[Klay Anderson[_2_]]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-101...LeadStoriesAre
a.1


Breaks my flippin' heart....

--
Thanks!

--
Regards,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.
http://www.klay.com

[Richard Crowley]

"Klay Anderson" wrote...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-101...LeadStoriesAre
a.1

The URL points to an article about a couple saving money by dumping
satellite TV. No mention of Loud or China that I could find?

[Walter Harley]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Klay Anderson" wrote...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-101...LeadStoriesAre
a.1

The URL points to an article about a couple saving money by dumping
satellite TV. No mention of Loud or China that I could find?

Google yields:
http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/29867/L...ducer-collapse

Wonder if the same producer makes Behringer?

[Mike Rivers]

Klay Anderson wrote:

Breaks my flippin' heart....


That link must have been superseded by a story about a family who
watches television. Here's one that might still be current that probably
says something similar to the article that Klay tried to link to.

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seatt...5/daily15.html

Briefly, the manufacturer in China that makes about 1/3 of all of what
Mackie sells is shutting down because of the recession over there. While
it didn't specifically mention Mackie, there was a piece on Marketplace
this morning, or maybe last evening, about this problem. US customers
aren't buying as much stuff that's typically made in China so the orders
to the manufacturers are dropping off.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of folks.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

Walter Harley wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
"Klay Anderson" wrote...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-101...LeadStoriesAre
a.1

The URL points to an article about a couple saving money by dumping
satellite TV. No mention of Loud or China that I could find?

Google yields:
http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/29867/L...ducer-collapse

Wonder if the same producer makes Behringer?

Behringer has "their own factory in China" which is to say they own 49% of
a government factory which is run by Behringer people and dedicated only to
making Behringer products. It is pretty consolidated with a lot of vertical
integration.

The vast majority of the Behringer product line comes from that factory,
which actually seems to be pretty well run. Some Behringer products are
purchased from other factories, such as their rebadged microphones from
the 797 factory in Beijing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mickey]

On 2008-12-19, Klay Anderson wrote:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-101...LeadStoriesAre
a.1


They probably had engineers who posted questions with random text
wrapping, referencing transitory headline pages....

--
Mickey
If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of
car payments. -- Earl Wilson

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Klay Anderson wrote:

Breaks my flippin' heart....


That link must have been superseded by a story about a family who watches
television. Here's one that might still be current that probably says
something similar to the article that Klay tried to link to.

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seatt...5/daily15.html

Briefly, the manufacturer in China that makes about 1/3 of all of what
Mackie sells is shutting down because of the recession over there. While
it didn't specifically mention Mackie, there was a piece on Marketplace
this morning, or maybe last evening, about this problem. US customers
aren't buying as much stuff that's typically made in China so the orders
to the manufacturers are dropping off.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of folks.



I see nothing to gloat over or to spead ill will on about a significant
player in the pro sound market place haveing difficulty as a result of the
global recession
it's a sad day for the workers who havent been paid in months, it's a sad
day for the distribution world wide and it's a sad day for the consumers who
were serviced by their products
this whistling past the graveyard mentality just bothers me
george

[Scott Dorsey]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
I see nothing to gloat over or to spead ill will on about a significant
player in the pro sound market place haveing difficulty as a result of the
global recession

People aren't. What people are gloating about is the fact that Mackie used
to have US manufacturing, and for a long time they were very proud that their
products were manufactured in the US, but subsequently they went to contract
manufacturing in China to cut costs. And the truth is, you DO cut costs that
way, and you CAN get good quality control on some kinds of products, but
you lose control of your design and you lose control over the manufacture.

And when you lose control over the manufacture, things like this happen.

it's a sad day for the workers who havent been paid in months, it's a sad
day for the distribution world wide and it's a sad day for the consumers who
were serviced by their products

It's a sad day for the workers and for the distribution, but the fact of
Chinese manufacturing is that Mackie will just have to take their design
to another factory and have them tool up to make products for them.

this whistling past the graveyard mentality just bothers me

No, most of what you are hearing isn't whistling but a lot of folks gloating
and saying "I told you this would happen ten years ago."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
I see nothing to gloat over or to spead ill will on about a significant
player in the pro sound market place haveing difficulty as a result of the
global recession

People aren't. What people are gloating about is the fact that Mackie
used
to have US manufacturing, and for a long time they were very proud that
their
products were manufactured in the US, but subsequently they went to
contract
manufacturing in China to cut costs. And the truth is, you DO cut costs
that
way, and you CAN get good quality control on some kinds of products, but
you lose control of your design and you lose control over the manufacture.

And when you lose control over the manufacture, things like this happen.

it's a sad day for the workers who havent been paid in months, it's a sad
day for the distribution world wide and it's a sad day for the consumers
who
were serviced by their products

It's a sad day for the workers and for the distribution, but the fact of
Chinese manufacturing is that Mackie will just have to take their design
to another factory and have them tool up to make products for them.

this whistling past the graveyard mentality just bothers me

No, most of what you are hearing isn't whistling but a lot of folks
gloating
and saying "I told you this would happen ten years ago."
--scott

Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

wonder how long it will take to come full circle where the USA is hungry
enough tobecome a serious world player in manufactureing again?
george

[William Sommerwerck]

I visited Mackie over a decade ago, trying to get a tech-writer job. I
toured the plant, and was impressed with what they were doing. Mackie
equipment was hardly "expensive", so I was disappointed at their moving
production to China. (I've owned Mackie, by the way.)

[Richard Crowley]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
I visited Mackie over a decade ago, trying to get a tech-writer job. I
toured the plant, and was impressed with what they were doing. Mackie
equipment was hardly "expensive", so I was disappointed at their moving
production to China. (I've owned Mackie, by the way.)

But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore. What is happening in Detroit should be a
major clue.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
I visited Mackie over a decade ago, trying to get a tech-writer job. I
toured the plant, and was impressed with what they were doing. Mackie
equipment was hardly "expensive", so I was disappointed at their moving
production to China. (I've owned Mackie, by the way.)

But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore. What is happening in Detroit should be a
major clue.

I don't know what their cost structure was. The PC boards were mostly
populated and soldered by machine.

[Scott Dorsey]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

Yup, and the same problems happened when folks were outsourcing manufacture
to Japan as well. And they will happen in the future when they contract
them out to Bangladesh or whoever is next.

wonder how long it will take to come full circle where the USA is hungry
enough tobecome a serious world player in manufactureing again?

These days you don't have to be hungry, because manufacturing of most of
this stuff is no longer labour-intensive. You can thank the Japanese for
that. But you DO have to have a substantial investment up front in facilities,
you need to be located near other manufacturing plants that will make your
components and subassemblies, and you need to either not care about
environmental effects or be willing to pay the money to prevent them.

When I was a kid, Pittsburgh was as polluted as Beijing is today. I don't
want to see that again, no matter what it may bring.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
I visited Mackie over a decade ago, trying to get a tech-writer job. I
toured the plant, and was impressed with what they were doing. Mackie
equipment was hardly "expensive", so I was disappointed at their moving
production to China. (I've owned Mackie, by the way.)

But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore. What is happening in Detroit should be a
major clue.

I don't know what their cost structure was. The PC boards were mostly
populated and soldered by machine.

It's a lot cheaper to do that in China where you can just dump all your
copper-laden used etchant into the river, than it is here where it costs
a lot of money to dispose of it properly. And all those machines DO have
to be maintained by somebody who gets paid.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

Yup, and the same problems happened when folks were outsourcing manufacture
to Japan as well. And they will happen in the future when they contract
them out to Bangladesh or whoever is next.

wonder how long it will take to come full circle where the USA is hungry
enough tobecome a serious world player in manufactureing again?

These days you don't have to be hungry, because manufacturing of most of
this stuff is no longer labour-intensive. You can thank the Japanese for
that. But you DO have to have a substantial investment up front in facilities,
you need to be located near other manufacturing plants that will make your
components and subassemblies, and you need to either not care about
environmental effects or be willing to pay the money to prevent them.

When I was a kid, Pittsburgh was as polluted as Beijing is today. I don't
want to see that again, no matter what it may bring.
--scott


OK now you did it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxmAh1cyoA

I would like to understand how things can exist, and what real jobs there are.
When real jobs are lost, at what point does everything fall into a black hole.
Manufacturing is a real job, selling hamburgers, working at Walmart, being a dentist,
are not real jobs. They are service jobs for people with real jobs. I guess making
recordings for peoples pleasure is also not a real job.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , (Scott Dorsey)
wrote:
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

Yup, and the same problems happened when folks were outsourcing manufacture
to Japan as well. And they will happen in the future when they contract
them out to Bangladesh or whoever is next.

wonder how long it will take to come full circle where the USA is hungry
enough tobecome a serious world player in manufactureing again?

These days you don't have to be hungry, because manufacturing of most of
this stuff is no longer labour-intensive. You can thank the Japanese for
that. But you DO have to have a substantial investment up front in
facilities,
you need to be located near other manufacturing plants that will make your
components and subassemblies, and you need to either not care about
environmental effects or be willing to pay the money to prevent them.

When I was a kid, Pittsburgh was as polluted as Beijing is today. I don't
want to see that again, no matter what it may bring.
--scott


OK now you did it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxmAh1cyoA

I would like to understand how things can exist, and what real jobs there are.
When real jobs are lost, at what point does everything fall into a black hole.
Manufacturing is a real job, selling hamburgers, working at Walmart, being a
dentist,
are not real jobs. They are service jobs for people with real jobs. I guess
making
recordings for peoples pleasure is also not a real job.


Just thinking in the small borough I used to live in nearby, some more Pittsburgh-
Pleasant Hills firsts. First auto cloverleaf, first home fallout shelter,
I have also heard the first shopping center at that cloverleaf. Might
also be the first HBO cartoon special made in the basement of the first
fallout shelter. Not too many people know about that.

greg

[Scott Dorsey]

GregS wrote:
I would like to understand how things can exist, and what real jobs there are.
When real jobs are lost, at what point does everything fall into a black hole.
Manufacturing is a real job, selling hamburgers, working at Walmart, being a dentist,
are not real jobs. They are service jobs for people with real jobs. I guess making
recordings for peoples pleasure is also not a real job.

According to Jefferson, the only "real" jobs that generate real wealth from
labour are in agriculture.

I think he was unnecessarily restrictive but he has a point.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

Richard Crowley wrote:

But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore.

So why make inexpensive goods? The Mackie mixers and their other
products built a lot of good design and solid manufacturing into what
was a revolutionarily low priced package at the time. Sure, it was a
$1,000 mixer in a universe of $10,000+ mixers, but it was good
performance for a low end mixer and a good value. The reason why they
had to make it cheaper is because someone else came along and did just
that, at a time when there were a lot of "almost ready" customers who
bought in because they didn't have to spend as much as a Mackie cost,
and low end pro audio gear became a commodity.

In the commodity market, you can't compete based on better build
quality, and the numbers (and the sound) was comparable. There was no
reason to spend more money on a Mackie for most buyers. So they either
had to get the price down to be competitive or change gears and make
other products. They tried that for a while and had pretty good success
with the digital console and hard disk recorders, and their original
control room monitor speakers won over a lot of fans. Those were more
expensive products than the compact mixer line that put them on the map,
but at least for a while, they didn't have any competition and those
products were selling fairly well. But time marches on.

What is happening in Detroit should be a major clue.

Unfortunately, the same thing is happening, to a lesser extent, in Japan
now. Toyota posted a loss for the past quarter. But it wasn't because
people were buying Fusion instead of Camry, it was because people
weren't buying cars.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
Richard Crowley wrote:
But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore.

So why make inexpensive goods?

And you answered your own question...
Because you can sell more goods and make enough money
to keep the company in business.

The Mackie mixers and their other products built a lot of good design and
solid manufacturing into what was a revolutionarily low priced package at
the time. Sure, it was a $1,000 mixer in a universe of $10,000+ mixers,
but it was good performance for a low end mixer and a good value. The
reason why they had to make it cheaper is because someone else came along
and did just that, at a time when there were a lot of "almost ready"
customers who bought in because they didn't have to spend as much as a
Mackie cost, and low end pro audio gear became a commodity.

In the commodity market, you can't compete based on better build quality,
and the numbers (and the sound) was comparable. There was no reason to
spend more money on a Mackie for most buyers. So they either had to get
the price down to be competitive or change gears and make other products.

And that is the direct result of the global economy. For better or for
worse. People in 3rd world countries aren't going to increase their
standard of living unilaterally. Those of us living high up on the hog
will have to move down a bit. It is not a zero-sum game, to be sure,
but things like this aren't entirely independent, either.

They tried that for a while and had pretty good success with the digital
console and hard disk recorders, and their original control room monitor
speakers won over a lot of fans. Those were more expensive products than
the compact mixer line that put them on the map, but at least for a while,
they didn't have any competition and those products were selling fairly
well. But time marches on.

And Alesis is still in the hard drive recorder business. Or at least
Numark is still manufacturing the design they bought from Alesis.
If they don't spend some development money and update it for
SATA drives, it will soon go the way of the Dodo bird and the
Mackie machine as PATA drives disappear altogether.

What is happening in Detroit should be a major clue.

Unfortunately, the same thing is happening, to a lesser extent, in Japan
now. Toyota posted a loss for the past quarter. But it wasn't because
people were buying Fusion instead of Camry, it was because people weren't
buying cars.

And people aren't buying cars because the magical finance
bubble burst. But in good times or bad, people with a lower
cost of doing business will always be in a better position to
survive.

[Eeyore]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

You have to be ****ing kidding ! They're still in the stone ages.

India maybe.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

GregS wrote:
I would like to understand how things can exist, and what real jobs there are.
When real jobs are lost, at what point does everything fall into a black hole.
Manufacturing is a real job, selling hamburgers, working at Walmart, being a dentist,
are not real jobs. They are service jobs for people with real jobs. I guess making
recordings for peoples pleasure is also not a real job.

According to Jefferson, the only "real" jobs that generate real wealth from
labour are in agriculture.

I think he was unnecessarily restrictive but he has a point.

It's an example I often use. Coal mining, steel making and the like might also be
classified in a similar way.

Graham

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
Richard Crowley wrote:
But that is exactly WHY they moved production to China.
Companies can't afford to make inexpensive goods in the
US anymore.

So why make inexpensive goods?

And you answered your own question...
Because you can sell more goods and make enough money
to keep the company in business.

In the end it doesn't work that way. It works for a while, but sooner
or later somebody always undercuts you with a worse quality product for
even less.

The bottom end of the market is a terribly hard place to be.

And people aren't buying cars because the magical finance
bubble burst. But in good times or bad, people with a lower
cost of doing business will always be in a better position to
survive.

What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things. We have
car companies that have been on the verge of collapse for the past 20
years, due to financial mismanagement and the inability to make product
designs that people really want.

Ford has been starting to turn things around. GM has even been starting
to turn things around... they even have a Cadillac model that feels like
a real car now.

But now the downturn comes.... people become more conservative about buying
new things, credit becomes harder to obtain. It's bad for all of the car
manufacturers, but folks like Toyota and Ford are in good enough shape
that they can handle it. GM might have been in good enough shape to handle
it if the downturn had come a few years later, but it came before they had
a chance to really fix their problems. Chrysler is a lost cause.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[yrret]

"GregS" wrote in message
...
In article , (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

Yup, and the same problems happened when folks were outsourcing
manufacture
to Japan as well. And they will happen in the future when they contract
them out to Bangladesh or whoever is next.

wonder how long it will take to come full circle where the USA is hungry
enough tobecome a serious world player in manufactureing again?

These days you don't have to be hungry, because manufacturing of most of
this stuff is no longer labour-intensive. You can thank the Japanese for
that. But you DO have to have a substantial investment up front in
facilities,
you need to be located near other manufacturing plants that will make your
components and subassemblies, and you need to either not care about
environmental effects or be willing to pay the money to prevent them.

When I was a kid, Pittsburgh was as polluted as Beijing is today. I don't
want to see that again, no matter what it may bring.
--scott


OK now you did it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxmAh1cyoA

I would like to understand how things can exist, and what real jobs there
are.
When real jobs are lost, at what point does everything fall into a black
hole.
Manufacturing is a real job, selling hamburgers, working at Walmart, being
a dentist,
are not real jobs. They are service jobs for people with real jobs. I
guess making
recordings for peoples pleasure is also not a real job.

greg


Maybe I'm crazy but in the next 100 years its possible/likely that robotics
will be advanced enough to take over most routine tasks that a person does
today. So eventually even China/Mexico will be losing these very same jobs
to technology. Maybe the U.S. is still ahead of the game?

[Mike Rivers]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

Where in the Mackie line does the stuff made by that outfit fit? High, low,
or random?

I guess you'll find out when dealers start running out of stock of
certain models. The article says that this amounts to about 1/3 of their
sales. If they're talking about dollars rather than units (which I
assume they are) it would probably include the full compact mixer line.
But I really have no idea. I don't know how many assembly factories in
China they use, though I'm sure it's more than one.

Here in the US, there are "fulfillment" manufacturers who might make
bird houses one day and loudspeakers another day, and I assume that
China has something similar. So it's possible that Mackie's loudspeakers
aren't made in the same factory as the mixers, as was the case when
everything was made in Woodinville.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

Business moves all the time
when I was growing up it was japan that was the evil empire
I postulate bangladesh/afganistan will be next

You have to be ****ing kidding ! They're still in the stone ages.

India maybe.

Responding to U.S. threats and demands that the Taliban hand over BinLaden,
one of the Taliban leaders joked that there wasn't any infrastructure to
destroy. He said, and I quote, "We can't even make glass." Apparently, this
was true. Even Somalia probably has a glass bottle factory.

Back around 1999, UPS put Afghanistan at the top of their shipping drop-down
chart, just to show how exotic they could be. After 2001, they decided this
did not exactly remind the shipper of pleasant things, so the U.S. was once
again listed out of alphabetical order.

Talking of UPS, It reminded me of the missile attack on a DHL A300 leaving
Baghdad. It got made into a docu-drama. Phenomenal how they got it down.

http://coppermine.luchtzak.be/thumbnails-36.html
http://coppermine.luchtzak.be/displayimage-36-4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Ba...tdown_incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M73C5SbehAs

Watch it and know your enemy. RELIGION !

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Here in the US, there are "fulfillment" manufacturers who might make
bird houses one day and loudspeakers another day, and I assume that
China has something similar.

Reminds me of why Siemens bought Neve. They had a factory in Austria that made
telephone equipment 11 months a year and audio desks (presumably for the local
broadcast etc market) for the remaining month !

Graham

[William Sommerwerck]

What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things.
We have car companies that have been on the verge of collapse
for the past 20 years, due to financial mismanagement and the
inability to make product designs that people really want.

It seems to me it's the other way around -- Detroit has been pandering to
the American taste for big vehicles far too long.

By the way, I own a used Ford Focus, and it is a very nice car. (The
visibility from the driver's seat is remarkable.) Detroit can make good
cars, if it wants to.

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Soundhaspriority wrote:

Where in the Mackie line does the stuff made by that outfit fit? High,
low, or random?

I guess you'll find out when dealers start running out of stock of certain
models. The article says that this amounts to about 1/3 of their sales. If
they're talking about dollars rather than units (which I assume they are)
it would probably include the full compact mixer line. But I really have
no idea. I don't know how many assembly factories in China they use,
though I'm sure it's more than one.

Here in the US, there are "fulfillment" manufacturers who might make bird
houses one day and loudspeakers another day, and I assume that China has
something similar. So it's possible that Mackie's loudspeakers aren't made
in the same factory as the mixers, as was the case when everything was
made in Woodinville.

and remember even if production come back to the united stated it will still
be a cheap piece of crap, only it will cost more
there is nothing after the design that will improve the performance of a
unit
if it is designed as a disposable product, it will be a disposable product,
regardless of where it is built or how much labor and environment concerns
inflate it's final cost

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things.
We have car companies that have been on the verge of collapse
for the past 20 years, due to financial mismanagement and the
inability to make product designs that people really want.

It seems to me it's the other way around -- Detroit has been pandering to
the American taste for big vehicles far too long.

By the way, I own a used Ford Focus, and it is a very nice car. (The
visibility from the driver's seat is remarkable.) Detroit can make good
cars, if it wants to.

I guess you are talking the visibility out the windshield, visablity around
the car and out the back was **** poor
but I got no leg to stand on, I owned a Taurus, easily the worst car i owned
since my Pinto
George

[Richard Crowley]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things.
We have car companies that have been on the verge of collapse
for the past 20 years, due to financial mismanagement and the
inability to make product designs that people really want.

It seems to me it's the other way around -- Detroit has been pandering to
the American taste for big vehicles far too long.

The high labor cost (due to the UAW contracts) precludes making a
profit on smaller,more fuel-efficient vehicles. Note that none of the
competitors making smaller cars pay as much for the total, burdened
cost of labor. The "bailout" is for the UAW, not for the carmakers.
They (UAW) are the traditional, loyal Democrat voters who have
priced the US auto business out of the global market.

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
. ..
"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things.
We have car companies that have been on the verge of collapse
for the past 20 years, due to financial mismanagement and the
inability to make product designs that people really want.

It seems to me it's the other way around -- Detroit has been pandering to
the American taste for big vehicles far too long.

The high labor cost (due to the UAW contracts) precludes making a
profit on smaller,more fuel-efficient vehicles. Note that none of the
competitors making smaller cars pay as much for the total, burdened
cost of labor. The "bailout" is for the UAW, not for the carmakers.
They (UAW) are the traditional, loyal Democrat voters who have
priced the US auto business out of the global market.

I agree some UAW workers are getting 300$ a hour during holiday weekends to
effectivly sit on thier thumbs and they have virtual cradle to grave
benifits that even without a paycheck would put them in the top 5% of
americans
george

[William Sommerwerck]

By the way, I own a used Ford Focus, and it is a very nice car. (The
visibility from the driver's seat is remarkable.) Detroit can make good
cars, if it wants to.

I guess you are talking the visibility out the windshield, visablity
around
the car and out the back was **** poor.

Not just the windshield. The sides are unusually good, the rear window
merely okay. (My former car was a Chevy Beretta. I often had trouble seeing
out the sides.)

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
By the way, I own a used Ford Focus, and it is a very nice car. (The
visibility from the driver's seat is remarkable.) Detroit can make good
cars, if it wants to.

I guess you are talking the visibility out the windshield, visablity
around
the car and out the back was **** poor.

i would guess you are taller than my 5 foot 8 self
My dads fusion was scary for me(as was my taurus)

[Mike Rivers]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and remember even if production come back to the united stated it will still
be a cheap piece of crap, only it will cost more
there is nothing after the design that will improve the performance of a
unit
if it is designed as a disposable product, it will be a disposable product,
regardless of where it is built or how much labor and environment concerns
inflate it's final cost

George, I know you've had bad luck with Mackie products in your
business, so your prejudice is justified. But there are a whole lot of
people who are using Mackie mixers in their home studios and on stage
with their bands with great success and long time performance. Just
because something is built with automated manufacturing techniques
doesn't mean it's a disposable product.

I see people asking about noisy faders in 10 year old Mackies. I don't
think that's an unreasonable lifespan for a mechanical component in any
mixer. They balk at paying $100 to have it repaired (maybe they bought
it third hand five years ago for only $200) but in this case it's only
"disposable" because the owner makes that decision. The difference
between a $300 Mackie and a $10,000 Yamaha is that people who bought the
Yamaha either know how to fix it themselves or realize that they have
enough money into it to get it repaired. People who buy $300 mixers are
just different kinds of people.

Me, I'm looking for a calculator I can keep in the kitchen that outlasts
its batteries. I've had three $3 calculators there in the last six years
and they've all died. But I haven't gone to the rec.calculators.pro
newsgroup asking "does anyone know how to replace the display?"
Actually, my HP-55 has been working fine for 30 years. While I can't buy
a new battery pack for it, I can (and have ) make my own.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[William Sommerwerck]

Me, I'm looking for a calculator I can keep in the kitchen that
outlasts its batteries. I've had three $3 calculators there in the
last six years and they've all died.

It's probably an environmental problem. You need to seal all the seams,
including the area around the display. Plastic LCD protector sheets should
work for the latter.

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and remember even if production come back to the united stated it will
still be a cheap piece of crap, only it will cost more
there is nothing after the design that will improve the performance of a
unit
if it is designed as a disposable product, it will be a disposable
product, regardless of where it is built or how much labor and
environment concerns inflate it's final cost

George, I know you've had bad luck with Mackie products in your business,
so your prejudice is justified. But there are a whole lot of people who
are using Mackie mixers in their home studios and on stage with their
bands with great success and long time performance. Just because something
is built with automated manufacturing techniques doesn't mean it's a
disposable product.

I see people asking about noisy faders in 10 year old Mackies. I don't
think that's an unreasonable lifespan for a mechanical component in any
mixer. They balk at paying $100 to have it repaired (maybe they bought it
third hand five years ago for only $200) but in this case it's only
"disposable" because the owner makes that decision. The difference between
a $300 Mackie and a $10,000 Yamaha is that people who bought the Yamaha
either know how to fix it themselves or realize that they have enough
money into it to get it repaired. People who buy $300 mixers are just
different kinds of people.

Me, I'm looking for a calculator I can keep in the kitchen that outlasts
its batteries. I've had three $3 calculators there in the last six years
and they've all died. But I haven't gone to the rec.calculators.pro
newsgroup asking "does anyone know how to replace the display?"
Actually, my HP-55 has been working fine for 30 years. While I can't buy a
new battery pack for it, I can (and have ) make my own.

Mike , I'd just like a pair of shoes that can outlive the original laces
forunder 300$

I think you missed my point
the cheap products are designed to hit a disposable price point
it is the design that makes these cheap not the manufacturing so much, the
manufacturing is part of the design

I saw EAW building KF940 subs when I toured that building
it was virtually sheets of plywood in one end of the machine, finished
speakers out the other
automation can be our friend
but a cheap design will be a cheap design if the workers get 12 cents a hour
or 35$ a hour

I have a lot of use for disposable products , I use things in harsh
environments and the constant maintence would be way too much effort if I
were to use "quality builds"
so I buy disposable stuff for those applications

I think the original Mackie's did have some quality, but that faded fast and
did not translate when they used the same designs on larger mixers

I also believe the 1202 was 4x the mixer the 1402 was as far as reliability
so I am not so much anti-Mackie, Hell loud technologies head hunted me to
lead their tour sound division, and they HAD to know "about" me
just the Chinese workers are no less skilled than the American workers, and
products built to the same design will come off the assembly line the same,
it doesn't matter if that line is in Australia, England, the USA ,Japan or
china
the only difference will be the cost, not quality
George

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
What is happening in Detroit is a bunch of different things.
We have car companies that have been on the verge of collapse
for the past 20 years, due to financial mismanagement and the
inability to make product designs that people really want.

It seems to me it's the other way around -- Detroit has been pandering to
the American taste for big vehicles far too long.

This is true, but I don't think the American taste is really going to
change. Americans will still want big cars. The thing is, if you want
to be assured of doing well in the long run, you have to be able to make
cars to sell abroad too. And you have to have a diversified product line
so that when tastes do change you can deal with that. Ford has done
reasonably well with that, but GM and Chrysler have not.

By the way, I own a used Ford Focus, and it is a very nice car. (The
visibility from the driver's seat is remarkable.) Detroit can make good
cars, if it wants to.

As long as people keep buying crappy cars, vendors will continue making
them. The thing is.... people have been tolerating fewer and fewer crappy
cars over the past 20 years.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On 20 Dec 2008 10:16:57 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

This is true, but I don't think the American taste is really going to
change. Americans will still want big cars.

This illustrates perfectly the basic problem. Whether it's economic
meltdown or climate change, no-one wants to consider measures that
actually affect THEIR personal lifestyle. No matter if OTHER people
fall off the bottom rung, so long as resources are pumped into
propping up THEIR status quo.

Maybe provoking a full-scale war is the only way of forcing a decadent
system to shake down. Bush may not have been as stupid as he looked.

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley wrote:
The high labor cost (due to the UAW contracts) precludes making a
profit on smaller,more fuel-efficient vehicles. Note that none of the
competitors making smaller cars pay as much for the total, burdened
cost of labor. The "bailout" is for the UAW, not for the carmakers.
They (UAW) are the traditional, loyal Democrat voters who have
priced the US auto business out of the global market.

Actually if you look, most of that "labour" cost is actually the cost
of handling retirement of former UAW members. Turns out that the cost
of medical insurance is a lot higher than anyone thought it would get.

Interesting too that if you look at GM, a remarkable amount of their
debt is actually from GMAC and not the manufacturing divisions.

Paying workers well is a good thing. The bad thing is when you're having
to compete against workers who are vastly underpaid. But in the case of
auto manufacture, the labour costs are actually a very small part of the
whole thing, and they get lower every year. You can thank the Japanese
for that.... they came up with the automated assembly systems that reduce
the number of workers needed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:

George, I know you've had bad luck with Mackie products in your
business, so your prejudice is justified. But there are a whole lot of
people who are using Mackie mixers in their home studios and on stage
with their bands with great success and long time performance. Just
because something is built with automated manufacturing techniques
doesn't mean it's a disposable product.

But it _is_ a disposable product, just like almost all electronics sold
today. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way the market
works out these days.

If it weren't disposable, it would have modules that could be swapped on
the fly, PC board masks that indicated busses and signal flow, and test
points on the board. It might even (like Radio Systems boards) have a
meter built inside with test probes for easier field diagnosis. But very
few folks do that kind of thing today, because the economics have made
it expensive to repair and cheap to replace most of this stuff.

I see people asking about noisy faders in 10 year old Mackies. I don't
think that's an unreasonable lifespan for a mechanical component in any
mixer. They balk at paying $100 to have it repaired (maybe they bought
it third hand five years ago for only $200) but in this case it's only
"disposable" because the owner makes that decision. The difference
between a $300 Mackie and a $10,000 Yamaha is that people who bought the
Yamaha either know how to fix it themselves or realize that they have
enough money into it to get it repaired. People who buy $300 mixers are
just different kinds of people.

The difference is that if it costs $100 to repair, but it costs $200
to replace it, it is no longer cost effective to repair. This is
the definition of disposibility.

Me, I'm looking for a calculator I can keep in the kitchen that outlasts
its batteries. I've had three $3 calculators there in the last six years
and they've all died. But I haven't gone to the rec.calculators.pro
newsgroup asking "does anyone know how to replace the display?"
Actually, my HP-55 has been working fine for 30 years. While I can't buy
a new battery pack for it, I can (and have ) make my own.

You can buy a new battery pack for it, from International Calculator in
Florida. They will also replace the display for you. They'll charge a
lot more than $3 to do it, but they have the parts and the skills on hand
to repair all of those HPs. They aren't disposable, and they are still
supported because it's still cost-effective to support them even thirty
years later.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."