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#81
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Installers are you and I
Here's something I don't understand, either... look at the emerging
custom home A/V industry as an example, there are endless opportunities for training sponsored by the industry's trade organization and many others, including manufacturer support. It makes it much, much easier to be on top of the products and technologies and to improve your professionalism. Mobile audio has so few of these opportunities, it's as though they just don't want to pull people up and forward any more. Discouraging, it is... JD Masterson wrote: I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for. John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty of good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a problem and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about working on cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy. Mark....you have a great sense of this industry. I have read ten's of posts from you that correct and helpful. but..... As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view, that being said, you need to remember that you don't know the entire story. I would bet none of us do, in regards to the original post. I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. Here, with this statement I agree with you. The education level has decreased, car technology has greatly increased, profits have disappeared from the industry, the OEM systems are vastly improved. All of these factors have lead to people not getting paid enough to have a level of education and customer service that most people demand. The only way for a service industry to survive is by making money. I think its really that simple. Without paying a decent amount, the employee behind the counter can't earn a living, and he wont give a damn about your car. Or learn new things. He will get another job, and let the next 17 year old fill his position. |
#82
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Installers are you and I
Yeah, and then there's those of us that know exactly what "most" means
and just don't agree with you. Have you ever been a retail salesman? In a business that pays anything worth mentioning? It ain't easy... I think there is lots of room for improvement in not just the 12V industry, but virtually ALL industries that rely in retail salespeople. However, until you've tried it, you ought to restrain the urge to crap all over the whole profession - it's a bitch of a way to make a living in my opinion. Which probably has a lot to do with why the good ones move up and away from the floor more often than not. I'll also point out that I'd be surprised if you didn't hold this opinion. After reading RAC and its prevailing winds for as many years as I have, this is a group that is overrun with people that despise retail salespeople for the most part and almost certainly they do not go into a retail environment/experience with anything that resembles an open mind. You get what you expect, in other words... JD Mark Zarella wrote: I think the ones that are defending their installation profession probably represent the 'good' installers/car audio shops that are out there. But at the same time I agree with Mark in the fact that it is hard to come by 'good' installers across the board. I've only had two installations done by someone other than myself. The first time was years ago when I first got into this and I didn't know all the nuances of car audio. I traded in the vehicle so I had to reverse engineer what the installer did and realized that this wasn't rocket science. Then I started doing it myself. The second instance was during the winter time and I didn't have the ability to do it myself so I found a place to do it. Both of my experiences were fine though. But, there have been times where I gone in asking detailed questions about products only to get blown off by the salesperson or told that there is no such product when I know there was. Another occasion I was told by the owner of the store that I didn't know nothing about T/S parameters and I had them all wrong. One other time the guy was trying to get me to ditch what I currently had and jump full bore into some $1500 system. It's definitely a hit/miss situation. I usually don't bother with the local shops nowadays unless I need a part or something straightforward. Salesman are another story entirely. Most of them have no installation experience, and don't know a damned thing about anything. Again, I'll probably be criticized for this too because someone will come along and not know the difference between the words "most" and "all". |
#83
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I know how installers work
Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion
then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done. One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar equipment. I know it can be done. Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried. "John Durbin" wrote in message ... I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17 years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses. Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all day. Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly changed their opinion of the profession. Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds for indicting the whole industry. JD Mark Zarella wrote: I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for. Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view, I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly dwindling. |
#84
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installers SUCK!
My all-time favorite:
I'm running a crappy install dept. for a now-defunct high volume/mediocre quality place, around 1985 I think. Part of the job is issuing RA #'s for the store before they'll take back any 12V product that was sold over the counter. This guy walks in one day with a Coustic radio. Now, this is not what you would call a quality device, it may even have been a refurb since we sold plenty of that junk at the time. The guy hands me the radio and says: "They told me to get an RA from you so I can exchange this - it doesn;t work at all." My response: "Ok, I just need to plug it in on our bench and verify that it's DOA" Now, keep in mind I have NO attitude at all - with this POS stereo, the guy is probably right. His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" NOW we're having fun, he just got my attention! I asked him politely: "Really? What kind of stuff do you work on?" Answer: "Organs" (the kind they used to sell in all the malls) So I said, no worries but I do need to do this check so I can give you the RA. So, I hook this thing up, and it works just awesome. He gives me the usual, well it must be intermittent because when I (that's a big capital I) put it in, it wasn;t working. To make a long story end (can't make it short now), the guy never hooked up the ground wire. I guess he figured that it should get grounded from mounting it in his plastic dashboard. I have met some great DIY types, ended up working with some of them that got into the industry. I started that way myself, as did many of us. BUT, Eddie is right - I've never seen ANY professional installations that could compare with: Battery cable from amp connected to positive terminal with Visegrips (uninsulated ones at that). I think he had also routed it out of the car's passenger compartment through the door opening, into the fender. Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps - dude had actually taken the time to connect about 12 of them, and very carefully slid them onto the pins. It was actually working, most of the time. Wouldn't have taken any bets on the service life of that radio's output chips though. JD Eddie Runner wrote: Oh, and Durbin can probalby back me up on this one.. Generally stuff installed by do it yourselfers is FAR WORSE that stuff installed professionally!! Many brands discourage self installation just cause they know customers burn up way more gear than pro installers do... |
#85
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I know how installers work
I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good retail opportunity." But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals. JD Mark Zarella wrote: Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done. One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar equipment. I know it can be done. Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried. "John Durbin" wrote in message .. . I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17 years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses. Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all day. Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly changed their opinion of the profession. Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds for indicting the whole industry. JD Mark Zarella wrote: I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for. Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view, I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly dwindling. |
#86
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I know how installers work
I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good retail opportunity." But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals. That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then, since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search there. As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it. So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed. Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as they are until summertime. |
#87
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I know how installers work
Ahh, upstate NY... well, I'll ask around anyway, chances are you found
most of the larger shops but maybe there's a gem hiding up there :-) JD Mark Zarella wrote: I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good retail opportunity." But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals. That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then, since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search there. As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it. So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed. Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as they are until summertime. |
#88
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installers SUCK!
John Durbin wrote:
My all-time favorite: His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers (who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it.... In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was hooked to the two rear speakers.... I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess) and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from me.... HA HA HA HA HA HA I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!! JUST HANGING THERE!!!! SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA Thats an install I will never forget... Eddie Runner |
#89
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I know how installers work
Durbin, whats your feelings on the
plug em in and slam em installs?? And how it is changing the installers competence levels... Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness..... In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits we have to make ourselves.... In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM.. I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires.... many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that! But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses... But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness seems to be lost..... That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good! Eddie |
#90
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I know how installers work
Mark, I believe you!
But its not just installers!!!!! I had an electrician come in here and install a 220v plug in for our big air compressor... a few years later I had another elecrician installing some other wiring and he could not figure out how the previous guy wired the big switchbox for the compressor.... I could see the wires were coming from the big dist point and go through the big switch with the big handle and out from there to the 220v plug on the wall of the shop... But he new electrician kept INSISTING the power was going the other way and he looked puzzled... I kept pointing to where the power was coming in and he kept telling me NO! This guy was a moron I thought!! So I pointed my finger and traced it out for him, he finally got it and said, OH I SEE NOW, the previous electrician installed the big switchbox backward..... So, first electrician installed our switchbox backward (but it worked) and the second electrician didnt seem to understand how the juice came into the building even though it was all exposed right in front of him because someone didnt follow the normal way of doing things... ITS MY OPINION BOTH OF THESE GUYS WERE MORONS!! How do you find a good one??? I dont know.... I will admit to you Mark, finding a good installer may be just as hard. Specially if you give them a job they have not done before or doing something they are not used to.... Cadillacs are not the most common car in an install bay, and our shop is in the ritzy part of town.... ;-) Plus, many of the caddys have the bose system, for some reason installers all over the place are scared of the bose systems!! So I believe ya.... And I dont know what to tell ya!! Eddie Runner Mark Zarella wrote: Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done. One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar equipment. I know it can be done. Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried. "John Durbin" wrote in message ... I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17 years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses. Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all day. Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly changed their opinion of the profession. Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds for indicting the whole industry. JD Mark Zarella wrote: I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for. Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view, I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly dwindling. |
#91
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I know how installers work
Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no
other door speakers have ever been mounted before??? Is it that the car comes with dash speakers but you wannna add door speakers where there is no place for them??? That kinda thing was real common in the 70s cause not many cars back then came with front speakers at all... But nowdays even I might decline to do that installation.... No wonder the guys wanted $50 to do an extimate, they would have to pull the doors apart just to see if it can be done!! If this is the case IT MAKES MORE SENSE TO ME NOW! Eddie Runner Mark Zarella wrote: I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good retail opportunity." But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals. That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then, since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search there. As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it. So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed. Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as they are until summertime. |
#92
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I know how installers work
Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no
other door speakers have ever been mounted before??? No, there was a stock 8" in the door. I wanted a 6 and a 4 in its place. There was room laterally, and in fact, the grille was even shaped to accomodate putting them in with minimal occlusion. |
#93
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I know how installers work
That's what we call "barrier to entry", in other words your skills allow
you to sell a job for less money than the guys that don't know and rely on a harness. However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points... JD Eddie Runner wrote: Durbin, whats your feelings on the plug em in and slam em installs?? And how it is changing the installers competence levels... Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness..... In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits we have to make ourselves.... In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM.. I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires.... many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that! But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses... But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness seems to be lost..... That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good! Eddie |
#94
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I know how installers work
you're not driving a Miata, are you?
JD Mark Zarella wrote: Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no other door speakers have ever been mounted before??? No, there was a stock 8" in the door. I wanted a 6 and a 4 in its place. There was room laterally, and in fact, the grille was even shaped to accomodate putting them in with minimal occlusion. |
#95
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installers SUCK!
Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never forget
a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his component values to work with the input impedances etc. Dude sure was proud of it though... JD Eddie Runner wrote: John Durbin wrote: My all-time favorite: His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers (who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it.... In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was hooked to the two rear speakers.... I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess) and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from me.... HA HA HA HA HA HA I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!! JUST HANGING THERE!!!! SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA Thats an install I will never forget... Eddie Runner |
#96
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I know how installers work
you're not driving a Miata, are you?
No, why? |
#97
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installers SUCK!
those old powerplay amps were killer for the day!
Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players! the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay on peaks to let you know the amp was workin.... John Durbin wrote: Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his component values to work with the input impedances etc. Dude sure was proud of it though... JD Eddie Runner wrote: John Durbin wrote: My all-time favorite: His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers (who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it.... In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was hooked to the two rear speakers.... I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess) and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from me.... HA HA HA HA HA HA I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!! JUST HANGING THERE!!!! SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA Thats an install I will never forget... Eddie Runner |
#98
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I know how installers work
I like harnesses to John.... I use em everyday....
Im not knockin harnesses or anything else to make an installers job go smoohter or better for the customer.... I was just making conversation about the ABILITY of the old school (pre-harness) installers versus the *gotta have a harness* *never cut a wire* installer mentality of today.... I would betcha the old schoolers are a bit better at simple things like phasing loudspeakers and troubleshooting.... John Durbin wrote: That's what we call "barrier to entry", in other words your skills allow you to sell a job for less money than the guys that don't know and rely on a harness. However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points... JD Eddie Runner wrote: Durbin, whats your feelings on the plug em in and slam em installs?? And how it is changing the installers competence levels... Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness..... In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits we have to make ourselves.... In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM.. I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires.... many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that! But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses... But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness seems to be lost..... That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good! Eddie |
#99
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I know how installers work
Eddie Runner wrote in message ...
In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way. That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help." |
#100
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I know how installers work
Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could
find yourself running new speaker wires for sure. Troy carbudgetaudio.com |
#101
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I know how installers work
i used to have the sign
Labor $25 hr If you watch $40 hr If you help $80 hr if you laugh $100 hr Customers thought it was funny, when they would laugh I would say " GOTCHA" and hold out my hand for payment... ha ha ha Rick Davis wrote: Eddie Runner wrote in message ... In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way. That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help." |
#102
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I know how installers work
running new speaker wires?
In what instance? Everytime? Why? What advantages do new speaker wires give us? Eddie Budgetaudio wrote: Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could find yourself running new speaker wires for sure. Troy carbudgetaudio.com |
#103
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I know how installers work
John Durbin wrote:
However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points... I'm the same way. I'd go to another shop and pay full retail for their harness before hacking one myself. One problemwith harnesses is that they aren't always right. Alot of these kids today (the ones Eddie is bitching about) would be dead in the water when a wire is in the wrong place, or like on some older Ford trucks where the front speaker negatives are switched or are common ground. -- -- thelizman http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio "It's about the music, stupid" |
#104
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I know how installers work
Eddie Runner wrote:
running new speaker wires? In what instance? Everytime? Why? What advantages do new speaker wires give us? Budgetaudio wrote: Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could find yourself running new speaker wires for sure. NO! STOP! IT'S A TRAP!!! (Hint: Check Ohms law against stock wire gauges and runs - most car wiring is sufficient for the current output of many amplifiers). -- thelizman http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio "It's about the music, stupid" |
#105
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I know how installers work
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door
speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial. JD I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-) Mark Zarella wrote: you're not driving a Miata, are you? No, why? |
#106
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I know how installers work
Double if you WATCH, triple if you help...
JD Rick Davis wrote: Eddie Runner wrote in message ... In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way. That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help." |
#107
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installers SUCK!
yeah... and further back, the Ampex "microcassette" which was a
whale-sized hump mount deck... not sure why they though it was micro anything, it was freaking huge. JD Eddie Runner wrote: those old powerplay amps were killer for the day! Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players! the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay on peaks to let you know the amp was workin.... John Durbin wrote: Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his component values to work with the input impedances etc. Dude sure was proud of it though... JD Eddie Runner wrote: John Durbin wrote: My all-time favorite: His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers (who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it.... In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was hooked to the two rear speakers.... I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess) and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from me.... HA HA HA HA HA HA I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!! JUST HANGING THERE!!!! SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA Thats an install I will never forget... Eddie Runner |
#108
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
One of my all time favorites was the Panasonic COCKPIT!
that was really neat at the time with the joystick fader and the big one had a seperate 4 channel amp... Customers used to ask me all the time "Eddie, do you think the cassette will ever catch on and take the place of the 8 track?" There was no doubt because casssettes were so slim you could carry a bunch of them as oppposed to the HUGE 8 track cartidges.... Years later folks would ask me "Eddie, do you think CDs will ever take the place of cassette tapes?" There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record industry that was kept out of most consumers hands... I must be delierious..?? Just working late tonight finishing up a job in an H2 for a baseball player.... ha ha Eddie Runner John Durbin wrote: yeah... and further back, the Ampex "microcassette" which was a whale-sized hump mount deck... not sure why they though it was micro anything, it was freaking huge. JD Eddie Runner wrote: those old powerplay amps were killer for the day! Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players! the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay on peaks to let you know the amp was workin.... John Durbin wrote: Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his component values to work with the input impedances etc. Dude sure was proud of it though... JD Eddie Runner wrote: John Durbin wrote: My all-time favorite: His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm an electrical engineer" I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers (who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it.... In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was hooked to the two rear speakers.... I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess) and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from me.... HA HA HA HA HA HA I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!! JUST HANGING THERE!!!! SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA Thats an install I will never forget... Eddie Runner |
#109
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I know how installers work
A 90's toyota MR2 has 8's in the door. Not the convertible.
" Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial. JD I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-) Mark Zarella wrote: you're not driving a Miata, are you? No, why? |
#111
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:33:03 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote: One of my all time favorites was the Panasonic COCKPIT! that was really neat at the time with the joystick fader and the big one had a seperate 4 channel amp... Customers used to ask me all the time "Eddie, do you think the cassette will ever catch on and take the place of the 8 track?" There was no doubt because casssettes were so slim you could carry a bunch of them as oppposed to the HUGE 8 track cartidges.... Years later folks would ask me "Eddie, do you think CDs will ever take the place of cassette tapes?" There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record industry that was kept out of most consumers hands... I must be delierious..?? Just working late tonight finishing up a job in an H2 for a baseball player.... ha ha Eddie Runner John Durbin wrote: maybe now they will ask if DVD decks will catch on i cant wait for holigram displays on HU's. |
#112
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I know how installers work
Don't forget some of the Bose systems...
As forgettable as they may be. "John Durbin" wrote in message ... Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial. JD I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-) Mark Zarella wrote: you're not driving a Miata, are you? No, why? |
#113
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I know how installers work
John Durbin wrote:
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial. Toyota Celicas had them for a few years in the early 90's -- thelizman http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio "It's about the music, stupid" |
#114
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I know how installers work
John Durbin wrote:
That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help." Double if you WATCH, triple if you help... That's what the prostitute said to my girlfriend once. -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" |
#115
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
Eddie Runner wrote:
There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record industry that was kept out of most consumers hands... Nice conspiracy theory, but I remember looking at dats and thinking "man, it takes forever to fastward a tape, but those CD's are sure fast...". -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" |
#116
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I know how installers work
Masterson wrote:
A 90's toyota MR2 has 8's in the door. Not the convertible. THEY HAD 8 FOOT SPEAKERS? HOLY ****! The Celicas also had 8" speakers, and you could get 8s and a convertible top. (The Grammar Nazi Says: Ze apostrophe iz not uzed zu indicate plurality) -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" |
#117
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I know how installers work
Volvo C70 has Dynaudio 8's stock in the front doors
thelizman wrote: John Durbin wrote: Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial. Toyota Celicas had them for a few years in the early 90's -- thelizman http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio "It's about the music, stupid" |
#118
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
Yeah but your forgetting you couldnt record on CDs back then!
DATS were asked about everyday and no one could get them, the public was really anticipating the DAT to become the next serious media but it never happened thanks to the record industrys fears... Of course the CD now that it is easily recordable and so damn cheap is much better for most of us.. It backfired on the record industry this time.... (greedy *******s) Eddie thelizman wrote: Eddie Runner wrote: There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record industry that was kept out of most consumers hands... Nice conspiracy theory, but I remember looking at dats and thinking "man, it takes forever to fastward a tape, but those CD's are sure fast...". -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" |
#119
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
Eddie Runner wrote:
Yeah but your forgetting you couldnt record on CDs back then! DATS were asked about everyday and no one could get them, the public was really anticipating the DAT to become the next serious media but it never happened thanks to the record industrys fears... Of course the CD now that it is easily recordable and so damn cheap is much better for most of us.. It backfired on the record industry this time.... (greedy *******s) I don't know eddie, i just can't buy into there being an effort by the record industry to kill DAT. I mean on the short scale, yes, because groups like the RIAA have opposed every new media to come along - VHS & Beta, cassette tapes, Minidisc, and now MP3. They want to control all aspects of the distribution of their product, which is natural. But in this case I don't see them being a major factor. DAT was expensive - ungodly expensive. When I shopped for DAT players in 1995, they were about a grand, and the tapes were $20 each blank. Minidisc on the other hand was out at the same time, and while ATRAC II sounded assy compared to PCM/CDA used on DAT, it was a far site (far sound?) better than most cassette players. To me, a $400 minidisc player with blank media costing about $5 each was a whole lot better deal, even with the trade off in audio quality. It wasnt but about four years after that that CD-R/RW technology was cheap enough to beat the DATs, which were waning anyway. It seems more likely to me that DAT was simply introduced too late. Had the technology been made available mid mid 80's, it would have been competitive with CDs, and would have likely been a low cost option back then instead of the high-end esoteric piece most consumers I know saw it as. JMO. -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than the rec.audio.car newsgroup without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#120
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Old Stuff installers SUCK!
Im talkin before 1990 Liz.... 96 or 97 probably
The only DAT players out were pro units, a few places had them for rent.. it was common for folks to rent them and then never return them loosing the $2000 deposit... Just so they could get one. The RIAA delayed the introduction of the DAT to the American market for years...They didnt want the conumers to have such high quality recodings they could make themselves. there was no minidisk or any other competition back then By 1995 when you discovered DAT, it was out already and so many other things were good competition so it never caught on and never got inexpensive... Dont forget Lizzy, you will always be a newbie to me.... Im talking nearly a decade before you found DAT ... ;-) Eddie Runner thelizman wrote: I don't know eddie, i just can't buy into there being an effort by the record industry to kill DAT. I mean on the short scale, yes, because groups like the RIAA have opposed every new media to come along - VHS & Beta, cassette tapes, Minidisc, and now MP3. They want to control all aspects of the distribution of their product, which is natural. But in this case I don't see them being a major factor. DAT was expensive - ungodly expensive. When I shopped for DAT players in 1995, they were about a grand, and the tapes were $20 each blank. Minidisc on the other hand was out at the same time, and while ATRAC II sounded assy compared to PCM/CDA used on DAT, it was a far site (far sound?) better than most cassette players. To me, a $400 minidisc player with blank media costing about $5 each was a whole lot better deal, even with the trade off in audio quality. It wasnt but about four years after that that CD-R/RW technology was cheap enough to beat the DATs, which were waning anyway. It seems more likely to me that DAT was simply introduced too late. Had the technology been made available mid mid 80's, it would have been competitive with CDs, and would have likely been a low cost option back then instead of the high-end esoteric piece most consumers I know saw it as. JMO. -- thelizman teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than the rec.audio.car newsgroup without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
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