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#1
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1 |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more difficult
to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I want to make adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are thinking about that aspect. And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these factory systems really are getting quite good. - RG "MOSFET" wrote in message m... Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1 |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today that Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is why they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually scaling back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market share at a different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others duke it out in the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market. - RG "RG" wrote in message ... One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I want to make adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are thinking about that aspect. And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these factory systems really are getting quite good. - RG "MOSFET" wrote in message m... Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1 |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just don't see the need or point behind it. The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from my mistakes. I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox cars. The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate, and Mitek. In article , "MOSFET" wrote: Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page= 1 |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today that Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is why they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually scaling back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market share at a different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others duke it out in the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market. - RG That's a REALLY good point. Alpine HAS been lowering price points for all it's models and has indeed been scaling back on features. As RG has said, perhaps consumer feedback indicates that most people DO find these new decks too complicated and would prefer a simpler set of features. Something I should have added on my previous post, the domeinance of MP3 CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED AS A ANOTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNFALL OF SQ. As we all know, the MP3 format is inferior in SQ to CD or DVD, yet it has become very POPULAR, in large part to the UNBELIEVABLY popular iPod. This shift (from SQ to convience) may have much to do with the decline in high-end manufacturer's like PG and why companies like Alpine are scaling back features that were typically considered high-end (like time correction for instance). Companies are just not emphasising SQ anymore b/c they know many people these days will be listening to MP3's. I've said this before, but you should hear how home stereo Audiophiles moan and groan when the topic of MP3's comes up. Many think the MP3 format is SINGLE-HANDEDLY destrying new innovations in sound quality and MP3 is CERTAINLY hampering the introduction of new formats such as DVD-Audio. Many believe that the entire audio industry as a whole is moving backwards when it comes to SQ. And I hate to admitt it, but I'm guilty of this shift backwards as well. MP3's are all I listen to any more in my car. I suppose the answer to all this is to ome up with an equivalant format that has the same (OR BETTER) sound quality of CD, yet has all the benefits of MP3 (small file sizes, easy to transfer and manage, etc.). But for the masses, I'm afraid MP3 is adequate and here to stay (whether we like it or not). MOSFET "RG" wrote in message ... One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I want to make adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are thinking about that aspect. And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these factory systems really are getting quite good. - RG "MOSFET" wrote in message m... Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1 |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
The first day after that tiring weekend installing the gear, we are amazed
to listen to that good SQ system and we tell the family to not to wait for dinner I need to finish this thing first. Instead you are just listening to the SQ. Do we give the same attention to the sound when driving as in garage. After some time/days/weeks the focus shifts to, "I could have had an MP3 unit in the same price and had more songs to listen to". Convenience per $ is greater than SQ/$ There are so many things in the car to tweak to get the sound that right and sometime a thought comes in (audiophiles may not like it, but) why the effort and extra use of $$, when I already have a great home audio system to ponder on without the noise, full concentration to the audio not wheel and remote in hand, ass on couch. Convenience does matter. "MOSFET" wrote in message news | That's a REALLY good point. Alpine HAS been lowering price points for all | it's models and has indeed been scaling back on features. As RG has said, | perhaps consumer feedback indicates that most people DO find these new decks | too complicated and would prefer a simpler set of features. | | Something I should have added on my previous post, the domeinance of MP3 | CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED AS A ANOTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNFALL OF SQ. As we all | know, the MP3 format is inferior in SQ to CD or DVD, yet it has become very | POPULAR, in large part to the UNBELIEVABLY popular iPod. This shift (from | SQ to convience) may have much to do with the decline in high-end | manufacturer's like PG and why companies like Alpine are scaling back | features that were typically considered high-end (like time correction for | instance). Companies are just not emphasising SQ anymore b/c they know many | people these days will be listening to MP3's. | | I've said this before, but you should hear how home stereo Audiophiles moan | and groan when the topic of MP3's comes up. Many think the MP3 format is | SINGLE-HANDEDLY destrying new innovations in sound quality and MP3 is | CERTAINLY hampering the introduction of new formats such as DVD-Audio. Many | believe that the entire audio industry as a whole is moving backwards when | it comes to SQ. And I hate to admitt it, but I'm guilty of this shift | backwards as well. MP3's are all I listen to any more in my car. I suppose | the answer to all this is to ome up with an equivalant format that has the | same (OR BETTER) sound quality of CD, yet has all the benefits of MP3 (small | file sizes, easy to transfer and manage, etc.). | | But for the masses, I'm afraid MP3 is adequate and here to stay (whether we | like it or not). | | MOSFET |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I
must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the benefits. - RG "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just don't see the need or point behind it. The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from my mistakes. I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox cars. The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate, and Mitek. In article , "MOSFET" wrote: Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page= 1 |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
I use my video screen ALL the time. It makes a great way to see all my MP3
titles at one time, and an easier way to scroll through a disc full of mp3 titles. I can play MP3's through both my HU (an Alpine 9853) or my DVD player, but I generally prefer to listen through the DVD player because of the screen and being able to see all the titles (I can scroll down like a computer to find the title I want). But no, I NEVER watch DVD's in my car. I thought perhaps passengers might on a long trip, but no, it NEVER gets used that way. But I think you two (Howdy and RG) would change your opinion about video screens if you had a screen to manage your MP3 titles. MOSFET "RG" wrote in message ... What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the benefits. - RG "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just don't see the need or point behind it. The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from my mistakes. I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox cars. The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate, and Mitek. In article , "MOSFET" wrote: Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page= 1 |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
I'm waiting for the SPL people to start complaining about how they can't
hear anything anymore. I wonder how much they will enjoy music then? -- I. Care Yes, looking ahead, Phoenix Gold would be wise to diversify their product line and start building hearing-aides as well as amplifiers. MOSFET |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
In car video is one thing that I can do without, I can beat my meat to a porn
movie at home. Navigation for me is a no can do without. My wife just doesn't understand the idea of how maps work, and around the Toronto area one wrong turn can cost you can hour during rush hour as the highways around Toronto become parking lots. Our first trip to Florida was a nightmare because of my wife's lack of mapping skills, and this is what drove me to spend the $1500 at that time on a navigation system. The thing I like the best about the navigation system other then not getting lost is that it gives me a phone number of the motels/hotels, restaurants along my route and the money you can save just by being able to find a hotel a few miles from the interstate is awesome. In article , "RG" wrote: What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the benefits. - RG "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just don't see the need or point behind it. The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from my mistakes. I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox cars. The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate, and Mitek. In article , "MOSFET" wrote: Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...tory6.html?pag e= 1 |
#13
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Wha Wha did you say ?
In article , "MOSFET" wrote: I'm waiting for the SPL people to start complaining about how they can't hear anything anymore. I wonder how much they will enjoy music then? -- I. Care Yes, looking ahead, Phoenix Gold would be wise to diversify their product line and start building hearing-aides as well as amplifiers. MOSFET |
#14
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
I use mine nearly every day. I watch TV episodes on DVD or movies during
my lunch break as they refuse to acknowledge the TV in the breakroom is broken. Each episode lasts about 45 minutes, so I get about 15 minutes to run and get food, then watch it while sitting in front of the building. I also use it on long car trips for passengers sometimes. Usually I just listen to XM in that case though. Navigation would be cool, but I can't justify the cost when a map works, as well as pulling up mapquest or google maps on my PDA phone. Brandonb Captain Howdy wrote: Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just don't see the need or point behind it. |
#15
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
RG wrote: The factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. HEH, I own an EP3 too, an '04. Chad |
#16
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
MOSFET wrote: Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade. The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models". That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp. And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO! Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since. MOSFET "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index. jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en In article , (Captain Howdy) wrote: http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1 As we've tried to build our retail operation, we've learned quite a lot about this industry very quickly. First, the industry is going to have to throw off some companies because the market is simply saturated with product. Imagine being a guy who doesn't have a electrical engineering degree, who didn't really grow up with car audio, who loves music and wants a kick ass system -- what does this cat have to go through to get a great sounding system at a good price? If he came to this message board he'd get steem rolled with information that was way over his head (and conflicting). He could read one of the car audio magazines that he could find at Boarders...oh, they only have one at Boarders! If he did buy the magazine, he'd see a laundry list of manufacturers and longer lists of models and meaningless (to him) lists of specs for the models. This dude ends up going to Wal Mart, picking up some Sony Xplod, and will probably be pretty happy. Well, until he comes across a guy with Kicker who says it's the shiznit, and he runs out and buys a bunch of Kicker stuff. He can't tell the difference, but at least he *feels* like he has a better system. Then somebody tells him Kicker blows and that he really needs some Kappas. After buying a few systems and spending more money than he ever wanted to, ol' boy buys a car with a factory Bose system, realizes that it sounds about as good as anything else and gives up on car audio. Could you imagine if there were over 200 different makes of cars (like there is in the car amplifier world)? The industry needs to be cut down to a more reasonable level of competition so that prices can be set at a sustainable level (when I was selling items for 5% over cost, I sold more than I could handle but made no money. When I moved to 30% over, it became worth it to sell things, but people bought from Etronics instead...at 5% over cost). This will happen in time, because if I can't make any money selling car audio, then the manufacturers can't make money either and they will start dropping off. The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to be trusted. Anyway, that's the way I see it. Pious |
#17
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Yes every body has bought one of the average brands (to start with), only a
subset of them moved to higher brands. Overflowing pockets may start with the high-end directly but how many overflowing pockets are out there anyways. On the same line how many people will afford the cost of a fully commercial free channels. Not the average consumer! All companies will end up having both average / high-end; cheap / robust systems for us. Well Said Pious "Pious Audio" wrote in message ups.com... | The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore | the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly | and understandable to the average consumer. | Pious |
#18
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
youve convensed me. since theyre all the same i'm going all pyle..ty
no kicker/infinity/nakamishi /alpine/rf/clarion/jlaudio for me. |
#19
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to be trusted. Anyway, that's the way I see it. Pious I agree with many things you said. It made me think about how I learned about car audio and how my first system was built. I had my first system built in 1990 by Magnolia Hi-Fi in Portland, OR and I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about car audio (though I did know a lot about home stereo systems). I was lucky to have a VERY patient salesman who explained MANY things to me and steered me into a Kenwood CD HU (I had gone in thinking I wanted cassette, dumb, dumb, dumb), a Rockford Fosgate Punch 75 amp driving a 12" RF sub, and Boston Acoustics speakers. I was VERY pleased with my first system and glad he guided me towards good brands (I had never even HEARD of Rockford Fosgate before going to that store). This was before the days of the internet and after I bought that first system (and had caught the car audio bug) I actually learned TONS from car audio magazines, in fact, most of the basics that I know today I learned from magazines. But one thing I've noticed is that the car audio magazines like CA&E, CSR, and AS&S were VERY different back then. They were filled with information for the DIY, explanations of basic electrical principles, how to remove door panels, how to swap out a HU, and on and on. They were full of info for the newbie. When I flip through TODAY'S car audio magazines there is none of this. They are just filled with fancy imports full of fiberglass and expensive products that VERY FEW could afford and CERTAINLY does not represent anything like a "starter system". I also notice that these magazines are MUCH thinner (fewer pages) than they used to be. Anyway, I agree that for a person looking to learn about car audio, these days car audio magazines ARE NOT the way to go. I think there are some EXCELLENT resources on the internet where a person can learn about car audio. This group's own FAQ makes an EXCELLENT tutorial for the newbie. And what you don't learn from the FAQ, this group can answer ALMOST ANY question one might have (I can't count how many times the guys on this group have answered important questions I have had). Yes, sometimes there seems like there is too much information and conflicting information everywhere you look, but frankly I think THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BETTER time to learn about and build your first system. Prices have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of information, you just have to slowly sift through it. MOSFET |
#20
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
snip
MOSFET wrote: Prices have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of information, you just have to slowly sift through it. MOSFET I certainly wouldn't argue that an enterprising newbie couldn't learn every bit of what they needed to know to build a great system today. What I am saying is that the industry can't expect the public to do that en mass. In the car industry, since I used that example before, they make it clear to the average consumer what they can expect from each product (MPG, Horsepower, Standard/Automatic, A/C -- and so on), the audio industry does a terrible job at relaying that sort of basic information about its products. It's pretty well known that MPG is measured on flat tracks at 55-65 MPH, windows up a/c off. Even car audio experts can't make a sweeping statement about how an Amps power rating is determined without first explaining that each manufacturer does it their own way, and that technique may vary depending upon which model is being tested and what price point the model is supposed to hit. The industry can either be elitist (awarding those who are willing to invest great deals of time in learning what's what), or they can sell tons of stuff at good prices. It's difficult to do both. Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'. |
#21
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in
popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'. Yes, but the ENTIRE audio industry is like that, just look at the home audio industry. For instance, they sell these $250 Shakti stones (and they REALLY ARE just small rocks) that when put on top of stereo gear, will APPARENTLY make your stuff sound better. People buy these stones, LOTS OF PEOPLE. This is just one small example. There is so much myth when it comes to high-end home audio, it's ridiculous. People happily spend THOUSANDS on a pair of interconnects or speaker cables and will tell you that one pair of interconnects sound more "open" than another pair. My point is that there has ALWAYS been a certain amount of subjectivity and "art" to the world of audio. People like it that way. You really can't compare audio products to car performance enhancement products for this reason. Now, I am NOT saying that I buy into all the high-end audio lore (I don't use tube-traps, or Margio Dots, and I most certainly DO NOT USE A TURNTABLE, THEY DO NOT SOUND BETTER THAN CD, NO WAY!!!). I agree that some standardization in the car audio industry would help. But the problem with that is (unlike HP, which all would agree is important) not everyone can agree what is truly important in the world of audio. Again, I use the high-end home audio world as an example, many people say that single-ended triode tube amps are the VERY BEST SOUNDING AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD. Yet, their THD and power ratings generally ALWAYS SUCK. We see this to a lesser degree in the car audio world. Some think that this parameter is important while others think this other parameter is important. There is no universally agreed upon standard. There is no universally agreed upon "REALLY GOOD SOUND". What sounds good to one person might sound terrible to another. This makes any kind of rating or standardization difficult if not impossible. Again, it really boils down to the "art" factor that is involved in audio. With cars, it's HP and MPH, THAT'S IT. MOSFET |
#22
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
MOSFET wrote: Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'. Yes, but the ENTIRE audio industry is like that, just look at the home audio industry. For instance, they sell these $250 Shakti stones (and they REALLY ARE just small rocks) that when put on top of stereo gear, will APPARENTLY make your stuff sound better. People buy these stones, LOTS OF PEOPLE. This is just one small example. There is so much myth when it comes to high-end home audio, it's ridiculous. People happily spend THOUSANDS on a pair of interconnects or speaker cables and will tell you that one pair of interconnects sound more "open" than another pair. My point is that there has ALWAYS been a certain amount of subjectivity and "art" to the world of audio. People like it that way. You really can't compare audio products to car performance enhancement products for this reason. Now, I am NOT saying that I buy into all the high-end audio lore (I don't use tube-traps, or Margio Dots, and I most certainly DO NOT USE A TURNTABLE, THEY DO NOT SOUND BETTER THAN CD, NO WAY!!!). I agree that some standardization in the car audio industry would help. But the problem with that is (unlike HP, which all would agree is important) not everyone can agree what is truly important in the world of audio. Again, I use the high-end home audio world as an example, many people say that single-ended triode tube amps are the VERY BEST SOUNDING AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD. Yet, their THD and power ratings generally ALWAYS SUCK. We see this to a lesser degree in the car audio world. Some think that this parameter is important while others think this other parameter is important. There is no universally agreed upon standard. There is no universally agreed upon "REALLY GOOD SOUND". What sounds good to one person might sound terrible to another. This makes any kind of rating or standardization difficult if not impossible. Again, it really boils down to the "art" factor that is involved in audio. With cars, it's HP and MPH, THAT'S IT. MOSFET Mosfet -- you and I never agree. Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system than DBs. The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops? Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of building cars comes in to play. The difference for entry-level guys (in both worlds), is that it's very easy to bring a 17 second stock automobile down to a 12 second street racer that will even kick some ass at grudge night, because the manufacturers have made their products mindlessly easy to choose and to use. It is that level of user that the car audio industry is missing out on. Here, we have guys who know nothing and have a hard time getting anything done because of it, and guys who are semi-pros -- no in-between. The reason I focused on car audio is that I think that the same problem doesn't exist for home audio. If a guy wants an entry level home audio system, he can get a good "surround sound in a box" set up from Yamaha, Bose, and cheaper versions from JVC, Pioneer and Sony (...). There is no similar entry level scheme for car audio (that I'm aware of). I'm not completely interested in the 'industry' settling this issue -- because this is where an enterprising retailer can set himself apart from the competition by putting together his own 'packages' to take the guess work out of putting together systems for the most commonly desired affects. |
#23
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Mosfet -- you and I never agree.
Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system than DBs. The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops? Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of building cars comes in to play. I was simply looking at your analogy of car enhancement products and that you stated HP gains are clearly indicated and understood by all. I was MAINLY addressing the point that this is not a good analogy because "audio enhancement products" can mean SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS to so many different people. The scope of what encompasses "audio enhancement" is HUGE. To one person it might mean an increase in dB, to another it might be the purchase of those ridiculous Shakti stones and how that "opened up" his soundstage. But in the world of cars, "performance enhancement" has a very concrete meaning. Now I'm not saying there is no "art" in the world of cars. Of course there is. But I just think the analogy is a poor one. Now you're a smart guy and obviously you know that the biggest reason there can be no one-size-fits-all "entry level" car audio package (unlike a Yamaha Home Theater In A Box) is that everyone drives different cars. That's it, pure and simple. If we all drove the same car every car audio company could simply offer their good, better, best package that would include HU, speakers, and amps. Everything would be really simple, it would just be a matter of deciding which brand to go with (like the home audio industry). But of course it is much more complicated than that. Overall, Pious, I think you are (again) being a little too pious. I think most manufacturers do the best they can to simplify things to the average (or new) consumer. I really don't see the car audio industry differing much from other industries. Yes, those new to it will be confused at first. What's new? You just seem WAY too pessimistic about things. I will say it again, IMHO, there has never been a better time to learn about and get into the world of car audio. Ever Optimistic, MOSFET |
#24
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
MOSFET wrote: Mosfet -- you and I never agree. Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system than DBs. The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops? Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of building cars comes in to play. I was simply looking at your analogy of car enhancement products and that you stated HP gains are clearly indicated and understood by all. I was MAINLY addressing the point that this is not a good analogy because "audio enhancement products" can mean SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS to so many different people. The scope of what encompasses "audio enhancement" is HUGE. To one person it might mean an increase in dB, to another it might be the purchase of those ridiculous Shakti stones and how that "opened up" his soundstage. But in the world of cars, "performance enhancement" has a very concrete meaning. Now I'm not saying there is no "art" in the world of cars. Of course there is. But I just think the analogy is a poor one. Now you're a smart guy and obviously you know that the biggest reason there can be no one-size-fits-all "entry level" car audio package (unlike a Yamaha Home Theater In A Box) is that everyone drives different cars. That's it, pure and simple. If we all drove the same car every car audio company could simply offer their good, better, best package that would include HU, speakers, and amps. Everything would be really simple, it would just be a matter of deciding which brand to go with (like the home audio industry). But of course it is much more complicated than that. Overall, Pious, I think you are (again) being a little too pious. I think most manufacturers do the best they can to simplify things to the average (or new) consumer. I really don't see the car audio industry differing much from other industries. Yes, those new to it will be confused at first. What's new? You just seem WAY too pessimistic about things. I will say it again, IMHO, there has never been a better time to learn about and get into the world of car audio. Ever Optimistic, MOSFET You may be optimistic, but you try damn hard to make me wrong for no good reason. Yep, every car is different, and so is every user. Every living room is different, too -- yet Home Theater in a Box still exists and brought home theater to the masses. It's far from impossible for a manufacturer, or retailer as I said before, to put together packages for the 10 top selling models of cars/trucks for the previous five years (though models change every year -- basic design only changes about every five years, so there's no need to have different kits for each Camry - 1999-2004 would suffice). You'd buy a kit from a choice of, say, three -- a rock n' roll kit, a hip-hop kit, or a country kit, which included a head unit, install kit, component speakers, amp and sub. No problem -- you've covered literally millions of consumers buy designing 30 'car audio kits'. The manufacturers already do this when they design their systems for stock use (Bose, Infiniti and so on)...so there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be extremely easy for them to make the exact same 'kits' (potentially a 'step-higher' in performance) available to the general public who 1) didn't opt for the upgraded system when they bought their car, or 2) want the 'step-up' from the upgraded system that they did opt for. It's just my opinion -- but this isn't a cottage industry, it's mass production. If you're going to mass produce, and mass market, you have to commit to it and do it as efficiently as possible. |
#25
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
You may be optimistic, but you try damn hard to make me wrong for no
good reason. LOL Yes, it's a personality flaw if mine. My wife hates it. It's that "I Always Have To Be Right" syndrome. It's terrible!! I'm sorry. Yep, every car is different, and so is every user. Every living room is different, too -- yet Home Theater in a Box still exists and brought home theater to the masses. It's far from impossible for a manufacturer, or retailer as I said before, to put together packages for the 10 top selling models of cars/trucks for the previous five years (though models change every year -- basic design only changes about every five years, so there's no need to have different kits for each Camry - 1999-2004 would suffice). You'd buy a kit from a choice of, say, three -- a rock n' roll kit, a hip-hop kit, or a country kit, which included a head unit, install kit, component speakers, amp and sub. No problem -- you've covered literally millions of consumers buy designing 30 'car audio kits'. The manufacturers already do this when they design their systems for stock use (Bose, Infiniti and so on)...so there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be extremely easy for them to make the exact same 'kits' (potentially a 'step-higher' in performance) available to the general public who 1) didn't opt for the upgraded system when they bought their car, or 2) want the 'step-up' from the upgraded system that they did opt for. It's just my opinion -- but this isn't a cottage industry, it's mass production. If you're going to mass produce, and mass market, you have to commit to it and do it as efficiently as possible. I know. And despite everything I have said I REALLY do agree with much of what you said. Of course there are ways the industry (as a whole) could get together and apply standards that would allow more interconectivity among brands and clear-cut criterea in which all products could be judged and compared. However, do not so quickly minimize the importance of the fact we all drive different types of cars. This fact adds COUNTLESS (and I DO MEAN LITTERALLY COUNTLESS) variables when it comes to bulding a car audio system. Take for instance how people USE their cars. Even if we narrowed our discussion to the 5 top selling cars in the US, we run into problems with people who may not be willing to give up cargo space for a subwoofer - this in turn creates a whole realm of possiblities for bass reproduction products (sure to confuse according to you) that take up little or no cargo/trunk space. In a living room, however, space is generally not an issue. Let's face it, the decision to have either a one cubic foot subwoofer or a two subic foot subwoofer in the home would be a VERY uniportant decision for most. BUT IN THE CAR, this decision might be HUGE as the user may need his PRECIOUS carge space. This is just one small example of the complecites and differences that exist between building a system in a car or in a home. And then add to that, we must take into account the music the person listens to. This adds it's own countless variables to the equations. What we have is varibables within varibables. What I'm trying to get across to you is that this is so much more complicated than the home stereo world. Here's a nother factor - power requirments. In the home, everything works on 120 volt AC current, which supllies more than aneough for even the largest systems. But in a car, the demnands of the system frequenctly outstip available power (and yes, this can frequentyl be a problem for the newbie and starter system). And then a WHOLE NEW SET OF VARIBABLES arrise with the need for capactiors, HO alternators, large guage cable, specialized batteries, and on and on. AND THEN there are these issues dealing with annomlies in the cab and how to compensate for these (this opens up YET again, a countless varity of solutions including time-crrenction, extensive EQ's, DSP, etc.). In the home, we ALMOST ALWAYS assume a small/meduim to large listening room where these anomolies are frankly just not present. I could go on and on and on (all night) about the differences between home audio and car audio. True, home audio people choose their systems based on the msuic they wish to play and to a smalled degree on the room the have allocated (and of course their budget). But this DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN to compare with the complexities of car audio. Look, there is a REASON why almost EVERY car audio system, from entry level to multi-kilio-buck system differs in at least some way. I can say with almost certainty, no car audio systems (other than factory systems, of course) are EXACTLY the same as any other car audi system. This is certainly not the case in the home audio world. Is this because of all the "cunfusuion" you percieve out there (it sounds like it)? Is this because there is so much msiinformation in the car audio world that everyone is being pulled in 20 different diferections? Is this a purposfule attmept by manafacutres to confuse those new to car audio and hope to fill their mind with what THEY (a particular manufacture) think is important in an attempt to sell their own product? No. Again, it is FAR more complicated. IT deals with some of the things I;ve already meantioned. Every car is different. Every perosn puts differnet demands on their car that sets certain limitations on what can be added (or subtracted). Every peron listens to differnt types of mucic and therefore the system should be tailored to this desire. And an even deeper question (grasshopper), what is the very "role" music plays for people. This must be undertood as well. Is it a casual backaground thing, is it for competion, or is it because msuic is their ruling passion? All these questions make selection of a car audio system MONUMENTALY DIFFIVULT, with dozens (if not hundereds) of variables thrown into the mix. You just seem liek you want to simplifiy something that cannot be simplfied. It's like making a decion to buy art. You must first educate yourself to the world of art. Then you must ask your self if what you seek is an investment or something you wish to give you pleasure or meaning in your life (or something in between) when you observe. Where are the rules there? Where are the stadards in which all art pieces can be compared? They cannot be. I happen to collect art, actually, and it took many years to learn about what I TRULY found interesting and important to me. I was confused at first, but this confusion only drive me to explore more. Car audio IS similar to this to some degree. All these factors must be wieghed before a decision can be made. Well, that was long winded. But I want to conclude by adding, again, my caution to you that anything related to art and MUSIC cannot be neatly packaged, measured, or quatified. And I must tell you that what draws me MOST to the world of car audio is the fact that NOBODY has the identical system (unlike the home audio world). There is creativity, even genius, in what I have seen created in car. This facinates me, and it is TRULY what keeps me interested in car audio (the diversity). Could we make things a bit easier for the newbie? Perhaps. And as I stated before I think some of your ideas are good ones. But as you used the tunes craze to compare the downfall of SQ, I usee the world of art to compare the car stereo industry. There is myth, misundertandings, GREATLY INFLATED PRICES that surround the world of art. I see this to a lesser degree in thw world of car audio, jsut not so subjective. I mean, there is no THD that can be compared between paintings. The needs of people to buy art as well as stereo gear take SO MANY FORMS!!!! This has always been my main point. IT IS complicated, and franfly Pious, I like it that way. Ever Optimisstic, MOSFET Yes, this is all very complicated and the newbie is almost always confused. But as I stated above, the complexities of the car auido environment are exponetially more complicated than the home audio realm. |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a nice record is ooooh so nice sounding. -- vfootballphs |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
"vfootballphs" wrote in message ... Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a nice record is ooooh so nice sounding. -- vfootballphs I concur, And there's stuff out there on vinyl that you just can't get on CD now. Another thing is that vinyl has OUTLIVED CD already. The pigments in early CD 's are failing quickly and are un-playable, as in no-go. At least with analog media the information is still there albeit noisy, sometimes in archival, that's all that counts! Chad |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
I will make a true confession. I have owned several good Technics
turntables in my life (of moderate quality). But I have NEVER listened to or owned a high-end turntable/arm/cartridge playing well-mastered records on a REALLY good system. Perhaps if I did I might have a different perception about the merits of vinyl. But until I do, the lure is not enough to make me want to go out and spend $2,000 on a good turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination. I guess I must admit I really don't know if this "vinyl-worship" is truly warranted. Though I have always been suspicious that it is the "flaws" inherent in vinyl that add to the allure. For instance, a 60 inch TV looks better from 20 feet away than from two feet away. My car-audio system picks up every flaw in an older piece of music, yet when the same piece is played on a stock system these flaws seem to disappear (to the point that very old recording will sometimes sound BETTER on a poorer system). I am suspicious that the lower fidelity, vinyl medium, hides flaws by the nature of it's limited bandwidth. I fear this is partly the reason vinyl "seems" to sound so good. The deeper we probe, the more flaws we see. It's simple. Vinyl, IMHO, does not probe too deep. OK, I now I've opened myself up here. Let the rebuttals fly! MOSFET "vfootballphs" wrote in message ... Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a nice record is ooooh so nice sounding. -- vfootballphs |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
Oh, rats. Are we done?
This was fun. Oh well, good luck in your business venture. Remember, the glass is always half-full. MOSFET |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
i find it hard to do my scratching on those cd players..uuuugghhh! ok
player. |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
MOSFET wrote: Oh, rats. Are we done? This was fun. Oh well, good luck in your business venture. Remember, the glass is always half-full. MOSFET Yeah, I had created a really good response to your second-to-last post, but then I accidentally erased it, and didn't feel like retyping everything. I will give a quick outline: 1) Judging art: Of course it can be done. Art is judged on many levels, and only amatures would attempt to say that art cannot be defined or judged. 2) All cars are different: We're talking about entry-level, pre-built, systems. You're talking about perfection. Home theater in a box is never the "perfect" home entertainment solution, but it is almost always a "good enough" solution. What I'm saying is that car audio doesn't have a "good enough" solution. 3) It will happen: The best opportunities in business always exist in an environment in which the old guard says "that will never work". The question isn't whether it will happen, but how. Will the manufacturers handle it on their own terms? Will retailers put together their own packages? Will Wal Mart start demanding bundles at deep discounts? There is no question that somebody will take on this project, if only because there aren't that many marketing channels left. If "car stereo system in a box" isn't the next wave, then what is? |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Phoenix Gold at it's end?
3) It will happen: The best opportunities in business always exist in
an environment in which the old guard says "that will never work". The question isn't whether it will happen, but how. Will the manufacturers handle it on their own terms? Will retailers put together their own packages? Will Wal Mart start demanding bundles at deep discounts? There is no question that somebody will take on this project, if only because there aren't that many marketing channels left. If "car stereo system in a box" isn't the next wave, then what is? OH GOOD! Here we go again.... Yes, every open opportunity in the market always finds someone who will fill it. Even when others say "it can't be done", there are those who LOVE to prove them wrong. These people usually either go broke in the effort or become wildly rich. I believe strongly in the free-market system and that if a better mouse trap can be made, someone will make it. Frankly, I WOULD like to agree with you. I REALLY would. I DO see a niche that has yet to be filled in an "entry-level-car-audio-system-in-a-box". But the variables I listed before (I won't go through ALL of them again) make this difficult if not impossible. I am leaning towards IMPOSSIBLE. Perhaps an analogy that might better fit is someone who wishes to add central air-conditioning to their home. If he/she knows a lot about air-conditioning (we'll use the air conditioning system to represent the stereo system) and construction (we'll use the house to represent the car) he/she might be able to do it themselves. But it is complicated and there are LOTS of variables. Every house is different. Every air-conditioning system is different. MOST people will need a contractor (installer) to do it for them, OR they do a TON of research and become experts themselves. I believe this DOES represent a good analogy. Has anyone yet built a "central-air-in-a-box" that ANYONE can install themselves. No. True, you can do lesser things like a window mounted unit (this might represent swapping out a HU) yourself, but a full-blown system requires some expertise. Since you operate a mail-order business I get the feeling through ALL your posts that you are subtly (sometimes not so subtly) suggesting that experts just SHOULDN'T be necessary. You seem to be suggesting that ANYONE should be able to install this "system-in-a-box". I think your economic interests are blinding you to the cold hard facts. Don't be offended. I would probably feel EXACTLY the same thing if I were in your shoes. I guess you and I, Pious, are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Take care, MOSFET |
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