Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at
http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

(Robba T) wrote in
om:

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at
http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...%20Life%20is%2
0Lame.MP3


Just for a laugh, I listened on my laptop speakers. Sounded like I was
listening to half the tracks. No Bass, No Kick. Most amusing.

(Robba T) wrote in
om:

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at
http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...%20Life%20is%2
0Lame.MP3

The magic number on most cheap systems is 80 Hz. That's right around the
resonance point of most cars and the note you hear shaking their windows.

Dropping an octave or more below that will yield no sound at all in most
players.

Robba T wrote:

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at
http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

It sounds like a mid-90's cheap computer adventure game backing track.

When your only aim is to play in clubs, then the 30Hz might be heard, but it might
also cause the DJ not to play it because he's too afraid he will rupture his bass
cabinets (no ****... it happened to me once that a DJ wouldn't play my song because
it was too bass heavy... I kid you not).

And indeed the volume of the complete song will be only half of comparable songs on
other discs (if even that) due to the fact that bass has a much higher volume than
all the rest, and sub bass is even worse.

I would hardly call an engineer a "suit" btw... A sound engineer is more a blue
collar guy than a white collar guy. If he's the right guy for the job, he's made
dozens of albums and ran into all kinds of problems while making them, and has
learned from them. Using sub bass on audio tracks is probably one of those problems.

A studio is more than a pack of gear. The guy operating the gear is a very important
factor in the process. When you have so little trust in the opinion of an
experienced engineer, and think he's only there to wreck your album, why go to a (or
this) studio at all? Buy some recording stuff and do it yourself. Then you can
produce songs that never go above 40 Hz at all if you wish.

Erwin Timmerman

Some head scratching, and the mongo bass system was replaced with a
remarkably small number of Bose SR speakers. You know, pentagonal boxes with
8-9 little drivers. Might have even been consumer Bose, come to think of it.
It is said that the paying clientele (they're the ones who REALLY matter!)
really liked the *improved* bass. Yes, I said *improved* bass. That would be
subjectively improved, of course. The Bose also lasted appreciably longer.

Well, it does make you wonder who we're mixing for, doesn't it. People don't
always want "good" & aren't often capable of discerning "good" when it's
presented to them.
The fact that Bose PA systems are considered even remotely acceptable by
anybody, I believe, is predicated on out-of-context listening situations. The
wavefront from all those little paper drivers doesn't sound all that bad up to
about 10 feet from the box. PA systems, however, need to have controlled
directionality & to have sufficiently long throw to hit the back row of the
auditorium, both qualities Bose is utterly lacking.
Scott Fraser

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.

If there's truly pitch down there, yes. Remember that only the B string on a 5
string bass & synths/samplers are capable of putting out frequencies in that
range, & generally only club disco systems are hyped enough to reproduce that
range. I think you'd be better off using something like the Rennaissance Bass
plugin (or hardware) to give solidity to the low bass on systems that don't
actually handle true bass.

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge.

Over-exaggerrated bass does not always equal "huge". Sometimes it just makes
mud, or irrelevance, depending on the arrangement & production.

but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

If you don't trust the engineer why are you hiring him? If you just want a
yes-man who will agree to take direction from inexperienced amateurs, you could
save yourselves the money & mix it yourself in your bedroom DAW. You might
consider that he knows exactly how much bass to put on a record because he does
it for a living.

Scott Fraser

Robba T wrote:
Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.

Compared to *less* than 30 Hz , you're correct.


we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

That'd probably take a lot more than a week, sorry.


.cE

Be careful with bass frequencies. The psychoacoustic principles relating to
perception of low frequencies are real: you tend to hear the fundamental even
when it is absent if the harmonics are present. If you made records (vinyl),
you had to limit the low frequencies to keep the needle in the groove and those
old albums had plenty of bass.

If you want to bounce a quarter on the car's roof with the lows, you are not
really concerned with the music. If you want a rich, tight bottom end, you
might not need as much below 100 Hz as you think.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

"Mike" wrote in message
...

Just for a laugh, I listened on my laptop speakers. Sounded like I was
listening to half the tracks. No Bass, No Kick. Most amusing.

There is no kick drum in that mp3 .. so even if you hear the bass, it still
sounds like something's missing.

/Preben Friis

"ScotFraser" wrote in message

Some head scratching, and the mongo bass system was replaced with a
remarkably small number of Bose SR speakers. You know, pentagonal
boxes with 8-9 little drivers. Might have even been consumer Bose,
come to think of it. It is said that the paying clientele (they're
the ones who REALLY matter!) really liked the *improved* bass. Yes, I
said *improved* bass. That would be subjectively improved, of course.
The Bose also lasted appreciably longer.

Well, it does make you wonder who we're mixing for, doesn't it.

Paying customers, right?

;-)

People don't always want "good" & aren't often capable of discerning
"good" when it's presented to them.

The way I put it is that technical good and perceived value good sometimes
don't coincide. There are some technical arguments to be made in this case,
such as the fact that consumer systems that respond clean and loud below 43
Hz are not all that common.

The fact that Bose PA systems are considered even remotely acceptable
by anybody, I believe, is predicated on out-of-context listening
situations. The wavefront from all those little paper drivers doesn't
sound all that bad up to about 10 feet from the box. PA systems,
however, need to have controlled directionality & to have
sufficiently long throw to hit the back row of the auditorium, both
qualities Bose is utterly lacking. Scott Fraser

My philosophies about what makes a good SR speaker seem to be pretty much
the same as yours - controlled directivity rules.

However I've seen near omni speakers actually work in some rooms, heaven
forbid!

Still, I've never recommended or been forced to use Bose, though I've had
some near-Bose experiences.

"Preben Friis" wrote in
:


"Mike" wrote in message
...

Just for a laugh, I listened on my laptop speakers. Sounded like I
was listening to half the tracks. No Bass, No Kick. Most amusing.

There is no kick drum in that mp3 .. so even if you hear the bass, it
still sounds like something's missing.

/Preben Friis



Kick drum comes in at 1:44??

Suckered me into a listen too. Kids these days!!!! In my day that song would
have been filled up with good, loud and respectable screaming, towering guitar
solos and big haired lead vocalists strutting around (you knew they were there
whether you could see them or not). Sheeesh! The only imagery I could conjure
for that piece was 6 guys lugging a coffin around.

The bass was not too unruly on my system with a 15" sub. Not my monitor system. A
system I have down stairs with a Samson Servo 260, NS10's and a basic quality 15"
powered sub. Computer out... into mixer etc....
The levels weren't awful but the bass was completely uneven. LOUD on some notes
and indistinct on others, disappeared on others. It didn't seem to correlate to
anything musically going on above it. Didn't seem to support or be connected to
the track other than being in the same key and playing the roots of the chords, it
that's what they were. I don't object to low bass but I want it to DO something to
move me or the song (or my date). Low frequencies are too powerful and valuable to
leave them thumping around listlessly at the bottom of a song. If you are going to
use them (Low frequencies) , USE them to some purpose that rocks or shakes or rolls
or moves or SOMETHING!

Man!!!! Give me "Cowgirl In The Sand" or "Time" (DSOTM), Cortez The Killer,
Whipping Post, Spoonful, You Shook Me. OK...I'm an old guy. It was a great
time...Patric

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

Well, you suckered me into listening, so now you gotta know that if that's
what you want from my studio, you gotta go. Mixing and getting good lows
and maintaining some coherence throughtout the piece isn't just a matter of
turning up 30Hz on your 15 band graphic EQ.

PLEASE let the man who knows what he's doing do his job right. You'll be
glad he did.

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681

"Robba T" wrote in message
om...
Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at

http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

"Preben Friis" wrote in news:bgru5i$rsiia$1@ID-
184978.news.uni-berlin.de:



Oooops. Didn't listen that far .... So much for my patience. .. .;-)

/Preben Friis


TeeHee! Don't blame you for not listening past the 1st 30 seconds...

"Mike" wrote in message
...
"Preben Friis" wrote

There is no kick drum in that mp3 .. so even if you hear the bass, it
still sounds like something's missing.

/Preben Friis

Kick drum comes in at 1:44??

Oooops. Didn't listen that far .... So much for my patience. .. .;-)

/Preben Friis

Trust an engineer, not your own limited knowledge and experience. If you
want more bass, learn what the knobs on the front of the stereo are for.
They even have labels.

And if you think your "young friends" are going to be listening to a ton of
bass on their computer systems, well, you're out of line there too. So you
want the engineer to screw up your mix so that you can put bass out over
speakers that weren't designed to handle low or large amounts of bass.

Yeah, blame the suits, by all means. Particularly when you've got your 1000
CDs still sitting in your closet because you can't even give them away.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Robba T" wrote in message
om...
Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at

http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

Well, you suckered me into listening, so now you gotta know that if that's
what you want from my studio, you gotta go. Mixing and getting good lows
and maintaining some coherence throughtout the piece isn't just a matter of
turning up 30Hz on your 15 band graphic EQ.

PLEASE let the man who knows what he's doing do his job right. You'll be
glad he did.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Robba T" wrote in message
om...
Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at

http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

Arny Krueger wrote:
My philosophies about what makes a good SR speaker seem to be pretty much
the same as yours - controlled directivity rules.

However I've seen near omni speakers actually work in some rooms, heaven
forbid!

Still, I've never recommended or been forced to use Bose, though I've had
some near-Bose experiences.

The problem is that if you don't want narrowly controlled directivity,
the Bose is the only thing around. If you want very wide dispersion and
you don't want the upper midrange honk from typical horn systems, you
get the Bose because there just isn't anything much else out there.

And the Bose systems sound pretty crappy, but sometimes they are the
only kind of speaker that is the right tool for the job. It's a shame
nobody else seems to make a conventional non-horn non-waveguide loaded
speaker for small room wide-dispersion PA applications.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Good points all, but:

ScotFraser wrote:

Remember that only the B string on a 5 string bass & synths/samplers
are capable of putting out frequencies in that range

Whether it adds to or detracts from your point, I dunno. But there's
plenty of other things in the studio that make sub-sonic sound. Drums
would be the obvious thing, but electric guitars and even the human
voice produce subsonics, especially on consonants. Think about the
signal generated by a guitar pickup just as you pluck a sting with a
pick. That's before the string resonates, and it only goes as fast as
you move the pick. That's some very low frequency stuff going on
there. Even though the pickup and amplifier will have poor response
down there, the pick movement itself is a very large-amplitude motion
relative to a loudly resonating string.

It may very well be that the music is better off without this content,
but it's definitely there.

ulysses

You don't need any help from the suits to wreck the album. Have you
considered writing some songs? Kids want it huge? No, kids want it
catchy. Somebody compared your track to a video game soundtrack but I
don't think that's accurate because I can still remember the music from
most of the decent video games I've played. I listened to your track
30 seconds ago and there's nothing besides the unpleasant tone of the
synthesizer and the crappy "snare" sound that stuck in my mind.

Oh, but the sub-bass did make my computer speaker buzz annoyingly. Why
do you want to know what people with powerful bass setups think if
you're worried about what the kids want? Do you know any kids with
decent stereos? Most kids think that the sound of a Honda Civic's
trunk rattling apart is called "bass" and that a "nice system" comes
from CompUSA for $15.

ulysses


Robba T wrote:

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at

http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...%20is%20Lame.M
P3

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

A real world study would be trying to speak in a helicopter without a
mic/headset. You can see somebody speaking, and you can generally hear that
words are being said, but the frequency response is so overwhelmingly
covered up by massive amounts of low end that you can't determine what is
being said. Some new TNN car show with young guys and their hopped up
Hondas started doing the same thing with the first couple of their shows.
Music wasn't too loud but the bass was too present and you couldn't hear
them talking. Only took a couple of shows before some reasonably competent
engineer put a stop to that. Now you can hear that they actually know what
they are talking about.

This young gentleman needs to know what he's talking about - with his music,
and let someone with real competency in audio do the work right.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote in message
...
Good points all, but:

ScotFraser wrote:

Remember that only the B string on a 5 string bass & synths/samplers
are capable of putting out frequencies in that range

Whether it adds to or detracts from your point, I dunno. But there's
plenty of other things in the studio that make sub-sonic sound. Drums
would be the obvious thing, but electric guitars and even the human
voice produce subsonics, especially on consonants. Think about the
signal generated by a guitar pickup just as you pluck a sting with a
pick. That's before the string resonates, and it only goes as fast as
you move the pick. That's some very low frequency stuff going on
there. Even though the pickup and amplifier will have poor response
down there, the pick movement itself is a very large-amplitude motion
relative to a loudly resonating string.

It may very well be that the music is better off without this content,
but it's definitely there.

ulysses

But there's
plenty of other things in the studio that make sub-sonic sound. Drums
would be the obvious thing,

Any 30Hz I've ever gotten from a kick drum was a wind pop from putting the mic
too close to the front hole. 50 & 60Hz yeah, but not 30Hz as any realistic kind
of fundamental. I would think tuning down anywhere near that low would be
miserably flappy.

but electric guitars and even the human
voice produce subsonics, especially on consonants.

30Hz from a vocal track would be a breath pop & not something I would consider
useful.

Think about the
signal generated by a guitar pickup just as you pluck a sting with a
pick. That's before the string resonates, and it only goes as fast as
you move the pick. That's some very low frequency stuff going on
there.

This is noise that sucks headroom out of a track while contributing no pitch
information.

It may very well be that the music is better off without this content,
but it's definitely there.


Yeah, this is all stuff I consider noise, & a hindrance to clarity. That's what
high pass filters are for.


Scott Fraser

Still, I've never recommended or been forced to use Bose,

I have, & it's not a pretty thing. Those are some lame ass piece of **** PA
speakers.


Scott Fraser

And the Bose systems sound pretty crappy, but sometimes they are the
only kind of speaker that is the right tool for the job. It's a shame
nobody else seems to make a conventional non-horn non-waveguide loaded
speaker for small room wide-dispersion PA applications.

You can get wide dispersion from just about every line array available, with
the added benefit of reaching somewhat beyond 10 feet. My biggest complaint
with the Bose speakers is they are so pitifully short throw that you can't
really get any mid to high clarity beyond a very few rows of seats. They just
fall off ridiculously & leave the majority of the rooms where I've had to use
them in the diffuse field.

Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

Any 30Hz I've ever gotten from a kick drum was a wind pop from
putting the mic too close to the front hole. 50 & 60Hz yeah, but not
30Hz as any realistic kind of fundamental. I would think tuning down
anywhere near that low would be miserably flappy.

Ever record a 24" (or larger) bass drum? When I first moved from my
20" Pearl kit to my drummer's 24" Rogers, it took us a while to figure
out why we weren't getting any low end. It turns out we WERE getting
low end, but with the larger drum tuned to the same "feel," the pitch
was so much lower that we couldn't hear it. When we tuned up the head
til the fundamental was where it should be, we were pleasantly
surprised to find a springier, more lively kick drum whose beater head
is lasting a whole lot longer. But if we WANTED that extreme low-end,
we could certainly have it. But even with the fundamental up around
60Hz, there's still the initial "pluck" that's a lower pitch. Sure,
the beater slap is midrange, but there's some very LF happening there
too.

30Hz from a vocal track would be a breath pop & not something I would
consider useful. This is noise that sucks headroom out of a track
while contributing no pitch information. Yeah, this is all stuff I
consider noise, & a hindrance to clarity. That's what high pass
filters are for.

Like I said, I'm not calling it music. But it's there.

ulysses

Dont own Bose, don't use Bose, but from the very first time I've heard
about them, the story was aleays about intentionaly being "non
direct", but using reflections instead. So, if Bose speakers are of
poor directivity while people like the sound, they've accomplished
their goals while remaining honest in their adverts. Isn't it?

Vladan
www.geocities.com/vla_dan_l
www.mp3.com/lesly , www.mp3.com/shook , www.mp3.com/lesly2
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

Somebody compared your track to a video game soundtrack but I
don't think that's accurate because I can still remember the music from
most of the decent video games I've played.

Decent video games, OK. But I said *cheap* mid-90's video game. Sound blaster
General Midi stuff, the works.

Erwin Timmerman

ScotFraser wrote:
But there's
plenty of other things in the studio that make sub-sonic sound. Drums
would be the obvious thing,

Any 30Hz I've ever gotten from a kick drum was a wind pop from putting the mic
too close to the front hole. 50 & 60Hz yeah, but not 30Hz as any realistic kind
of fundamental. I would think tuning down anywhere near that low would be
miserably flappy.

How about a real bass drum, the sort that is taller than the performer? These
should be tuned at least an octave lower than a normal rock kick.

Tympani feel like they are really, really low, but it turns out they really
aren't all that low.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

ScotFraser wrote:
And the Bose systems sound pretty crappy, but sometimes they are the
only kind of speaker that is the right tool for the job. It's a shame
nobody else seems to make a conventional non-horn non-waveguide loaded
speaker for small room wide-dispersion PA applications.

You can get wide dispersion from just about every line array available, with
the added benefit of reaching somewhat beyond 10 feet.

Is it just me? I don't get the whole line array thing. The whole comb
filtering issue just seems too severe on all of the ones I have heard.

Yes, they are easy to set up. Yes, they can do a decent job in just
about any room and they are very easy to control after being set up rather
than having to fiddle with placement. That makes them a great choice for
a touring group.

But I just don't get the huge amount of hype over them, and why they are
being dropped in everywhere.

My biggest complaint
with the Bose speakers is they are so pitifully short throw that you can't
really get any mid to high clarity beyond a very few rows of seats. They just
fall off ridiculously & leave the majority of the rooms where I've had to use
them in the diffuse field.

That's a GOOD thing in a small room. That's basically what the wide
dispersion gets for you. In a big hall, it's a horrible idea.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Erwin Timmerman" wrote in message
...

I usually listen the whole song through waiting for the catch/sudden
change/whatever it is that is coming. Because, I tell myself, it can't be
like this the *whole* song through, can it? Alas, most of the time I find
out
that it can. I must be the only one who is bored with 5 minutes of vague
8
bar repeats, or 4 minutes of a good riff played over and over and over
*and
over*..

Well, why didn't you say so! I got this new thing I'm trying where you
repeat the first eight bars, but for the third eight you do something
entirely different, but then you go back on the fourth eight and -- get
this -- do the whole thing over again with the same progression, but you
vary the melody!

I think it could catch on.

dtk

Ever record a 24" (or larger) bass drum?

Before heavy metal was identified as a genre, there was a heavy metal trio I
did a lot of recording with. They bought a 26" or 28" marching bass drum, which
sounded just awesome in the room. Never quite got that sound through the mics,
though. It always seemed that to get any kind of clarity to tape we had to tune
up a bit so it didn't flap so much. The drummer used a wood beater, so slap was
there alright. I would have liked to have had access to better mics too, but
this was late 70's.

Like I said, I'm not calling it music. But it's there.
ulysses

I gather the original poster wants to incorporate all that, just for effect,
with what appears to be little concern for arrangement & production matters. Oh
well, it's a big world, & there are a lot of things we don't understand.

Scott Fraser

How about a real bass drum, the sort that is taller than the performer?
These
should be tuned at least an octave lower than a normal rock kick.

Orchestral bass drums definitely move air, in the room AND on tape, especially
with a nice flat omni small diaphragm. The niceness of the orchestral bass drum
is that it isn't damped as soon as it's hit, like a rock kick is.

Tympani feel like they are really, really low, but it turns out they really
aren't all that low.

To clearly hear the pitches, since they are providing harmonic underpinning, I
think of them as more midrange instruments, & sometimes EQ in that direction if
they aren't particularly clear in the hall.



Scott Fraser

Is the buzz in the recording? I haven't heard it on other things on my computer system (NHT 1.1's, Arcam integrated amp); and I don't hear it with nothing playing.

I hear bass in this song, but I don't see what's so special about it. The speakers roll off a lot, of course (approx. 6" woofers) but I'm not getting any intimations of super-low bass. Musically, what purpose would it serve?

The music sends mixed messages. The intro (wind sound) and beginning of the main material tell me that a more or less normal song or instrumental is coming, one that is going to have a melody and harmony and a rhetorical shape that will climax in the usual way. But the textural change about 20% of the way through--when I'm already impatient for the song to *happen* already--undercuts those expectations. Rhetorically speaking, it is a backward move: it says, "No, it's going to be longer before anything interesting happens." Moreover, the new texture it introduces is very "atomized," with each component sound occupying its own virtual acoustic. (Is that a drum machine repeating that slap or slam endlessly? It has reverb around it but other things don't.) This gives the feeling of something *less* developed than what preceded it, not more developed. I listened only as far as the middle, but by that time only one further new thing had happened, and the song seemed to be developi
ng into a "tour" or "catalog" of various textures. That's fine if you like it--the composer gets to do whatever pleased him--but if you want listeners to be enthusiastic and you don't provide them with something to move the body (even covertly), nor with melody (none had appeared by the 1/2-way point), nor with harmonic interest, so that you've essentially given up all of musics "armory" except sonority; and if what you do provide is broken up and internally inconsistent in its "acoustics"---then I suggest that you face a hard task.

Of course I'm not your intended listener, but music's tools for moving listeners--whether to tears or to buying albums, or both--are the same no matter what the type of music.

I know you didn't ask, but what can you do? Everyone's got an opinion.

James Boyk

Dont own Bose, don't use Bose, but from the very first time I've heard
about them, the story was aleays about intentionaly being "non
direct", but using reflections instead. So, if Bose speakers are of
poor directivity while people like the sound, they've accomplished
their goals while remaining honest in their adverts. Isn't it?

Truth in advertising, yes. Sounds like ****, yes.



Scott Fraser

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
ScotFraser wrote:
And the Bose systems sound pretty crappy, but sometimes
they are the only kind of speaker that is the right tool for the job.
It's a shame nobody else seems to make a conventional non-horn
non-waveguide loaded speaker for small room wide-dispersion
PA applications.

You can get wide dispersion from just about every line array available,
with the added benefit of reaching somewhat beyond 10 feet.

Is it just me? I don't get the whole line array thing. The whole comb
filtering issue just seems too severe on all of the ones I have heard.
snip

So you're saying that it's not possible to get the drivers close enough
together to simulate a true line radiator? How close would be close
enough? Or at what frequency does comb filtering become a problem?
Are there any true ribbon or pseudo-ribbon speakers that are suitable
for PA or sound reinforcement use? Thanks. (I know it's off-topic.)

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:28:03 -0400, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

Are there any true ribbon or pseudo-ribbon speakers that are suitable
for PA or sound reinforcement use? Thanks. (I know it's off-topic.)

Not what you're asking, but Madisound has the Vifa TC14WG69-08
on sale for 14.50. Comes from the factory with flatted sides
on the front flange, giving 5.05" center-center.

http://www.madisound.com/sale.html

Could be fun. Don't everybody buy 'em all up until I
can get some to try.

Chris Hornbeck

Is it just me?

Maybe.

I don't get the whole line array thing. The whole comb
filtering issue just seems too severe on all of the ones I have heard. Yes,
they are easy to set up. Yes, they can do a decent job in just
about any room and they are very easy to control after being set up rather
than having to fiddle with placement. That makes them a great choice for
a touring group.

The fact of uniform frequency response side to side over a very wide angle,
plus uniform response (when they're done right) from front to back of hall is
what makes them so appealing. I've stood maybe 130 feet back in a shed & heard
no significant loss of highs nor SPL relative to the front rows. This was with
a Vertec system.

But I just don't get the huge amount of hype over them, and why they are
being dropped in everywhere.

They do what they claim. The hype is just marketing frenzy.

That's a GOOD thing in a small room. That's basically what the wide
dispersion gets for you. In a big hall, it's a horrible idea.

Guess I've never been in a room small enough for Bose's to work well. What
would that be? 20' wide by 10' deep?




Scott Fraser

(Robba T) wrote in message . com...
Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.
if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds? its at
http://www.permanentmarks.com/INTERN...0is%20Lame.MP3

Not even an army of suits could wreck that beauty- the snare and
the synth bass possess unearthly powers that crush the weak under
their feet like eggshells. Silly engineers, not wanting to pump out
the bass...

we're getting studio time next week here in LA at Zeriah- and
Mario
Elten will be helping engineer. he's been arguing with us about the
bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up. Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

JD

(Robba T) wrote in
om:

Ive heard if you insert some 30hz levels you can pump out the bass.

Well... Just about everything in normal music is above 30Hz.

if anyone has a really powerful bass setup can you tell me how this
mp3 sounds?

* Listening with the KOSS UR-30 foldable headphones I use with my laptop.
I've seen quite a lot of kids using those with walkmans, and they've got
quite a lot of bass for a pair of consumer headphones. I can hear most of
the bass, but it feels like some of it is missing. Of course, that doesn't
sound very good.

* Listening with the small Sony earphones I use with my MP3 player and my
PDA. Those are probably more common than the KOSS phones and more typical
for phones used with walkmans. They've got quite a lot of bass for a pair
of small not too expensive consumer earphones, but of course not nearly as
much as the KOSS phones or a sub. They've also got a lot more high end
than the KOSS phones. Now I'm missing more of the bass, and everything
sound really harsh. Not nice. If I listen to the piece twice with these
phones I'll get a bad headache so I won't do that. Actually, I'm not sure
I'll let it play completely even once because that might still give me a
headache.

* Right now my fiancee is sleeping, so I won't listen on anything but
phones. I might, just might, listen once to this stuff on my stereo as
well. The stereo has a bunch of horn speakers, and the two big basses gives
a lot of low end bass. Maybe I'll get to hear all the bass that way. The
stereo's also got speakers to give a lot of high end so maybe it'll end up
giving me a lot of bass and a headache.

bass. he doesnt understand kids want it huge. but thats really whats
up.

Judging from what I hear when some young guy in a car drives past, kids
wants a heavy kick drum and loud bass. You haven't got a heavy kick, and
loud bass is not the same thing as real low frequency bass.

Help back me up with some tech knowhow so the suits dont wreck the
album, eh?

What is your purpose in having a real engineer helping you with this stuff?

I'm a hobbyist and I've done pieces where you'll need a good bass setup to
hear it correctly. That's fine, as I don't try to sell the stuff and don't
really care if it sounds good on most systems. I'm doing it just for fun
for my own sake and if I manage to get it to sound ok on my own system I'm
happy.

If that's what you're doing as well, do whatever you like with the bass,
but I can't understand why you'd use a real engineer if that's the case.

You do seem to want a sound the "kids" want, wich might indicate that you
want other prople to listen to it on their systems. If that's what you want
you might also want it to sound good on other peoples systems. if you want
it to sound good on other peoples system a good idea could be to make sure
that at least most systems will be able to reproduce at least most of the
bass.

Have you considering actually listen to what the angineer are trying to
say? You know, he could have actual reasons for arguing with you about the
bass. Personally I feel that if the engineer did *not* argue with you about
the bass you should get another engineer.

And don't just listen to what he says about the bass. Listen to all he
says. Judging from the MP3 you do need the input from someone else about
the sound. You could even try out what the engineer suggests and see for
yourselves what you think of it.

If, after understanding the engineer's arguments, you still want to do it
your way, then go ahead and do it. It's your music, you decide, but it can
be better to do an informed decicion rather than an uninformed one.

As for tech knowhow, I doubt you'll get any such backup. *Tech* knowhow is
what the engineer has, and the reason you want an engineer to help you.
Knowing what the kids want is more like *market* knowhow.

/Jonas

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"pH" wrote in message


Well, at any rate, I'd like to think those guys knew what they were
doing, and didn't go to that incredible effort when just a couple of
boxes would've done the same job. Either way - I'd find it very
difficult to pass up an opportunity to give it a listen (sit back and
watch Terminator 3 in there... g).

Their approach was no doubt conditioned by their preference for tubes.

OK, I'll take a shot at that statement. Here are some (hopefully rational
and hopefully true) reasons why those big-ass concrete horns + rinky-dink
amp just might work quite nicely.

If you can raise the efficiency of the speaker by impedance matching
(horns), you reduce the maximum required driver excursion. Reducing Xmax
allows a few things to happen:

1) Doppler modulation of higher frequencies as the cone whips back and
forth is reduced.

2) You can switch from an overhung voice coil to an underhung voice coil
and gain more efficiency. See next two points...

3) Because you're applying so much less power to the voice coils, the
ratio of magnet flux to voice coil flux can be much higher, resulting in
less modulation of the field on the voice coil gap.

4) Because much less power is going into the voice coil, it runs much
cooler and thermal compression effects are reduced.

The downsides are...

1) Wife acceptance factor is low.

2) It costs more.

3) Time aligning the subs with the rest of the system is difficult
unless you use digital crossovers, in which case it's trivial.

So, in summary, Bose won't be selling these beasties in the near future,
but if you don't mind the steep climb up the cost curve, these just may
sound better.

Here's my opinion as a humble consumer- the most impressive bass
tracks I've heard were ones that attacked a whole range of bass
frequencies, not just one that was very low. Say if you have a thump
beat happening, you don't just want it at 30 Hz. You want good
representation of the harmonics at 60 and 120, as well (maybe even
including some odd-order harmonics). You can get even more creative
and do some modulation of higher frequencies to further accentuate the
presence of the fundamental. Not only will it make the thump fuller
sounding, you can also use the harmonics to enhance the attack of the
thump. Lastly, once you are attacking a range of bass frequencies you
can be somewhat assured that the thump will be represented on
virtually anyones system in some way.

A bit off-topic, but anyone ever notice the bass soundtrack for the
Lord of the Rings films? They seem to go deeper, louder, and fuller
than a lot of smash and crash films. Are they originating their bass
sound effects in a different or newer way? That's what I wonder.