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#1
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consistent tv audio levels
Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if
anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and how it is enforced. Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio volume? How is it done? This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. Thanks, Rick |
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#2
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R Krizman wrote:
Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and how it is enforced. Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio volume? How is it done? Hopefully there is a guy riding gains in master control as well, but there are a vast number of AGC devices in the airchain. This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. It starts with tape level standards and transmission standards and then it continues with training operators to keep an eye on levels. And then the local affiliate squashes it a couple times and then the cable company runs it all through some crappy AGC unit and blows it all to hell anyway. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#3
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#5
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Solve the problem yourself.
Get an RNC and put it between your TV Cable or Satellite box and your home theatre. Set it up in super nice mode and forget it. Neither the tv stations nor the cable or satellite people give a damn about levels so you gotta do it yourself. BRBR Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things. I don't have any control over the satellites or cable distributors, but I'd like to see the network itself put out a consistent audio level. I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster? Thanks, Rick |
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#6
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"R Krizman" wrote ...
Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things. I don't have any control over the satellites or cable distributors, but I'd like to see the network itself put out a consistent audio level. I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster? Yikes. Buy THEM an RNC? How motivated are they? Do they have any experienced audio people working on the project? OTOH, there is always post-production processing. :-( |
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#7
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#8
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Opps. As I was saying, if you have "all in one" micpre compressor unit
(like a Symmetrix) set up in say a voiceover booth, make sure they end up in the line inputs of any mixers they may end up at. You'd be surprised how often a Junior engineer thinks plugging them into a micpre input is fine, as long as you engage the "pad". Makes for a very thin hissy sound you will recognize very quickly after a while. So generally you need might go over the facility blueprints, follow the signal flow and make sure levels match everywhere, and that guys use the proper procedures who do any recording. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Audioist / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#9
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This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O |
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#10
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R Krizman wrote:
I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster? In a perfect world, there is a standard accepted way of working. Everyone sets tones to -20dBFS on digital gear, 0 dB on the meters on analogue gear, and everything is referenced the same. Machine operators ride gains to keep levels steady. The operator in master control rides gain to keep levels steady. This used to be what you'd see everywhere. In the real world, everybody sticks AVC on everything and then squashes the crap out of it. The RNC is actually pretty effective as an AVC box. Needless to say, when the inside plant levels are all over the place going into an AVC box at the end of the chain, the S/N is variable and seldom optimal. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#11
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Thanks guys.
I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes of everything. So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the chain? -R |
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#12
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R Krizman wrote:
I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes of everything. So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the chain? More likely the levels on the machine playing the station ID need to be turned up. Or someone needs to be hired to turn some knobs in master control. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#13
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On 2004-11-10, R Krizman wrote:
Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things. I'll start watching TV again if they stop putting constant trademarks on the screen. Worst offenders are a disturbing trend to put *sound* on the aminated graphics. Straw that broke the back was a graphic that obscured some subtitles. Enough is enough. |
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#14
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Ok, lets be serious here.
In the real world today, only the top networks pay enough to have good audio engineers and operators. You'd be surprised how many 8 dollar an hour operators populate radio and television stations and as long as they hear something coming out of ths speakers, it's good enough for them. As Scott says, to compensate for this, the stations add box after box of audio processing, which they claim controls, enhances and makes their signal the loudest on the air. I've found for good level control in both tv and radio, care needs to be taken when recording or doing live shows. A Dourrough Loudness Meter helps and then the signal goes to whatever processing you want to use. An Orban Optimod (they come in radio, tv and internet models, carefully adjusted usually is enough to guarantee adequate level control and to smooth out the differences in the pre-processed audio coming from a variety of sources. Notice, I said CAREFULLY ADJUSTED. Too many people fiddle with knobs and the resulting sound usually can be compared with what a trash compactor does to garbage. On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:22:59 GMT, "John O" wrote: This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O Mike Cleaver Broadcast Services Voice-overs, Newscaster, Engineering and Consulting Vancouver, BC, Canada |
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#15
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"John O" wrote in message .com...
This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with other broadcasters. At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts. On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range. With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to the kitchen or something. |
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#16
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On 2004-11-10, Mike Cleaver wrote:
Ok, lets be serious here. In the real world today, only the top networks pay enough to have good audio engineers and operators. In the real world, there are also extremely talented people working in food service, or not at all. |
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#17
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There is no need to turn up the commercials their higher quality audio with
less noise causes them to appear louder when sent through the compression chain.... a good operator will turn them down. The programs typically have boom mic's or at best laviliers at a distance in a video studio.... The commercials are recorded with professional voice over talent close to the microphones in a much quieter environment. As for the signal chain, I find it hard to understand why stations still live in the past and put the compressor/limiter at the transmitter site..... with a digital stl, it should be at the studio end of the system. Rgds: Eric "Nmm" wrote in message om... "John O" wrote in message .com... This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with other broadcasters. At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts. On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range. With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to the kitchen or something. |
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#18
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There is no need to turn up the commercials their higher quality audio with
less noise causes them to appear louder when sent through the compression chain.... a good operator will turn them down. The programs typically have boom mic's or at best laviliers at a distance in a video studio.... The commercials are recorded with professional voice over talent close to the microphones in a much quieter environment. As for the signal chain, I find it hard to understand why stations still live in the past and put the compressor/limiter at the transmitter site..... with a digital stl, it should be at the studio end of the system. Rgds: Eric "Nmm" wrote in message om... "John O" wrote in message .com... This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with other broadcasters. At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts. On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range. With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to the kitchen or something. |
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#19
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In article ,
says... "John O" wrote in message y.com... This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with other broadcasters. At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts. On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range. With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to the kitchen or something. All Orban Optimod-TV processors include a CBS Loudness Controller, which monitors the subjective loudness at the processor's output and, if it exceeds a preset threshold, turns down the compressor's output so that the subjective loudness is at the Loudness Controller's threshold. The LC threshold is adjustable. If one is observing commercials that are noticeably higher in loudness than the surrounding program material, it probably means that the LC threshold has been set too high. Also, the best that a LC can do is to constrain the loudness to a threshold. If the program material surrounding a commercial is naturally quiet such that it falls below the LC threshold (soft background sounds like rustling leaves and the like), then the commercial will still sound louder than the program. This is inevitable; contextual loudness control is very risky because no sponsor would accept a situation where his commercial was constrained to the same loudness as rustling leaves! BTW, Optimod-TV units generally have a 25 dB gain reduction range and normally operate at 10 dB of gain reduction. Silence gating will move the gain slowly to the "idle gain" value (typically -10 dB) if the program level falls below the gating threshold. Our latest unit, the 8382, also uses window gating that greatly slows the release time as long as the compressor's output level is within a preset offset to the level associated with the threshold of compression. Typically, this offset value is 3 dB -- as long as the compressor's actual output is within 3 dB of the compressor's target output, the compressor's release time will be very slow (typically 0.5 dB/second) and it will not noticeably increase the density of the program material. Our website (www.orban.com) has more info on these units and their operating manuals can be downloaded from ftp.orban.com. Bob Orban |
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#20
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In article ,
says... "John O" wrote in message y.com... This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. What box? One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the receivers. It's just another variable to consider. -John O The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with other broadcasters. At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts. On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range. With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to the kitchen or something. All Orban Optimod-TV processors include a CBS Loudness Controller, which monitors the subjective loudness at the processor's output and, if it exceeds a preset threshold, turns down the compressor's output so that the subjective loudness is at the Loudness Controller's threshold. The LC threshold is adjustable. If one is observing commercials that are noticeably higher in loudness than the surrounding program material, it probably means that the LC threshold has been set too high. Also, the best that a LC can do is to constrain the loudness to a threshold. If the program material surrounding a commercial is naturally quiet such that it falls below the LC threshold (soft background sounds like rustling leaves and the like), then the commercial will still sound louder than the program. This is inevitable; contextual loudness control is very risky because no sponsor would accept a situation where his commercial was constrained to the same loudness as rustling leaves! BTW, Optimod-TV units generally have a 25 dB gain reduction range and normally operate at 10 dB of gain reduction. Silence gating will move the gain slowly to the "idle gain" value (typically -10 dB) if the program level falls below the gating threshold. Our latest unit, the 8382, also uses window gating that greatly slows the release time as long as the compressor's output level is within a preset offset to the level associated with the threshold of compression. Typically, this offset value is 3 dB -- as long as the compressor's actual output is within 3 dB of the compressor's target output, the compressor's release time will be very slow (typically 0.5 dB/second) and it will not noticeably increase the density of the program material. Our website (www.orban.com) has more info on these units and their operating manuals can be downloaded from ftp.orban.com. Bob Orban |
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#21
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"R Krizman" wrote:
I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. It happens in our plant all the time too. Anything that comes out of the Avid suite is too low on-air. Possible solutions include: 1. Persuade the creators of the Station ID's to make them louder. Hey, it could happen... 2. Persuade the operators in the Central Equipment Room to LOOK AT THE ****ING METERS when they transfer stuff into the server. This ain't likely to happen. 3. Remove every single peak meter in the building and replace it with a VU. Nothing has done more to **** up consistency in audio levels across the facility than peak meters. No two people (audio pros excepted) interpret them the same way. VUs minimize the interpretation variability. Just teach all the operators to shoot for the spot where the line turns red. 4. Put a brickwall limiter across the output of the station and push the gain until everything is all the way up all the time. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#22
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"R Krizman" wrote:
I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. It happens in our plant all the time too. Anything that comes out of the Avid suite is too low on-air. Possible solutions include: 1. Persuade the creators of the Station ID's to make them louder. Hey, it could happen... 2. Persuade the operators in the Central Equipment Room to LOOK AT THE ****ING METERS when they transfer stuff into the server. This ain't likely to happen. 3. Remove every single peak meter in the building and replace it with a VU. Nothing has done more to **** up consistency in audio levels across the facility than peak meters. No two people (audio pros excepted) interpret them the same way. VUs minimize the interpretation variability. Just teach all the operators to shoot for the spot where the line turns red. 4. Put a brickwall limiter across the output of the station and push the gain until everything is all the way up all the time. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#23
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"R Krizman" wrote:
Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and how it is enforced. Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio volume? How is it done? This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. Thanks, Rick You're looking at essentially four different kinds of material going to air: 1. Network programming. Usually fed to the station via satellite, sometimes via other proprietary means. There's not really a lot you can do with this stuff. The operators *could* ride the levels during the feed, but it's probably not a good idea -- they'd turn it up while Tony's whispering and wind up with a nasty over when he fires his gun a second later. Not that it matters, the operators don't have time for that anyway. Accept that there will actually be some dynamic range in some dramas (and that some will use companders that make dialog unintelligible) and move on. 2. Commercials. These *can* and *should* be managed. Forget aligning the tone at the top of the tape to ref level. Any post house worth it's salt will "cheat" the reference anyway, so don't trust the tone. Just play the damn spot and set the input levels to something reasonable. 3. In-house programming. This can be taped or live. Either way, there is again opportunity for control here. Align the board so that 0VU = +4dBu, and set the A-D converters so that +4dBu = -20dBFS. Compress early and often. A couple stages of gentle compression usually sound better than a whole bunch all at once. Put all the talent mics into one subgroup with its own compressor, and feed "produced" material (prerecorded music, ID carts, etc.) into a separate pair of groups with their own compression. Periodically send 0VU tone from the control room to master control to make sure the input trim in Master is set properly. In-house shows won't have zero crest factor like the commercials so the commercials will still seem louder, but at least they'll be close. 4. In-house spots. Station IDs, PSAs, promos, etc. The ones Jane did this morning will be 6 dB different than the ones Joe will produce this afternoon. When Jack fills in, his will be at a different level than either Joe's or Jane's spots. All of them will be lower than the commercials. See item (2) above -- listen to them and watch the meters when loading them into the server. There's rarely a compressor anywhere in the path with in-house spots, so there can be a lot of variability within the spot itself (you have no idea how many times I've had to ask an editor if they even had the speakers *ON* when they cut an item -- you wouldn't believe how much level difference they'll ignore, never mind grossly muddy EQ). Ideally, the work flow should involve all in-house spots taking a short detour through audio post before they're loaded, but there often isn't a system in place for that. It may be prudent to have a compressor in the server input chain, but that would require having someone who knows how to use it doing the input. That ain't likely. The best you can hope for is audio guys who'll complain to Engineering about any really bad ones they notice, and take the initiative to clean them up and get them reloaded. Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than before you asked? -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#24
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"R Krizman" wrote:
Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and how it is enforced. Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio volume? How is it done? This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of the box with such erratic levels. Thanks, Rick You're looking at essentially four different kinds of material going to air: 1. Network programming. Usually fed to the station via satellite, sometimes via other proprietary means. There's not really a lot you can do with this stuff. The operators *could* ride the levels during the feed, but it's probably not a good idea -- they'd turn it up while Tony's whispering and wind up with a nasty over when he fires his gun a second later. Not that it matters, the operators don't have time for that anyway. Accept that there will actually be some dynamic range in some dramas (and that some will use companders that make dialog unintelligible) and move on. 2. Commercials. These *can* and *should* be managed. Forget aligning the tone at the top of the tape to ref level. Any post house worth it's salt will "cheat" the reference anyway, so don't trust the tone. Just play the damn spot and set the input levels to something reasonable. 3. In-house programming. This can be taped or live. Either way, there is again opportunity for control here. Align the board so that 0VU = +4dBu, and set the A-D converters so that +4dBu = -20dBFS. Compress early and often. A couple stages of gentle compression usually sound better than a whole bunch all at once. Put all the talent mics into one subgroup with its own compressor, and feed "produced" material (prerecorded music, ID carts, etc.) into a separate pair of groups with their own compression. Periodically send 0VU tone from the control room to master control to make sure the input trim in Master is set properly. In-house shows won't have zero crest factor like the commercials so the commercials will still seem louder, but at least they'll be close. 4. In-house spots. Station IDs, PSAs, promos, etc. The ones Jane did this morning will be 6 dB different than the ones Joe will produce this afternoon. When Jack fills in, his will be at a different level than either Joe's or Jane's spots. All of them will be lower than the commercials. See item (2) above -- listen to them and watch the meters when loading them into the server. There's rarely a compressor anywhere in the path with in-house spots, so there can be a lot of variability within the spot itself (you have no idea how many times I've had to ask an editor if they even had the speakers *ON* when they cut an item -- you wouldn't believe how much level difference they'll ignore, never mind grossly muddy EQ). Ideally, the work flow should involve all in-house spots taking a short detour through audio post before they're loaded, but there often isn't a system in place for that. It may be prudent to have a compressor in the server input chain, but that would require having someone who knows how to use it doing the input. That ain't likely. The best you can hope for is audio guys who'll complain to Engineering about any really bad ones they notice, and take the initiative to clean them up and get them reloaded. Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than before you asked? -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#25
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0500, R Krizman wrote
(in article ): Thanks guys. I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes of everything. So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the chain? -R If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0500, R Krizman wrote
(in article ): Thanks guys. I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes of everything. So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the chain? -R If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked? BRBR Actually that's very helpful. Thanks to all for taking the time to spell some of this out. I think I can do one of two things. Either bring over my own audio "foreign expert" to go through the whole system, or insist that they solve it themselves. In the meantime I think if some of the music is retransferred to its video mate some improvement could be made. -R |
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Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked? BRBR Actually that's very helpful. Thanks to all for taking the time to spell some of this out. I think I can do one of two things. Either bring over my own audio "foreign expert" to go through the whole system, or insist that they solve it themselves. In the meantime I think if some of the music is retransferred to its video mate some improvement could be made. -R |
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Ty Ford wrote:
If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the wrong way. These people really have no idea what they are doing. Rob R. |
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Ty Ford wrote:
If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the wrong way. These people really have no idea what they are doing. Rob R. |
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Ty Ford wrote:
If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the wrong way. These people really have no idea what they are doing. Rob R. It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has only video in it (television). Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. --Wayne -"sounded good to me"- |
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Ty Ford wrote:
If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D channels, even when it's the same show. Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the wrong way. These people really have no idea what they are doing. Rob R. It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has only video in it (television). Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. --Wayne -"sounded good to me"- |
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It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV
has only video in it (television). BRBR You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video without audio is surveillance. -R |
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It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV
has only video in it (television). BRBR You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video without audio is surveillance. -R |
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#39
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On 2004-11-19, Wayne wrote:
It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has only video in it (television). Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. The big picture is that guys who *do* know what they are doing, don't get successful and invest in such a way that they find themselves in control, being the guy who says how it's going to be or else go pound sand. It's a recurring theme in every industry. The people at the bottom are so smart, but never smart enough to get promoted or make enough money to buy a seat on the board or whatever. Meanwhile, these ignorant pinheads manage to do exactly that. Why do you suppose this problem is so commonplace? |
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#40
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On 2004-11-19, Wayne wrote:
It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has only video in it (television). Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. The big picture is that guys who *do* know what they are doing, don't get successful and invest in such a way that they find themselves in control, being the guy who says how it's going to be or else go pound sand. It's a recurring theme in every industry. The people at the bottom are so smart, but never smart enough to get promoted or make enough money to buy a seat on the board or whatever. Meanwhile, these ignorant pinheads manage to do exactly that. Why do you suppose this problem is so commonplace? |
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