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#1
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very
interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington |
#2
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message ...
Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington Interesting is right. I like and appreciate all the work she has put into the comparison with her in-depth analysis, but I think there are some flaws in her thinking: 1. She seems to imply that CoolEdit's lack of support for the ability to record 24 bit is CoolEdit's fault. The fault lies with WDM. Case in point: I bought an Echo Mia (not the MiaMIDI). My main attraction to the card , as well as its ability to record 96/24, was the audio drivers. EchoAudio offered Purewave drivers which go a long way towards bypassing the WDM architecture. In fact, Purewave addresses the fact that some applications won't report the ability to record 24 bit even if the card is 24 bit. Purewave bypasses the Kernel mixer as well. So when I record with CoolEdit 2K at 24 bits using the Purewave drivers for my Echo MIA card, I'm getting 24 bits. Also, there's my previous experience with WDM and a Santa Cruz card. The WDM driver reports the Santa Cruz to CoolEdit as a 96/16 capable recording device. I could actually record using the Santa Cruz at 96/16. The Santa Cruz is a 48/16 card. Given those experiences I now always have a tendency to cast a suspicious eye towards WDM. Chances are that her 24 bit issues were with WDM. Even her test was done using the ASIO drivers, bypassing WDM. 2. I wonder about her choice of soundcard. Since she is quite serious about audio judging from her extensive analysis, I find it odd that her tests were based using a Prodigy 7.1. Even if it has 192/24 recording capability, I tend to not look so highly upon just how serious a manufacterer of a soundcard is about audio when they include Dolby surround, SRS, Trusurround, gaming functions, etc. Can we say SoundBlaster? I did a few googles looking for RightMark tests on the Prodigy 7.1 and compared them to the MIA. They seem to confirm my suspicions. Apparently the MIA, at 24/96, outperforms the Prodigy 7.1 at 24/192 in basic S/N ratio and dynamic range. Of course the "lesser" Mia even costs more than the Prodigy. I also found the the MiaMIDI may have suffered due to its addition of MIDI capability when compared to the original Mia. Since the original Mia is no longer available, how about a LYNXTWO, then? CD |
#3
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Codifus" wrote in message
news:uLUpc.63852$xw3.3721414@attbi_s04... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington Interesting is right. I like and appreciate all the work she has put into the comparison with her in-depth analysis, but I think there are some flaws in her thinking: I didn't understand the point about dynamic range. Does anyone claim that SACD has a greater inherent dynamic range than DVDA? Surely this is more a characteristic of the mastering - ie. it could just as easily be the other way around? Tim |
#4
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington I've read the whole thing. (I'm getting too old for this stuff.) The diferences between the different recordings seems to be insignificant in every respect except the chopping of the the low level signals in the SACD. I'm going to guess that the SACD was actually made from one of the other recordings, and it had been processed in some fashion beforehand. IOW, my guess is that all the differences between the recordings are artifacts of the recording process, and have nothing to do with the basic capabilities of same. Norm Strong |
#5
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message ...
Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. CD |
#6
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine
On 5/17/04 6:46 PM, in article rhbqc.107048$Ik.8767238@attbi_s53, "Tim
Anderson" wrote: I didn't understand the point about dynamic range. Does anyone claim that SACD has a greater inherent dynamic range than DVDA? Surely this is more a characteristic of the mastering - ie. it could just as easily be the other way around? Given that the quantization noise is 6dB per bit - if you have 16 bits you get 96dB maximum range - more bits, more *potential* range. IN real life - the mastering will make all the difference in the world! |
#7
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Tim Anderson" wrote in message
news:rhbqc.107048$Ik.8767238@attbi_s53... "Codifus" wrote in message news:uLUpc.63852$xw3.3721414@attbi_s04... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington Interesting is right. I like and appreciate all the work she has put into the comparison with her in-depth analysis, but I think there are some flaws in her thinking: I didn't understand the point about dynamic range. Does anyone claim that SACD has a greater inherent dynamic range than DVDA? Surely this is more a characteristic of the mastering - ie. it could just as easily be the other way around? Tim The observational perception of many is that SACD seems less compressed...that it is easier to hear and perceive the low level microdynamics as even quieter and softer than usual, and then be surprised by a sudden fortissimo that sounds more real/less strained than it usually does on CD. |
#8
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"normanstrong" wrote in message
... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington I've read the whole thing. (I'm getting too old for this stuff.) The diferences between the different recordings seems to be insignificant in every respect except the chopping of the the low level signals in the SACD. I'm going to guess that the SACD was actually made from one of the other recordings, and it had been processed in some fashion beforehand. IOW, my guess is that all the differences between the recordings are artifacts of the recording process, and have nothing to do with the basic capabilities of same. You can guess, but she claims to have researched the issue thoroughly in making the selection of source material, and all three are claimed to come from the same master tape directly into their respective processing. |
#9
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
normanstrong wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington I've read the whole thing. (I'm getting too old for this stuff.) The diferences between the different recordings seems to be insignificant in every respect except the chopping of the the low level signals in the SACD. I'm going to guess that the SACD was actually made from one of the other recordings, and it had been processed in some fashion beforehand. IOW, my guess is that all the differences between the recordings are artifacts of the recording process, and have nothing to do with the basic capabilities of same. Norm Strong I read through the whole thing, too, and it was a waste of time . It appears that Ms. Tham started with a theory that SACD has more dynamic range, or is somehow different, and she subsequently massaged the results in every possible way to fit that theory. The tests were poorly run, the definitions of dynamic range were changed basically to whatever fits her agenda, and still the results were totally inconclusive and could easily be due more to experimental error than anything. This has got to be one of the worst "analyses" I have seen. |
#10
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"chung" wrote in message
news:Speqc.27140$6f5.2630863@attbi_s54... normanstrong wrote: "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington I've read the whole thing. (I'm getting too old for this stuff.) The diferences between the different recordings seems to be insignificant in every respect except the chopping of the the low level signals in the SACD. I'm going to guess that the SACD was actually made from one of the other recordings, and it had been processed in some fashion beforehand. IOW, my guess is that all the differences between the recordings are artifacts of the recording process, and have nothing to do with the basic capabilities of same. Norm Strong I read through the whole thing, too, and it was a waste of time . It appears that Ms. Tham started with a theory that SACD has more dynamic range, or is somehow different, and she subsequently massaged the results in every possible way to fit that theory. The tests were poorly run, the definitions of dynamic range were changed basically to whatever fits her agenda, and still the results were totally inconclusive and could easily be due more to experimental error than anything. This has got to be one of the worst "analyses" I have seen. You are quite wrong. Ms. Tham is if anything these days a DVD-A advocate. And she didn't start with a theory about anything...she started with the idea of doing the most accurate comparison she could using the equipment and knowledge she had. And I think she succeeded to some degree, particularly in doing her follow up work to further level the playing field. |
#11
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Harry Lavo writes:
Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Thanks for the link. The author says of SACD "Notice that there are no samples between -78dB and -62dB!!! ... This is surprising indeed. I have no explanation for this." Well, I do -- that looks like a noise gate. This would contribute to the "silent background" of SACD, right? :-) The histograms also suggest that different dynamics processing has been done on the different formats -- the DVD-A recording looks like it has been compressed slightly more than the CD, not less as the author suggests. To be certain, a standard deviation would be far more useful than than the simple peak/average ratio we're presented with. 'Note that the shape of the [DVD-A] histogram is "narrower" in width around -35dB to -5dB. This indicates that the DVD-A recording is of a higher resolution than CD.' Err, no it doesn't. It would be nice to rip the CD to make sure the clipping really is in the recording and not an artefact of the test setup. Andrew. |
#12
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
On 18 May 2004 01:23:46 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
The observational perception of many is that SACD seems less compressed...that it is easier to hear and perceive the low level microdynamics as even quieter and softer than usual, and then be surprised by a sudden fortissimo that sounds more real/less strained than it usually does on CD. Unfortunately, that makes no sense when you look at the actual capabilities of all three media - *all* of which *far* exceed the dynamic range of *any* known music master tape. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#13
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Codifus" wrote in message
... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. There is no such thing as a DVD-A only player. And the Panasonic line is considered by many, including myself, to be one of the best performing DVD-A players in existence. A $3500 Arcam might or might not show any difference...I doubt it. |
#14
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Codifus wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. Why? Even with this vast price disparity, the differences between the recordings were minimal, within the audible range...and in some regards the DVD-A measured *better*. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#15
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Harry Lavo wrote:
"chung" wrote in message news:Speqc.27140$6f5.2630863@attbi_s54... normanstrong wrote: "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington I've read the whole thing. (I'm getting too old for this stuff.) The diferences between the different recordings seems to be insignificant in every respect except the chopping of the the low level signals in the SACD. I'm going to guess that the SACD was actually made from one of the other recordings, and it had been processed in some fashion beforehand. IOW, my guess is that all the differences between the recordings are artifacts of the recording process, and have nothing to do with the basic capabilities of same. Norm Strong I read through the whole thing, too, and it was a waste of time . It appears that Ms. Tham started with a theory that SACD has more dynamic range, or is somehow different, and she subsequently massaged the results in every possible way to fit that theory. The tests were poorly run, the definitions of dynamic range were changed basically to whatever fits her agenda, and still the results were totally inconclusive and could easily be due more to experimental error than anything. This has got to be one of the worst "analyses" I have seen. You are quite wrong. Ms. Tham is if anything these days a DVD-A advocate. And she didn't start with a theory about anything...she started with the idea of doing the most accurate comparison she could using the equipment and knowledge she had. And I think she succeeded to some degree, particularly in doing her follow up work to further level the playing field. Here is what she wrote in conclusion: "Well, I was hoping merely to confirm that the DSD recording has higher dynamics than the PCM recordings on CD and DVD-A, and I did manage to confirm my previous observation." Looking at her data, I could not see any reason to reach the same conclusion she did. |
#16
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message ...
Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington Well ... have you actually listended to these records? I have Denon DVD-2900 and both records available for testing and the listening results of a number of people have been: 1. DVD-A certainly seems to be louder but the difference is very small (not the 3-4dB as measured by Christine) 2. DVD-A's sound is very relaxed compared to SACD and especially Diana's voice is free from the somewhat compressed chracter of both SACD and CD. 3. It is not possible to tell CD from SACD reliably. There does not seem to be any difference. I wonder why people think SACD is better that DVD-A? The difference is very small ... if any ... but my experience with DVD-A's is better than with SACD's. I just don't belive that both CD and DVD-A could clip. This would be audible for sure. There must be something wrong with Christine's measurement set-up. The same analysis is valid when she did not detect any SACD samples in lower decibel levels, which must also be an error in the measurements. Otti |
#17
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Codifus wrote: "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. Why? Even with this vast price disparity, the differences between the recordings were minimal, within the audible range...and in some regards the DVD-A measured *better*. I've always felt that players on the high end distinguish themselves more from the subtle differences. The differences between DVDA and SACD pointed out in this analysis could be attributed to the better electronics used inside the Sony piece. Probably not, but it's possible. Besides, it simply would not be fair to use the best or nearly the best that SACD has to offer against the very good that DVDA has to offer. Since this Panasonic unit performs very well for such a low price, imagine what Panasonic could do if they made a player costing thousands. Or, use an inexpensive SACD player. CD |
#18
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Codifus" wrote in message ... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. There is no such thing as a DVD-A only player. And the Panasonic line is considered by many, including myself, to be one of the best performing DVD-A players in existence. IIRC, you said that newer, "remastering", upsampling Panasonic players like the S55 were among the very best. The R82 used in Ms. Tham's test is a much older, discontinued player. Or are you now saying that even the older R82 was among the very best DVD-A players made? |
#19
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Tim Anderson" wrote in message news:rhbqc.107048$Ik.8767238@attbi_s53... "Codifus" wrote in message news:uLUpc.63852$xw3.3721414@attbi_s04... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo Interesting is right. I like and appreciate all the work she has put into the comparison with her in-depth analysis, but I think there are some flaws in her thinking: I didn't understand the point about dynamic range. Does anyone claim that SACD has a greater inherent dynamic range than DVDA? Surely this is more a characteristic of the mastering - ie. it could just as easily be the other way around? Tim The observational perception of many is that SACD seems less compressed...that it is easier to hear and perceive the low level microdynamics as even quieter and softer than usual, and then be surprised by a sudden fortissimo that sounds more real/less strained than it usually does on CD. OK, going back to the web-site analysis itself. As best I can tell, the biggest difference that would be audible (Tham's conclusion, too, as many here acknowledge) involves the "dynamics." As I have noted elsewhere, I have problems with this dynamics issue, because I see no reason why any of these consumer-oriented digital systems operated within their dynamic-range capabilities (and even the CD tops 90 dB) would compress these signals. They easily have the ability to deal with even the wildest live-music dynamics as played back in typical home-listening rooms. Heck, the analog masters used to create Ms. Tham's "reference" disc would have dynamic capabilities inferior to any of the three formats she compared. Any of them should have been equally able to deal with the dynamics of the analog source. My guess is that the machines that made the three different discs were very slightly adjusted differently, and even the masters may have been different. The recording engineers may have also diddled with various controls. I am not talking about a conspiracy here, because the differences may have been totally unintentional. On top of this, she also may have made measurement errors, and the various players she used could have skewed the results. Heck, she possibly had her player downmix the DVD-A presentation from 5.1 channels to just two channels. This actually may have compromised any number of attributes. Even if the disc had 2-channel tracks in DVD-A form, the mixing at the production end could have skewed things. Too many wild-card variables in this comparison, even though Ms. Tham had good intentions. There is no reason I can see why the per-channel subjective performance of SACD and DVD-A should be different, or why either should have a per-channel edge over the CD. Yep, they do have more channels, and that is an edge in itself, although that is unrelated to what is being discussed on the web site. I really cannot see, given what she was analyzing, how a per channel subjective edge would mean anything with typical home playback on even excellent systems? Probably not. Indeed, my experience has been that Dolby Digital (at least at 448 kbps) and DTS both can sound as good as DVD-A when the mastering job is done right. I have had numerous chances to do comparisons with duplicate releases, and this has been my experience. As a matter of fact, since DD and DTS processing at the listener end will involve bass management and distance compensation, while SACD and DVD-A often do not (or, more realistically, nearly always do not), the two compressed forms probably will sound better than the super formats. Add in the option of using a center-back feed with DD and DTS (6.1, you guys) and it is likely that at least rock music will sound more exciting than what is possible with the super formats. A center-back feed means little with classical, but in any case DD and DTS still have bass management and distance compensation. That means a lot to those who have standard sub/sat systems set up in typical listening rooms. In any case, most enthusiasts, and most enthusiast systems located in typically good rooms, are not going to be able to reliably pick out differences between these surround technologies. I know this news sticks in the craw of the golden-ear crowd, but I am afraid that all those ears are really fools gold. Yep, most audio buffs overrate their hearing and their audio systems, too. They should learn to live with that reality and stop sweating details. Howard Ferstler |
#20
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"chung" wrote in message
news:lQyqc.114087$Ik.9353802@attbi_s53... Harry Lavo wrote: "Codifus" wrote in message ... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington In my previous post I had some mixed feelings about this analysis. Now I'm just plain upset. Has anyone noticed the audio hardware being used in this comparison? I did. The CD and SACD are being played through a $3000 High end Sony ES piece, whereas the DVD-A is being played through a Panasonic RP82 DVD Videeo/Audio player. Retail price:$229. Not only is the Panasonic unit nearly a 10th of the price of the Sony, but it's a combo unit: it does DVD audio and DVD video. Come on, now. Let's level the playing field a bit. At the very least play the DVD audio through a DVD-A only player. There is no such thing as a DVD-A only player. And the Panasonic line is considered by many, including myself, to be one of the best performing DVD-A players in existence. IIRC, you said that newer, "remastering", upsampling Panasonic players like the S55 were among the very best. The R82 used in Ms. Tham's test is a much older, discontinued player. Or are you now saying that even the older R82 was among the very best DVD-A players made? You raise a valid point that I overlooked about the Panasonic...the 82 series was a year earlier and may not have had the same amps. But it was DVD-A compliant which meant 192/24 converters. |
#22
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Harry Lavo wrote:
" There is no such thing as a DVD-A only player. And the Panasonic line is considered by many, including myself, to be one of the best performing DVD-A players in existence. IIRC, you said that newer, "remastering", upsampling Panasonic players like the S55 were among the very best. The R82 used in Ms. Tham's test is a much older, discontinued player. Or are you now saying that even the older R82 was among the very best DVD-A players made? You raise a valid point that I overlooked about the Panasonic...the 82 series was a year earlier and may not have had the same amps. But it was DVD-A compliant which meant 192/24 converters. So are you now saying that all DVD-A compliant players with 192/24 DAC's will sound like those best performing players in existence? |
#23
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Howard Ferstler wrote:
As a matter of fact, since DD and DTS processing at the listener end will involve bass management and distance compensation, while SACD and DVD-A often do not (or, more realistically, nearly always do not), I think this is no longer true. The low-end Pioneer universal players (the old DV-565A and the new DV-575, about 250 euros on online shops, the equivalent model in the USA market seems to be the 563A) have bass management and distance compensation. So, there is no good reason to still buy models without those features. Of course, there is the problem of the installed base... Add in the option of using a center-back feed with DD and DTS (6.1, you guys) I suspect you can have that in DVD-Audio or SACD, but you will need the DVD player and the receiver to have i.LINK (firewire), and those players and receivers are still very expensive. I hope that in one or two generations i.LINK gets to the middle-priced receivers and players. -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
#24
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
chung wrote:
wrote: "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... Christine Tham has done a follow up analysis to her prior one. Also very interesting. http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part2.html Harry Lavo "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington Well ... have you actually listended to these records? I have Denon DVD-2900 and both records available for testing and the listening results of a number of people have been: 1. DVD-A certainly seems to be louder but the difference is very small (not the 3-4dB as measured by Christine) 2. DVD-A's sound is very relaxed compared to SACD and especially Diana's voice is free from the somewhat compressed chracter of both SACD and CD. 3. It is not possible to tell CD from SACD reliably. There does not seem to be any difference. I wonder why people think SACD is better that DVD-A? The difference is very small ... if any ... but my experience with DVD-A's is better than with SACD's. I just don't belive that both CD and DVD-A could clip. Any medium can clip if the mastering engineering allows it. If, in fact, there was clipping in the CD or DVD-A versions, as Ms. Tham appeared to speculate, then it is simply done at the mastering stage. Meaning those two were mastered differently than the SACD version. Meaning further , that any claims about the formats themselves, derived from these data, would be unwarranted. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro wrote:
Howard Ferstler wrote: As a matter of fact, since DD and DTS processing at the listener end will involve bass management and distance compensation, while SACD and DVD-A often do not (or, more realistically, nearly always do not), I think this is no longer true. The low-end Pioneer universal players (the old DV-565A and the new DV-575, about 250 euros on online shops, the equivalent model in the USA market seems to be the 563A) have bass management and distance compensation. So, there is no good reason to still buy models without those features. Of course, there is the problem of the installed base... I stand fast. I said "nearly always," and you countered by mentioning two players. Most SACD and DVD-A players do not, and even some that do are not all that good with the bass management that they do have, particularly with SACD. And even those that have bass management usually do not have distance compensation. Howard Ferstler |
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
I just don't belive that both CD and DVD-A could clip. Any medium can clip if the mastering engineering allows it. If, in fact, there was clipping in the CD or DVD-A versions, as Ms. Tham appeared to speculate, then it is simply done at the mastering stage. Meaning those two were mastered differently than the SACD version. Yes, that's right but I ripped the CD part to my hard disk and checked the data. No clipping could be detected so the engineering is OK. Further, I believe that the records were made from exactly the same analog master. The Burr Brown DAC in Denon 2900 may generate slightly different output levels for CD, SACD and DVD-A and DVD-A seems to play loudest. Otti |
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
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CD vs DVD-A vs SACD - Followup Up Analysis (by Christine Tham)
"Howard Ferstler" skrev i melding
news:npcrc.88000$iF6.7546077@attbi_s02... Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro wrote: I think this is no longer true. The low-end Pioneer universal players (the old DV-565A and the new DV-575, about 250 euros on online shops, the equivalent model in the USA market seems to be the 563A) have bass management and distance compensation. So, there is no good reason to still buy models without those features. Of course, there is the problem of the installed base... I stand fast. I said "nearly always," and you countered by mentioning two players. Most SACD and DVD-A players do not, and even some that do are not all that good with the bass management that they do have, particularly with SACD. And even those that have bass management usually do not have distance compensation. The slopes and x-over points might change between DD/DTS, DVD-A and SACD playback on the same player. And is genereally substandard to the bass management found in home theater amplifiers, the x-over point is commonly found in between 100 and 120 Hz which is too high. The slopes is usually -6 and -12 dB during SACD playback on all gear which uses the SACD decoder chip from Sony. Espen Braathen |
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