wrote in message
oups.com...

Lionel wrote:
In , Clyde Slick wrote :

snipped

Perhaps I am Francophobic, rather than Xenophobic

I've already told you that several time. You are "Francophobic" in
the same
way the nazis were anti-semitic. No difference.


You are exactly right, Lionel, but ol' Sackman doesn't "get it". :-(


I don't want to exterminate them, I just don't appreciate
their arrogant behavior. I don't have to like everybody.
Lots of French don't like Americans, lots of Americans don't
like French. Live with it.



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wrote in message
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Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
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Let's hope ol' Sackman gets exactly what he *deserves* when he goes
through CDG. ;-)

I think that it is far more appropriate to let Sackman live, and be
forced
to continue in the pathetic existence in which he daily muddles and
fails.



I meant that since Sackman *expects* to be treated rudely in France,
it's likely that he behaves in a way that engenders just such
treatment. So, to be treated rudely is what he *deserves*.


The old 'expectation effects'. Maybe if I walk around blindfolded....
I don't do anything to engender rude reactions. And I observe
such behavior directed at many others.



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wrote in message
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Clyde Slick wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Let's hope ol' Sackman gets exactly what he *deserves* when he goes
through CDG. ;-)


yes, a 5 euro samll bottle of water, no doubt, and I will have to
carefully
count my change. You wouldn't fare any better , of course.



Wow! Vendors price gouge at airports! How peculiarly French that is!
That would *never happen* in US airports, would it?


Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.



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Clyde Slick a écrit :

I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!

Clyde Slick a écrit :
wrote in message
oups.com...

Lionel wrote:

In , Clyde Slick wrote :


snipped

Perhaps I am Francophobic, rather than Xenophobic

I've already told you that several time. You are "Francophobic" in

the same

way the nazis were anti-semitic. No difference.



You are exactly right, Lionel, but ol' Sackman doesn't "get it". :-(



I don't want to exterminate them, I just don't appreciate
their arrogant behavior.

Speaking of behavior, Art "Idiot" Sackman improved his.

Recently he was writing that French are "disgusting" this
assertion was based on imprecise rumors without any relation
to a personal experience... In a the same way that in the
'40s the nazi "race-ologists" were writing "the Jews stink".

I don't have to like everybody.
Lots of French don't like Americans, lots of Americans don't
like French. Live with it.

Nobody is obliged to like Sackman or Richman but it is funny
to see how quickly your are qualified of *anti-semitic* if
you take the risk to write that...

Nothing strange, it's NORMAL, eh Sackman ?

Clyde Slick a écrit :
wrote in message
oups.com...

Clyde Slick wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...

Let's hope ol' Sackman gets exactly what he *deserves* when he goes
through CDG. ;-)


yes, a 5 euro samll bottle of water, no doubt, and I will have to

carefully

count my change. You wouldn't fare any better , of course.



Wow! Vendors price gouge at airports! How peculiarly French that is!
That would *never happen* in US airports, would it?



Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.

You are a liar who likes to propagate his xenophobic
theories. For me there's no difference compare to other past
and present racist and xenophobic proselytism.

You are an extremist larva which just waiting for a leader
to begin its metamorphose.
If you was Muslim instead Jewish you would be a Bin Laden
supporter.

Xenophobic, misanthrope, hypocrit, idiot, lack of
personality... you cumulate the qualities, Sackman.

Tom a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote

Is it an American trait to evaluate someone considering his profession ?


Don't you do it?

No.

In Richie's case, it's turnabout.


I'm not really surprised. Perhaps it's also time you leave
to take care of your surf.

I will leave to take care of my surf. This will be next month.
Windsurfing is very big in Europe. Do you know it?

I have tried one time to put my feet on one of these machines...
Its vengeance has been terrible.


NOTHING is more fun than going 35 knots on a surfboard in
rough water. Or full speed straight into a wave.

You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard
ascencion at a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch
the panorama you feel like the king of the world.

In article , "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George M. Middius wrote:

MINe 109 said:

The lunch counter features beer on tap and you pull your own pint.
Probably less then 5 Euro.

Wow! Do they give you your own cup and wave you to the bar?

No, the tap faces the checkout line, like a soda fountain. It annoys the
workers, because people like me pour foam in the glass instead of
waiting for the beer to run clear, thus requiring assistance.

Outbound, there is no lunch counter in the terminal. Anyway, its about 7 AM
when I am there. Inbound, I didn't see any beer tap. "At least" there is
free wine on the plane.

You probably go to Terminal 1, although there should be all kinds of
food there.

The beer tap was in Terminal 2, but that was 7 years and a building
collapse ago.

Stephen

Clyde Slick said:

Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.

Last time I was at BWI, a bottle of beer was $6. Fortunately, my traveling
companion had a company card, but we still only had two each.

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
wrote in message
oups.com...

Clyde Slick wrote:

wrote in message
legroups.com...

Let's hope ol' Sackman gets exactly what he *deserves* when he goes
through CDG. ;-)


yes, a 5 euro samll bottle of water, no doubt, and I will have to

carefully

count my change. You wouldn't fare any better , of course.



Wow! Vendors price gouge at airports! How peculiarly French that is!
That would *never happen* in US airports, would it?



Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.

If you was Muslim instead Jewish you would be a Bin Laden supporter.


No, I happen to like the Eiffel Tower.



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"Lionel" wrote in message
...


You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama you
feel like the king of the world.


Compared to the sewers, it must be quite a high.



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"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article , "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George M. Middius wrote:

MINe 109 said:

The lunch counter features beer on tap and you pull your own pint.
Probably less then 5 Euro.

Wow! Do they give you your own cup and wave you to the bar?

No, the tap faces the checkout line, like a soda fountain. It annoys
the
workers, because people like me pour foam in the glass instead of
waiting for the beer to run clear, thus requiring assistance.

Outbound, there is no lunch counter in the terminal. Anyway, its about 7
AM
when I am there. Inbound, I didn't see any beer tap. "At least" there is
free wine on the plane.

You probably go to Terminal 1, although there should be all kinds of
food there.

The beer tap was in Terminal 2, but that was 7 years and a building
collapse ago.

I go through 2F and one of the other 2 terminals



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"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Clyde Slick said:

Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.

Last time I was at BWI, a bottle of beer was $6. Fortunately, my traveling
companion had a company card, but we still only had two each.


"At least" you get to see a ragged out, drugged up
nude dancer at the Block for a $6 beer.

next week, I'll check the bottled water prices at Dulles
and compare them to 5 Euros, about $7. I predict
the Dulles price will be about $3



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In article , "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article , "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George M. Middius wrote:

MINe 109 said:

The lunch counter features beer on tap and you pull your own pint.
Probably less then 5 Euro.

Wow! Do they give you your own cup and wave you to the bar?

No, the tap faces the checkout line, like a soda fountain. It annoys
the workers, because people like me pour foam in the glass instead of
waiting for the beer to run clear, thus requiring assistance.

Outbound, there is no lunch counter in the terminal. Anyway, its about 7
AM
when I am there. Inbound, I didn't see any beer tap. "At least" there is
free wine on the plane.

You probably go to Terminal 1, although there should be all kinds of
food there.

The beer tap was in Terminal 2, but that was 7 years and a building
collapse ago.

I go through 2F and one of the other 2 terminals

I think I was in 2D or 2C. Besides beer, another highlight of my airport
experience was seeing a Porsche Boxster before they were available in
the US (and before they were ubiquitous in Austin).

Stephen

Lionel wrote:
Clyde Slick a =E9crit :


snipped


I don't have to like everybody.
Lots of French don't like Americans, lots of Americans don't
like French. Live with it.

Nobody is obliged to like Sackman or Richman but it is funny
to see how quickly your are qualified of *anti-semitic* if
you take the risk to write that...


How true. :-(


Nothing strange, it's NORMAL, eh Sackman ?


The "Normals" are a group of wackos, eh? Not surprising, seeing that
"Middius" coined the term (in this RAO context).

Lonely, small-time wackos follow bigger, louder wackos.....

Lionel wrote:
Clyde Slick a =E9crit :

I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!


Once again, ol' Sackman just doesn't "get it". :-(


Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week, try being
friendly and cheerful. Try a smile. Keep in mind that price gouging is
SOP at airports the world over (captive audience and all that) and
don't let the prices make you crabby. Chances are, some of those "rude"
French will return your smile. ;-)

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...


You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama you
feel like the king of the world.



Compared to the sewers, it must be quite a high.

This is an altitude that you cannot reach...
Even if *you* take a plane.

:-D

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Clyde Slick said:


Not to that extent. I have been through lots of airports.

Last time I was at BWI, a bottle of beer was $6. Fortunately, my traveling
companion had a company card, but we still only had two each.



"At least" you get to see a ragged out, drugged up
nude dancer at the Block for a $6 beer.

next week, I'll check the bottled water prices at Dulles
and compare them to 5 Euros, about $7.

It's because you have purchased a bottle of blessed water
from Lourdes instead mineral water.

Usually people doesn't drink it. ;-)

Clyde Slick a écrit :

No, I happen to like the Eiffel Tower.

LOL, I am not surprised.
This avowal of bad taste perfectly fits your character.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Lionel wrote:
Clyde Slick a écrit :

I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!


Once again, ol' Sackman just doesn't "get it". :-(


Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week, try being
friendly and cheerful. Try a smile. Keep in mind that price gouging is
SOP at airports the world over (captive audience and all that) and
don't let the prices make you crabby. Chances are, some of those "rude"
French will return your smile. ;-)
------
I always smile, even at CDG. The French are rude, nevertheless.
Airport price gouging is at its worst at CDG. And the airport does not
nearly have as many nice amenities and features, as compared to
Heathrow or Amsterdam, for example.

I fly Air France (yes, I am not boycotting!) because of price,
schedule, and it is hooked up to my
Delta frequent flier plan. As far as my opinion of Air France,
it is competent, the planes are well maintained, not the most
friendly attendants, but very professional, and I feel safe.
I give better grades to British Airways, Lufthansa and Tarom.
KLM is about as good as Air France. But there is nothing excesively
wrong with either.

The staff at CDG is not so professional as the staff at Air France.
I am talking about security, sales, and bus dispatchers (they are
the most rude of the lot).





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"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...


You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama
you feel like the king of the world.



Compared to the sewers, it must be quite a high.

This is an altitude that you cannot reach...
Even if *you* take a plane.

:-D

There are other avenues, such as playing music, and meditation.
In your case, yes, a good part of the high is
the exhilaration after the effort, but some of
it is also the rarified air.



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"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :

next week, I'll check the bottled water prices at Dulles
and compare them to 5 Euros, about $7.

It's because you have purchased a bottle of blessed water from Lourdes
instead mineral water.

Usually people doesn't drink it. ;-)

Certainly, the French don't bathe in it.



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"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :

No, I happen to like the Eiffel Tower.

LOL, I am not surprised.
This avowal of bad taste perfectly fits your character.


It is a symbol of the design of its era, certainly historic, and I would
never want to see it fall.



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"MINe 109" wrote in message
...


I think I was in 2D or 2C. Besides beer, another highlight of my airport
experience was seeing a Porsche Boxster before they were available in
the US (and before they were ubiquitous in Austin).


BTW, during our dispute with France on the run up to the Iraq
war, I was never so stupid as to pour my Lynch-Bages down the drain.



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Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick a écrit :

next week, I'll check the bottled water prices at Dulles
and compare them to 5 Euros, about $7.

It's because you have purchased a bottle of blessed water from Lourdes
instead mineral water.

Usually people doesn't drink it. ;-)


Certainly, the French don't bathe in it.

And once again you are wrong...
Your ignorance only equals your stupidity, Sackman.

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick a écrit :


No, I happen to like the Eiffel Tower.

LOL, I am not surprised.
This avowal of bad taste perfectly fits your character.



It is a symbol of the design of its era, certainly historic, and I would
never want to see it fall.

Don't worry you will always have it in the ass.

:-D

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick a écrit :

"Lionel" wrote in message
.. .



You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama
you feel like the king of the world.



Compared to the sewers, it must be quite a high.

This is an altitude that you cannot reach...
Even if *you* take a plane.

:-D


There are other avenues, such as playing music, and meditation.

Gag !

In your case, yes, a good part of the high is
the exhilaration after the effort, but some of
it is also the rarified air.

Moreover when this rarified air is full of the absence of
moron like you.

Clyde Slick a écrit :
wrote in message
oups.com...
Lionel wrote:

Clyde Slick a écrit :


I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!



Once again, ol' Sackman just doesn't "get it". :-(


Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week, try being
friendly and cheerful. Try a smile. Keep in mind that price gouging is
SOP at airports the world over (captive audience and all that) and
don't let the prices make you crabby. Chances are, some of those "rude"
French will return your smile. ;-)
------
I always smile, even at CDG. The French are rude, nevertheless.
Airport price gouging is at its worst at CDG. And the airport does not
nearly have as many nice amenities and features, as compared to
Heathrow or Amsterdam, for example.

I fly Air France (yes, I am not boycotting!) because of price,
schedule, and it is hooked up to my
Delta frequent flier plan. As far as my opinion of Air France,
it is competent, the planes are well maintained, not the most
friendly attendants, but very professional, and I feel safe.
I give better grades to British Airways, Lufthansa and Tarom.
KLM is about as good as Air France. But there is nothing excesively
wrong with either.

The staff at CDG is not so professional as the staff at Air France.
I am talking about security, sales, and bus dispatchers (they are
the most rude of the lot).

And what are you demonstrating, eh Sackman ?
Just that you are enough stupid to *regularly* pay 5 Euros
for a small bottle of mineral water in CDG airport.

You are not demostrating that Frenchs are rude but just that
Art Sackman is an idiot !

:-D

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
wrote in message
oups.com...
Lionel wrote:

Clyde Slick a écrit :


I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!



Once again, ol' Sackman just doesn't "get it". :-(


Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week, try being
friendly and cheerful. Try a smile. Keep in mind that price gouging is
SOP at airports the world over (captive audience and all that) and
don't let the prices make you crabby. Chances are, some of those "rude"
French will return your smile. ;-)
------
I always smile, even at CDG. The French are rude, nevertheless.
Airport price gouging is at its worst at CDG. And the airport does not
nearly have as many nice amenities and features, as compared to
Heathrow or Amsterdam, for example.

I fly Air France (yes, I am not boycotting!) because of price,
schedule, and it is hooked up to my
Delta frequent flier plan. As far as my opinion of Air France,
it is competent, the planes are well maintained, not the most
friendly attendants, but very professional, and I feel safe.
I give better grades to British Airways, Lufthansa and Tarom.
KLM is about as good as Air France. But there is nothing excesively
wrong with either.

The staff at CDG is not so professional as the staff at Air France.
I am talking about security, sales, and bus dispatchers (they are
the most rude of the lot).

And what are you demonstrating, eh Sackman ?
Just that you are enough stupid to *regularly* pay 5 Euros for a small
bottle of mineral water in CDG airport.


You are an idiot. You think I go there every day, just to buy water!



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Ozark Audio wrote:

How true. :-(

oh look...... Richie's sad.


The "Normals" are a group of wackos, eh?

oh look..... Richie's Canadian.


Lonely, small-time wackos follow bigger, louder wackos.....

oh look... Richie's ironical.

What did you do today, Richie? Change any diapers?
Are you living in the same room you grew up in?
(Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

Hey - how'd that protractor thing work out? Did
you make any money?

Richie the Pig writes:

Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week.....


Have you ever actually flown anywhere internationally, Richie?
Was it on Debby's dime?

Tom said:

Richie the Pig writes:

Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week.....

Have you ever actually flown anywhere internationally, Richie?
Was it on Debby's dime?

Who do you think bailed him out the last few times he was busted for fraud?

"Lionel" wrote

You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama you
feel like the king of the world.

You know something about Colorado? I have never
experienced 2 hours of hard ascension, however I do ride
a bicycle and hike in the mountains. And I have seen the
panarama from many passes. I know - it's not the same.

Windsurfing for me provides bigtime adrenaline high.

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick a écrit :

wrote in message
egroups.com...
Lionel wrote:


Clyde Slick a écrit :



I don't do anything to engender rude reactions.

LOL !!!



Once again, ol' Sackman just doesn't "get it". :-(


Here's an idea, Art: on your pass through CDG next week, try being
friendly and cheerful. Try a smile. Keep in mind that price gouging is
SOP at airports the world over (captive audience and all that) and
don't let the prices make you crabby. Chances are, some of those "rude"
French will return your smile. ;-)
------
I always smile, even at CDG. The French are rude, nevertheless.
Airport price gouging is at its worst at CDG. And the airport does not
nearly have as many nice amenities and features, as compared to
Heathrow or Amsterdam, for example.

I fly Air France (yes, I am not boycotting!) because of price,
schedule, and it is hooked up to my
Delta frequent flier plan. As far as my opinion of Air France,
it is competent, the planes are well maintained, not the most
friendly attendants, but very professional, and I feel safe.
I give better grades to British Airways, Lufthansa and Tarom.
KLM is about as good as Air France. But there is nothing excesively
wrong with either.

The staff at CDG is not so professional as the staff at Air France.
I am talking about security, sales, and bus dispatchers (they are
the most rude of the lot).

And what are you demonstrating, eh Sackman ?
Just that you are enough stupid to *regularly* pay 5 Euros for a small
bottle of mineral water in CDG airport.



You are an idiot. You think I go there every day, just to buy water!

Oh no... but you seems to have bought some at least 2 times
and that you are already foreseeing to purchase some a third
time. ;-)
It's enough to confirm your incredible stupidity Sack'Ô'****.

Tom a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote

You say that because you never arrived after 2 hours of hard ascencion at
a +2000 meters pass.
Just you on your bike... During the few minutes you watch the panorama you
feel like the king of the world.


You know something about Colorado? I have never
experienced 2 hours of hard ascension, however I do ride
a bicycle and hike in the mountains. And I have seen the
panarama from many passes. I know - it's not the same.

Windsurfing for me provides bigtime adrenaline high.

Note that the adrenaline addicts usually find a lot of
pleasure in the descent. 80-90 km/h on a small road full of
turns and 180° bends... I have some friends who love that.
Brrrr ! Too dangerous IMHO.

"Lionel" wrote

Note that the adrenaline addicts usually find a lot of pleasure in the
descent. 80-90 km/h on a small road full of turns and 180° bends... I have
some friends who love that.
Brrrr ! Too dangerous IMHO.

A high speed crash on rough water is scary and can be spectacular,
however, I've only been seriously hurt one time. I think only one
bike crash is required to get hurt. Watch out for that gravel!

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...


And what are you demonstrating, eh Sackman ?
Just that you are enough stupid to *regularly* pay 5 Euros for a small
bottle of mineral water in CDG airport.



You are an idiot. You think I go there every day, just to buy water!

Oh no... but you seems to have bought some at least 2 times and that you
are already foreseeing to purchase some a third time. ;-)
It's enough to confirm your incredible stupidity Sack'Ô'****.

I bought it once, I think, on my return. I try to buy enough at my departure
in Europe, at about 1 Euro, to last me. And I get some free mini bottles on
the plane.



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In , Clyde Slick wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...


And what are you demonstrating, eh Sackman ?
Just that you are enough stupid to *regularly* pay 5 Euros for a small
bottle of mineral water in CDG airport.



You are an idiot. You think I go there every day, just to buy water!

Oh no... but you seems to have bought some at least 2 times and that you
are already foreseeing to purchase some a third time. ;-)
It's enough to confirm your incredible stupidity Sack'Ô'****.

I bought it once, I think, on my return. I try to buy enough at my
departure in Europe, at about 1 Euro, to last me. And I get some free mini
bottles on the plane.

Thank you for all these details. Your life is so exciting. :-D

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

'rock' as 'noise'

Some of it is noise.

Even "Metal Machine Music" is music. Sorta.

And just about all of it is not what I
would consider listening to if I wanted to evaluate the
subjective accuracy of an audio system.

That's fine, for you, because you don't know what it should sound like.

Actually, neither do you - or any other rock fans, either,
at least if we are talking about accurately simulating a
typical live-music event.

Remember, at live rock concerts the sound is coming out of
speakers. There is no "real" instrument sound, so to speak,
nor is there any kind of live-music soundstaging. There is
no reference standard for ensemble layout. Yes, I know that
there are also variations with classical performances, but
the standards are certainly more stylized than what we have
with live rock performances.

With most rock recordings, the engineer is basically
building an "end-in-itself" item and not a simulation of a
live musical event. Ironically, if he did the latter,
oftentimes the result would be sound that is not up to hi-fi
standards. To get to those standards, he has to deliver
something that actually sounds BETTER than what will
ordinarily be heard at a live rock performance. However,
there is still no reference for precisely what is involved
when a rock recording sounds "better." Better than what?

One of the neat things about the new-era technologies (SACD,
DVD-A, and even DD and DTS musical reproductions) is that
the engineer can position instruments and performers in any
(or all) of 5 channels. He can even move them around, and I
have listened to a number of surround-sound pop recordings
that do just that. OK, now while this can be a lot of fun
(and obviously, no amount of DSP ambiance simulation with
two-channel sources can replicate the effect), such
recordings in no way allow the user to make use of them as
reference standards for the proper simulation of live-music
events. They are, as I have stated before, ends in
themselves and not simulations of live-music events.

On the other hand, a good recording engineer who is dealing
with classical music (baroque, romantic-era, impressionist,
etc. - you get the message) is in most cases trying to
simulate a live acoustic-instrument event as heard in a
concert hall, church, or salon. Rather than dial in various
instrument positionings in the surround and main channels,
he most of the time only installs the sound of hall ambiance
in the surrounds. Up front, the two (or hopefully three)
main channels deal with soundstaging depth, focus, detail,
and instrumental reproduction. Done right, such recordings
are vastly superior as subjective-evaluation tools than any
typical rock recording.

Some of us do know, or at least close enough to guess what rock should
sound like, as you presumably do with classical recordings.

You are certainly aware of what rock instruments, as
amplified and reproduced through banks of speakers located
in auditoriums or stadiums, sound like. The sound standards
are all over the map. There is no hard and fast rule about
just what is proper or not proper. This is no reference
standard for any decent recording.

Summary. Rock recordings may be a lot of fun for you guys,
but:

1) Such recordings are not adequate as reference standards
for evaluating audio equipment, be it high end or
mainstream.

2) It does not take a high-end system to do decent justice
to such recordings. Indeed, purchasing high-end audio gear
to listen to the vast bulk of rock recordings is probably a
waste of money.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

'rock' as 'noise'

Some of it is noise.

Even "Metal Machine Music" is music. Sorta.

And just about all of it is not what I
would consider listening to if I wanted to evaluate the
subjective accuracy of an audio system.

That's fine, for you, because you don't know what it should sound like.

Actually, neither do you - or any other rock fans, either,
at least if we are talking about accurately simulating a
typical live-music event.

Completely untrue. For instance, I saw the Talking Heads on the tour
that was filmed for "Stop Making Sense". That's a basis for comparison.

I've seen live performances, rehearsals, recording sessions enough to
have opinions about what a recording should sound like. Oh yes, I've
also played in bands and set up PAs.

And most recordings represent an ideal performance, not an actual one,
but this doesn't mean the intent is inscrutable.

Remember, at live rock concerts the sound is coming out of
speakers. There is no "real" instrument sound, so to speak,
nor is there any kind of live-music soundstaging.

What are you hearing when you're hugging the stage in the front row in
the shadow of the main speakers?

And PAs do soundstage.

There is
no reference standard for ensemble layout. Yes, I know that
there are also variations with classical performances, but
the standards are certainly more stylized than what we have
with live rock performances.

Are you really confused that guitars might be left, right or center? Can
you not recognize an orchestra if it splits violins?

With most rock recordings, the engineer is basically
building an "end-in-itself" item and not a simulation of a
live musical event. Ironically, if he did the latter,
oftentimes the result would be sound that is not up to hi-fi
standards. To get to those standards, he has to deliver
something that actually sounds BETTER than what will
ordinarily be heard at a live rock performance. However,
there is still no reference for precisely what is involved
when a rock recording sounds "better." Better than what?

You are so wrong: it's exactly a simulation of a live event. Is your
system so bad it doesn't synchronize instruments in rock recordings?

Look at DVDs of James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Richard Thompson, Paul
Simon, etc. Heck, Queen or AC/DC.

One of the neat things about the new-era technologies (SACD,
DVD-A, and even DD and DTS musical reproductions) is that
the engineer can position instruments and performers in any
(or all) of 5 channels. He can even move them around, and I
have listened to a number of surround-sound pop recordings
that do just that. OK, now while this can be a lot of fun
(and obviously, no amount of DSP ambiance simulation with
two-channel sources can replicate the effect), such
recordings in no way allow the user to make use of them as
reference standards for the proper simulation of live-music
events. They are, as I have stated before, ends in
themselves and not simulations of live-music events.

Does a violin somehow no longer sound like a violin because it's staged
in the rear speakers?

Electric instruments and amps do have distinctive tones just as some can
ID pianos in classical recordings.

On the other hand, a good recording engineer who is dealing
with classical music (baroque, romantic-era, impressionist,
etc. - you get the message) is in most cases trying to
simulate a live acoustic-instrument event as heard in a
concert hall, church, or salon. Rather than dial in various
instrument positionings in the surround and main channels,
he most of the time only installs the sound of hall ambiance
in the surrounds. Up front, the two (or hopefully three)
main channels deal with soundstaging depth, focus, detail,
and instrumental reproduction. Done right, such recordings
are vastly superior as subjective-evaluation tools than any
typical rock recording.

Unless you know what a rock recording should sound like.

Some of us do know, or at least close enough to guess what rock should
sound like, as you presumably do with classical recordings.

You are certainly aware of what rock instruments, as
amplified and reproduced through banks of speakers located
in auditoriums or stadiums, sound like. The sound standards
are all over the map. There is no hard and fast rule about
just what is proper or not proper. This is no reference
standard for any decent recording.

But many can tell a Les Paul from a Stratocaster, a front pick-up from a
back pick-up, flat-wound strings from round-wound.

What you're really saying is *you* don't have a reference.

Summary. Rock recordings may be a lot of fun for you guys,
but:

1) Such recordings are not adequate as reference standards
for evaluating audio equipment, be it high end or
mainstream.

Wrong, because they are well-known. they can be references.

2) It does not take a high-end system to do decent justice
to such recordings. Indeed, purchasing high-end audio gear
to listen to the vast bulk of rock recordings is probably a
waste of money.

The same can be said for classical.

Stephen