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On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:24:51 +0100, Fritz Wuehler
wrote: On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi snip You know Andre ...the only difference between you and a bucket of **** is the bucket. KPLONK. |
#2
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On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles
PLONK !!!
X-post !!! "Fritz Wuehler" schreef in bericht ll.eu.org... On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi There is a difference between a music lover and an audiophile that reflects on the sort of hi-fi equipment they buy. Hi-fi for music lovers was well described by Peter Walker as providing a window on the concert hall, the closest approach to the original in your living room. There are a lot of technical problems, still, with achieving anything like the ideal. That is why we say high-fidelity and not just fidelity. The important thing about trying to reproduce the original performance in your living room is that there is an objective standard, the original performance itself. This implies constant concert going. One of the great problems with the classical Walker approach is that the modern living room is not the size of a concert hall or even the sort of library or drawing room of a grand house in which live recordings of chamber music is often made. (A recording studio can be any size but many are much closer to the rooms of real people. This is however a side issue, dealt with by Mick in the thread Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers.) Audiophiles have essentially given up on the window on the concert hall. They have gradually taken upon themselves to reproduce their music the way they want it, without reference to any original. Since they are now in the vast majority, a whole trade of manufacturers has sprung up to cater for them. Over the years bass extension has become the dominant criterion of goodness of loudspeakers to those in this group, and thus for the manufacturers catering for them. Those designers who are still concert goers and so retain a connection with the music lovers sell their work into this market as boutique brands, as fashion goods. Their good gear is then copied by strictly commercial parties who hardly ever, and in some cases never, see the inside of a concert hall. Such people add more of what is desired by their market, which is bass (or in an amp power), and eventually the entire experience, in comparison with the concert hall, is distorted. Very expensive speakers with boomy one note bass acquire a faithful following. Since there is no objective standard, fashion and hype become the norm. How much you spent and how much brand recognition your hi-fi has becomes much more important than how it actually sounds. Fourth and fifth carbons of once reasonable designs are sold at vastly inflated prices by designers who have no connection to the original music, no philosophy of music reproduction, only the desire to make a buck. Some of their speakers are better built copies of other peoples speakers, but the premium is justified by more bass, not more faithful reproduction. Their customers are easily spotted by having spent vastly more money on their amp and speakers and sources than on their collection of music. They think the brand name and the cost gives them superiority, or an entree into cultured society. (A retired brother keeper a month or so ago wrote a letter to these newsgroups which she intended as a putdown to me: it consisted of the brand names of about nine pricey audio components she owns.) A subbranch of these deluded people becomes religious about the particular experience of their preferred brand and angry when one points out that the sonic output bears little relationship to live music. Or perhaps they are just trying to protect the trade-in value of snake oil. Below I reprint part of the correspondence which gave rise to these more general observations. Andre Jute Andre Jute wrote in the thread: Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi Let me say, first of all, Paul, that it is your money. You can spend it on any speakers you want, including Turner Audio speakers. It is also your soul. If you want to make a religion of the turneroids speakers, you will burn alone for it, so it is none of our business. However, you must allow the rest of us too to make our own choices. And when you put your reasons on the public record in such abrasively personal tones, we are entitled to inspect them closely. WHAT YOU HEARD Your description of the turneroid speakers is perfectly fair, from your viewpoint. However, what we hear you telling us is that there is this toaster made in a Canberra electrical repair shop that toasts the bread evenly but not quite equally brown on both sides. All right, okay, so thats what toasters mostly do, they toast bread, and even common toasters toast evenly, and to get one that toasts equally brown on both sides may cost a bit more. But you also tell us this Canberra repair shop toaster, which doesnt even toast evenly brown on both sides, costs an enormous premium. And the maker of the toaster tells us he sells three a year. Only in audiophool land is an enormous premium for a run of the mill product justified by the fact that it is exclusive, for which the English translation is: Everyone else is too smart to waste their money. And then you get abusive when I state the obvious. Ouch, man. Since you dont like my first attempt to explain the reasoning to you, here is the neddy version (1): WHAT HI-FI DOES High-fidelity audio equipment attempts to reproduce the sound of live music in the concert hall faithfully in your home. It has not yet succeeded or we would not need the qualifier, high, we would use only the single definitive word, fidelity. WHAT CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH IT Music is an art form, by definition a cultured activity in its creation, performance and appreciation. It is a cultivated taste. Those who have not cultivated the taste cannot judge whether the performance in the concert hall is in fact faithfully reproduced by the speakers in your home, or to be precise, since we are speaking of an ever-closer approach to fidelity, a journey rather than a fait accompli, more faithfully than by the next speaker. Those who have not cultivated the taste therefore have no business pretending to be makers of loudspeakers, because they are certain to take backwards, away from fidelity, rather than closer to it. WHAT TURNERS LACK OF CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH LOUDSPEAKERS Your friend Patrick Turner has no culture. He behaves like a yob. We know he rarely if ever attends concerts. We know his CD collection is a derisory sixty discs. He is not a music lover. How can Turner possibly judge and develop loudspeakers that will satisfy the criteria of music lovers? THE MAKERS OF GOOD SPEAKERS Mr Gilbert Briggs, founder of Wharfedale and at the helm throughout their glory days, was a pianist of some standing and a constant concertgoer. Mr Peter Walker of Quad did not just attend concerts, he put them on in the Royal Albert Hall. The makers of good speakers, and amps for that matter, are not merely concert goers and engineers, they also think about music and its reproduction, and have arrived at a philosophy, and it is by the philosophy that they add value as much as by their engineering and cultivated taste to know what works artistically as well as mechanically. SO, HOW DO THE TURNEROID SPEAKERS WORK Your friend Patrick Turner has no such philosophy. He has a craft outlook. He sees something, copies it, and claims he makes it better than the original, and therefore it should be worth vastly more. That may be a way to make second-rate jewelry, though the discriminating will still patronize the original craftsman rather than the copyist, and will know the nouveau riche and non-kulturny pretenders precisely by the fact that they take the copyist at his own hyped-up valuation. THE OUTCOME Because Turner is not a music lover and not a cultured person in general, he has no reference for his speakers except other speakers he heard. Because as a consequence of not being a music lover he has no philosophy of reproduction, the outcome, at vast cost, is a me-too speaker, a possibly better made lowest common denominator speaker for which a premium is charged, perversely because no one with any discrimination wants it! And why dont the discriminating want it? Because no value has been added. And no value has been added because the turneroid has no culture. The circle is complete. You are in effect asked to pay a premium for a pretty common speaker because its maker, Turner, is a rude yob! Im sorry, James, but there are literally hundreds of makes of speakers that do exactly what the turneroid speakers do, at a lower cost. In the case of the Turner Audio amplifiers, there are hundreds of makes that do exactly what the turneroid amps do, at vastly lower cost. If you dont want your religion ridiculed, dont display it in public. Andre Jute (1) Neddy is an all-purpose fool to whom things must be explained slowly and repeatedly. |
#3
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For sure !!
BUT ... Does the same perfomer(s) sounds the same when he (she) performs at Royal Albert Hall, at Carnegie Hall or .... in my (300 sqft) living room ? Certainly not ! Do all Bosendorfer sound the same ? Certainly not ! Does a Stenway sounds different than a Yamaha ? Certainly yes ! Wich is the best ? I don't know ! and don't really matter as long I've pleasure to listen to ! Make your hears happy and forgot why there are. Yves P.S. I doubt to be able to cook as Troisgros nor (sigh) Bernard Loiseau, but I cook and have pleasure with ;-) "Ronald" wrote in message ... PLONK !!! X-post !!! "Fritz Wuehler" schreef in bericht ll.eu.org... On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi There is a difference between a music lover and an audiophile that reflects on the sort of hi-fi equipment they buy. Hi-fi for music lovers was well described by Peter Walker as providing a window on the concert hall, the closest approach to the original in your living room. There are a lot of technical problems, still, with achieving anything like the ideal. That is why we say high-fidelity and not just fidelity. The important thing about trying to reproduce the original performance in your living room is that there is an objective standard, the original performance itself. This implies constant concert going. One of the great problems with the classical Walker approach is that the modern living room is not the size of a concert hall or even the sort of library or drawing room of a grand house in which live recordings of chamber music is often made. (A recording studio can be any size but many are much closer to the rooms of real people. This is however a side issue, dealt with by Mick in the thread Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers.) Audiophiles have essentially given up on the window on the concert hall. They have gradually taken upon themselves to reproduce their music the way they want it, without reference to any original. Since they are now in the vast majority, a whole trade of manufacturers has sprung up to cater for them. Over the years bass extension has become the dominant criterion of goodness of loudspeakers to those in this group, and thus for the manufacturers catering for them. Those designers who are still concert goers and so retain a connection with the music lovers sell their work into this market as boutique brands, as fashion goods. Their good gear is then copied by strictly commercial parties who hardly ever, and in some cases never, see the inside of a concert hall. Such people add more of what is desired by their market, which is bass (or in an amp power), and eventually the entire experience, in comparison with the concert hall, is distorted. Very expensive speakers with boomy one note bass acquire a faithful following. Since there is no objective standard, fashion and hype become the norm. How much you spent and how much brand recognition your hi-fi has becomes much more important than how it actually sounds. Fourth and fifth carbons of once reasonable designs are sold at vastly inflated prices by designers who have no connection to the original music, no philosophy of music reproduction, only the desire to make a buck. Some of their speakers are better built copies of other peoples speakers, but the premium is justified by more bass, not more faithful reproduction. Their customers are easily spotted by having spent vastly more money on their amp and speakers and sources than on their collection of music. They think the brand name and the cost gives them superiority, or an entree into cultured society. (A retired brother keeper a month or so ago wrote a letter to these newsgroups which she intended as a putdown to me: it consisted of the brand names of about nine pricey audio components she owns.) A subbranch of these deluded people becomes religious about the particular experience of their preferred brand and angry when one points out that the sonic output bears little relationship to live music. Or perhaps they are just trying to protect the trade-in value of snake oil. Below I reprint part of the correspondence which gave rise to these more general observations. Andre Jute Andre Jute wrote in the thread: Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi Let me say, first of all, Paul, that it is your money. You can spend it on any speakers you want, including Turner Audio speakers. It is also your soul. If you want to make a religion of the turneroids speakers, you will burn alone for it, so it is none of our business. However, you must allow the rest of us too to make our own choices. And when you put your reasons on the public record in such abrasively personal tones, we are entitled to inspect them closely. WHAT YOU HEARD Your description of the turneroid speakers is perfectly fair, from your viewpoint. However, what we hear you telling us is that there is this toaster made in a Canberra electrical repair shop that toasts the bread evenly but not quite equally brown on both sides. All right, okay, so thats what toasters mostly do, they toast bread, and even common toasters toast evenly, and to get one that toasts equally brown on both sides may cost a bit more. But you also tell us this Canberra repair shop toaster, which doesnt even toast evenly brown on both sides, costs an enormous premium. And the maker of the toaster tells us he sells three a year. Only in audiophool land is an enormous premium for a run of the mill product justified by the fact that it is exclusive, for which the English translation is: Everyone else is too smart to waste their money. And then you get abusive when I state the obvious. Ouch, man. Since you dont like my first attempt to explain the reasoning to you, here is the neddy version (1): WHAT HI-FI DOES High-fidelity audio equipment attempts to reproduce the sound of live music in the concert hall faithfully in your home. It has not yet succeeded or we would not need the qualifier, high, we would use only the single definitive word, fidelity. WHAT CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH IT Music is an art form, by definition a cultured activity in its creation, performance and appreciation. It is a cultivated taste. Those who have not cultivated the taste cannot judge whether the performance in the concert hall is in fact faithfully reproduced by the speakers in your home, or to be precise, since we are speaking of an ever-closer approach to fidelity, a journey rather than a fait accompli, more faithfully than by the next speaker. Those who have not cultivated the taste therefore have no business pretending to be makers of loudspeakers, because they are certain to take backwards, away from fidelity, rather than closer to it. WHAT TURNERS LACK OF CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH LOUDSPEAKERS Your friend Patrick Turner has no culture. He behaves like a yob. We know he rarely if ever attends concerts. We know his CD collection is a derisory sixty discs. He is not a music lover. How can Turner possibly judge and develop loudspeakers that will satisfy the criteria of music lovers? THE MAKERS OF GOOD SPEAKERS Mr Gilbert Briggs, founder of Wharfedale and at the helm throughout their glory days, was a pianist of some standing and a constant concertgoer. Mr Peter Walker of Quad did not just attend concerts, he put them on in the Royal Albert Hall. The makers of good speakers, and amps for that matter, are not merely concert goers and engineers, they also think about music and its reproduction, and have arrived at a philosophy, and it is by the philosophy that they add value as much as by their engineering and cultivated taste to know what works artistically as well as mechanically. SO, HOW DO THE TURNEROID SPEAKERS WORK Your friend Patrick Turner has no such philosophy. He has a craft outlook. He sees something, copies it, and claims he makes it better than the original, and therefore it should be worth vastly more. That may be a way to make second-rate jewelry, though the discriminating will still patronize the original craftsman rather than the copyist, and will know the nouveau riche and non-kulturny pretenders precisely by the fact that they take the copyist at his own hyped-up valuation. THE OUTCOME Because Turner is not a music lover and not a cultured person in general, he has no reference for his speakers except other speakers he heard. Because as a consequence of not being a music lover he has no philosophy of reproduction, the outcome, at vast cost, is a me-too speaker, a possibly better made lowest common denominator speaker for which a premium is charged, perversely because no one with any discrimination wants it! And why dont the discriminating want it? Because no value has been added. And no value has been added because the turneroid has no culture. The circle is complete. You are in effect asked to pay a premium for a pretty common speaker because its maker, Turner, is a rude yob! Im sorry, James, but there are literally hundreds of makes of speakers that do exactly what the turneroid speakers do, at a lower cost. In the case of the Turner Audio amplifiers, there are hundreds of makes that do exactly what the turneroid amps do, at vastly lower cost. If you dont want your religion ridiculed, dont display it in public. Andre Jute (1) Neddy is an all-purpose fool to whom things must be explained slowly and repeatedly. |
#4
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You know Andre ...the only difference between you and a bucket of **** is the bucket. KPLONK. ** The above nameless troll is one of the vilest pieces of excrement on usenet. He lives to destroy the truth on any subject. .......... Phil |
#5
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Hi RATs!
There are no music lovers nor audiophiles. "There is only you and me, and brother, can't you see, this is not the way to put an end to war." The human brain imagines knowledge, and then pretends it has some, or all It sometimes acts like no one else has any. Insults are for those unhappy people who feel threatened by their own humanity. Music is for us unhappy people who feel joy in our own humanity. Play in whatever park suits your current mood. Happy Ears! Al Alan J. Marcy Phoenix, AZ PWC/mystic/Earhead |