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#1
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I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha 1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all." I looked up that wire at Alpha's site - http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm .. Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else tried using this as an interconnect? -Neb |
#2
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nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha 1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all." I looked up that wire at Alpha's site - http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm . Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else tried using this as an interconnect? Yes, I see it (and the Belden equivalent) in installed sound installations all the time. It's cable. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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On Nov 1, 1:40 am, nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha 1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all." I looked up that wire at Alpha's site -http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm . Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else tried using this as an interconnect? -Neb It's a common PVC copper wire, nothing special. I find the teflon stuff to be clearer, like the belden 9182 which is a lan network cable ideal for mic cables with it's 150 ohm impedance and 14 ohms per 1k feet resistance and 8 pf per foot capacitance. Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades |
#4
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On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:
Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. |
#6
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Posted to rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech
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![]() nebulax wrote: I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire. IDIOTS ! |
#7
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"Eeyore" wrote ...
nebulax wrote: I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire. IDIOTS ! Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire? Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine. |
#8
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Richard Crowley wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote ... nebulax wrote: I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire. IDIOTS ! Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire? Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine. Well, I have heard differences between wires, but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important or in any way improvements. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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![]() Richard Crowley wrote: "Eeyore" wrote ... nebulax wrote: I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire. IDIOTS ! Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire? No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper 'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper. Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine. Which didn't really require listening did it ? Unless you do indeed believe in 'magic' things that affect the sound that can't be measured. Aside from peoples brains of course ! ;~) Graham |
#10
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![]() Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important or in any way improvements. Details please. Graham |
#11
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Eeyore wrote:
No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper 'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper. As plausible interpretation of that quote was that the listening tests confirmed that wire A did indeed sound very much the same as wire B so they might as well pick the cheap one. -- Anahata -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827 |
#12
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![]() anahata wrote: Eeyore wrote: No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper 'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper. As plausible interpretation of that quote was that the listening tests confirmed that wire A did indeed sound very much the same as wire B so they might as well pick the cheap one. Only 'very much the same' ? This is the trouble with listening tests. They can be deceptive. Graham |
#13
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![]() wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote: Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life. |
#14
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![]() "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important or in any way improvements. Details please. I must admit that listening tests involving 50 feet runs of 24 gauge versus 12 gauge using some speakers with wild impedance curves were positive for audible differences. OTOH, comparisons of parallel runs of 8 feet of 3/8" steel rebar versus some $300 a pair Monster Cable were negative for audible differences. |
#15
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On Nov 2, 9:31 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote: Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life. yep its just crazy, you may argue that you need a listening test for a mic or a speaker,,, but a hunk of wire!!!!... we can MEASURE any characteristic about a wire that you might care to think of down to the 0.001 dB level out to 1000MHz and beyond. Mark |
#16
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Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem. But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there. I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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![]() "hank alrich" wrote in message ... Arny Krueger wrote: wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote: Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life. Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call bull**** on you. Preference is based on historical knowlege, expectations and the immediate experience. Since only 1/3 of those things actually relate directly to any listening test that any of us might do, all listening tests are therefore highly suspect unless they somehow deal with the other 2/3. I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its own against yours. Anybody can buy equipment, and the more intelligent ones can learn how to properly use it. Thing is, I haven't seen just one post from Williams that says that he actually has any relevant bench test results to share. For example, if one of Williams' mods dropped a mic's A-weighted noise by 6 dB that would be very good news for all of us. Have I missed something? If so, post the relevant URL in google's Usenet archive, or from a web site. |
#18
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Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote: Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life. Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call bull**** on you. I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its own against yours. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#19
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I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. --scott so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. Mark |
#20
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![]() "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Eeyore wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem. But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there. I can believe that this might be true in a specific situation where all of the relevant details are not necessarily knowable. In general, no. I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. For people who don't carry a RG cable characteristics table around in their heads, RG 174 is micro coax. The center conductor is about 24 gauge. DCR of pure copper 24 gauge is about 2.5 ohms per 100 feet. It makes pretty crappy speaker wire, but tell that to Radio Shack!. ;-) IME the DCR of copper-clad wire is about 4 times that of solid copper, so now we're talking 10 ohms per 100 feet. IOW if you're driving a 110 ohm load with a low impedance source, there's about 1 dB of loss per 100 feet. You'll easily hear that in a close comparison. |
#21
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Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured effects is actually the one I am hearing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#22
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote: I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured effects is actually the one I am hearing. OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple non-inductive series resistance, etc? |
#23
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Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ... Mark wrote: I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured effects is actually the one I am hearing. OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple non-inductive series resistance, etc? It's entirely possible, but could I do it with the same series resistance as the cable? That's a question. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
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Yet another forgery from the buzzardnews forger.
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha 1775C. Doug Sax is a washed-up has been. Probably still using tape machines instead of high performance digital PCs. I've found that most of these ex-sound engineers that have a hit or two usually then try to make money by whoring themselves as experts for sound equipment manufacturers. That's how Monster Cable started, because in my extensive listening this junk is about the worst product available. Bob Morein Dresher, PA (215) 646-4894 (310) 237-6511 |
#25
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:12:11 -0400, Richard Crowley wrote
(in article ): "Eeyore" wrote ... nebulax wrote: I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what he said: "We have done extensive listening to wire. IDIOTS ! Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire? Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine. oops! Snneezed and hit the send. Guitar cords. Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#26
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![]() oops! Snneezed and hit the send. Guitar cords. Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com Regards, Ty Ford Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post.... Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there. Not so much in another studio a few days later. We figured it had to do with the existing wiring and console/preamp I/Os. Lou Frisch atGotham audio has some NOS GAC-3 that has a different jacket color. I got some because it's good cable, and would help me find mine during those events where more than one person's cable is being used. Louis also has it at a good price...while it lasts. www.gothamaudious.com Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#28
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote: I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured effects is actually the one I am hearing. well that's the fun part, trying to correlate what we think we can hear to what we can measure. that's how progress is made what do you think you hear? Mark |
#29
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![]() Arny Krueger wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important or in any way improvements. Details please. I must admit that listening tests involving 50 feet runs of 24 gauge versus 12 gauge using some speakers with wild impedance curves were positive for audible differences. That would be expected of course. OTOH, comparisons of parallel runs of 8 feet of 3/8" steel rebar versus some $300 a pair Monster Cable were negative for audible differences. I can imagine. Graham |
#30
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![]() Scott Dorsey wrote: Eeyore wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem. How long were those mic cables ? But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there. Intruiging. I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification effects. Well, it won't be the additional conductivity of the silver since that's just a thin plating. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to kick in, I'll venture. Graham |
#31
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![]() Richard Crowley wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote ... Mark wrote: I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was.. I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured effects is actually the one I am hearing. OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple non-inductive series resistance, etc? There's a good (and simple) test. Graham |
#32
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. .. I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. For people who don't carry a RG cable characteristics table around in their heads, RG 174 is micro coax. The center conductor is about 24 gauge. DCR of pure copper 24 gauge is about 2.5 ohms per 100 feet. It makes pretty crappy speaker wire, but tell that to Radio Shack!. ;-) IME the DCR of copper-clad wire is about 4 times that of solid copper, so now we're talking 10 ohms per 100 feet. IOW if you're driving a 110 ohm load with a low impedance source, there's about 1 dB of loss per 100 feet. You'll easily hear that in a close comparison. Except that the only 110 ohm loads most of us drive are AES digital connections, and you shouldn't hear a difference with a 1dB loss in a digital signal unless the receives is so bad that it craps out without 100% full amplitude. More likely in the audio world a coax cable would be used into a 10k load, and the loss would then be about .009dB. Even into a 600 ohm load the loss would be 0.14dB -- and who uses unbalanced coax into 600 ohm loads? Peace, Paul |
#33
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"Eeyore" wrote in message
... I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to kick in, I'll venture. A few decades ago somebody from one of the larger Japanese hi-fi manufacturers, I think Kenwood, published a paper in JAES theorizing that the proximity of ferromagnetic metal to conductors carrying audio signals could add distortion; they included measurements which seemed to show significant effects. IIRC, the effect was inverse-square proportional, but it may have been inverse-to-the-fourth-power. It's been a long time. Anyway, they did include measurements; the paper might be worth looking up. Peace, Paul |
#34
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hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote: wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote: Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another league altogether. Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies in another league altogether. Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life. Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call bull**** on you. I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its own against yours. I can mod a C460 to sound way better than stock. And my test bench ain't fancy. geoff |
#35
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Preference is based on historical knowlege, expectations and the immediate experience. Since only 1/3 of those things actually relate directly to any listening test that any of us might do, all listening tests are therefore highly suspect unless they somehow deal with the other 2/3. A bit like religon really. geoff |
#36
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Ty Ford wrote:
oops! Snneezed and hit the send. Guitar cords. Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com Regards, Ty Ford Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post.... Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there. Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few inches, or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences. geoff |
#37
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![]() Geoff wrote: Ty Ford wrote: oops! Snneezed and hit the send. Guitar cords. Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post.... Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there. Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few inches, or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences. Or had a slight cold etc etc. One's hearing is an utterly unreliable benchmark and readily enhanced with drugs too. Things sound SO much nicer after some cannabis for example. Graham |
#38
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Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: Eeyore wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: Well, I have heard differences between wires, That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ? Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem. How long were those mic cables ? Really only a few hundred feet. Not SUPER long. And if you can hear an effect with a couple hundred feet, it's going to get worse when you have a couple thousand foot run out to the truck. But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there. Intruiging. I'm looking for a good explanation. At the time I could repeat it consistently too. I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification effects. Well, it won't be the additional conductivity of the silver since that's just a thin plating. No, some of the swanky audiophile cables are actually solid silver. Which is a major pain in the neck, actually, because it's brittle. Silver plated copper cable is very common, though, for high voltage work. It doesn't develop tin whiskers. I often use it for tube amplifier hookup wire, mostly because I got a bunch of it cheaply once. I doubt it sounds any different. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to kick in, I'll venture. Maybe, but you have that steel-copper junction there in the middle of everything. I'm thinking of that being an issue, rather than a parasitic copper oxide rectifier. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#39
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Mark wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ... I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction issues. what do you think you hear? Treble harshness. That can be caused by anything from high order distortion products to a change in frequency response to maybe even a small change in level. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#40
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On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 11:37:12 +1300, Geoff wrote:
Ty Ford wrote: oops! Snneezed and hit the send. Guitar cords. Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com Regards, Ty Ford Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post.... Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there. Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few inches, or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences. geoff Pretty much...... I remember back in the 80s when CD players were brand new, I went to a clinic given at Harvey by Sony. I dragged my Magnavox, yes Magnavox because it had great converters, to the clinic and had the Sony people connect it to their test equipment and give me a print out. The unit did very well and they were a wee bit surprised so I got invited to A--B it with their top of the line ES player, which BTW cost about 10 times what I paid for the Magnavox.... They did have a comparator and the tests were double blind. Nothing was rigged as far as I could tell, unlike a Bose dog and pony show I went to...don't ask..... We sat there sipping some nice wine and enjoying the music but none of us could hear any difference between the $300 player and the $2500 player. Maybe it was us? Maybe it was the wine? Who knows! That was until a CD with tubuler bells was played. Yep, the Sony sounded clearer and everyone could hear the difference. We all laughed though because WTF? How many people play solo tubular bell CDs and even still, the difference was so minor you had to really concentrate to hear it. Still, there WAS a difference.... Just some words..... Like Scott said, maybe there is a difference but is it really *better*? What is *better* anyhow? |
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Doug Sax on wire | Pro Audio | |||
Microtrack sound clips from Doug Oade | Pro Audio | |||
Ohio: Doug Gillard Recording Workshop: 4/16/2005 | Pro Audio | |||
Doug Walker contact info ? | Pro Audio | |||
Doug Sharrott please contact me | Pro Audio |