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#1
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? Or should I leave 6dbFS peak headroom to avoid crapping out the cheap gear? It sounds fine through most CD players and my powerbook even, but on my RCA DVD player through my ancient Fisher amp all the ff volume parts totally crap out the system. Yow, the lowest common denominator is my home stereo... Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#2
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"WillStG" wrote in message
Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? IME commercial recordings "top out" some place between -3 dB FS and FS. Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? That's really an artistic question. How do you want this recording to be perceived by the listeners? Is it supposed to sound delicate or forceful? Or should I leave 6dbFS peak headroom to avoid crapping out the cheap gear? Only a dB or so is required for that purpose. It sounds fine through most CD players and my powerbook even, but on my RCA DVD player through my ancient Fisher amp all the ff volume parts totally crap out the system. Yow, the lowest common denominator is my home stereo... Is this recording going to be played frequently in a mobile environment? If so, then there's a good argument for moving the levels up maybe 4-5 dB. |
#3
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"WillStG" wrote ...
Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? "Arny Krueger" wrote ... IME commercial recordings "top out" some place between -3 dB FS and FS. Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? That's really an artistic question. How do you want this recording to be perceived by the listeners? Is it supposed to sound delicate or forceful? Isn't it also a tracking vs. mastering question? If you REALLY have complete confidence that the level of the FF is reliable, you could get away with slimmer headroom when recording the performance. I agree that commercial recordings appear to top out at -3dBfs (or above), but that is with the benefit of mastering hindsight, isn't it? |
#4
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
I usually record most ensembles to have 4-6 dB of headroom in the
performance. When I bring it back home to do post, I rarely do much dynamic control to it, but I do "normalize" the levels to a certain extent- usually bringing the loudest part of the concert to -0.5. Problem is with classical music, many of the performers have such a large dynamic range that the lower end becomes almost inaudible on lower-end setups (including cars). To have a fighting chance, I bump the levels up so they don't have to strain as much to hear the soft stuff... I had a recording that I made of a choir and orchestra come back to me last week. It was a performance of the Durufle Requiem and the director was complaining that the loud parts distorted on his stereo system (car and boombox), but not on his good Mackie monitors... Turns out the performance had a 40+ dB dynamic range and to hear the soft, he turned his system all the way up. When it got loud, the stereo distorted. For one of the first times in my classical recording life, I worked really hard to remove dynamics. I manually lowered the volume of the loud passages and significantly raised the soft passages. Slapped on an L2 with about 3-4 dB of peak reduction in the loud parts and he was happy. I guess he really didn't need that extra 10-15dB of dynamic range the original recording had.... --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies "WillStG" wrote in message ... Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? Or should I leave 6dbFS peak headroom to avoid crapping out the cheap gear? It sounds fine through most CD players and my powerbook even, but on my RCA DVD player through my ancient Fisher amp all the ff volume parts totally crap out the system. Yow, the lowest common denominator is my home stereo... Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#5
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
WillStG wrote:
Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? You should not leave it as it is, your average recorded level will be around -32 dB ref full scale, and your listeners will expect more and have to either reach for the remote or take the looong walk across the living room to adjust playback level. Or should I leave 6dbFS peak headroom to avoid crapping out the cheap gear? It sounds fine through most CD players and my powerbook even, Arny's suggestion of leaving a single dB makes more sense. but on my RCA DVD player through my ancient Fisher amp all the ff volume parts totally crap out the system. Yow, the lowest common denominator is my home stereo... Input clipping? Will Miho Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ************************************************** *********** * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ************************************************** *********** |
#6
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
"WillStG" wrote ... Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? "Arny Krueger" wrote ... IME commercial recordings "top out" some place between -3 dB FS and FS. Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? That's really an artistic question. How do you want this recording to be perceived by the listeners? Is it supposed to sound delicate or forceful? Isn't it also a tracking vs. mastering question? I interpreted the question as being a mastering question. If you REALLY have complete confidence that the level of the FF is reliable, you could get away with slimmer headroom when recording the performance. In a tracking environment, my target for headroom is more like 10 dB. I agree that commercial recordings appear to top out at -3dBfs (or above), but that is with the benefit of mastering hindsight, isn't it? I do think so! |
#7
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
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#8
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
Ok, I set levels recording this classical piano project by ear, and the
loudest passages hit -5.6 dbFS ( all double forte parts. ) Is that where ff usually is on this kind of program? Should I move things up and use the headroom if it is globally available on the project or just leave it where it is? If nothing peaks above a mezzo-piano or even pianissimo, I will put that up close to 0 dbfs. I see no point in making everything on a CD 6 db below the top. If it seems overly loud on quiet material, the listener can turn it down. Or should I leave 6dbFS peak headroom to avoid crapping out the cheap gear? I don't think we should cater to any gear so crappy it will clip at -6 below full scale. It sounds fine through most CD players and my powerbook even, but on my RCA DVD player through my ancient Fisher amp all the ff volume parts totally crap out the system. Yow, the lowest common denominator is my home stereo... Nothing a bunch of money can't fix. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits Scott Fraser |
#9
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Benjamin Maas" wrote in message news:T3usb.182718$Fm2.165773@attbi_s04...
[snip] I had a recording that I made of a choir and orchestra come back to me last week. It was a performance of the Durufle Requiem and the director was complaining that the loud parts distorted on his stereo system (car and boombox), but not on his good Mackie monitors... Turns out the performance had a 40+ dB dynamic range and to hear the soft, he turned his system all the way up. When it got loud, the stereo distorted. For one of the first times in my classical recording life, I worked really hard to remove dynamics. I manually lowered the volume of the loud passages and [another snip] Jeez... I hope the guy wasn't ****ed that your recording captured the performance's dynamic range. It seems odd for a conductor to rely on playback from a boom box and car stereo to make the decision to trump his own conducting with technological artifice. Assuming, that is, that the purpose of the recording is to represent the performance faithfully (whatever that means)... -Matt |
#10
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
Assuming, that is,
that the purpose of the recording is to represent the performance faithfully (whatever that means)... Since representing a performance faithfully is totally out of the question, I'd say the purpose of the recording is to make a good recording, which is a different art form than a performance. Scott Fraser |
#11
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Richard Crowley" wrote in
: If you REALLY have complete confidence that the level of the FF is reliable, you could get away with slimmer headroom when recording the performance. True statement, but doesn't usually happen in the real world. I find that all but very seasoned professionals will hold back a bit in rehearsal and play louder in the concert, thus 6 dB headroom is a dangerously narrow margin for error. OTOH, I also never get a full 96 dB of S/N because of room noise, so lowering the levels won't necessarily cause problems. If you plan to do a lot of editing to the file, record it in (or convert to) 24 bits before editing. Then normalize and THEN convert to 16 bit with dither. |
#12
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Matthew Champagne" wrote in message om... "Benjamin Maas" wrote in message news:T3usb.182718$Fm2.165773@attbi_s04... [snip] I had a recording that I made of a choir and orchestra come back to me last week. It was a performance of the Durufle Requiem and the director was complaining that the loud parts distorted on his stereo system (car and boombox), but not on his good Mackie monitors... Turns out the performance had a 40+ dB dynamic range and to hear the soft, he turned his system all the way up. When it got loud, the stereo distorted. For one of the first times in my classical recording life, I worked really hard to remove dynamics. I manually lowered the volume of the loud passages and [another snip] Jeez... I hope the guy wasn't ****ed that your recording captured the performance's dynamic range. It seems odd for a conductor to rely on playback from a boom box and car stereo to make the decision to trump his own conducting with technological artifice. Assuming, that is, that the purpose of the recording is to represent the performance faithfully (whatever that means)... -Matt Nahh... He wasn't ****ed. He just couldn't understand why it was distorting when it got loud. It wasn't until I started questioning him that I found that he turned the stereo in his car most of the way up to hear the soft stuff and then when it got loud, it distorted... He sort of understood that this problem was caused by a good thing- the fact that there were huge dynamics in his performance. Oh well.... So much for trying to maintain dynamic contrast in a recording. --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies |
#13
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
(ScotFraser)
If nothing peaks above a mezzo-piano or even pianissimo, I will put that up close to 0 dbfs. I see no point in making everything on a CD 6 db below the top. If it seems overly loud on quiet material, the listener can turn it down. Thanks for the comments everyone. I have lots of CDs, but most classical music I have is on LPs! So I was wondering if there is some kind of dynamic consistency between classical recordings where if you put several CD's in your CD changer, the dynamic levels match between different CD programs. If that was the case I thought maybe I should a little room for FFF even though this program material might never hit that level? But not only does that not seem to not be the case, but the dynamics wars are even affecting Benjamin Mass and Scott Fraser now? Ahh, competition! What's next, digital reverb on everything! Oh wait, that's what those British DG guys were doing patching that Lex 300 into their Studer... In any event, the esthetic seems to be not that different in terms of final levels from putting together any other CD. I think I'm still going to try to be somewhat purist about it though... Thanks guys. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#14
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Carey Carlan" wrote in message
. 201 "Richard Crowley" wrote in : If you REALLY have complete confidence that the level of the FF is reliable, you could get away with slimmer headroom when recording the performance. True statement, but doesn't usually happen in the real world. I find that all but very seasoned professionals will hold back a bit in rehearsal and play louder in the concert, Yeah, up to 10 dB louder. This is one very objectively-apparent way that emotion is present in music. thus 6 dB headroom is a dangerously narrow margin for error. Agreed. I record the same performers in the same room with the same mics once a week for over a year, and in that context I admit that for the sake of convenience, I sometimes record with about 6 dB headroom. However, any changes, and I go close to double that. OTOH, I also never get a full 96 dB of S/N because of room noise, so lowering the levels won't necessarily cause problems. In my case an open converter channel might have a noise floor that is 95+ dB below FS. A terminated mic input might have a noise floor that is something like 85 dB below FS. Plug in the mic and with a quiet room, the noise floor is in the high 70's until the people show up. With even a few people present but not talking loudly, the noise floor is in the low 70's. During a performance, the noise floor in the high 60s when things are as quiet as they can get. Bottom line, the noise level I control by setting headroom is always way, way above the digital noise floor. If you plan to do a lot of editing to the file, record it in (or convert to) 24 bits before editing. Then normalize and THEN convert to 16 bit with dither. That works. However if you look over my numbers, my use of 24 bits gives me more peace of mind than anything else. |
#15
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Matthew Champagne" wrote in message
om "Benjamin Maas" wrote in message news:T3usb.182718$Fm2.165773@attbi_s04... [snip] I had a recording that I made of a choir and orchestra come back to me last week. It was a performance of the Durufle Requiem and the director was complaining that the loud parts distorted on his stereo system (car and boombox), but not on his good Mackie monitors... Turns out the performance had a 40+ dB dynamic range and to hear the soft, he turned his system all the way up. When it got loud, the stereo distorted. For one of the first times in my classical recording life, I worked really hard to remove dynamics. I manually lowered the volume of the loud passages and [another snip] Jeez... I hope the guy wasn't ****ed that your recording captured the performance's dynamic range. It's very nice to have a wide dynamic range recording on tap when the time and place is right for a shot at sonic recreation, but... It seems odd for a conductor to rely on playback from a boom box and car stereo to make the decision to trump his own conducting with technological artifice. I think he was listening most carefully to other aspects of the performance than the dynamic range. Assuming, that is, that the purpose of the recording is to represent the performance faithfully (whatever that means)... I don't think he wanted total faithfulness, he wanted to judge other musical values than dynamic range when he had the time to evaluate them. In the modern world, time to sit in a quiet room and JUST listen to music seems to be getting rarer and rarer. |
#16
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
WillStG wrote:
(ScotFraser) If nothing peaks above a mezzo-piano or even pianissimo, I will put that up close to 0 dbfs. I see no point in making everything on a CD 6 db below the top. If it seems overly loud on quiet material, the listener can turn it down. Thanks for the comments everyone. I have lots of CDs, but most classical music I have is on LPs! So I was wondering if there is some kind of dynamic consistency between classical recordings where if you put several CD's in your CD changer, the dynamic levels match between different CD programs. If that was the case I thought maybe I should a little room for FFF even though this program material might never hit that level? Not really, but I do know some folks who have issued some clavichord records (I think on Nonesuch) where the peak level was at about -10 dB, so that if you played them at the normal listening level you're probably used to, they would sound about the right (really quiet) level for the instrument. But not only does that not seem to not be the case, but the dynamics wars are even affecting Benjamin Mass and Scott Fraser now? Ahh, competition! What's next, digital reverb on everything! Oh wait, that's what those British DG guys were doing patching that Lex 300 into their Studer... DG seems to have a very different notion of what makes a good recording than I do. But, they sure sell a lot more than I do also. In any event, the esthetic seems to be not that different in terms of final levels from putting together any other CD. I think I'm still going to try to be somewhat purist about it though... Thanks guys. Right, although I do think it's important that the difference in levels be consistent with a performance. I know folks who will normalize each movement seperately and wind up with one track on the disc noticeably louder than the others, and I don't like that at all. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
But not only does that not seem to not be the case, but the dynamics
wars are even affecting Benjamin Mass and Scott Fraser now? Ahh, competition! Client demands. I'll give a client an uncompressed jazz trio CD with peaks hitting -1dbfs & average levels around -8 to -10 & they come back with "It sounds quieter than commercial jazz CDs." So I give them a version with 3 db of peak limiting, push average levels up accordingly & they're happy as clams. People don't want the full original dynamic range of a performance on a recording. They want the APPEARANCE of the original dynamics, which in the medium of recording means an alteration of the dynamics. Right, although I do think it's important that the difference in levels be consistent with a performance. I know folks who will normalize each movement seperately and wind up with one track on the disc noticeably louder than the others, That's just bad & unmusical mastering. Scott Fraser |
#18
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
WillStG wrote: I have lots of CDs, but most classical music I have is on LPs! So I was wondering if there is some kind of dynamic consistency between classical recordings where if you put several CD's in your CD changer, the dynamic levels match between different CD programs. No. Real classical music fans stopped using changers when they started putting out LPs and you didn't need to stack up an album's worth of 78's to hear a whole movement of a symphony. Also, classical music lovers tend to be more audiophiles, where listening to a record (or a CD) is an event, not just something you put on and set at a level so that it's not so loud to bother you and doesn't get so quiet so that you get distracted wondering what you're missing. I can remember "listening evenings" when a few of us would get together, each bringing a record or two, and we'd put them on and just sit and listen (oh, and maybe eat some popcorn or have a beer). What a concept! -- I'm really Mike Rivers - ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#19
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1068813443k@trad... I can remember "listening evenings" when a few of us would get together, each bringing a record or two, and we'd put them on and just sit and listen (oh, and maybe eat some popcorn or have a beer). And I can remember staying up way too late 'cause the end of a beer never coincided with the end of a side of a record. :-) Hal Laurent Baltimore |
#20
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
Honestly Mike. How can you listen to classical music and eat popcorn? g
-- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See how far $20 really goes. "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1068813443k@trad... WillStG wrote: I have lots of CDs, but most classical music I have is on LPs! So I was wondering if there is some kind of dynamic consistency between classical recordings where if you put several CD's in your CD changer, the dynamic levels match between different CD programs. No. Real classical music fans stopped using changers when they started putting out LPs and you didn't need to stack up an album's worth of 78's to hear a whole movement of a symphony. Also, classical music lovers tend to be more audiophiles, where listening to a record (or a CD) is an event, not just something you put on and set at a level so that it's not so loud to bother you and doesn't get so quiet so that you get distracted wondering what you're missing. I can remember "listening evenings" when a few of us would get together, each bringing a record or two, and we'd put them on and just sit and listen (oh, and maybe eat some popcorn or have a beer). What a concept! -- I'm really Mike Rivers - ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#21
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
"Roger W. Norman" wrote:
Honestly Mike. How can you listen to classical music and eat popcorn? g A comfy chair? - & it probably wasn't avant garde! Roger W. Norman Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ************************************************** *********** * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ************************************************** *********** |
#22
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Classical program ff = ?dbFS
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