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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine them toraise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

Just for fun, I want to add some instrumental and harmony vocal parts
to a CD track that's sparsely arranged and I think would benefit from
it.

Of course the original CD track was mixed for the arrangement that's
on the track, so to boost the solo vocal to compensate for the added
elements, I'm using a vocal isolator plugin to create a second track
with the vocal emphasized.

This actually works pretty well but the problem I encounter is that
the resulting boosted lead vocal takes on a bit of a "honking"
character, which I assume is because of the combination of the
frequencies of the original and isolated vocals.

What I'd like to do is get rid of this effect and make the vocal
louder but retain as much of the character of the vocal on the
original track as possible - i.e. louder but not harsh.

What I've come up with so far is using a paragraphic EQ with the gain
backed off quite a bit and a boosted section to sweep and find the
frequency that yields the highest db peak, which I assume is going to
be the most prominent "honking" frequency, then cut that frequency in
both the isolated vocal and the original CD track. As to how much to
cut and how wide a cut to make, I guess that would be matter of
experimentation.

Does this sound like a plan or is there a better way to do it?
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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

Thought I'd add that when I refer to "honking" I'm not taking about a
phasey sound, the two tracks are exactly sync'd. Just obvious spkiness
that isn't as prominent in either individually.

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Nil Nil is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine them to raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On 05 Mar 2009, muzician21 wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

Does this sound like a plan or is there a better way to do it?


There's no way to know for sure but to try it. I think it's going to
sound lousy, but maybe it will be good enough for your purpose.
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yrret yrret is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine them to raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

Well if you got time to burn and a fisherman's patience. Splice the honky
moments, brief as they may be. Create a second version of the isolated
vocals using other techniques to fill in the gaps. These other techniques
could be a variety of things. EQ out the insturments best as you can
manage, use a modern noise removal tool with the insturment sampled as the
'noise'. If its a stereo track do the left and right seperately and put
together the best of each as your new source track.


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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On Mar 5, 2:36*pm, Nil wrote:
On 05 Mar 2009, muzician21 wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

Does this sound like a plan or is there a better way to do it?


There's no way to know for sure but to try it. I think it's going to
sound lousy, but maybe it will be good enough for your purpose.



Actually, it doesn't sound bad. I think if you'd never heard the track
before and didn't know I'd been monkeying with it, I really don't
think you'd notice anything unusual. There are some artifacts with the
vocal isolation but they're far enough below the level of the vocal
and there's so much going on you can't hear them in the mix.

I've been using a plugin called "Extraboy" to isolate the vocal. If
anyone knows of a better one, I'd be interested to know about it.


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Dec [Cluskey] Dec [Cluskey] is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On Mar 6, 5:41*am, muzician21 wrote:
On Mar 5, 2:36*pm, Nil wrote:


I've been using a plugin called "Extraboy" to isolate the vocal. If
anyone knows of a better one, I'd be interested to know about it.


Muzician 21

You may have answered a big question for me.

I have tinkered with trying to isolate and 'get rid' of lead vocals as
I am constantly asked by friends to 'knock off a back track' ... I
have never got involved in making back tracks [no money in it] but
from a curiosity angle have wanted to prove that it was IMPOSSIBLE to
complete obliterate a lead vocal and have a decent back track.

The last programme I used was 'Vocal Remover' a software based on
'Audacity' developed by a team of independent developers around the
world. The results were dissappointing and the system laborious to
use.

Also, my curiosity was spurred on by the excellent dub mixes around
and the mix shows here in the UK on Radio One. The DJs seem to have
access to absolutely clean lead vocals to drop into mixes at will.

I have always felt that the record companies supply these clean tracks
to top DJ's to promote their current chart entries of those vocalists.

Now you have spoken of "Extraboy" ... it would seem that my thinking
is wrong?

Regards
Dec Cluskey


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

Dec [Cluskey] wrote:
I have tinkered with trying to isolate and 'get rid' of lead vocals as
I am constantly asked by friends to 'knock off a back track' ... I
have never got involved in making back tracks [no money in it] but
from a curiosity angle have wanted to prove that it was IMPOSSIBLE to
complete obliterate a lead vocal and have a decent back track.


It depends on the original mix. If there is no stereo reverb on the lead
vocal and there is nothing else mixed to the center, you can remove the
vocal pretty effectively.

The last programme I used was 'Vocal Remover' a software based on
'Audacity' developed by a team of independent developers around the
world. The results were dissappointing and the system laborious to
use.


The standard unit for this is the Thompson Vocal Eliminator. Earlier ones
were just a difference amplifier that generated an L-R signal, and a
low-pass filter that brought back in bass that was mixed to the center.
Modern ones have some DSP smarts in them.

Also, my curiosity was spurred on by the excellent dub mixes around
and the mix shows here in the UK on Radio One. The DJs seem to have
access to absolutely clean lead vocals to drop into mixes at will.


Okay, this is a totally different issue. It's a _lot_ easier to remove
the vocals than to remove everything _but_ the vocals. There are some newer
pieces of software out there that can kind of isolate vocals, but as the
original poster points out, they aren't quite satisfactory. Still, they
are pretty damn miraculous considering what is involved.

I have always felt that the record companies supply these clean tracks
to top DJ's to promote their current chart entries of those vocalists.


They do, yes. They don't just supply them to top DJs either... you can
buy all kinds of weird alternative mixes ("vocal only mix... double bongo mix")
in the DJ shops. Somewhere around here I have a couple LPs with about
thirty different mixes of the same song....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On Mar 6, 9:43*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Okay, this is a totally different issue. *It's a _lot_ easier to remove
the vocals than to remove everything _but_ the vocals. *There are some newer
pieces of software out there that can kind of isolate vocals, but as the
original poster points out, they aren't quite satisfactory. *Still, they
are pretty damn miraculous considering what is involved.



The Extraboy Pro site has some demos which include an isolated vocal
made under seemingly ideal conditions - very simple instrumentation
with rhythm hard to one side, piano on the other with very little
bleed over. Even under those highly unrealistic conditions the
isolated vocal isn't crystal clear. I'm not sure what you'd use the
isolation for other than the kind of thing I'm doing, or maybe for an
effect of some sort.
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muzician21 muzician21 is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On Mar 6, 10:23*pm, muzician21 wrote:

The Extraboy Pro site has some demos which include an isolated vocal
made under seemingly ideal conditions - very simple instrumentation
with rhythm hard to one side, piano on the other with very little
bleed over. Even under those highly unrealistic conditions the
isolated vocal isn't crystal clear.



I wonder though, if that Melodyne function can dissect individual
notes from a chord, if it could be applied toward vocal isolation? Or
even as a second step to use after applying the vocal isolator to
further trim it?
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Dec [Cluskey] Dec [Cluskey] is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

On Mar 6, 2:43*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
The standard unit for this is the Thompson Vocal Eliminator. *Earlier ones
were just a difference amplifier that generated an L-R signal, and a
low-pass filter that brought back in bass that was mixed to the center.
Modern ones have some DSP smarts in them.

entries of those vocalists.

They do, yes. *They don't just supply them to top DJs either... you can
buy all kinds of weird alternative mixes ("vocal only mix... double bongo mix")
in the DJ shops. *Somewhere around here I have a couple LPs with about
thirty different mixes of the same song....
--scott


Scott

Thank you for confirming my thoughts.

Now I wonder will my daughter [who knows 'everything', by the way]
believe me.

In years gone by there was a fad for giving alternate mixes of the
same track, even back tracks on the CD [I'm not talking remixes
here ... just alternate mixes of the same session]

I feel the minus lead vocal all started with the old Mastering
engineer trick of putting the track to be mastered out of phase ...
then turning to the client and saying: "is this the right mix, the
lead vocal is missing?" Yep, I well remember my first mastering
session ..... he was the guy who did all Sir Paul McCartney's
stuff ... we became friends after he realised I was a serious
producer.

Interesting you mention about bringing the bass back to original level
in the middle ... that had me a tad perplexed ... now I know.

Dec [Cluskey]


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Want to take a CD track, isolate the solo vocal then combine themto raise the level of the vocal but not create harshness

Dec [Cluskey] wrote:

Now I wonder will my daughter [who knows 'everything', by the way]
believe me.


Take her to DJ Hut in Washington DC. They have a website at www.djhut.com
but I don't know how many weird remix discs they have there.

Here's a cute one... instrumental mixes of Michael Jackson tracks:
http://store.djhut.com/store/product...ALS---UNKNOWN/

I feel the minus lead vocal all started with the old Mastering
engineer trick of putting the track to be mastered out of phase ...
then turning to the client and saying: "is this the right mix, the
lead vocal is missing?" Yep, I well remember my first mastering
session ..... he was the guy who did all Sir Paul McCartney's
stuff ... we became friends after he realised I was a serious
producer.


That is an evil trick.

Interesting you mention about bringing the bass back to original level
in the middle ... that had me a tad perplexed ... now I know.


Yes, because you _have_ to mix the bass and kick to the center or you
get a record that won't track right. Even with a CD, if you pan the low
end to the side, you can't make it quite as loud. So it's all in the
center and it all goes away when you get the L-R signal, unless you do
something specifically to fix that.

You still can't do anything about the lead guitar in the center dropping
out. When I worked in radio, I swapped the leads on the phono cartridge
on one channel and played the Beatles _Revolution_ in mono onto the 4-track.
The vocals dropped out, but all kinds of other stuff dropped out as well
which meant that when we added new lyrics to the song (which were silly
jingles about the station) it seemed kind of naked until we added a few
other parts...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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