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Posted to rec.audio.car
Captain Howdy
 
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Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article , (Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1



  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
RG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more difficult
to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and smaller ones)
than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter a menu just to
change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU in my 2002 Civic
Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark. My new Excelon
deck requires far too much attention if I want to make adjustments while
driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it sounds great though.
Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of user friendliness and
intuitive operation. At least they are thinking about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with don't
integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a large
number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these factory
systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers
include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper
(on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince
a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and
get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all
but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as
well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they
were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and
fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS
TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at
the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole
import tuner craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the
one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and
the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be
fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a
choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR
emphasize performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever
since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1





  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
RG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today that
Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is why
they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually scaling
back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market share at a
different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others duke it out in
the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market.

- RG

"RG" wrote in message
...
One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more
difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and
smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to enter
a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The factory HU
in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark.
My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I want to make
adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But hey, it
sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large degree of
user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are thinking
about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with
don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a
large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of these
factory systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto
manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper
(on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you
convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend
$100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to
be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has
all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you
could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE
around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good.
Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and
neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc.
IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean,
look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when
the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There are many
reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest has to do
with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and the fact that
we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people began to feel
they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and not give a
damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything that's heavy
(like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever
since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1









  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed, Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=

1


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Oh, yea ... and I'll bet that the increase in leasing cars vs buying
outright hasn't helped much either. And an Alpine dealer told me today
that Alpine sees the market going in a different direction. Maybe that is
why they did not invest heavily in their HU line this year, actually
scaling back on many costly features. Maybe they want to capture market
share at a different price point and let Pioneer and some of the others
duke it out in the dwindling high dollar CD/MP3 receiver market.

- RG


That's a REALLY good point. Alpine HAS been lowering price points for all
it's models and has indeed been scaling back on features. As RG has said,
perhaps consumer feedback indicates that most people DO find these new decks
too complicated and would prefer a simpler set of features.

Something I should have added on my previous post, the domeinance of MP3
CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED AS A ANOTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNFALL OF SQ. As we all
know, the MP3 format is inferior in SQ to CD or DVD, yet it has become very
POPULAR, in large part to the UNBELIEVABLY popular iPod. This shift (from
SQ to convience) may have much to do with the decline in high-end
manufacturer's like PG and why companies like Alpine are scaling back
features that were typically considered high-end (like time correction for
instance). Companies are just not emphasising SQ anymore b/c they know many
people these days will be listening to MP3's.

I've said this before, but you should hear how home stereo Audiophiles moan
and groan when the topic of MP3's comes up. Many think the MP3 format is
SINGLE-HANDEDLY destrying new innovations in sound quality and MP3 is
CERTAINLY hampering the introduction of new formats such as DVD-Audio. Many
believe that the entire audio industry as a whole is moving backwards when
it comes to SQ. And I hate to admitt it, but I'm guilty of this shift
backwards as well. MP3's are all I listen to any more in my car. I suppose
the answer to all this is to ome up with an equivalant format that has the
same (OR BETTER) sound quality of CD, yet has all the benefits of MP3 (small
file sizes, easy to transfer and manage, etc.).

But for the masses, I'm afraid MP3 is adequate and here to stay (whether we
like it or not).

MOSFET



"RG" wrote in message
...
One of the worst trends I see is the aftermarket HU's getting more
difficult to use. The manufacturers are using even less buttons (and
smaller ones) than they did in the past. Some of them require you to
enter a menu just to change the radio station to another preset. The
factory HU in my 2002 Civic Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even
in the dark. My new Excelon deck requires far too much attention if I
want to make adjustments while driving. And the buttons are too small.But
hey, it sounds great though. Blaupunkts seem to have retained a large
degree of user friendliness and intuitive operation. At least they are
thinking about that aspect.
And some of the flashy (gaudy ?) designs they have been coming up with
don't integrate all that well with car interiors which probably causes a
large number of people to just keep their factory units. And some of
these factory systems really are getting quite good.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto
manufacturers include ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been
cheaper (on a dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can
you convince a consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can
spend $100 and get EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to
be going strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ
has all but disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago
you could look through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE
around as well) and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good.
Sure, they were clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and
neon, and fiberglass, and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS,
etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I
mean, look at the time-line, IASCA started dying around 1997 or so,
right when the whole import tuner craze started getting going. There
are many reasons why the one replaced the other, but one of the biggest
has to do with weight and the emphasis on making the car lighter, and
the fact that we all can't be fiberglass experts. I think many people
began to feel they had to make a choice: either be an SPL competitor and
not give a damn about weight OR emphasize performance and anything
that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers) MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity
that truly peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline
ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1








  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Vivek
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

The first day after that tiring weekend installing the gear, we are amazed
to listen to that good SQ system and we tell the family to not to wait for
dinner I need to finish this thing first. Instead you are just listening to
the SQ. Do we give the same attention to the sound when driving as in
garage.

After some time/days/weeks the focus shifts to, "I could have had an MP3
unit in the same price and had more songs to listen to". Convenience per $
is greater than SQ/$ There are so many things in the car to tweak to get the
sound that right and sometime a thought comes in (audiophiles may not like
it, but) why the effort and extra use of $$, when I already have a great
home audio system to ponder on without the noise, full concentration to the
audio not wheel and remote in hand, ass on couch. Convenience does matter.

"MOSFET" wrote in message
news | That's a REALLY good point. Alpine HAS been lowering price points for all
| it's models and has indeed been scaling back on features. As RG has said,
| perhaps consumer feedback indicates that most people DO find these new
decks
| too complicated and would prefer a simpler set of features.
|
| Something I should have added on my previous post, the domeinance of MP3
| CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED AS A ANOTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNFALL OF SQ. As we
all
| know, the MP3 format is inferior in SQ to CD or DVD, yet it has become
very
| POPULAR, in large part to the UNBELIEVABLY popular iPod. This shift (from
| SQ to convience) may have much to do with the decline in high-end
| manufacturer's like PG and why companies like Alpine are scaling back
| features that were typically considered high-end (like time correction for
| instance). Companies are just not emphasising SQ anymore b/c they know
many
| people these days will be listening to MP3's.
|
| I've said this before, but you should hear how home stereo Audiophiles
moan
| and groan when the topic of MP3's comes up. Many think the MP3 format is
| SINGLE-HANDEDLY destrying new innovations in sound quality and MP3 is
| CERTAINLY hampering the introduction of new formats such as DVD-Audio.
Many
| believe that the entire audio industry as a whole is moving backwards when
| it comes to SQ. And I hate to admitt it, but I'm guilty of this shift
| backwards as well. MP3's are all I listen to any more in my car. I
suppose
| the answer to all this is to ome up with an equivalant format that has the
| same (OR BETTER) sound quality of CD, yet has all the benefits of MP3
(small
| file sizes, easy to transfer and manage, etc.).
|
| But for the masses, I'm afraid MP3 is adequate and here to stay (whether
we
| like it or not).
|
| MOSFET


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
RG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I
must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking
it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my
parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real
quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for
navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav
could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the
benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=

1




  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

I use my video screen ALL the time. It makes a great way to see all my MP3
titles at one time, and an easier way to scroll through a disc full of mp3
titles. I can play MP3's through both my HU (an Alpine 9853) or my DVD
player, but I generally prefer to listen through the DVD player because of
the screen and being able to see all the titles (I can scroll down like a
computer to find the title I want).

But no, I NEVER watch DVD's in my car. I thought perhaps passengers might
on a long trip, but no, it NEVER gets used that way.

But I think you two (Howdy and RG) would change your opinion about video
screens if you had a screen to manage your MP3 titles.

MOSFET

"RG" wrote in message
...
What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and
I must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in
thinking it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies
in my parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always
get real quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes
for navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps.
Nav could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs
the benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly.
As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and
get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and
fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...ry6.html?page=
1








  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

I'm waiting for the SPL people to start complaining about how they can't
hear anything anymore. I wonder how much they will enjoy music then?
--
I. Care


Yes, looking ahead, Phoenix Gold would be wise to diversify their product
line and start building hearing-aides as well as amplifiers.

MOSFET


  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

In car video is one thing that I can do without, I can beat my meat to a porn
movie at home. Navigation for me is a no can do without. My wife just doesn't
understand the idea of how maps work, and around the Toronto area one wrong
turn can cost you can hour during rush hour as the highways around Toronto
become parking lots.

Our first trip to Florida was a nightmare because of my wife's lack of mapping
skills, and this is what drove me to spend the $1500 at that time on a
navigation system. The thing I like the best about the navigation system other
then not getting lost is that it gives me a phone number of the motels/hotels,
restaurants along my route and the money you can save just by being able to
find a hotel a few miles from the interstate is awesome.




In article , "RG"
wrote:
What .... ? You don't see a need or the point of video in a car ? You and I
must be the only ones who think this way. I thought I was alone in thinking
it is assinine and a waste of money. Like I want to watch movies in my
parked car ... why ?? When I mention this to a dealer they always get real
quiet and look at me like I'm from Mars or something. Same goes for
navigation screen s for the most part. Whatever happened to road maps. Nav
could come in handy in certain instances but the cost far outweighs the
benefits.

- RG


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL
competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems
for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I
just
don't see the need or point behind it.


The one thing that I have learned about car audio is that there are no
shortcuts when it comes to quality gear. I have had many disappointments
with
cheap gear (mostly amps and subs) and spent a ****load of money learning
from
my mistakes.

I know that the big import tuner craze in Canada was started by the
insurance
companies. They wouldn't insure many new driver's on muscle cars or any
car
with a bigger engine then a 4 cylinder. Little did they know? Back in
those
days you couldn't find any performance parts for import or domestic
soapbox
cars.

The good news is the PG is not dead and has been bought by a company that
wants to stay anonymous for the time being. My bets are on Directed,
Fosgate,
and Mitek.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for
high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition
did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on
a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for
the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be
going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could
look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the
time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis
on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and
amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about
the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that
truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...tory6.html?pag

e=
1




  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Wha Wha did you say ?

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
I'm waiting for the SPL people to start complaining about how they can't
hear anything anymore. I wonder how much they will enjoy music then?
--
I. Care


Yes, looking ahead, Phoenix Gold would be wise to diversify their product
line and start building hearing-aides as well as amplifiers.

MOSFET


  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Brandonb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

I use mine nearly every day. I watch TV episodes on DVD or movies during
my lunch break as they refuse to acknowledge the TV in the breakroom is
broken. Each episode lasts about 45 minutes, so I get about 15 minutes
to run and get food, then watch it while sitting in front of the
building. I also use it on long car trips for passengers sometimes.
Usually I just listen to XM in that case though. Navigation would be
cool, but I can't justify the cost when a map works, as well as pulling
up mapquest or google maps on my PDA phone.

Brandonb


Captain Howdy wrote:
Myself, as far as competitions go, I'm all SPL only because SPL competitions
are based on fact and not opinion. I just don't feel that anyone is godly
enough to write the rules on what sounds good or bad. I build my systems for
both SPL and SQ. But I must say that I am totally anti in car video. I just
don't see the need or point behind it.

  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Chad Wahls
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


RG wrote:
The factory HU in my 2002 Civic
Si was a joy to use and very intuitive, even in the dark.


HEH, I own an EP3 too, an '04.

Chad



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Pious Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


MOSFET wrote:
Thanks for the info, Howdy, I didn't know they were doing THAT poorly. As
you probably know, I worked for PG in the early part of the decade.

The article said: "Managers said at the meeting that the market for high-end
aftermarket car stereos has been declining, as auto manufacturers include
ever-better sound systems in their new models".

That is only part of the problem. Frankly, I think foreign competition did
them in. Let's face it, right now amplifiers have never been cheaper (on a
dollar per watt basis) or better. How in the world can you convince a
consumer to spend $300 on a 200 watt PG amp when he can spend $100 and get
EXACTLY the same power from a Sony amp.

And there's something else too. Something that's been bothering me for the
last 6 years or so. The focus on SPL and SPL competitions seems to be going
strong and getting stronger every year. But the focus on SQ has all but
disappeared it seems like to me. For instance, 10 years ago you could look
through any car stereo magazine (there are fewer of THOSE around as well)
and find cars that were STRICTLY designed to sound good. Sure, they were
clean, but you didn't see all this "tuner" crap, and neon, and fiberglass,
and superchargers, and turbochargers, and NOS, etc. IT SEEMS TO ME THE
WHOLE TUNER CRAZE HAS PUSHED SQ TO THE SIDE. I mean, look at the time-line,
IASCA started dying around 1997 or so, right when the whole import tuner
craze started getting going. There are many reasons why the one replaced
the other, but one of the biggest has to do with weight and the emphasis on
making the car lighter, and the fact that we all can't be fiberglass
experts. I think many people began to feel they had to make a choice:
either be an SPL competitor and not give a damn about weight OR emphasize
performance and anything that's heavy (like a sub enclosure and amplifiers)
MUST GO!

Of course, there will always be people like myself who care deeply about the
sound quality of their car. But PG rode a wave of SQ popularity that truly
peaked in the mid-nineties, and has been in steady decline ever since.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.
jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060524005685&news Lang=en


In article ,
(Captain
Howdy) wrote:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/port...y6.html?page=1


As we've tried to build our retail operation, we've learned quite a lot
about this industry very quickly. First, the industry is going to have
to throw off some companies because the market is simply saturated with
product.

Imagine being a guy who doesn't have a electrical engineering degree,
who didn't really grow up with car audio, who loves music and wants a
kick ass system -- what does this cat have to go through to get a great
sounding system at a good price? If he came to this message board he'd
get steem rolled with information that was way over his head (and
conflicting). He could read one of the car audio magazines that he
could find at Boarders...oh, they only have one at Boarders! If he did
buy the magazine, he'd see a laundry list of manufacturers and longer
lists of models and meaningless (to him) lists of specs for the models.


This dude ends up going to Wal Mart, picking up some Sony Xplod, and
will probably be pretty happy. Well, until he comes across a guy with
Kicker who says it's the shiznit, and he runs out and buys a bunch of
Kicker stuff. He can't tell the difference, but at least he *feels*
like he has a better system. Then somebody tells him Kicker blows and
that he really needs some Kappas. After buying a few systems and
spending more money than he ever wanted to, ol' boy buys a car with a
factory Bose system, realizes that it sounds about as good as anything
else and gives up on car audio.

Could you imagine if there were over 200 different makes of cars (like
there is in the car amplifier world)? The industry needs to be cut
down to a more reasonable level of competition so that prices can be
set at a sustainable level (when I was selling items for 5% over cost,
I sold more than I could handle but made no money. When I moved to 30%
over, it became worth it to sell things, but people bought from
Etronics instead...at 5% over cost). This will happen in time, because
if I can't make any money selling car audio, then the manufacturers
can't make money either and they will start dropping off.

The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that
operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up
specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they
almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to
be trusted.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Pious

  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Vivek
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Yes every body has bought one of the average brands (to start with), only a
subset of them moved to higher brands. Overflowing pockets may start with
the high-end directly but how many overflowing pockets are out there
anyways.

On the same line how many people will afford the cost of a fully commercial
free channels. Not the average consumer! All companies will end up having
both average / high-end; cheap / robust systems for us.

Well Said Pious


"Pious Audio" wrote in message
ups.com...
| The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
| the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
| and understandable to the average consumer.

| Pious


  #18   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
bob wald
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

youve convensed me. since theyre all the same i'm going all pyle..ty
no kicker/infinity/nakamishi /alpine/rf/clarion/jlaudio for me.

  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

The companies that will survive and do really well are those who ignore
the 'audiophiles' and instead work to make their product user friendly
and understandable to the average consumer. Also, those companies that
operate with some honesty will do better than those with trumped up
specs. Right now even if a newbie learns what all the specs mean they
almost instantly learn that the specs are highly manipulated and not to
be trusted.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Pious


I agree with many things you said. It made me think about how I learned
about car audio and how my first system was built. I had my first system
built in 1990 by Magnolia Hi-Fi in Portland, OR and I knew ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING about car audio (though I did know a lot about home stereo systems).
I was lucky to have a VERY patient salesman who explained MANY things to me
and steered me into a Kenwood CD HU (I had gone in thinking I wanted
cassette, dumb, dumb, dumb), a Rockford Fosgate Punch 75 amp driving a 12"
RF sub, and Boston Acoustics speakers. I was VERY pleased with my first
system and glad he guided me towards good brands (I had never even HEARD of
Rockford Fosgate before going to that store).

This was before the days of the internet and after I bought that first
system (and had caught the car audio bug) I actually learned TONS from car
audio magazines, in fact, most of the basics that I know today I learned
from magazines. But one thing I've noticed is that the car audio magazines
like CA&E, CSR, and AS&S were VERY different back then. They were filled
with information for the DIY, explanations of basic electrical principles,
how to remove door panels, how to swap out a HU, and on and on. They were
full of info for the newbie. When I flip through TODAY'S car audio
magazines there is none of this. They are just filled with fancy imports
full of fiberglass and expensive products that VERY FEW could afford and
CERTAINLY does not represent anything like a "starter system". I also
notice that these magazines are MUCH thinner (fewer pages) than they used to
be. Anyway, I agree that for a person looking to learn about car audio,
these days car audio magazines ARE NOT the way to go.

I think there are some EXCELLENT resources on the internet where a person
can learn about car audio. This group's own FAQ makes an EXCELLENT tutorial
for the newbie. And what you don't learn from the FAQ, this group can
answer ALMOST ANY question one might have (I can't count how many times the
guys on this group have answered important questions I have had).

Yes, sometimes there seems like there is too much information and
conflicting information everywhere you look, but frankly I think THERE HAS
NEVER BEEN A BETTER time to learn about and build your first system. Prices
have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of
information, you just have to slowly sift through it.

MOSFET


  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Pious Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

snip
MOSFET wrote:
Prices
have never been lower and like I said, the internet makes a great source of
information, you just have to slowly sift through it.

MOSFET


I certainly wouldn't argue that an enterprising newbie couldn't learn
every bit of what they needed to know to build a great system today.
What I am saying is that the industry can't expect the public to do
that en mass. In the car industry, since I used that example before,
they make it clear to the average consumer what they can expect from
each product (MPG, Horsepower, Standard/Automatic, A/C -- and so on),
the audio industry does a terrible job at relaying that sort of basic
information about its products.

It's pretty well known that MPG is measured on flat tracks at 55-65
MPH, windows up a/c off. Even car audio experts can't make a sweeping
statement about how an Amps power rating is determined without first
explaining that each manufacturer does it their own way, and that
technique may vary depending upon which model is being tested and what
price point the model is supposed to hit.

The industry can either be elitist (awarding those who are willing to
invest great deals of time in learning what's what), or they can sell
tons of stuff at good prices. It's difficult to do both.

Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in
popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells
you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power
programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using
their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of
rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by
dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'.



  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in
popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells
you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power
programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using
their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of
rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by
dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'.

Yes, but the ENTIRE audio industry is like that, just look at the home audio
industry. For instance, they sell these $250 Shakti stones (and they REALLY
ARE just small rocks) that when put on top of stereo gear, will APPARENTLY
make your stuff sound better. People buy these stones, LOTS OF PEOPLE.
This is just one small example. There is so much myth when it comes to
high-end home audio, it's ridiculous. People happily spend THOUSANDS on a
pair of interconnects or speaker cables and will tell you that one pair of
interconnects sound more "open" than another pair.

My point is that there has ALWAYS been a certain amount of subjectivity and
"art" to the world of audio. People like it that way. You really can't
compare audio products to car performance enhancement products for this
reason.

Now, I am NOT saying that I buy into all the high-end audio lore (I don't
use tube-traps, or Margio Dots, and I most certainly DO NOT USE A TURNTABLE,
THEY DO NOT SOUND BETTER THAN CD, NO WAY!!!). I agree that some
standardization in the car audio industry would help. But the problem with
that is (unlike HP, which all would agree is important) not everyone can
agree what is truly important in the world of audio. Again, I use the
high-end home audio world as an example, many people say that single-ended
triode tube amps are the VERY BEST SOUNDING AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD. Yet,
their THD and power ratings generally ALWAYS SUCK. We see this to a lesser
degree in the car audio world. Some think that this parameter is important
while others think this other parameter is important. There is no
universally agreed upon standard. There is no universally agreed upon
"REALLY GOOD SOUND". What sounds good to one person might sound terrible to
another. This makes any kind of rating or standardization difficult if not
impossible.

Again, it really boils down to the "art" factor that is involved in audio.
With cars, it's HP and MPH, THAT'S IT.

MOSFET


  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Pious Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


MOSFET wrote:
Look at the tuner craze -- why's it work and why has it grown in
popularity while the pursuit of SQ has all but dissappeared? K&N tells
you what the HP boost is from their cold air intakes, the power
programmer companies tell you exactly how many horsies you get by using
their product, it's easy to see the asthetic 'gains' from a set of
rims, and it's really easy to determine how much power is 'created' by
dropping weight. The public likes 'easy'.

Yes, but the ENTIRE audio industry is like that, just look at the home audio
industry. For instance, they sell these $250 Shakti stones (and they REALLY
ARE just small rocks) that when put on top of stereo gear, will APPARENTLY
make your stuff sound better. People buy these stones, LOTS OF PEOPLE.
This is just one small example. There is so much myth when it comes to
high-end home audio, it's ridiculous. People happily spend THOUSANDS on a
pair of interconnects or speaker cables and will tell you that one pair of
interconnects sound more "open" than another pair.

My point is that there has ALWAYS been a certain amount of subjectivity and
"art" to the world of audio. People like it that way. You really can't
compare audio products to car performance enhancement products for this
reason.

Now, I am NOT saying that I buy into all the high-end audio lore (I don't
use tube-traps, or Margio Dots, and I most certainly DO NOT USE A TURNTABLE,
THEY DO NOT SOUND BETTER THAN CD, NO WAY!!!). I agree that some
standardization in the car audio industry would help. But the problem with
that is (unlike HP, which all would agree is important) not everyone can
agree what is truly important in the world of audio. Again, I use the
high-end home audio world as an example, many people say that single-ended
triode tube amps are the VERY BEST SOUNDING AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD. Yet,
their THD and power ratings generally ALWAYS SUCK. We see this to a lesser
degree in the car audio world. Some think that this parameter is important
while others think this other parameter is important. There is no
universally agreed upon standard. There is no universally agreed upon
"REALLY GOOD SOUND". What sounds good to one person might sound terrible to
another. This makes any kind of rating or standardization difficult if not
impossible.

Again, it really boils down to the "art" factor that is involved in audio.
With cars, it's HP and MPH, THAT'S IT.

MOSFET


Mosfet -- you and I never agree.

Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying
otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system
than DBs.

The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all
the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops?
Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying
to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of
building cars comes in to play.

The difference for entry-level guys (in both worlds), is that it's very
easy to bring a 17 second stock automobile down to a 12 second street
racer that will even kick some ass at grudge night, because the
manufacturers have made their products mindlessly easy to choose and to
use. It is that level of user that the car audio industry is missing
out on. Here, we have guys who know nothing and have a hard time
getting anything done because of it, and guys who are semi-pros -- no
in-between.

The reason I focused on car audio is that I think that the same problem
doesn't exist for home audio. If a guy wants an entry level home audio
system, he can get a good "surround sound in a box" set up from Yamaha,
Bose, and cheaper versions from JVC, Pioneer and Sony (...). There is
no similar entry level scheme for car audio (that I'm aware of).

I'm not completely interested in the 'industry' settling this issue --
because this is where an enterprising retailer can set himself apart
from the competition by putting together his own 'packages' to take the
guess work out of putting together systems for the most commonly
desired affects.

  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Mosfet -- you and I never agree.

Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying
otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system
than DBs.

The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all
the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops?
Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying
to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of
building cars comes in to play.


I was simply looking at your analogy of car enhancement products and that
you stated HP gains are clearly indicated and understood by all. I was
MAINLY addressing the point that this is not a good analogy because "audio
enhancement products" can mean SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS to so many different
people. The scope of what encompasses "audio enhancement" is HUGE. To one
person it might mean an increase in dB, to another it might be the purchase
of those ridiculous Shakti stones and how that "opened up" his soundstage.
But in the world of cars, "performance enhancement" has a very concrete
meaning.

Now I'm not saying there is no "art" in the world of cars. Of course there
is. But I just think the analogy is a poor one.

Now you're a smart guy and obviously you know that the biggest reason there
can be no one-size-fits-all "entry level" car audio package (unlike a Yamaha
Home Theater In A Box) is that everyone drives different cars. That's it,
pure and simple. If we all drove the same car every car audio company could
simply offer their good, better, best package that would include HU,
speakers, and amps. Everything would be really simple, it would just be a
matter of deciding which brand to go with (like the home audio industry).
But of course it is much more complicated than that.

Overall, Pious, I think you are (again) being a little too pious. I think
most manufacturers do the best they can to simplify things to the average
(or new) consumer. I really don't see the car audio industry differing much
from other industries. Yes, those new to it will be confused at first.
What's new? You just seem WAY too pessimistic about things. I will say it
again, IMHO, there has never been a better time to learn about and get into
the world of car audio.

Ever Optimistic,
MOSFET




  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Pious Audio
 
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Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


MOSFET wrote:
Mosfet -- you and I never agree.

Obviously there is more to building a car than HP, and MPH. Saying
otherwise is like saying that there's nothing more to a stereo system
than DBs.

The thing is, though, that you only need to concern yourself with all
the rest of the automotive stuff (dome top pistons or flat tops?
Roller lifters? What Trans to match to that engine?) if you are trying
to build a trully fast car (-11 sec). That is when the "art" of
building cars comes in to play.


I was simply looking at your analogy of car enhancement products and that
you stated HP gains are clearly indicated and understood by all. I was
MAINLY addressing the point that this is not a good analogy because "audio
enhancement products" can mean SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS to so many different
people. The scope of what encompasses "audio enhancement" is HUGE. To one
person it might mean an increase in dB, to another it might be the purchase
of those ridiculous Shakti stones and how that "opened up" his soundstage.
But in the world of cars, "performance enhancement" has a very concrete
meaning.

Now I'm not saying there is no "art" in the world of cars. Of course there
is. But I just think the analogy is a poor one.

Now you're a smart guy and obviously you know that the biggest reason there
can be no one-size-fits-all "entry level" car audio package (unlike a Yamaha
Home Theater In A Box) is that everyone drives different cars. That's it,
pure and simple. If we all drove the same car every car audio company could
simply offer their good, better, best package that would include HU,
speakers, and amps. Everything would be really simple, it would just be a
matter of deciding which brand to go with (like the home audio industry).
But of course it is much more complicated than that.

Overall, Pious, I think you are (again) being a little too pious. I think
most manufacturers do the best they can to simplify things to the average
(or new) consumer. I really don't see the car audio industry differing much
from other industries. Yes, those new to it will be confused at first.
What's new? You just seem WAY too pessimistic about things. I will say it
again, IMHO, there has never been a better time to learn about and get into
the world of car audio.

Ever Optimistic,
MOSFET


You may be optimistic, but you try damn hard to make me wrong for no
good reason. Yep, every car is different, and so is every user. Every
living room is different, too -- yet Home Theater in a Box still exists
and brought home theater to the masses.

It's far from impossible for a manufacturer, or retailer as I said
before, to put together packages for the 10 top selling models of
cars/trucks for the previous five years (though models change every
year -- basic design only changes about every five years, so there's no
need to have different kits for each Camry - 1999-2004 would suffice).
You'd buy a kit from a choice of, say, three -- a rock n' roll kit, a
hip-hop kit, or a country kit, which included a head unit, install kit,
component speakers, amp and sub. No problem -- you've covered
literally millions of consumers buy designing 30 'car audio kits'. The
manufacturers already do this when they design their systems for stock
use (Bose, Infiniti and so on)...so there's no reason to believe that
it wouldn't be extremely easy for them to make the exact same 'kits'
(potentially a 'step-higher' in performance) available to the general
public who 1) didn't opt for the upgraded system when they bought their
car, or 2) want the 'step-up' from the upgraded system that they did
opt for.

It's just my opinion -- but this isn't a cottage industry, it's mass
production. If you're going to mass produce, and mass market, you have
to commit to it and do it as efficiently as possible.

  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

You may be optimistic, but you try damn hard to make me wrong for no
good reason.


LOL
Yes, it's a personality flaw if mine. My wife hates it. It's that "I
Always Have To Be Right" syndrome. It's terrible!! I'm sorry.

Yep, every car is different, and so is every user. Every
living room is different, too -- yet Home Theater in a Box still exists
and brought home theater to the masses.

It's far from impossible for a manufacturer, or retailer as I said
before, to put together packages for the 10 top selling models of
cars/trucks for the previous five years (though models change every
year -- basic design only changes about every five years, so there's no
need to have different kits for each Camry - 1999-2004 would suffice).
You'd buy a kit from a choice of, say, three -- a rock n' roll kit, a
hip-hop kit, or a country kit, which included a head unit, install kit,
component speakers, amp and sub. No problem -- you've covered
literally millions of consumers buy designing 30 'car audio kits'. The
manufacturers already do this when they design their systems for stock
use (Bose, Infiniti and so on)...so there's no reason to believe that
it wouldn't be extremely easy for them to make the exact same 'kits'
(potentially a 'step-higher' in performance) available to the general
public who 1) didn't opt for the upgraded system when they bought their
car, or 2) want the 'step-up' from the upgraded system that they did
opt for.

It's just my opinion -- but this isn't a cottage industry, it's mass
production. If you're going to mass produce, and mass market, you have
to commit to it and do it as efficiently as possible.


I know. And despite everything I have said I REALLY do agree with much of
what you said. Of course there are ways the industry (as a whole) could get
together and apply standards that would allow more interconectivity among
brands and clear-cut criterea in which all products could be judged and
compared.

However, do not so quickly minimize the importance of the fact we all drive
different types of cars. This fact adds COUNTLESS (and I DO MEAN LITTERALLY
COUNTLESS) variables when it comes to bulding a car audio system. Take for
instance how people USE their cars. Even if we narrowed our discussion to
the 5 top selling cars in the US, we run into problems with people who may
not be willing to give up cargo space for a subwoofer - this in turn creates
a whole realm of possiblities for bass reproduction products (sure to
confuse according to you) that take up little or no cargo/trunk space. In a
living room, however, space is generally not an issue. Let's face it, the
decision to have either a one cubic foot subwoofer or a two subic foot
subwoofer in the home would be a VERY uniportant decision for most. BUT IN
THE CAR, this decision might be HUGE as the user may need his PRECIOUS carge
space. This is just one small example of the complecites and differences
that exist between building a system in a car or in a home. And then add to
that, we must take into account the music the person listens to. This adds
it's own countless variables to the equations. What we have is varibables
within varibables. What I'm trying to get across to you is that this is so
much more complicated than the home stereo world. Here's a nother factor -
power requirments. In the home, everything works on 120 volt AC current,
which supllies more than aneough for even the largest systems. But in a
car, the demnands of the system frequenctly outstip available power (and
yes, this can frequentyl be a problem for the newbie and starter system).
And then a WHOLE NEW SET OF VARIBABLES arrise with the need for capactiors,
HO alternators, large guage cable, specialized batteries, and on and on.
AND THEN there are these issues dealing with annomlies in the cab and how to
compensate for these (this opens up YET again, a countless varity of
solutions including time-crrenction, extensive EQ's, DSP, etc.). In the
home, we ALMOST ALWAYS assume a small/meduim to large listening room where
these anomolies are frankly just not present. I could go on and on and on
(all night) about the differences between home audio and car audio. True,
home audio people choose their systems based on the msuic they wish to play
and to a smalled degree on the room the have allocated (and of course their
budget). But this DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN to compare with the complexities of
car audio.

Look, there is a REASON why almost EVERY car audio system, from entry level
to multi-kilio-buck system differs in at least some way. I can say with
almost certainty, no car audio systems (other than factory systems, of
course) are EXACTLY the same as any other car audi system. This is
certainly not the case in the home audio world. Is this because of all the
"cunfusuion" you percieve out there (it sounds like it)? Is this because
there is so much msiinformation in the car audio world that everyone is
being pulled in 20 different diferections? Is this a purposfule attmept by
manafacutres to confuse those new to car audio and hope to fill their mind
with what THEY (a particular manufacture) think is important in an attempt
to sell their own product?

No.

Again, it is FAR more complicated. IT deals with some of the things I;ve
already meantioned. Every car is different. Every perosn puts differnet
demands on their car that sets certain limitations on what can be added (or
subtracted). Every peron listens to differnt types of mucic and therefore
the system should be tailored to this desire. And an even deeper question
(grasshopper), what is the very "role" music plays for people. This must be
undertood as well. Is it a casual backaground thing, is it for competion,
or is it because msuic is their ruling passion? All these questions make
selection of a car audio system MONUMENTALY DIFFIVULT, with dozens (if not
hundereds) of variables thrown into the mix.

You just seem liek you want to simplifiy something that cannot be simplfied.
It's like making a decion to buy art. You must first educate yourself to
the world of art. Then you must ask your self if what you seek is an
investment or something you wish to give you pleasure or meaning in your
life (or something in between) when you observe. Where are the rules there?
Where are the stadards in which all art pieces can be compared? They cannot
be. I happen to collect art, actually, and it took many years to learn
about what I TRULY found interesting and important to me. I was confused at
first, but this confusion only drive me to explore more. Car audio IS
similar to this to some degree. All these factors must be wieghed before a
decision can be made.

Well, that was long winded. But I want to conclude by adding, again, my
caution to you that anything related to art and MUSIC cannot be neatly
packaged, measured, or quatified. And I must tell you that what draws me
MOST to the world of car audio is the fact that NOBODY has the identical
system (unlike the home audio world). There is creativity, even genius, in
what I have seen created in car. This facinates me, and it is TRULY what
keeps me interested in car audio (the diversity).

Could we make things a bit easier for the newbie? Perhaps. And as I stated
before I think some of your ideas are good ones. But as you used the tunes
craze to compare the downfall of SQ, I usee the world of art to compare the
car stereo industry. There is myth, misundertandings, GREATLY INFLATED
PRICES that surround the world of art. I see this to a lesser degree in thw
world of car audio, jsut not so subjective. I mean, there is no THD that
can be compared between paintings. The needs of people to buy art as well
as stereo gear take SO MANY FORMS!!!! This has always been my main point.
IT IS complicated, and franfly Pious, I like it that way.

Ever Optimisstic,

MOSFET

Yes, this is all very complicated and the newbie is almost always confused.
But as I stated above, the complexities of the car auido environment are
exponetially more complicated than the home audio realm.




  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
vfootballphs
 
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Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Chad Wahls
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


"vfootballphs" wrote in
message ...

Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs


I concur, And there's stuff out there on vinyl that you just can't get on
CD now. Another thing is that vinyl has OUTLIVED CD already. The pigments
in early CD 's are failing quickly and are un-playable, as in no-go. At
least with analog media the information is still there albeit noisy,
sometimes in archival, that's all that counts!

Chad


  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

I will make a true confession. I have owned several good Technics
turntables in my life (of moderate quality). But I have NEVER listened to
or owned a high-end turntable/arm/cartridge playing well-mastered records on
a REALLY good system. Perhaps if I did I might have a different perception
about the merits of vinyl. But until I do, the lure is not enough to make
me want to go out and spend $2,000 on a good turntable/tonearm/cartridge
combination. I guess I must admit I really don't know if this
"vinyl-worship" is truly warranted. Though I have always been suspicious
that it is the "flaws" inherent in vinyl that add to the allure. For
instance, a 60 inch TV looks better from 20 feet away than from two feet
away. My car-audio system picks up every flaw in an older piece of music,
yet when the same piece is played on a stock system these flaws seem to
disappear (to the point that very old recording will sometimes sound BETTER
on a poorer system). I am suspicious that the lower fidelity, vinyl medium,
hides flaws by the nature of it's limited bandwidth. I fear this is partly
the reason vinyl "seems" to sound so good. The deeper we probe, the more
flaws we see. It's simple. Vinyl, IMHO, does not probe too deep.

OK, I now I've opened myself up here. Let the rebuttals fly!

MOSFET

"vfootballphs" wrote in
message ...

Just to comment on the turntable comment....I have a good turntable from
back in the day and can honestly say that I prefer a good record over a
cd. Now, crappy records(ie. well worn or just crapily made) suck, but a
nice record is ooooh so nice sounding.


--
vfootballphs



  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

Oh, rats. Are we done?

This was fun. Oh well, good luck in your business venture. Remember, the
glass is always half-full.

MOSFET


  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
bob wald
 
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Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

i find it hard to do my scratching on those cd players..uuuugghhh! ok
player.



  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
Pious Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?


MOSFET wrote:
Oh, rats. Are we done?

This was fun. Oh well, good luck in your business venture. Remember, the
glass is always half-full.

MOSFET



Yeah, I had created a really good response to your second-to-last post,
but then I accidentally erased it, and didn't feel like retyping
everything. I will give a quick outline:

1) Judging art: Of course it can be done. Art is judged on many
levels, and only amatures would attempt to say that art cannot be
defined or judged.

2) All cars are different: We're talking about entry-level, pre-built,
systems. You're talking about perfection. Home theater in a box is
never the "perfect" home entertainment solution, but it is almost
always a "good enough" solution. What I'm saying is that car audio
doesn't have a "good enough" solution.

3) It will happen: The best opportunities in business always exist in
an environment in which the old guard says "that will never work". The
question isn't whether it will happen, but how. Will the manufacturers
handle it on their own terms? Will retailers put together their own
packages? Will Wal Mart start demanding bundles at deep discounts?
There is no question that somebody will take on this project, if only
because there aren't that many marketing channels left. If "car stereo
system in a box" isn't the next wave, then what is?

  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.car
MOSFET
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phoenix Gold at it's end?

3) It will happen: The best opportunities in business always exist in
an environment in which the old guard says "that will never work". The
question isn't whether it will happen, but how. Will the manufacturers
handle it on their own terms? Will retailers put together their own
packages? Will Wal Mart start demanding bundles at deep discounts?
There is no question that somebody will take on this project, if only
because there aren't that many marketing channels left. If "car stereo
system in a box" isn't the next wave, then what is?


OH GOOD! Here we go again....

Yes, every open opportunity in the market always finds someone who will fill
it. Even when others say "it can't be done", there are those who LOVE to
prove them wrong. These people usually either go broke in the effort or
become wildly rich.

I believe strongly in the free-market system and that if a better mouse trap
can be made, someone will make it. Frankly, I WOULD like to agree with you.
I REALLY would. I DO see a niche that has yet to be filled in an
"entry-level-car-audio-system-in-a-box".

But the variables I listed before (I won't go through ALL of them again)
make this difficult if not impossible. I am leaning towards IMPOSSIBLE.

Perhaps an analogy that might better fit is someone who wishes to add
central air-conditioning to their home. If he/she knows a lot about
air-conditioning (we'll use the air conditioning system to represent the
stereo system) and construction (we'll use the house to represent the car)
he/she might be able to do it themselves. But it is complicated and there
are LOTS of variables. Every house is different. Every air-conditioning
system is different. MOST people will need a contractor (installer) to do
it for them, OR they do a TON of research and become experts themselves.

I believe this DOES represent a good analogy. Has anyone yet built a
"central-air-in-a-box" that ANYONE can install themselves. No. True, you
can do lesser things like a window mounted unit (this might represent
swapping out a HU) yourself, but a full-blown system requires some
expertise.

Since you operate a mail-order business I get the feeling through ALL your
posts that you are subtly (sometimes not so subtly) suggesting that experts
just SHOULDN'T be necessary. You seem to be suggesting that ANYONE should
be able to install this "system-in-a-box". I think your economic interests
are blinding you to the cold hard facts. Don't be offended. I would
probably feel EXACTLY the same thing if I were in your shoes.

I guess you and I, Pious, are just going to have to agree to disagree on
this.

Take care,

MOSFET


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