Hello

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Thnx

V

"Victor Martell" wrote

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?


It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?

"Tom" wrote in message
...
"Victor Martell" wrote

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe
is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?


It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?

Not for post-betting.

Certainly - Just missed that info. However, it could be fun to follow
the thing in real time and comment as it goes, including audience
reaction and debaters' expression, body language, etc.

V

Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?



http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!



ROTF

"EddieM" wrote in message

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!

I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference is
not only detectable, it is staggering.

I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
summary.

Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
audio will more than suffice.

ScottW

On 29 Apr 2005 23:36:32 -0700, "ScottW" wrote:

I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
summary.

Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
audio will more than suffice.

ScottW

"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".

I don't know if Mr. Rachlin has mischaracterized Arnold's rebuttal,
but this is a similar point to the one that says that by inducing a
highly unnatural and artificial comparison between very small musical
snippets, such as occurs in PCABX protocol, you have "altered" the
conciousness of the listener and have made it difficult to evaluate
the difference between components.

IOW, the mindset (read conciousness) of the listener is far different
than it would be if one were listening to systems in a manner more
similar to the actual listening that one does when listening for
enjoyment.

Also, there's the additional stress of the test itself, trying to find
differences in such small snatches of musical content. No, it's not
white-knuckle stress of being held up at gunpoint like Mr. Ferstler
likes to think that I'm saying, but it's stress nonetheless, and far
more stress than a test that progesses in a more natural fashion.

Any test is, by its very nature, going to alter the conciousness of
the listener, so his point is really pretty meaningless, because it's
true for all cases of testing.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".


Lordy! And he won't concede that listening in the ABX environment
changes the conscious state of the listener.

Basically, he is saying that the human emotional sate is merely
another variable to be eliminated in evaluating a system.

BORG ALERT!!!



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"Schizoid Man" wrote in message
...

"EddieM" wrote in message

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!

I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference
is not only detectable, it is staggering.


It is known as absolute polarity, it is the inversion of pahase of both
chanels simultaneously.

It is not always noticable to me, it tends to be more noticable
on cd's and on acoustic or vocal redordings.

Sometimes, a cd has the wrong absolute polarity, nad inverting it
during playback improvess the sound.

Two cd's I remember with inversions are my copy of
Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat" and the classic RCA,
"The Reiner Sound.". My lp versions are not inverted.
My Reiner lp is not original, it is a Clasic Records reissue




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EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

Do you expect us to take your word about somebody else's boorishness?
That's like asking Ferstler to rate people's modesty.

George M. Middius wrote:
****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
I was going to do this debate?

The Big **** stinks up the joint.

****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
I was going to do this debate?

I'm surprised you showed up, but even more surprised you didn't bring a
bag of turds to throw around.

Were you humiliated often? Did anybody try to put money in your cup?

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still have sphincters loosening, eh George ?






----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

So according to this writeup.... you folded. Completely different
Kreuger than on RAO showed up. Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that? Sounds
like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by your metal
(sic) state of mind.

ScottW

ScottW wrote:

So according to this writeup.... you folded.

Still can't read, eh scooter?

Completely different Kreuger than on RAO showed up.

Since my name isn't Kreuger, you have to be talking about a different
guy.

Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that?


I'd explain it to you if I thought you could understand an idea that
complex.

Sounds like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by
your metal (sic) state of mind.

Post again when you learn to read and spell, Scooter.

First Howard reveals the magic surround, now you have a metal state of
mind with a concept of audio hygiene. Should I even bother watching
the video when it comes out?
Did you make a legit point or did you spin away your time in semantics
like a reviewer for Stereophile?

That's it! Arny showed up looking for a job. The suit gave it away.
Guess the house remodel is costing a bit more than planned.
Since Howie announced his impending retirement... you may find a job
yet.

ScottW

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read it
last night



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Clyde Slick wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
read
it last night.

Prove it.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
read
it last night.

Prove it.

It did, actually.

You know the debate didn't go well because the Kroo is in full "debating
trade" stride immediately afterward.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read
it last night.

Prove it.

Stop whining, Arnii. Rochy fixed a spelling error in the original URL
(your name). You frequently use typos to score your "debating trade"
points. Here's a case of somebody fixing a typo, and you, in response,
denying the existence of something we can all see plainly. Does your
"debating trade" rulebook give you that kind of flexibility, or are you
just being a ****?

Arny Krueger wrote
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.


It worked last night.


Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(




I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about? How did you prepared in as far as flexing
some muscles for this Debate? What was your opponent's
greatest strength?

Well, did you had fun yesterday? How's the food?
Did you met any luminaries? Which one did you find
interesting the most?

EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
him I know not.

Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.

My thanks, Arny, for your graciousness in agreeing to proceed with
the debate without being able to give your PowerPoint presentation.

I hope to have the recording available for streaming on our website
some time next week.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message

EddieM wrote:

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.

Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?

In article , "John
Atkinson" wrote:

That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.

This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It wasn't necessary
to pay equal respect to the audience, for they didn't come to hear
nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger. And your lack of proper
preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the debate made the effort clearly
biased by Stereophile. Any competent engineer tests his gear in situ before
a big gig. Your failures in this regard are frankly inexcusable.

John Atkinson wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
him I know not.

Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.

I didn't come a thousand miles to have my time wasted in great volume
by idiots like Harry Lavo.

EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote

EddieM wrote:

Victor Martell wrote

Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

It worked last night.

So you say.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon

declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.

As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.

Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.

Stuff happens.

The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.

My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.

I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.

Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.

How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.

If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.

What was your opponent's greatest strength?

Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.

Well, did you had fun yesterday?

I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

How's the food?

Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

Did you met any luminaries?

I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

Which one did you find the most interesting?

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

"Arny Krueger" wrote

.....There's a reason why almost every SET demo I heard
was based on a recording of a solo or a very small group......

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

"listen to gear" ???

If they like that kind of music played on that kind of gear, what's
the harm? Maybe that kind of distortion has some kind of
calming psychological effect.


A companion from the BAS...

Boston Audio Society? Malesweski?


Anyway, thanks for the story. We look forward to the video.

"Arny Krueger" said:

snip

Stuff happens.


Well, kudos anyway for showing up.
Too bad about the PP presentation.
Any chance that it'll become available somewhere?

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

In article ,
says...


Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

This is all I've seen of the debate other than the posts to this
thread. If there will be audio or video posted to this site, that
would be nice.

John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in the
text. Obviously the name tag in the photo can't be changed, so I
suggest you crop the photo to leave it out and add captions to the
pics.

My views on the announced topic of the debate have been posted to my
web page for years and are generally in line with Arny's. Those views
aren't modified in any way by what I've read in this thread or on the
above web page.

Nor are my views changed in any way by the way Arny and a number of
other posters choose to behave at times in this newsgroup. For
example, Arny recently replied to a post of mine pointing out that he's
a major contributor to this newsgroup despite his distain for the group
because he likes to annoy other posters.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../3985e2253d970
b59?dmode=source&hl=en

or

http://tinyurl.com/7eysu

John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
method, but on your opinion/feelings. Not that there's anything wrong
with that, if that's what you want to do and it makes you happy. I
choose to rely on more scientific methods to decern _real_ differences
in equipment. And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
aren't important, even if they exist.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote

EddieM wrote:

Victor Martell wrote

Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

It worked last night.

So you say.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon

declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.

As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.

Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.

Stuff happens.

The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.

My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.

I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.

Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.

How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.

If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.

What was your opponent's greatest strength?

Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.

Well, did you had fun yesterday?

I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

How's the food?

Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

Did you met any luminaries?

I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

Which one did you find the most interesting?

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.




Dear Arny,

First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of yours
demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when you're
behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people. During your
appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was suffering from
painful hemorroids. I realize you were in a hostile territory but your
bravado here set certain expectations that you totally failed to fulfill. It
IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but it is not okay to brag to be
something else when you fail in the spotlight . :-)

At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to display
appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.

However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a self-absorbed
babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many of the rooms sounded
quite mediocre given the price of the systems - makes you wonder why people
buy some of that stuff. And the Bösendorfer speakers' failure to perform was
sadly comparable to yours.

Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John Atkinson
accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot does not take his
own laptop and a projector with him under those circumstances? DUH! Just in
case you have fallen off the tech wagon, :-) I have a powerful traveling
setup that weighs less than 10 lbs and it goes everywhere I go on business.
You get no pity points from me for that. It just shows that you're a shoddy
amateur.

On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked very
nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open shirt. Maybe
you should ask John Atkinson. :-)

Cheers,

Margaret

Arny Krueger wrote
EddieM wrote:



How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.



Thanks for your reply Mr. Krueger. Just as every audiophiles accross
audio newsgroups, I shall look forward to the recorded event of the
Debate on-line courtesy of the Stereophile organization.

Good thing this time, we won't have to be concern with unintentional
misspellings.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote

EddieM wrote:

Victor Martell wrote

Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

It worked last night.

So you say.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon

declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.


Is THAT what happened, Mr. Deer-in-the-Headlights? :-) :-) :-)

In fact Atkinson had you in his crosshairs most of the time but being either
a merciful or timid hunter did not pull the trigger, Mr. Deer.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church

WOW! I did not know you had a managerial background. Be sure to include it
in your resume.

- that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.


Organizing the Stereophile show is certainly nothing compared to that.
Verrry impressive!

As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.


I wondered what that was in Nousiaine's pants. I thought maybe he was just
happy to be with you. LOL!

Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.


I agree. Atkinson should have clearly employed your extensive management
talent to pull off the show.

Stuff happens.

The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.


Too bad it wasn't apparent to the audience. Unless it was your "scared
ostrich" technique. You still have sand in your ears?

My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.

I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.


You blended in that context exceedingly well, I might add.

Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.


I'm sure AV is a piece of cake compared to managing MULTIPLE projectors at a
church.

How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.


Maybe they had happy childhoods. At least they seemed like a happy group
with no chronic bitterness in them.

If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.


Look in the mirror to find why your listening technology has failed. Even
better, listen to the recording.

What was your opponent's greatest strength?

Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.


In that case it is pretty sad that Atkinson handily outperformed you. You
never even got off the starting blocks, Mr. Projector Executive.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.


You could use some of Fremer's qualities, you know. I know it IS sad.

Well, did you had fun yesterday?

I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.


I'm glad it felt like home! BTW, you strongly contributed to the above
climate.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap.

I'm sure they would have appreciated your church projector executive
experience. :-)

But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

How's the food?

Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

Did you met any luminaries?

I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

Which one did you find the most interesting?

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.


I'm glad you enjoyed your trip so much. Next time don't forget to take the
cross on your back.

Good night, Jesus!

Margaret

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

That's the sad reality. Unlike cars and computers, audio and
music maybe has a major change once every decade. The times
imbetween are glacially slow and dull. Add a channel here,
try some different crossover there(which someone already probably
tried a decade before, and a decade before, and...). The last time
I went to NAAM, it was simmilar, though the sales people there were
all top-notch and notivated. Lots of crap with a few gems here and
there.(like the new Mason & Hamlin pianos - finally as good again
as the ones that made them famous nearly a centruy ago.)

Also, the audio areas at NAAM probably had half of the same
makers there as at your show - and 90% of it sounded dreadful,
considering the price.

Arny Krueger wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote

EddieM wrote:

Victor Martell wrote

Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

It worked last night.

So you say.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon


declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that
Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.


I suppose we will see who needed what when we finally get the actual
recording of the debate for ourselves.



I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?

Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.


Was there no working projector? Seems to me that it wouldn't have been
*that* difficult to find a video cable in that beuilding at that time.
What heppened? Did you not get there ahead of time?




As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.


Considering how many cables must have been in the building at that time
I find it hard to believe that this was a stumbling block.




Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology.


Was there a working projector?



He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute.



No surprise there. Those shows are a lot of work. There is never enough
time to do things the way you want to do them. It's the nature of the
beast. Why didn't you just bring everything you needed?



He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.

Stuff happens.


That's a fact.






The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected.



Why didn't you bring your own laptop and cables if it weren't
unexpected? If there were no working projector that's one thing but the
rest is pretty easy to bring yourself.



I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.



Seems to me a better plan B would have been to BYO as much as possible.





My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.



I think a better plan B would have been your laptop and your cables in
your hands a substantial amount of time before you were to begin. Just
my opinion.




I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology.



Really? *That* disappointed you? Interesting. For me the fact that one
can find the actual equipment and the actual designers of the equipment
in person is one of the major draws for a show like this one. What
better presentation is there than in the flesh presence?



So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.



Live demos of actual equipment with the actual designers there to talk
about it? I just don't see that as backwards. Besides, it really is up
to the people buying the space to make the most of their presentations.






Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right
out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.



Hmmm. This makes me wonder if this was your first audio show. You seem
to think the presentations at such a show are an accurate reflection of
the quality of the equipment being presented. You seem to think you can
even get a fair evaluation of individual components such as amps in
this envirement. I'm curious, you make some pretty strong comments on
SETs here. How do you know your impressions were a reflection of SETs
and not a reflection of your expectations? I cannot think of a much
less controled envirement than a show. You can hardly ever actually sit
down in the sweet spot and listen carefully to anything without someone
talking or walking or standing in front of you. It simply isn't an
envirement suitable for meaningful critical listening. I think it is
rather naive to draw any negetive conclusions about any particular
components based on a show experience. I wonder how many SETs you
actually managed to listen to from the propper listening position
without any interuption or distraction? I wonder how someone who takes
issue with subjective reviews due to the effects of bias can possibly
make such comments about the sound of SETs based on impressions from a
show?




How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.


Really? Seems one would remain focused and ready for a meaningful
rebuttal. Oh well.




If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of
today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.

What was your opponent's greatest strength?

Atkinson demonstrated no strengths.


Well we will see for ourselves when the debate becomes available. If
that were the case though, why no victory dance? You didn't destroy an
unprepared opponent in a debate? Well, we'll see and judge for
ourselves.


He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical
examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.

Well, did you had fun yesterday?

I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that
can't
be it.



That's kind of an ugly thing to say. You know some of us had freinds
that died in 9/11.




The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?



I don't think you can say that without more experience with these kinds
of shows. If you were surprised that the majority of the sound was
disappointing then you must be rather green when it comes to shows like
this and rather naive about the dhallenges one faces with getting good
sound out of a hotel room. Good sounding exhibits have always been the
exception rather than the rule and one simply cannot expect to have the
oppurtunity to listen to any given setup the way it is meant to be
heard with people in and out of the rooms. It's not a fiar envirement.
It's like saying sports cars really don't perform as claimed based on a
test drive in rush hour traffic.




How's the food?

Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

Did you met any luminaries?

I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few
people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

Which one did you find the most interesting?

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.


I am surprised you don't understand the issues involved in the sound
one finds at these kinds of events.




I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end
audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I
figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.







Scott Wheeler

Arny Krueger wrote:

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

These are reasons why I consider such shows to be a waste of
time for enthusiasts, and even for journalists who want to
get as much out of life as possible. The shows (particularly
those that cater to high enders) are mainly ways for sales
people to line up deals and glad hand.

Howard Ferstler

Arny Krueger wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


The first link WAS correct though it was MY FAULT as i, in an honest
error, misspelt Arnie's last name. So i made the appropriate
corrections that were needed in the original file. Please accept my
apology for the error on my part.


The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon

declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

Agreed his question was VERY long-winded. The photo was taken at the
very beginning of the debate (i was the person in the red shirt in the
front row just in front of you).

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

wrote:

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108 minute, more or less,
marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

Agreed his question was VERY long-winded.

It was no question at all. It did save John from having to deal with
tough stuff.

There's an obvious inherent problem when the moderator is one of the
protaganists.

The photo was taken at the very beginning of the debate (i was the
person in the red shirt in the
front row just in front of you).

OK, that must have been when I was absorbing the deep-sixing of my
presentation.