[ScottW]

"Simonel" wrote in message
...
My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Is it? Nothing here to indicate that it will do more than 16/44.
"You can choose the audio format from high quality
(up to 6 hours PCM 48kHz/16bits) or high quantity (up to 45 hours AC3 192kbps)."

http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/

Doesn't really explain your problem....
I suggest you try your DVDs on a friends system and see
how they sound.

ScottW

[[email protected]]

Simonel wrote:
My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often
down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital optical/coaxial
outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue
connections. Yet my player is set up NOT to do that and the sound
quality I get cannot be explained by sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3
signal or some form of mpeg from the digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to
a D/A convertor (which serves in effect as a pre-amp) with no analog
in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Simonel

I would suggest you try getting your analog-outs to work. It looks your
DVD player is down-sampling before sending to your optical output to
protect the copyrighted material. Most DVD/SACD players, to prevent the
consumer from making superb 24/192 digital copies of the discs,
downsample before feeding to any digital output. Your homemade DVDs may
not have copy protection and that may be why they sound great, the DVD
palyer sends all the bits unaltered straight to your optical output.

CD

[Steven Sullivan]

wrote:
Simonel wrote:
My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often
down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital optical/coaxial
outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue
connections. Yet my player is set up NOT to do that and the sound
quality I get cannot be explained by sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3
signal or some form of mpeg from the digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to
a D/A convertor (which serves in effect as a pre-amp) with no analog
in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Simonel

I would suggest you try getting your analog-outs to work. It looks your
DVD player is down-sampling before sending to your optical output to
protect the copyrighted material. Most DVD/SACD players, to prevent the
consumer from making superb 24/192 digital copies of the discs,
downsample before feeding to any digital output. Your homemade DVDs may
not have copy protection and that may be why they sound great, the DVD
palyer sends all the bits unaltered straight to your optical output.

For it to sound as bad as he claims, the player must be doing a very poor
job of downsampling.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Norman M. Schwartz]

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Simonel wrote:
My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often
down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital optical/coaxial
outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue
connections. Yet my player is set up NOT to do that and the sound
quality I get cannot be explained by sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3
signal or some form of mpeg from the digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to
a D/A convertor (which serves in effect as a pre-amp) with no analog
in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Simonel

I would suggest you try getting your analog-outs to work. It looks your
DVD player is down-sampling before sending to your optical output to
protect the copyrighted material. Most DVD/SACD players, to prevent the
consumer from making superb 24/192 digital copies of the discs,
downsample before feeding to any digital output. Your homemade DVDs may
not have copy protection and that may be why they sound great, the DVD
palyer sends all the bits unaltered straight to your optical output.

For it to sound as bad as he claims, the player must be doing a very poor
job of downsampling.


None my recent DVD Videos from the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, Keeping
Score, sounds like s**t as heard on my Maggie system.
http://www.keepingscore.org/

[Simonel]

I took a good quality high rez (24/96) raw WAV files that were used to
make a DVD-A. I made an audio-DVD from them and a sampled down CD
version and compared to the DVD-A version.

Sampled down CD version and DVD-A version sounded perfect on my setup;
same file on audio-DVD sounded like ****. Does that prove it's the
Audio DVD Creator software? No, because the ****ty audio-DVD sounded
like all ****ty commercial music DVD's. It may have to do with the
copyright protection mechanism on the player, which may distort and
downgrade (in addition to downsample) the signal coming from video
DVD's (audio-DVD is a video DVD) but doesn't touch CD's and DVD-A's.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with the good guys in Benchmark.
They say a lot of DVD players downgrade the quality of the signal
coming out of the digi out due to copyright laws, to prevent consumers
from making perfect digital copies (that's a separate issue from
downsampling.) They don't know which DVD players can work well with
an external DAC.

Does anyone here have this kind of setup (consumer grade DVD
playerdigi outDAC), where the DVD player is happily married to the
external DAC (i.e., good sound from music video DVD's)?

Simonel

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
I took a good quality high rez (24/96) raw WAV files that were used to
make a DVD-A. I made an audio-DVD from them and a sampled down CD
version and compared to the DVD-A version.

Sampled down CD version and DVD-A version sounded perfect on my setup;
same file on audio-DVD sounded like ****. Does that prove it's the
Audio DVD Creator software? No, because the ****ty audio-DVD sounded
like all ****ty commercial music DVD's. It may have to do with the
copyright protection mechanism on the player, which may distort and
downgrade (in addition to downsample) the signal coming from video
DVD's (audio-DVD is a video DVD) but doesn't touch CD's and DVD-A's.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with the good guys in Benchmark.
They say a lot of DVD players downgrade the quality of the signal
coming out of the digi out due to copyright laws, to prevent consumers
from making perfect digital copies (that's a separate issue from
downsampling.) They don't know which DVD players can work well with
an external DAC.

Does anyone here have this kind of setup (consumer grade DVD
playerdigi outDAC), where the DVD player is happily married to the
external DAC (i.e., good sound from music video DVD's)?

A *great* many people, including myself, have such a setup, where the outboard DAC is
in an AV receiver, as are the Dolby Digital/DTS decoders. The classical DVD-Vs I own (e.g.
Pollini playing the 'Emperor" Concerto) sound fine to me.

The Benchmark people are giving you curious information. DVD-V copy protection is usually
encoded in the disc itself, thought he player must be licensed to descramble it (and leaving
aside the issue of region codes). The only 'quality reduction' I'm aware of through digital
outputs is for high-resolution sources, where some discs and players allow downsampled hi-rez
stereo (e.g. 96kHz/24bit DVD-Audio downsampled to 48 kHz)) to be passed digitally via
optical/coax digital.

Does your DAC decode Dolby Digital and/or DTS? What is your DVD player
outputting, bitstream or PCM?

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Simonel]

Does your DAC decode Dolby Digital and/or DTS?

No, it's the Benchmark DAC1.

What is your DVD player
outputting, bitstream or PCM?

It's set to output PCM, and the DAC1 can read only PCM. If the
soundtrack is not PCM, the DVD player converts it to PCM.

I don't have a problem conceptually with AC3 converted by the player to
PCM sounding bad, but LPCM sound tracks are not consistently better. I
think I just have to replace the DVD player, but I would appreciate
recommendations for a consumer grade one that would work well with this
kind of setup.

Simonel

[[email protected]]

Simonel wrote:
I took a good quality high rez (24/96) raw WAV files that were used to
make a DVD-A. I made an audio-DVD from them and a sampled down CD
version and compared to the DVD-A version.

Sampled down CD version and DVD-A version sounded perfect on my setup;
same file on audio-DVD sounded like ****. Does that prove it's the
Audio DVD Creator software? No, because the ****ty audio-DVD sounded
like all ****ty commercial music DVD's. It may have to do with the
copyright protection mechanism on the player, which may distort and
downgrade (in addition to downsample) the signal coming from video
DVD's (audio-DVD is a video DVD) but doesn't touch CD's and DVD-A's.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with the good guys in Benchmark.
They say a lot of DVD players downgrade the quality of the signal
coming out of the digi out due to copyright laws, to prevent consumers
from making perfect digital copies (that's a separate issue from
downsampling.) They don't know which DVD players can work well with
an external DAC.

Does anyone here have this kind of setup (consumer grade DVD
playerdigi outDAC), where the DVD player is happily married to the
external DAC (i.e., good sound from music video DVD's)?

Simonel

Look further into the setup of your DVD player. There may be a setting
which determines how it outputs audio from DVD video.

CD

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
Does your DAC decode Dolby Digital and/or DTS?

No, it's the Benchmark DAC1.

What is your DVD player
outputting, bitstream or PCM?

It's set to output PCM, and the DAC1 can read only PCM. If the
soundtrack is not PCM, the DVD player converts it to PCM.

So, you're listening to the stereo tracks (not the surround
tracks), in stereo, correct?

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Simonel]

So, you're listening to the stereo tracks (not the surround
tracks), in stereo, correct?

Correct, Simonel

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
So, you're listening to the stereo tracks (not the surround
tracks), in stereo, correct?

Correct, Simonel

First, have you determined that the settings in your DVD player (what model is it?) are
correct, such as to give 'neutral' output of all formats?

Second, try ripping a good-sounding CD to hard drive, burn it to DVD as 16/44 LPCM (the same
data rates as CD) and compare that to the original CD. Does the DVD still sound different from
the CD? They're both supposedly being output as 16/44 LPCM. Does your player provide any
output format information, or does your receiver or DAC give any input data information?
Either of these might be used to verify what formats are actually being passed.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Simonel]

I received my new Denon DVD 2910 yesterday and hooked it up to the DAC1
via optical. The improvement in the sound quality of DVD-V's of all
kinds is dramatic, simply unbelievable. One after the other all these
DVD's I have lost hope on have deep, impressive bass that kicks the
speakers/headphones; rich open sound and voices are not so upfront but
have depth. For the first time LPCM does sound like the best format for
soundtracks when there are several options.

CD's or DVD-A's are not that much better that I can detect it right
away, but a friend's CD's that had clipping all over them are now
free of any clipping. I can now use the and functions on
audio-DVD's burned with the Audio DVD Creator, which I couldn't
with the older player.

I can't believe I've subjected myself to the crappy sound coming
out of DVD soundtracks played on the older DVD player for 3 years,
based on my theory that all zeros and ones coming out of digital
outputs are the same. They definitely are not the same and apparently
the digital stage is a lot more complicated than just outputting zeros
and ones.

If that was not enough, I discovered to my dismay that the new player
not only plays PAL DVD's, but also converts them to NTSC for my
ancient NTSC-only TV. I can now play my HARDY PAL Orange
Caballe/Vickers 1973 Norma for the first time with good sound
(considering the source) and good picture. I did a simple remote
control hack to make it region code free. Needless to say I am very
excited - it's like I got an entirely new DVD collection - the
sound is that much better.

Simonel

Simonel wrote:
My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A
convertorXLR's2 monoblocksspeakers. All the components are
stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose
rational is to use the shortest signal pathway) I get superb sound from
CD's, but opera and concert DVD's sound shrill, metallic and
constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD's
sound equally bad - newer ones, particularly from the Universal group
with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they still
never sound as good as CD's. I have just assumed that DVD's'
sound sucks and that's the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I tape a lot our little group of
amateur players using professional equipment (Schoeps mics, etc.) and
get superb results burning them to CD's. Another member of our group
sometimes tapes us using every imaginable high-end mic and other
high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb
results burning them to sampled down CD's or to DVD-A's using
DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A's.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn
the results to sampled down CD's or to audio-DVD's (NOT DVD-A's)
using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video
DVD's with just still images or black background and a soundtrack
that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz (about 4 hours) and can play on any
DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often
down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital optical/coaxial
outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue
connections. Yet my player is set up NOT to do that and the sound
quality I get cannot be explained by sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3
signal or some form of mpeg from the digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to
a D/A convertor (which serves in effect as a pre-amp) with no analog
in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Simonel

[Harry Lavo]

"Simonel" wrote in message
...
I received my new Denon DVD 2910 yesterday and hooked it up to the DAC1
via optical. The improvement in the sound quality of DVD-V's of all
kinds is dramatic, simply unbelievable. One after the other all these
DVD's I have lost hope on have deep, impressive bass that kicks the
speakers/headphones; rich open sound and voices are not so upfront but
have depth. For the first time LPCM does sound like the best format for
soundtracks when there are several options.

CD's or DVD-A's are not that much better that I can detect it right
away, but a friend's CD's that had clipping all over them are now
free of any clipping. I can now use the and functions on
audio-DVD's burned with the Audio DVD Creator, which I couldn't
with the older player.

I can't believe I've subjected myself to the crappy sound coming
out of DVD soundtracks played on the older DVD player for 3 years,
based on my theory that all zeros and ones coming out of digital
outputs are the same. They definitely are not the same and apparently
the digital stage is a lot more complicated than just outputting zeros
and ones.

If that was not enough, I discovered to my dismay that the new player
not only plays PAL DVD's, but also converts them to NTSC for my
ancient NTSC-only TV. I can now play my HARDY PAL Orange
Caballe/Vickers 1973 Norma for the first time with good sound
(considering the source) and good picture. I did a simple remote
control hack to make it region code free. Needless to say I am very
excited - it's like I got an entirely new DVD collection - the
sound is that much better.

Simonel

Let this be fair warning to any others here about to buy into the "buy
cheap, everything sounds the same anyway" school of thought so prevalent
here on RAHE these days.

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
I received my new Denon DVD 2910 yesterday and hooked it up to the DAC1
via optical. The improvement in the sound quality of DVD-V's of all
kinds is dramatic, simply unbelievable. One after the other all these
DVD's I have lost hope on have deep, impressive bass that kicks the
speakers/headphones; rich open sound and voices are not so upfront but
have depth. For the first time LPCM does sound like the best format for
soundtracks when there are several options.

CD's or DVD-A's are not that much better that I can detect it right
away, but a friend's CD's that had clipping all over them are now
free of any clipping. I can now use the and functions on
audio-DVD's burned with the Audio DVD Creator, which I couldn't
with the older player.

I can't believe I've subjected myself to the crappy sound coming
out of DVD soundtracks played on the older DVD player for 3 years,
based on my theory that all zeros and ones coming out of digital
outputs are the same. They definitely are not the same and apparently
the digital stage is a lot more complicated than just outputting zeros
and ones.

Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if I were you.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Steven Sullivan]

Harry Lavo wrote:
Let this be fair warning to any others here about to buy into the "buy
cheap, everything sounds the same anyway" school of thought so prevalent
here on RAHE these days.

Except, it's nothing of the sort, Harry. The 'school of thought' you refer
to requires much more evidence for the OP's claims than was provided.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Simonel]

Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if I were you.

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for "bit
transparency", i.e., how accurately they output through the digital
outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt
a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with
what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old
player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely
poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

Simonel

[Simonel]

Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if I were you.

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for "bit
transparency", i.e., how accurately they output through the digital
outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt
a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with
what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old
player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely
poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

***Addendum: he also tested the cheap Panasonic S47 and the cheap
Pioneer 578 - they were both fine, or "bit transparent" but are both no
longer available. So it's not exactly a question of cheap or expensive,
but I would assume those higher quality well reviewed (and more
expensive) players are more likely to be "bit transparent."

Also, DENON tech support told me that all their 2xxx and up series DO
NOT downsample from the digital connections (most players do.)

Simonel

[[email protected]]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
Harry Lavo wrote:
Let this be fair warning to any others here about to buy into the "buy
cheap, everything sounds the same anyway" school of thought so prevalent
here on RAHE these days.

Except, it's nothing of the sort, Harry. The 'school of thought' you refer
to requires much more evidence for the OP's claims than was provided.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

Exactly. I'm curious as to what was the OPs original DVD player, and
whether or not the Denon AND the DAC1 were added at the same time or
not.

CD

[bob]

Simonel wrote:
Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if I were you.

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for "bit
transparency", i.e., how accurately they output through the digital
outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt
a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with
what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old
player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely
poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

Be nice to know what "extremely poorly" means.

***Addendum: he also tested the cheap Panasonic S47 and the cheap
Pioneer 578 - they were both fine, or "bit transparent" but are both no
longer available. So it's not exactly a question of cheap or expensive,

So they tested a single unit of three different models, and one of the
three "performed extremely poorly" in some unspecified way. This isn't
enough information to tell us whether they had a defective design, a
defective sample, or a more general problem with DVD players. So far,
you haven't eliminated a single one of the possibilities Steven
suggested.

but I would assume those higher quality well reviewed (and more
expensive) players are more likely to be "bit transparent."

That's quite an assumption, given that you've got absolutely nothing
backing it up.

bob

[Harry Lavo]

"Simonel" wrote in message
...
Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were
suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really
determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if
I were you.

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for "bit
transparency", i.e., how accurately they output through the digital
outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt
a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with
what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old
player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely
poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

***Addendum: he also tested the cheap Panasonic S47 and the cheap
Pioneer 578 - they were both fine, or "bit transparent" but are both no
longer available. So it's not exactly a question of cheap or expensive,
but I would assume those higher quality well reviewed (and more
expensive) players are more likely to be "bit transparent."

Also, DENON tech support told me that all their 2xxx and up series DO
NOT downsample from the digital connections (most players do.)

I own and use a 578 for video and DVD-A, and have auditioned it through my
DAC. I can attest to the fact that it is a very straightforward transport
and sounds fine. It is a superb DVD-A player, and a good all round
performer. Pioneer had a real winner here in its 578, and its predecessor
the 563. I suspect it may have cannibalized a lot of higher end sales and
had a lot of guts for a cheap player, which may be why it disappeared from
the market so quickly. I didn't use it this way, so can't swear, but I
believe it could also be configured to put out a 96k spdif DAD signal.

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
Or, your old player is broken. Or, its user-defined settings were suboptimal/different from
the new one's. Or, you are imagining the difference. You haven't really determined which of
these might pertain, so I'd refrain from blaming the 'digital outputs' if I were you.

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for "bit
transparency", i.e., how accurately they output through the digital
outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt
a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with
what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old
player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely
poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

***Addendum: he also tested the cheap Panasonic S47 and the cheap
Pioneer 578 - they were both fine, or "bit transparent" but are both no
longer available. So it's not exactly a question of cheap or expensive,
but I would assume those higher quality well reviewed (and more
expensive) players are more likely to be "bit transparent."

Also, DENON tech support told me that all their 2xxx and up series DO
NOT downsample from the digital connections (most players do.)

*What* is downsampled, and from *what* output? Let's consider the usual digital connection: optical or coaxial in terms
of downsampling of formats. CDs? No, they are not downsampled. DVD-V? No, they are not. SACDs? They aren't passed via
typical digital connections at all. DVD-A? Sometimes a downsampled/downmixed two-channel track can be passed via
optical/coax. The downsampling in this case is a copy-protection requirement of the DVD-A makers, not a flaw of the
player. Multichannel DVD-A is not passed that way at all. That leaves the rare 24/96 two-channel 'audio DVD' which may
or may not be downsampled depending on whether the disc is copy-protected. Every one of the players i've owned in the
last half decade (Pioneer, Yamaha, Oppo) *can* pass 96 kHz PCM (sometimes more) via optical/coax. All had the *option*
of limiting the maximum output frequency from the optical/coax digital outs in order to accomodate downstream gear that
has such limits at input (e.g., an AVR that cannot accept 96KHz input)

HDMI 1.2 can pass DSD as PCM downsampled to 88.2 (or some other value). It can (and does) pass DVD-A PCM at full
resolution on my $150 Oppo player. On my HDMI 1.2 Yamaha, PCM signals passed via HDMI that are over 88.2 KHz are
downsampled to 48 or 44.1 khz. It does not output DSD in any form via HDMI.

So you see, asserting 'most players do' ignores many nuances.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Simonel]

That's quite an assumption, given that you've got absolutely nothing
backing it up.

It is true that I haven't proven anything, but nor have I seen any
proof for the theory that all digital stages are equal.

However, when you need to make a purchasing decision, you base it on
whatever information you have. That information is your own experience
and anecdotal experience of others, which suggests (but does not prove)
that for CD's and DVD-A's all digital stages may be equal or not
dramatically different, but when you hook up different DVD players to
DAC's, you get dramatically different results from DVD-V's. These
results cannot be explained by downsampling or "bit transparency"
issues, because a different resolution or a bit lost here or there
would not make the sound of applause, for example, sound like it's
coming out of a 60's tiny portable transistor radio with one DVD
player, and like it's "real" undistorted sound when coming from
another DVD player. It's also not an issue of settings (that has been
covered) or malfunctioning units (unless malfunctioning is epidemic in
DVD players.) This anecdotal "evidence" seems to suggest that the
digital stage for DVD-V's is different than for CD's or DVD-A's
and different players perform dramatically differently.

I only hope that this difference in performance between DVD players is
not on a(n analog) spectrum because that would imply that there can
always be the next better player.

It is baffling to me why it should be so difficult to settle this issue
- we are not talking exotic science here. Elias Gwinn from
Benchmark's experience has been that DVD player manufacturers
themselves don't know how their products are performing. He told me
that they proved to one American DVD manufacturer that their DVD player
did not perform as indicated (IIRC it did not output up to 24/192 when
it was supposed to, but it may have been something else.) The
manufacturers of that brand were reportedly shocked and said they will
have to talk with the chip manufacturer. So these DVD manufacturers buy
parts and assemble them, but what the end product does is shrouded in a
lot of mystery.

Even Stereophile magazine does not measure what DVD players output and
how the digital outputs perform, on the very rare occasion that they
review consumer level DVD players (they reviewed a DENON years ago and
gave it class B), maybe because they don't want to find out that all
digital stages output equally (at least for CD's and DVD-A's.)
[Although to be completely honest, I read 2 reviewers and one letter to
the editor in Stereophile refer briefly to the issue of the advantage
of outputting the digi out of CD/DVD players to an outboard DAC - but
no measurements.]

Simonel

[Simonel]

Harry Lavo wrote:
Let this be fair warning to any others here about to buy into the "buy
cheap, everything sounds the same anyway" school of thought so prevalent
here on RAHE these days.

I now realize, searching the archives, that it was because of your
posts here 3 years ago about the Panasonic S55 that I bought it... :-)
Simonel :-(

[jwvm]

On Jan 11, 6:27 pm, wrote:
snip
I'm curious as to what was the OPs original DVD player, and
whether or not the Denon AND the DAC1 were added at the same time or
not.

CD

Going back to the OPs original posts, it really sounds like there was a
compatibility problem here and that data was not being decoded
properly. The OP noted that the DVDs that he made sounded excellent but
commercial ones sounded poor. This certainly does not mean that his
original DVD player was junk. It would probably work extremely well
with a competent inexpensive receiver.

[Simonel]

Going back to the OPs original posts, it really sounds like there was a
compatibility problem here and that data was not being decoded
properly. The OP noted that the DVDs that he made sounded excellent but
commercial ones sounded poor.

No I wrote:"The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound
superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that." - i.e., all DVD-V's whether commercial or made
with audio-DVD creator sounded inferior.

This certainly does not mean that his
original DVD player was junk. It would probably work extremely well
with a competent inexpensive receiver.

That is actually true - the Panasonic S55 worked fine with a cheap
receiver and later with a cheap integrated amp (Pioneer Elite A-35R)
through the analog outputs. It was only when I hooked up the optical
out to the Benchmark DAC1monoblocks that I noticed that DVD-V's
sounded bad. But that has always been the process of upgrading - if I
have a setup of components A+B+C+D+E and I upgrade component C, it
exposes deficiencies in component E. I upgrade component E and it
exposes deficiencies in component A etc. I hope the process exhausts
itself somewhere. My current setup exposes mercilessly any minor
imperfections in soundtracks, particularly from Indie sources.

Simonel

[Harry Lavo]

"Simonel" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
Let this be fair warning to any others here about to buy into the "buy
cheap, everything sounds the same anyway" school of thought so prevalent
here on RAHE these days.

I now realize, searching the archives, that it was because of your
posts here 3 years ago about the Panasonic S55 that I bought it... :-)
Simonel :-(

Yep...I'm sorry that you had the problems you had....but in fairness, I did
say I was judging the player on its CD and DVD-A merit as an audio
machine....I barely used it for DVD-V's of any kind and paid even less
attention to them. I passed mine to my daughter when I got the 578, and
unfortunately The Panasonic gave up the ghost about six months ago, so I can
not replicate your results.

So, you had a cheap player that on CD and DVD-A rivals your more expensive
and three-year later Denon, but sounds like crap decoding DVD-V of any kind.
There is no free lunch. That is why I don't buy into the "everything sounds
the same" and "cheaper is better" crapola expoused here. I highlighted the
Panny *because* it sounded much better than most of its peers and better
than it had any right to sound at its price point. But in general, up to a
point, more expensive is likely to get you better sound.

[Steven Sullivan]

Simonel wrote:
Going back to the OPs original posts, it really sounds like there was a
compatibility problem here and that data was not being decoded
properly. The OP noted that the DVDs that he made sounded excellent but
commercial ones sounded poor.

No I wrote:"The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound
superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that." - i.e., all DVD-V's whether commercial or made
with audio-DVD creator sounded inferior.

This certainly does not mean that his
original DVD player was junk. It would probably work extremely well
with a competent inexpensive receiver.

That is actually true - the Panasonic S55 worked fine with a cheap
receiver and later with a cheap integrated amp (Pioneer Elite A-35R)
through the analog outputs. It was only when I hooked up the optical
out to the Benchmark DAC1monoblocks that I noticed that DVD-V's
sounded bad.

I'm looking at your old player's (Panasonic S55) user manual, and have some
questions

Ever try DTS soundtracks? Did they sound bad too?

Did you check *every* relevant setting to ensure you are getting proper
output for your setup? Since you are feeding a DAC that can't do decoding
of Dolby Digital/DTS, and listening over a 2.0 system (I think), your
setting should be (see page 20) --

speaker setting : 2-channel (This probably only affects the analog output,
but it's not totally clear in the manual what, if any, effect it has on
digital output, especially if there is a conversion to PCM involved. If
set to 2-channel,DVD-V discs you play must have a 2-channel mix available,
and you must select that mix from the disc menu (if it's not the only
mix), otherwise this setting will downmix the *multichannel* mix and
output it as two-channel.)(If you set this to 'multichannel' instead, be
sure the set all speaker distances the same, set speakers to large, and
adjust the channel balances to be the same from the listening position,
using a Radio Shack or similar sound level meter)

Digital Audio Output : On (otherwise no output from optical or coax
digital jacks)

PCM Down Conversion: OFF (this is for downconverting 96 or 88.2 kHz sample
frequency PCM sources such as DVD-A, to 48 or 44.1 kHz respectively, in
case the downstream gear cannot process those higher sampling rates. The
Benchmark DAC1 can, so if that is what you use, you shouldn't need to
downconvert PCM. However, note that the player will downconvert any signal
with a sampling rate 96 kHz, or and disc with copy protection, regardless
of this setting. This is quite normal, btw.)

Dolby Digital: PCM (converts bitstream to PCM)
)

DTS Digital Surround: PCM (ditto)

Dynamic Range Compression: OFF (this affect Dolby Digital sources only)

these appear to be remote control buttons:

Advanced Surround: SP OFF /HP OFF

Double Remaster: OFF (probably affects analog only)

You could also try turning AUdio Only ON after you've started the disc
and selected a 2-channel audio track. This bypassed video circuitry.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Harry Lavo]

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Simonel wrote:
Going back to the OPs original posts, it really sounds like there was a
compatibility problem here and that data was not being decoded
properly. The OP noted that the DVDs that he made sounded excellent but
commercial ones sounded poor.

No I wrote:"The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound
superb, but the
DVD ones sound like most DVD's on AC3 - shrill, boxy, thin bass,
artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high
resolution at that." - i.e., all DVD-V's whether commercial or made
with audio-DVD creator sounded inferior.

This certainly does not mean that his
original DVD player was junk. It would probably work extremely well
with a competent inexpensive receiver.

That is actually true - the Panasonic S55 worked fine with a cheap
receiver and later with a cheap integrated amp (Pioneer Elite A-35R)
through the analog outputs. It was only when I hooked up the optical
out to the Benchmark DAC1monoblocks that I noticed that DVD-V's
sounded bad.

I'm looking at your old player's (Panasonic S55) user manual, and have
some
questions

Ever try DTS soundtracks? Did they sound bad too?

Did you check *every* relevant setting to ensure you are getting proper
output for your setup? Since you are feeding a DAC that can't do decoding
of Dolby Digital/DTS, and listening over a 2.0 system (I think), your
setting should be (see page 20) --

speaker setting : 2-channel (This probably only affects the analog output,
but it's not totally clear in the manual what, if any, effect it has on
digital output, especially if there is a conversion to PCM involved. If
set to 2-channel,DVD-V discs you play must have a 2-channel mix available,
and you must select that mix from the disc menu (if it's not the only
mix), otherwise this setting will downmix the *multichannel* mix and
output it as two-channel.)(If you set this to 'multichannel' instead, be
sure the set all speaker distances the same, set speakers to large, and
adjust the channel balances to be the same from the listening position,
using a Radio Shack or similar sound level meter)

Digital Audio Output : On (otherwise no output from optical or coax
digital jacks)

PCM Down Conversion: OFF (this is for downconverting 96 or 88.2 kHz sample
frequency PCM sources such as DVD-A, to 48 or 44.1 kHz respectively, in
case the downstream gear cannot process those higher sampling rates. The
Benchmark DAC1 can, so if that is what you use, you shouldn't need to
downconvert PCM. However, note that the player will downconvert any signal
with a sampling rate 96 kHz, or and disc with copy protection, regardless
of this setting. This is quite normal, btw.)

Dolby Digital: PCM (converts bitstream to PCM)
)

DTS Digital Surround: PCM (ditto)

Dynamic Range Compression: OFF (this affect Dolby Digital sources only)

these appear to be remote control buttons:

Advanced Surround: SP OFF /HP OFF

Double Remaster: OFF (probably affects analog only)

You could also try turning AUdio Only ON after you've started the disc
and selected a 2-channel audio track. This bypassed video circuitry.

Steve, you've jogged my memory. Double Remaster is upsampling done twice to
192k, I believe. If it affects the digital out...you are right, he should
probably leave it off and let the Benchmark do the upsampling. It does help
the sound to upconvert, however, so if he was using the analog it should be
turned on.