[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

[Keith G]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)



I'm sure these boyz would like to know more about that:

http://www.iop.org/

:-)

[Don Pearce]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:10:06 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)



I'm sure these boyz would like to know more about that:

http://www.iop.org/

:-)

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that heat, it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Keith G]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:10:06 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW
of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)



I'm sure these boyz would like to know more about that:

http://www.iop.org/

:-)

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that heat, it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.


OK.

All I know about energy is you can't create it and you can't destroy
it - only move it about or store it and that it all ultimately comes (or
came) from the sun - no?

[Don Pearce]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:07:57 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that heat, it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.


OK.

All I know about energy is you can't create it and you can't destroy
it - only move it about or store it and that it all ultimately comes (or
came) from the sun - no?




Make that energy or mass - they are two sides of the same coin. As for
where it ultimately comes from, I guess the sun is just another
intermediary. It all happened with the big bang, and ever since then
energy has been bouncing around the universe, either as photons or
particles with mass.

Interesting thing to think about. If you wind up a spring so it stores
x amount of energy, then weigh it, it will be heavier than the unwound
spring (by the usual e = mc squared equation).

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Keith G]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:07:57 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that heat,
it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.


OK.

All I know about energy is you can't create it and you can't destroy
it - only move it about or store it and that it all ultimately comes
(or
came) from the sun - no?




Make that energy or mass - they are two sides of the same coin. As for
where it ultimately comes from, I guess the sun is just another
intermediary. It all happened with the big bang, and ever since then
energy has been bouncing around the universe, either as photons or
particles with mass.


OK.



Interesting thing to think about. If you wind up a spring so it stores
x amount of energy, then weigh it, it will be heavier than the unwound
spring (by the usual e = mc squared equation).


Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce* its
mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full of
music!! :-)

[Eeyore]

Laurence Payne wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

It's operating as a heat pump. Basically conventional 'air conditioning' in
reverse so it warms instead of cooling.

Graham

[Don Pearce]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:21:03 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:07:57 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that heat,
it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.


OK.

All I know about energy is you can't create it and you can't destroy
it - only move it about or store it and that it all ultimately comes
(or
came) from the sun - no?




Make that energy or mass - they are two sides of the same coin. As for
where it ultimately comes from, I guess the sun is just another
intermediary. It all happened with the big bang, and ever since then
energy has been bouncing around the universe, either as photons or
particles with mass.


OK.



Interesting thing to think about. If you wind up a spring so it stores
x amount of energy, then weigh it, it will be heavier than the unwound
spring (by the usual e = mc squared equation).


Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce* its
mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full of
music!! :-)



Well, I think you will enjoy this. Read and watch

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/bu...cle2737932.ece

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:
Only electric heaters are near 100% efficient.

Maybe at your end of the power cable. What about if you include
generation and transmission into the system?

Which part of 'heater' escaped you?

If you wish to include the mining and transmission of the fuel used either
to burnt directly or used to generate electricity it's a whole new ball
game.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce* its
mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full of
music!! :-)

Is that the way you think your LPs are made? ;-)

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Keith G]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:21:03 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:07:57 +0100, "Keith G"

wrote:

No - it's all Kosher, no free lunch. It doesn't generate that
heat,
it
just shifts it from one place to another - outdoors to indoors for
winter, the other way for summer.


OK.

All I know about energy is you can't create it and you can't destroy
it - only move it about or store it and that it all ultimately comes
(or
came) from the sun - no?




Make that energy or mass - they are two sides of the same coin. As
for
where it ultimately comes from, I guess the sun is just another
intermediary. It all happened with the big bang, and ever since then
energy has been bouncing around the universe, either as photons or
particles with mass.


OK.



Interesting thing to think about. If you wind up a spring so it
stores
x amount of energy, then weigh it, it will be heavier than the
unwound
spring (by the usual e = mc squared equation).


Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce*
its
mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full of
music!! :-)



Well, I think you will enjoy this. Read and watch

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/bu...cle2737932.ece



I could read and watch about half in each case, then the eyelids started
drooping....

(The accent didn't help! ;-)

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce*
its
mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full of
music!! :-)

Is that the way you think your LPs are made? ;-)


Plowie, for once and for all - will you kindly stop your ****ing stupid
'trying to catch me out' posts...??

Read these for starters:

http://www.madonnacatalog.com/guides/acetate.htm

http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.n...nyl8-part1.htm

....and learn...



--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.


First time your silly sig's ever said anything sensible....




Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:57:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Only electric heaters are near 100% efficient.

Maybe at your end of the power cable. What about if you include
generation and transmission into the system?

Which part of 'heater' escaped you?

If you wish to include the mining and transmission of the fuel used either
to burnt directly or used to generate electricity it's a whole new ball
game.

Indeed. And you have to, don't you?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and *reduce*
its mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it full
of music!! :-)

Is that the way you think your LPs are made? ;-)


Plowie, for once and for all - will you kindly stop your ****ing stupid
'trying to catch me out' posts...??

Think you can consider yourself caught out...

Read these for starters:

http://www.madonnacatalog.com/guides/acetate.htm

http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.n...nyl8-part1.htm

...and learn...

.....if you think that's the way the LPs your are made.

BTW, matey, I'll post what I want here. Regardless of what you think you
don't own this newsgroup or any other.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:57:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Only electric heaters are near 100% efficient.

Maybe at your end of the power cable. What about if you include
generation and transmission into the system?

Which part of 'heater' escaped you?

If you wish to include the mining and transmission of the fuel used
either to burnt directly or used to generate electricity it's a whole
new ball game.

Indeed. And you have to, don't you?

Yes. If only successive governments realised the same. The vast supplies
of natural gas we had - ideal for domestic heating - were wasted on
attempting to provide cheap electricity for a limited period. Now we'll
all pay the price of having to import the stuff.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Better than that - if you've got a certain plastic disk and
*reduce*
its mass in the correct manner (with a cutter), you can fill it
full
of music!! :-)

Is that the way you think your LPs are made? ;-)


Plowie, for once and for all - will you kindly stop your ****ing
stupid
'trying to catch me out' posts...??

Think you can consider yourself caught out...

Read these for starters:

http://www.madonnacatalog.com/guides/acetate.htm

http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.n...nyl8-part1.htm

...and learn...

....if you think that's the way the LPs your are made.

BTW, matey, I'll post what I want here. Regardless of what you think
you
don't own this newsgroup or any other.


You really are pathetic - you've been waiting weeks to trot that out,
haven't you?

Now **** off....

[jakdedert]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:
Only electric heaters are near 100% efficient.

Maybe at your end of the power cable. What about if you include
generation and transmission into the system?

Which part of 'heater' escaped you?

If you wish to include the mining and transmission of the fuel used either
to burnt directly or used to generate electricity it's a whole new ball
game.

As the thread has slipped into a discussion of conserving global
resources, overall efficiency from source to end-user seems germane.

That's where the thread was headed.

jak

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Plowie, for once and for all - will you kindly stop your ****ing
stupid
'trying to catch me out' posts...??

Think you can consider yourself caught out...

Read these for starters:

http://www.madonnacatalog.com/guides/acetate.htm

http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.n...nyl8-part1.htm

...and learn...

....if you think that's the way the LPs your are made.

BTW, matey, I'll post what I want here. Regardless of what you think
you
don't own this newsgroup or any other.


You really are pathetic - you've been waiting weeks to trot that out,
haven't you?

Trot out what? That you apparently don't know how LPs are made?

Or that I responded to you telling me what I can and can't post?

Now **** off....

And you've done it again.

Are you trying to rival Allison?

--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

**No need. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Are air conditioners so rare in the UK that you really don't understand the
efficiency gains that are possible? Here in Australia, some water heaters
are now available with heat pump operating systems, rather than resistive or
gas powered heaters (or Solar, of course).


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Trevor Wilson]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)



I'm sure these boyz would like to know more about that:

http://www.iop.org/

:-)

**Perhaps those boyz (and you) should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Trevor Wilson]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Trevor Wilson wrote:

Gas space heaters are somewhat better than your "boilers', it would seem,
as
they can be close to 100% efficient.

Not everyone wants their house filled with lots of CO2 and water vapour
though.

**All good points. I'll stick to air conditioning. It's a win-win.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:57:32 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

**No need. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Are air conditioners so rare in the UK that you really don't understand the
efficiency gains that are possible? Here in Australia, some water heaters
are now available with heat pump operating systems, rather than resistive or
gas powered heaters (or Solar, of course).


You didn't say "shift nearly 8KW". You said "produce".

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"
Phil Allison

**Good luck with that. Power switches tend to be VERY reliable.


** Nonsense - they are one of the more common failures in audio
equipment.

**Nope. Not even remotely close.


** You are simply WRONG.

**You are entitled to your opinion. My experience is limited to the 50-odd
thousand items I've actually worked on. Don't forget: My experience is
limited to (mostly) domestic audio equipment. I can only call it the way I
see it. Your experience may be different.




Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power switch
that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge rating is
exceeded with every second switch on cycle.

**Perhaps some of the less well known manufacturers operate that way.
Most of the larger manufacutrers, IME, choose approved and tested
switches.


** Got SFA to do with actual mechanical ruggedness or longevity in
service.

**Really? Does (say) Underwriter's Labs not perform repeated operations for
switches they test?


Do learn to read sometime - ARSEHOLE.

**Tsk, tsk. Keep a civil tongue in your head young man.





Fractures of internal metal and plastic parts is common - sometimes
leading to a short to the frame and a serious electrocution hazard if
all ground conductors are not intact.

**I've only seen such things on equpment which pre-dates around 1975.


** Then you have not seen much audio gear.

**Perhaps.




On some high powered amps using toroidal transformers ( no soft start)
the AC switch will eventually weld itself permanently on !!

**Indeed.


** The TW cretin now contradicts itself.

**Nope. Almost all the toroidal transformer equipped amps I see use TRIAC
switching and/or surge limit resistors. Very few domestic amps use toroidal
transformers.




The " push on - push off " switches used in so many items of audio gear
commonly fail open after internal metal parts get burned away at each
switch on. Same goes for mini rocker switches on many items where the
AC transformer is of a few hundred VA.

**I don't see such problems very often.


** Ignorance is not evidence - cretin.

**I merely listed MY experience. That does not invalidate your experience.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Trevor Wilson]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:57:32 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

**No need. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Are air conditioners so rare in the UK that you really don't understand
the
efficiency gains that are possible? Here in Australia, some water heaters
are now available with heat pump operating systems, rather than resistive
or
gas powered heaters (or Solar, of course).


You didn't say "shift nearly 8KW". You said "produce".

**OK. You're just being pedantic. Fair enough.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Eeyore]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Laurence Payne" wrote
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kWof heat from 2kW of electricity. My little
workshop one does 3.6kW of heat, for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

**No need. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Are air conditioners so rare in the UK that you really don't understand the
efficiency gains that are possible?

They are certainly quite rare. I bought a basic portable one last summer as it
was scorchingly hot. I've barely used it this year.

Graham

[Keith G]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"
Phil Allison

**Good luck with that. Power switches tend to be VERY reliable.


** Nonsense - they are one of the more common failures in audio
equipment.

**Nope. Not even remotely close.


** You are simply WRONG.

**You are entitled to your opinion. My experience is limited to the
50-odd thousand items I've actually worked on. Don't forget: My
experience is limited to (mostly) domestic audio equipment. I can only
call it the way I see it. Your experience may be different.




Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power
switch that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge
rating is exceeded with every second switch on cycle.

**Perhaps some of the less well known manufacturers operate that
way. Most of the larger manufacutrers, IME, choose approved and
tested switches.


** Got SFA to do with actual mechanical ruggedness or longevity in
service.

**Really? Does (say) Underwriter's Labs not perform repeated
operations for switches they test?


Do learn to read sometime - ARSEHOLE.

**Tsk, tsk. Keep a civil tongue in your head young man.


Heh heh! I've just used that over on the bike group!! :-)

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Plowie, for once and for all - will you kindly stop your ****ing
stupid
'trying to catch me out' posts...??

Think you can consider yourself caught out...

Read these for starters:

http://www.madonnacatalog.com/guides/acetate.htm

http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.n...nyl8-part1.htm

...and learn...

....if you think that's the way the LPs your are made.

BTW, matey, I'll post what I want here. Regardless of what you
think
you
don't own this newsgroup or any other.


You really are pathetic - you've been waiting weeks to trot that out,
haven't you?

Trot out what? That you apparently don't know how LPs are made?

Or that I responded to you telling me what I can and can't post?

Now **** off....

And you've done it again.

Are you trying to rival Allison?



I wonder if the tut-tutters here have latched on to the fact that all
your impertinent little responses to my posts are clumsy, pathetic
little attempts to start an argument?




--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Keith G]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:33:24 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW
of heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)



I'm sure these boyz would like to know more about that:

http://www.iop.org/

:-)

**Perhaps those boyz (and you) should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump



Better send it to them - too many *words* for me....

[Keith G]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:57:32 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

My air cons produce nearly 8kW
of heat from 2kW of electricity. My little workshop one does 3.6kW
of
heat,
for 820 Watts of electricity consumption.

Want to just run that past us again? :-)

**No need. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Are air conditioners so rare in the UK that you really don't
understand the
efficiency gains that are possible? Here in Australia, some water
heaters
are now available with heat pump operating systems, rather than
resistive or
gas powered heaters (or Solar, of course).


You didn't say "shift nearly 8KW". You said "produce".


Yes, he did - hence yours and my responses...

[Trevor Wilson]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"
Phil Allison

**Good luck with that. Power switches tend to be VERY reliable.


** Nonsense - they are one of the more common failures in audio
equipment.

**Nope. Not even remotely close.


** You are simply WRONG.

**You are entitled to your opinion. My experience is limited to the
50-odd thousand items I've actually worked on. Don't forget: My
experience is limited to (mostly) domestic audio equipment. I can only
call it the way I see it. Your experience may be different.




Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power
switch that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge rating
is exceeded with every second switch on cycle.

**Perhaps some of the less well known manufacturers operate that way.
Most of the larger manufacutrers, IME, choose approved and tested
switches.


** Got SFA to do with actual mechanical ruggedness or longevity in
service.

**Really? Does (say) Underwriter's Labs not perform repeated operations
for switches they test?


Do learn to read sometime - ARSEHOLE.

**Tsk, tsk. Keep a civil tongue in your head young man.


Heh heh! I've just used that over on the bike group!! :-)

**I'll betcha that it doesn't work here. In fact, there's a fiver, if my
response does not provoke more bad language.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Keith G]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"
Phil Allison

**Good luck with that. Power switches tend to be VERY reliable.


** Nonsense - they are one of the more common failures in
audio equipment.

**Nope. Not even remotely close.


** You are simply WRONG.

**You are entitled to your opinion. My experience is limited to the
50-odd thousand items I've actually worked on. Don't forget: My
experience is limited to (mostly) domestic audio equipment. I can
only call it the way I see it. Your experience may be different.




Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power
switch that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge
rating is exceeded with every second switch on cycle.

**Perhaps some of the less well known manufacturers operate that
way. Most of the larger manufacutrers, IME, choose approved and
tested switches.


** Got SFA to do with actual mechanical ruggedness or longevity in
service.

**Really? Does (say) Underwriter's Labs not perform repeated
operations for switches they test?


Do learn to read sometime - ARSEHOLE.

**Tsk, tsk. Keep a civil tongue in your head young man.


Heh heh! I've just used that over on the bike group!! :-)

**I'll betcha that it doesn't work here. In fact, there's a fiver, if
my response does not provoke more bad language.


Ah, not in exactly the same way - I said:

"Tsk tsk, Mumsy - your complete *lack* of breeding is shining
through...."

....to a puffed-up, flabby little **** who thinks he's the be-all and
end-all of one of the creepiest little groups on Usenet! (Or as Plowie
would say - he thinks he *owns* it!)

It's already got a response from some twerp who thinks I don't know how
the **** falls in the cheesy UK bike groups - like I haven't drifted in
and out of them when the fancy takes me, over the last gawd knows how
many years!!

(Cue Elrond crossposting this now - he usually does....)

[dizzy]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Ah. How wasteful. A space heater would be better.

No, it would not. Where do you think the electricity comes from?

**Not all space heaters require electricity.

Magically 100% efficient coal-burning plants?.

**Not all electricity is derived from coal-buring plants.

90% efficiency is not bad, guy.

**ALL my heaters convert electricity into heat with nearly 100% efficiency.
NOTHING is wasted.

Wow! Good for you! Now, tell me how efficient the generators at your
electrical plant are!

Sheesh!

There are no magical 100% efficient heaters that aren't getting a
"free ride" from something upstream, guy.

I'll say it again: 90% efficiency is not bad. Remember that I'm
speaking of gas or oil-burners, for which there is generally NO
practical replacement in colder climates (except "100% efficient"
electric heat, and most electricity has to be generated by burning
something anyway).

A electic space heater is NOT clearly "less wasteful" than 90%
efficient gas heat, despite the fact the electric heater itself is
100% efficient.

Get it now?

[dizzy]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:
Only electric heaters are near 100% efficient.

Maybe at your end of the power cable. What about if you include
generation and transmission into the system?

Which part of 'heater' escaped you?

If you wish to include the mining and transmission of the fuel used either
to burnt directly or used to generate electricity it's a whole new ball
game.

We must play that ball game, when some snooty snob (not you) says "how
wasteful" when the issue of 90% efficient furnaces comes up, and brags
about his "nothing is wasted" space heaters.

[Trevor Wilson]

"dizzy" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Ah. How wasteful. A space heater would be better.

No, it would not. Where do you think the electricity comes from?

**Not all space heaters require electricity.

Magically 100% efficient coal-burning plants?.

**Not all electricity is derived from coal-buring plants.

90% efficiency is not bad, guy.

**ALL my heaters convert electricity into heat with nearly 100%
efficiency.
NOTHING is wasted.

Wow! Good for you! Now, tell me how efficient the generators at your
electrical plant are!

**No idea. How efficient are wind turbines and water turbines? All my energy
is guaranteed to be delivered by my supplier via renewable means. Of course,
early next year, most (maybe all) of my electrical power will be generated
by my own Solar array (hopefully). I expect gross effiency will be around
12%.


Sheesh!

There are no magical 100% efficient heaters that aren't getting a
"free ride" from something upstream, guy.

**Correct. That's why it is a good idea to use heaters sparingly and, when
one does use one, to use the most efficient one available.


I'll say it again: 90% efficiency is not bad.

**And I'll say it again: Not good enough.

Remember that I'm
speaking of gas or oil-burners, for which there is generally NO
practical replacement in colder climates (except "100% efficient"
electric heat, and most electricity has to be generated by burning
something anyway).

**Wrong. Electricity can be generated by a number of alternative means.
Solar, nuclear, wind, tidal, geo-thermal and others. In fact, at least one
European nation derives a substantial portion of it's energy from wind
turbines. Another derives a substantial proportion from fission.


A electic space heater is NOT clearly "less wasteful" than 90%
efficient gas heat, despite the fact the electric heater itself is
100% efficient.

Get it now?

**It seems you don't understand the myriad methods available for generating
electricity. Several of those methods do not require the burning of anything
(on this planet). I do, however, agree that burning gas in one's home is
more efficient than using electricity (for heating), if that electricity is
derived from the burning of coal.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:16:13 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

You didn't say "shift nearly 8KW". You said "produce".

**OK. You're just being pedantic. Fair enough.

So no more arguing definitions. Promise? :-)

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:07:00 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

Wow! Good for you! Now, tell me how efficient the generators at your
electrical plant are!

**No idea. How efficient are wind turbines and water turbines? All my energy
is guaranteed to be delivered by my supplier via renewable means. Of course,
early next year, most (maybe all) of my electrical power will be generated
by my own Solar array (hopefully). I expect gross effiency will be around
12%.

There are "suppliers" here in the UK who purport to supply "green"
electric power. Of course they're just providing the same power my
neighbour uses. Because they aren't suppliers, merely retailers. Not
even that really, just billers.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
news
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:07:00 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

Wow! Good for you! Now, tell me how efficient the generators at your
electrical plant are!

**No idea. How efficient are wind turbines and water turbines? All my
energy
is guaranteed to be delivered by my supplier via renewable means. Of
course,
early next year, most (maybe all) of my electrical power will be generated
by my own Solar array (hopefully). I expect gross effiency will be around
12%.

There are "suppliers" here in the UK who purport to supply "green"
electric power. Of course they're just providing the same power my
neighbour uses. Because they aren't suppliers, merely retailers. Not
even that really, just billers.

**Of course. Same here. Over here, independent auditors monitor suppliers.
If a supplier is found not be meeting their promise, there are penalties
which can be imposed. The Federal government has recently announced a
significant boost to the Solar array benefit. This makes it reasonably
economical for individuals to fit the panels to their homes. Next year, the
opposition party (who should manage to get into power) has promised an
expansion of that system. At least one energy supplier has released a
package for homeowners to have the system installed. For my part, I have a
friend at BP Solar (Aust) who may be prepared to buy some panels on my
behalf. I am hoping to shave some expenses that way.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"


**Good luck with that. Power switches tend to be VERY reliable.


** Nonsense - they are one of the more common failures in audio
equipment.

**Nope. Not even remotely close.


** You are simply WRONG.

**You are entitled to your opinion.


** You are simply WRONG !!!!!!!!!!




Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power
switch that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge rating
is exceeded with every second switch on cycle.

**Perhaps some of the less well known manufacturers operate that way.
Most of the larger manufacutrers, IME, choose approved and tested
switches.


** Got SFA to do with actual mechanical ruggedness or longevity in
service.

**Really? Does (say) Underwriter's Labs not perform repeated operations
for switches they test?


** Got SFA to do with the issue at all.

" Equipment makers ( not switch makers) chose the cheapest AC power switch
that works and don't give a hoot if that means the surge rating is
exceeded with every second switch on cycle. "



Do learn to read sometime - ARSEHOLE.

**Tsk, tsk.


** Go get ****ed

- you ASININE AUTISTIC CHARLATAN.




On some high powered amps using toroidal transformers ( no soft start)
the AC switch will eventually weld itself permanently on !!

**Indeed.


** The TW cretin now contradicts itself.

**Nope.

** Yep.



The " push on - push off " switches used in so many items of audio gear
commonly fail open after internal metal parts get burned away at each
switch on. Same goes for mini rocker switches on many items where the
AC transformer is of a few hundred VA.

**I don't see such problems very often.


** Ignorance is not evidence - cretin.

**I merely listed MY experience.



** That is another dam lie.

You made a several completely false assertions.

Just like the life long, bull****ting criminal charlatan you have proved
yourself to be .




.......... Phil

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

** Go get ****ed

- you ASININE AUTISTIC CHARLATAN.

Just like the life long, bull****ting criminal charlatan you have proved
yourself to be .

**You owe me a fiver Keith.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson Vampire Charlatan from Hell


** Go get ****ed

- you ASININE AUTISTIC CHARLATAN.

Just like the life long, bull****ting criminal charlatan you have
proved yourself to be .

**You owe me a fiver Keith.



** Better he delivered you a bullet.







........ Phil