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#1
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The drum-mic question, yet again
(I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position problem, though. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s, 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position, but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll sound. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#2
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#3
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"Jay Levitt" wrote in message
... (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. I don't have much to offer, but my first question for recording drums is always what does the room sound like? The smaller the room the easier it is to get it "ringing" from a loud sound source, my room sounds great for guitar but the drums still sound boxy if I don't spread around some more absorbant materials. I've been hanging quilts and wool blankets at strategic locations around the kit, trying to block the more direct sources of slapback. Listening to your recording the drums sound like they have too much of that 'small room' sound I'm talking about, and a little too much reverb - maybe an attempt to put the drums in a larger space? The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. IMHO as a drummer, I think trying to achieve isolation on the kit is counterproductive. My personal belief is to get as much as I can from the overheads by selection and positioning, and blend in the other mics to reinforce the tone of the toms, kick, & snare. I tihnk of the kit as a single instrument, instead of a collection of instruments. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. Make the most of what you have: play with the position of the drums in the room, with the room dampening, mic placement, drum heads, drum tuning, even stick choice are all a factor. I've made some fairly good sounding recordings with mics much worse than what you're working with. (Not like anyone's going to offer me a job, but in the final mix it worked) Sean |
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#4
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In article , sjconolly_98
@yaaho.com says... IMHO as a drummer, I think trying to achieve isolation on the kit is counterproductive. My personal belief is to get as much as I can from the overheads by selection and positioning, and blend in the other mics to reinforce the tone of the toms, kick, & snare. I tihnk of the kit as a single instrument, instead of a collection of instruments. I tend to agree with this. I use the individual mics on the toms to try and "tug" the particular drum into where I want it in the spacial image. I also use that signal for effects, and of course the bass drum is its own animal. I generally don't try to isolate the bass drum too much, unless we're going to use the track to trigger MIDI events. But yes, I think a good set of overheads is important to the best sound I get micing drums. And I've never found a need to mic the hihat. -- ---Michael (of APP)... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/au...plantmusic.htm |
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#6
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In article writes: The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. Sounds to me like you should elimiate the leakage concerns by eliminating mics. Do the drums sound balanced (the way he's playing) at any point in the room? Start with a mic or stereo pair there, and then fill in the snare and kick if necessary with close mics. Try pointing the snare mic at the shell (along a radius) rather than pointing it downward toward the head to get it further away from the cymbals. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts about (648??). They're good for getting in close to drums and reducing leakage from the back. Don't go out and buy something new for this project. What mic you use isn't all that critical, but where you put it is, and what's most critical is that the drummer understands that he's being recorded (on the cheap) and that he might have to cooperate with you rather than just bashing away like he does in the bars where he normally plays. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#7
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Jay Levitt wrote:
The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but ... How big (and specifically tall) is your room? For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. The D112 is kind of a one-trick pony to my ears. If you're shopping, how about an Audix D6? I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. Excellent kick mic (among so many other things.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. There should be more than enough hat in the OH pair. Have you tried pulling them back in front of the kit a ways? |
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#8
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Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't
sound good. Did you remember to set them to "music" as opposed to "speech". I find it hard to believe that they couldn?t cut it, there is a reason why these are so commonly used, simply because they are good if a little costly. Anyway it sounds to me like there could be problem with the drummer (or his tuning) in which case getting a decent drumsound becomes moren of a trial/error situation which is hard to give any advice for. |
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#9
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Matrixmusic wrote:
I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to those? -- ha |
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#10
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Mike Rivers wrote:
Sounds to me like you should elimiate the leakage concerns by eliminating mics. We have a winner, folks... -- ha |
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#11
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#13
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Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. The snare sounded just a bit too up front to me at some parts, maybe just turning it down a bit or compressing it a bit so the louder parts don't stand out so much. Mark |
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#14
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In article , ra3035
@NOTfreescale.com says... I tend to agree with this. I use the individual mics on the toms to try and "tug" the particular drum into where I want it in the spacial image. I also use that signal for effects, and of course the bass drum is its own animal. I generally don't try to isolate the bass drum too much, unless we're going to use the track to trigger MIDI events. But yes, I think a good set of overheads is important to the best sound I get micing drums. And I've never found a need to mic the hihat. Yes, I agree. For me, the overheads are key. I wasn't too clear about my role in the post; for this project, a student from the production class (that's me) plays producer while someone from the recording class plays engineer. She's eager and has a good ear, but likes to experiment with lots of mics just to see what happens. (Hey, that's what school is for.) So we don't necessarily use all the tracks, or much of them if we do. The hi-hat track is really only useful to "tug" the light clicks during the verses, f'rinstance. If we retrack these at my studio, I'll be taking on somewhat of an engineer role, if only because I'm the one that needs to go buy enough mics to mic a kit, so I get to decide what mics we use. I think our choice of overheads is really key. I like the thought of the kit as an instrument. And the fact that I can't definitively answer "does it sound good in the room" tells me I need to do more homework on *what I'm micing* than on what mics I should buy to redo it! Perhaps using "earring overheads" instead of a wide spaced pair would give us a better angle at the toms without the cymbals getting in the way. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#15
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In article znr1112708634k@trad, says...
Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts about (648??). They're good for getting in close to drums and reducing leakage from the back. Don't go out and buy something new for this project. Well, it wouldn't be just for this project; it's that I've been begging off from ever recording drums (and, therefore, from most of the projects that could come my way!) because I don't have the mics, and because it's too small a room to get isolation. But the drums are the only acoustic instrument, so this is the perfect first-drum-kit project for me. Gotta get started some time. I assume you mean the Sennheiser 608, a clip-mic supercardioid? That looks neat. I'll give the shell miking a try. I've been doing straight-ahead "point the mic at the head" stuff. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#16
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In article , sjconolly_98
@yaaho.com says... I don't have much to offer, but my first question for recording drums is always what does the room sound like? The smaller the room the easier it is to get it "ringing" from a loud sound source, my room sounds great for guitar but the drums still sound boxy if I don't spread around some more absorbant materials. I've been hanging quilts and wool blankets at strategic locations around the kit, trying to block the more direct sources of slapback. Listening to your recording the drums sound like they have too much of that 'small room' sound I'm talking about, and a little too much reverb - maybe an attempt to put the drums in a larger space? Yeah, Berklee's studio B is just not a good room for rock drums. In fact, I'm not sure if we HAVE a good room for rock drums. Here at home, I have two rooms, each with high ceilings, one treated, one just naturally funky. I don't have a drum set, so I don't actually know what the rooms sound like, but the general opinion is that I ought to be able to get a really good sound there. We'll see. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#17
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In article , says...
The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but ... How big (and specifically tall) is your room? Studio B (where the great demo and the lousy new basics were done) is, I'm guessing, 40 x 20, with ceilings sloping from maybe 10 to 12 feet, maybe a foot higher. One of my rooms is 20 x 15 with a cathedral to about 17 feet, but is radically trapped and diffused. The other, which is probably more exciting from a drums perspective, is about 15 x 15, has a 24-foot pine- beadboard ceiling, and opens to a loft on the second floor. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. The D112 is kind of a one-trick pony to my ears. If you're shopping, how about an Audix D6? I'll check into it.. know any good recordings of it? I hate buying mics by description, but we have no Audix's to try; what makes you like it better than the D112 or B52? To me, the D112 is good for a really thumpy kick, the B52 is really tubby and round, and the sub-kick is good to impress people while you use another mic in the mix. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. Excellent kick mic (among so many other things.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. There should be more than enough hat in the OH pair. Have you tried pulling them back in front of the kit a ways? Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe that's in the performance, eh? -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#18
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In article ,
says... I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to those? I'll be happy to send you a PDF on pedagogy. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#19
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"Jay Levitt" wrote in message ... Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe that's in the performance, eh? Bingo. Geoff |
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#20
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"Jay Levitt" wrote in message ... (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position problem, though. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s, 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position, but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll sound. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. Well, that's a pretty detailed post with a whole helluva lot of variables, so I'll just riff a bit here... Sna If the -57 sounds "too tight" (no air) back it off a bit... I tend to prefer not to shove the capsule right through the top head, if you get my drift... back it off from both the head & the rim & see what you get - maybe start with the capsule just over the rim & a couple inches above the head. You've gotta give the mic some room to breathe. Kick: If the D-112 is working, don't **** with it... from your description it sounds like it's the only thing you're happy with right now. Toms: You almost can't go wrong with the 421's unless the drums themselves suck, or are tuned poorly - personally, I might not even use individual tom mics if the cymbals are as close in as you're suggesting - I think the most important thing you need to do is get the snare & kick the way you like them, then find the overheads you like for this kit/room combination (some people would advise the opposite - OH's first, then the rest, but since you've got a kick sound working well, I say build on that), then see if you even need tom mics. Hi-Hat - see above... you may not even need one depending on your overheads & their positioning, but if you've got a C-451, I can attest that I've never recorded a less-than splendid hat sound with that mic (dunno how different the newer ones are from the older ones - never used the "B" model... is it safe to assume they're relatively close?). But again, don't stick it right over the hat & especially don't point it straight down over the middle of the thing... if you back it off a few inches away from the edges, and a few inches above at around a 45-degree angle, that should give you a good starting point that should allow good articulation on the softer stuff, while not being too hot on the bashing bits. If you want to try something different, then check out the Audix D6 for kick & the D4's for toms, even the higher toms... they have good low end extension & should bring out the beef. Neil Henderson |
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#21
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Neil Henderson wrote:
if you've got a C-451, I can attest that I've never recorded a less-than splendid hat sound with that mic (dunno how different the newer ones are from the older ones - never used the "B" model... is it safe to assume they're relatively close?). Probably not. |
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#22
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1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good
2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit things with sticks 3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is there a sweet spot? You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the sounds of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first... Once you're confident #'s 1-3 have been dealt with follow Mike R's micing suggestions...listen to the kit from all over the place...find that spot in space where they seem to shine and put a mic there, which one is your choice. Stand by the drummer listen from his point of view and I'm sure you'll find a sweet spot or two...put a mic or two there. Go into the control room and listen, what's missing, what's too upfront and address those problems with close mics. Address those areas in the same fashion as above...listen, find the sweet spot and put a mic there. Than back to the control room and listen again... It ain't rocket science but it can take some time . Don "Jay Levitt" wrote in message ... (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position problem, though. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s, 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position, but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll sound. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#23
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In article , says...
1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good 2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit things with sticks 3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is there a sweet spot? You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the sounds of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first... Yeah... I was half asleep when I wrote the post. There are really two parts to it, and I really conflated them: 1. Because we didn't deal with #1 or #3 (I think #2 is mostly there), I need to rerecord drums. I know how important they are, somehow we blew the session anyway, it happens. Studio B has no sweet spot for rock drums. It has only less-sour spots. 2. Because I need to rerecord drums, and have no more studio time at school, and have a great studio at home, and have been meaning to start tracking drums one of these days, I need (want!) to buy a set of drum mics, and if they happen to solve some particular problems I ran into with loose patterns, well, wouldn't that be nice? I think I have some good recommendations now, so I'm going to see if I can (somehow) audition some of the ones I haven't heard yet, such as the Audix. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#24
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"Jay Levitt" wrote in message ... In article , says... 1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good 2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit things with sticks 3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is there a sweet spot? You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the sounds of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first... Yeah... I was half asleep when I wrote the post. There are really two parts to it, and I really conflated them: 1. Because we didn't deal with #1 or #3 (I think #2 is mostly there), I need to rerecord drums. I know how important they are, somehow we blew the session anyway, it happens. Studio B has no sweet spot for rock drums. It has only less-sour spots. 2. Because I need to rerecord drums, and have no more studio time at school, and have a great studio at home, and have been meaning to start tracking drums one of these days, I need (want!) to buy a set of drum mics, and if they happen to solve some particular problems I ran into with loose patterns, well, wouldn't that be nice? I think I have some good recommendations now, so I'm going to see if I can (somehow) audition some of the ones I haven't heard yet, such as the Audix. If I may make a suggestion on two additional mics...look at the Josephson C42's as overheads...two good overheads in conjuction with a fairly good kick mic (Audix Shure AKG Sennheiser) and a 57 should get you a good basic 4 mic setup to which you could add spot mics as needed...The josephsons aren't KM84's but they do the job well YMMV Don -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler |
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#25
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In article ,
Jay Levitt wrote: I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. especially with deep snares, micing from the side often works. Depending on placement and pattern, you may get the HH as well. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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#26
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In article writes: Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts about (648??). I assume you mean the Sennheiser 608, a clip-mic supercardioid? That looks neat. Nope, N/D468: http://www.electrovoice.com/Electrov...sf/pages/ND468 -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#27
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playon wrote:
(hank alrich) wrote: Matrixmusic wrote: I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to those? That's harder... On the other hand, if I want to recode my drums from 16 bits to 32, maybe Kev's tome is in order. -- ha |
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#28
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In article ,
(hank alrich) wrote: playon wrote: (hank alrich) wrote: Matrixmusic wrote: I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to those? That's harder... On the other hand, if I want to recode my drums from 16 bits to 32, maybe Kev's tome is in order. -- ha Let thoes amogn us who haev never made a tyop cast teh frist stoen.. -Jya -- x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x |
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#29
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Producing Drums
Drums are the fundamental component of music; "The Bed Track" as we call it. All other instruments are recorded to the rhythms of the drum performance. All instruments eventually trace their roots back to Africa where rhythm was essential to the spirituality of the tribal culture. To this day we notice the rhythm of the drum from the native peoples of Canada, to a dance hall, to someone just tapping their feet to a beat. We are all intertwined with rhythm. Recording drums is one of the most challenging situations you will ever come across in the studio. The microphones you use and how you place them is important in the initial preparation. A tuned kit with new heads is the standard operating procedure for all drummers. No amount of EQ or signal processing can resurrect a cardboard sounding drum kit after it's been recorded. The room you are recording in is very critical also. Rock prod/eng's prefer large live rooms to capture the ambience of the kit. As for pop drummers, they are often located in booths or small rooms that are reasonably dry sounding so you can get a present sound. The Kick Drum For the kick drum, you should use a dynamic mic - the bigger the diaphragm, the better low-end pick-up. I've used RE-20's and AKG-112's. The way I usually mic a kick drum is to stick the mic inside the kick drum (I always remove the front head) about 3-6 inches in front the front head. That's a good place to start - you can move the mic around and find the best sounding location. I usually stick a pillow or blankets against the rear of the drum head to minimize ring. You'll get more attack the closer the mic is to the beater - you'll get more overtones farther away. On certain occasions we use two mics. A small diaphragm dynamic (421) close to the beater to get the attack of the bass drum. The other mic, a large diaphragm, further away from the head to pickup the low end of the resonance of the bass drum. This allows you to have the flexibility to control the mix of the attack and resonance. With the close mic you can EQ from 2-4Khz to get the attack. Anything higher than 4Khz will just make the attack sound thin. With the close mic try to avoid aiming it directly at the beater. This prevents dramatic changes in the attack sound of the bass drum. If you place the mic slightly off axis and EQ the mid range (more than you would if the mic were on axis) the attack sound of the bass drum will be more even. With the large diaphragm mic place it closer to front of the drum (where the head has been removed) this will allow you to get more of the low end resonance. If using a large diaphragm condenser make sure to pad it down (use pad on mic) and place a Kleenex over the microphone to prevent the capsule from being overloaded by wind. With EQing the bottom end you need to know if you would like the bottom end to be heard or felt. EQing between 30-60Hz will allow you to "feel" the bottom end only on large speaker systems. If you need to hear the bottom end EQ between 60-100Hz. This will allow you to "hear" the attack of the low end on smaller speaker systems. The bass drum also produces a lot of low mid range frequencies that tend to not relate to themselves. This usually occurs between 300-600Hz. Be prepared to remove some of these frequencies, which will allow the bass drum to sound tighter and punchier. As in any situation using two mics you need to be prepared for phasing problems. This problem can be solved by flipping the phase on one of the mics or moving the position of one of the mics. The Snare Drum The best way to capture a great snare sound is by close miking it with a dynamic cardioid-pattern mic that can handle a high SPL and keep leakage to a minimum. The legendary SM-57 is an excellent mic for the snare, it is the choice of many professional engineers, and it's what I use myself. The classic approach for miking the snare is to place the mic 1-3 inches over the snare rim opposite the drummer and 1-3 inches above the top drum head. The mic should be at about a 35-degree angle downward. I usually try to also angle the mic inward (away from the hi-hats) to avoid leakage from the hi-hats. You can also mic the bottom snare head for some added top end but remember to reverse the phase. If the drummer is playing with brushes try using a small diaphragm condenser cardioid microphone. The condenser will have a larger pickup pattern to capture more of the performance. With EQ the snare drum has three basic regions: Low end 100Hz (depending on depth of snare drum), mid range (crack) 3-5 kHz and top end 10 kHz and above. In rock, snare drums you tend to desire a lot of the mid range/crack and low end. In Pop you tend to desire more of the top end over the mid range. The Toms It's best to mic each tom separately. Again, small diaphragm dynamic mics work the best, and SM-57's and Sennheiser 421's are a good choice for their tight pick-up pattern and high SPL. Small diaphragm condenser mics are great for getting more top end but remember to insert a pad so the mics don't overload and be prepared for cymbal leakage. The best approach to miking toms is to place the mic 4-6 inches above the drumhead at about a 45-degree angle over the head. If you pick up a lot of overtones, a little duct tape in the right spots will kill the overtones, or if you have a noise gate you can gate out the overtones. I always move the mics around to capture the right balance of attack and resonance. In EQing toms there are four different ranges: Low end 80-120Hz (depending on size of tom) Low Mid range 300-600Hz, High Mid range 2-4kHz and Top end 10kHz and above. In an average EQ setting on a tom you would see a boost in the Low end, High Mid range and High end as well as a cut in the Low Mid range. The Overheads The drum overhead mics are really supposed to capture the overall sound of the drums, not just the cymbals. Condenser mics such as U-87s and AKG 414s are the first choice for overheads, and one popular miking technique is with a spaced pair of mics (on boom stands) mounted 2-3 feet above the drums -the right mic pointed at the right cymbals, the left mic pointed at the left cymbals. Remember that when raising overheads the acoustics of the room will factor into the sonic equation. When mixing direct drum mics with the overheads this most likely causes acoustical phasing problems, this happens in the low frequency range. The low frequencies in phase with the snare drum mic have a tendency to be out of phase when the overheads are mixed in, due to the wavelength of low end frequencies. When checking for phasing problems on drums assign all mics to a mono listening position. It is hard to detect phasing problems with mics panned to different positions in the stereo image. If you notice phasing problems just reverse the phase button on the input strip or move the mic positions. EQ overheads if you need a brighter sound and insert shelving curves in the high end try to avoid rolling off the low end, for this will make your snare and toms sound thin. E.g. +3dB @10Khz (shelf). The Hi-hat Use a small diaphragm condenser mic like an AKG 451 placed about 6" above the high-hats, pointed straight down at the center of the top hat. Sometimes high-hats have a tendency to produce unwanted midrange frequencies around 1.5 kHz which tend to make the high-hat sound trashy. Omitting some of this frequency range will allow the high-hat to sound more defined in the high end. Room Mics Use at least 2 omni mics of the same model. Place them in the centre of the room to get an even room sound. This often requires the use of hard surface baffles between the room mics and the drum kit. This removes the initial direct sound in the pickup allowing the engineer/producer to utilize more of the room resonance. Drum Compression Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems and/or create a desired effect. When using a live performance you tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus, even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This transient causes the drums to separate themselves from the rest of the elements in the mix. Because the duration of the transient is so short it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back into more inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting to control the extension of the transient. You will need to incorporate an attack time of less then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the drums. The release time should also be very fast 5-10ms so the only transient is affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting ratio of 10:1 or higher will suffice. Remember to allow headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than being hard limited. This is accomplished by first setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a fast release time. Next, set the threshold to a setting where the limited audio information is approximately 2-3ms in duration for the nature of drum transients is a very fast attack and a very fast release with little duration in between. The goal here is to limit only this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound. Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting your drums to sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The attack time should be any where from 20-50 ms which allows the louder attacks of sound to pass through unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal. Next set the release time (1-200ms) so the sustain part of the signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next transient comp/limit. When you are sub-mixing drums to a stereo bus remember to insert the stereo link function on the comp/limiter. In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end. On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect, you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum. Room Microphones Use two large diaphragm condensers of the same model placed at an even distance from each other and closest walls. If the room is 36' wide place the mics 12' from the walls to get maximum diffusion. If the room is 48' deep place the mics 18' from the walls. The biggest problem with room miking is the noticeable delay between the audio from the close mics and the original audio arriving to the room mics (diagram A). The solution is to remove the direct signal from the drums from entering the room mics (diagram B). This will allow the room mics to only pick up diffused early reflections and the room reverb, allowing you to mix it in at a higher level without any noticeable flam. |
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#30
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Matrixmusic wrote:
Producing Drums Drums are the fundamental component of music; "The Bed Track" Again? |
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#31
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Jay Levitt wrote: (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position problem, though. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s, 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position, but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll sound. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. The words uttely failing to capture the drums, sounds like phase problems to me. Start with one track and then systematically check every poissibly option with flipping the ploarity. You will be surprised at how big a difference flipping something like the overheads can make. The kick and snare get bigger and the toms with become round like the should be. As far as cymbal leakage, positioning shouldnt't be too much of a problem. With an eight inch deep sanre, you've probably got a rock drummer who's proud of how hard he hits the drums. I'd bet his sole income is not from playing drums, certianly not from recording them if that's the case. Ask him, beg him, force him to play with lighter sticks and lighter cymbals if you can. That will help balance out the kit quite a bit. You can ask him and explain to him how balancing the kit is important. but one the tpae is rolling he'll go back to playing how he's used to feeling it. That's kind of improtant too - you do want him to be playing from feel. Lighter stick will allow that while getting some of the results you need. |
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#32
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Just flip the phase Kurt
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#33
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"Matrixmusic" wrote in message oups.com... Just flip the phase Kurt Just tell people where they can get your book, Kevin. ;-) DM |
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#34
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#35
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Jay Levitt wrote: (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short one.) I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3. In other words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless. The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8", and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in - whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics. I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position problem, though. For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for inside-kick or floor tom. For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s, 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.) Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge- smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta cut. Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position, but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll sound. Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix, or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway), or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits. Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now. Honestly, I believe you're over-thinking this. I tend to like the "less is more" approach. Put some overheads up, mic up the kick and maybe the snare, then use two same type LDC's as "room" mics about six to eight feet in front of the kit (if possible). Blend until you have the "air" you seek. I think you'll find this or a variation of this approach very appealing once you understand you don't need to mic up so much stuff. Remember, many early jazz albums were done with very few mics. They set the combo up in the main studio and put a mic in front of each of them and then let them wail. We still consider many of these kinds of recordings incredible and classic. --fletch |
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#36
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Matrixmusic wrote:
For the kick drum, you should use a dynamic mic - the bigger the diaphragm, the better low-end pick-up. You come on with this misinformation _again_? -- ha |
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#37
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Matrixmusic wrote:
It's not a book, just a collection of rough notes I did for friends! No matter - if you put it out there with false statements, expect them to get noticed. -- ha |
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#38
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Jay Levitt wrote: Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe that's in the performance, eh? I rarely use a hihat mic becuase there's almost always too much of it. Yesterday I recorded Charley Drayton and he brought in these massive 17 inch hihats and they would have been lost wihtout a hihat mic. Some of the balance is in the recording and mixing, but far more is in the performance. |
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