[Arny Krueger]

"--D-y" wrote in message


The OP asked about studio use for the Presonus only in
reference to where it ranked in sonic quality to studio
gear.

In his ignorance, he didn't mean he was going to use one
in a recording studio; he was thinking of price, where
the Presonus was on one hand, expensive compared to lunch
money but on the other hand, probably really cheap
compared to vast arrays of knobs/buttons/ switches and
what they connect to in a stationary studio setup.

Having read his op, the OP understands he may have led the
conversation astray to some extent, but the question was
answered-- mainly, "not junk", if not really best suited
to the recording environment-- and, no surprise in this
ng, the discussion has been interesting and informative
for someone who has been in a few (maybe as many as four)
real studios but not for setting up or adjusting anything.

Interpreting the OP this way seems reasonable.

IOW, the OP was really asking whether the Presonus mic preamps and
converters were "Recording grade" as compared to "Live Sound grade",
presuming that live sound makes fewer demands on the sound quality of signal
processing equipment.

Despite my enthusiasm for live sound, I agree that live sound is a
less-critical environment because by definition it only happens once which
limits how critically people can possibly listen. Live sound also involves
operating microphones in the presence of loudspeakers playing the same
music, which obviously degrades sound quality.

Really, the trick is to find someone who actually has a Presonuc 24.4.2 and
is using it in a critical recording environment. It is a very new piece of
gear.

The only Presonus gear I have is a FW audio interface, which sounds good
enough in actual use, but is kind of middle-of-the road on the test bench.
Competivei products from M-Audio and eMu do better. The 24.4.2 may use the
same mic preamp chips and converters, or not.

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/3/2010 7:29 AM, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

EXACTLY , Mike, and this is the entire point of the "fat channel" and the
reason for the 24.4 to exisit
I see the Fat Channel as a expanded version of the first digital i owned
the A&H Icon.

Particularly important, many of the :PreSonus customers are too new to
the game to have ever owned or learned to use an analog mixer. Except
for the fact that you can only see one full set of channel controls at a
time, the StudioLive works pretty much like a traditional console.

Mackie used the name :Fat Channel on their d8b digital console. I'm
surprised that they let PreSonus get away with it - probably because the
d8b has been discontinued and is unlikely to be revived.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

[Sean Conolly]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"--D-y" wrote in message


Really, the trick is to find someone who actually has a Presonuc 24.4.2
and is using it in a critical recording environment. It is a very new
piece of gear.

I know one guy with the 16.4.2 who uses it live for PA and recording, and
also for studio recording, and he is very happy with it. He's an employed
engineer with one of the few studios in town that actually has a payrolled
staff, but I don't know if he's actually done a critical comparison in the
studio. I'll ask him next time I see him.

Sean

[--D-y]

On Nov 4, 7:04*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

The OP asked about studio use for the Presonus only in
reference to where it ranked in sonic quality to studio
gear.

Interpreting the OP this way seems reasonable.

IOW, *the OP was really asking whether the Presonus mic preamps and
converters were "Recording grade" as compared to "Live Sound grade",
presuming that live sound makes fewer demands on the sound quality of signal
processing equipment.

Yes, that is what I meant to ask.
Communication, the Final Frontier!

Despite my enthusiasm for live sound, I agree that live sound is a
less-critical environment because by definition it only happens once which
limits how critically people can possibly listen.

Well, I really wasn't thinking about this, but the gig I attended was
being recorded-- or, let's say an attempt was being made.
Following that, I've read where some acts have on-site "manufacturing
facilities" where event attenders may purchase CD recordings of the
event on their way out of the arena.

Live sound also involves
operating microphones in the presence of loudspeakers playing the same
music, which obviously degrades sound quality.

Really, the trick is to find someone who actually has a Presonuc 24.4.2 and
is using it in a critical recording environment. It is a very new piece of
gear.

The only Presonus gear I have is a FW audio interface, which sounds good
enough in actual use, but is kind of middle-of-the road on the test bench..
Competivei products from M-Audio and eMu do better. The 24.4.2 may use the
same mic preamp chips and converters, or not.

Thank you.
--D-y

[--D-y]

On Nov 4, 7:25*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/3/2010 7:29 AM, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

EXACTLY , Mike, and this is the entire point of the "fat channel" and the
reason for the 24.4 to exisit
I see the Fat Channel as a expanded version of the first digital i owned
the A&H Icon.

Particularly important, many of the :PreSonus customers are too new to
the game to have ever owned or learned to use an analog mixer. Except
for the fact that you can only see one full set of channel controls at a
time, the StudioLive works pretty much like a traditional console.

Mackie used the name :Fat Channel on their d8b digital console. I'm
surprised that they let PreSonus get away with it - probably because the
d8b has been discontinued and is unlikely to be revived.

The "Fat" terminology was confusing to someone (me) who wandered in
from left field. If other labeling had been used, perhaps this poor
OP, who was brand-new to this console but who had operated simple old
analog PA systems back before the turn of the century, might have been
able to run the board right then, at least IRT simple level
adjustments. Heck, once the "Fat" meaning was explained (don't forget,
I was just standing physical watch over a board that was sitting out
in the audience area, "not touching nuthin'"), to me, that was one of
the coolest things about this Presonus. Hit a button and see what was
going on very quickly, wall-to-wall display, so to speak, with one
particular input (or output?), and be able to do what might be wanted
in pretty straightforward fashion.

IOW (explaining from a lay perspective), you get a lot of functional
control with reduced "visual complication", compared to acres of
knobs, switches, sliders, buttons. Not like in a studio layout, where
you can use (non-portable) space to have (effectively) "hardware
displays" of everything that is going on all at once, with, of course,
an operator who is well used to um, operating that way.

(There being slight signs of life in the old horse), a couple of years
ago I was invited to "do sound" as an emergency last-minute fill-in at
basically this same gig, with the only difference being a different
console which I found totally confusing to run. Adjustments were
needed on the fly, and I was still floundering, trying to figure out
where everything was among the tiny little knobs, etc.-- a far cry
from my old Tapco 6100 g. Never a good feeling, when "the boss" had
to interrupt playing and move the right knob ("now I know", which is
not a warm/fuzzy, either). One of those public "DUH" moments. Instant
relief with the New!!! Improved!!! Presonus Fat Channel Feature...

I googled the Yamaha consoles referred to here. Um, better, cost twice
as much (approx. as I saw no 24-hole Yamahas)-- would that be a fair,
first-glance assessment?
--D-y

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

I googled the Yamaha consoles referred to here. Um, better, cost twice
as much (approx. as I saw no 24-hole Yamahas)-- would that be a fair,
first-glance assessment?
--D-y

yamah is now baseing everything on groups of 16
so you get the 16 xlr in ls9/16 which can be expanded via a card
slot+external a-d converters and preamps to 32 inputs
and the ls9/32 which has 32on board pres and can be expanded via slots and
outboard to 64 channels
the only product that is price comparable to the presonus 24.4 is the o1v
96V2 it has fewer on board mic pres but a better (more capable) dynamics
engine
for studio I would probably choose the yamaha for live if I was shopping in
the under 2500$ price it would be the presonus
in fact I had one ordered but they kept pushing back the initial ship date
and I had to cancel when it got to be June last year and no firm delivery
was offered
george

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/4/2010 10:45 AM, --D-y wrote:

Well, I really wasn't thinking about this, but the gig I attended was
being recorded-- or, let's say an attempt was being made.
Following that, I've read where some acts have on-site "manufacturing
facilities" where event attenders may purchase CD recordings of the
event on their way out of the arena.

That was a hot item half a dozen or so years back. Now, they sell USB
armbands. I've never seen one in the plastic, but apparently this is a
USB drive that you can wear around your wrist. I suspect that even
though enough flash memory for a full CD in PCM format is dirt cheap
nowadays, they probably load these with MP3 files, because that's what
the users understand.

Of course you could make a live mix of the show (assuming someone's on
the ball) and duplicate that after the show (I usually do that for the
performers) but the big boys have a truck or portable setup in a room
where they record a mic split into ProTools, Someone is working on a mix
in real time, then they "master" it and start a duplication run before
the final applause dies off. Usually they'll have a stack of CD writers
or USB copiers so they can run off a couple of dozen copies in a minute
or two.

This isn't something that you'd want to attempt with a StuidoLive, a
laptop computer, and no mixing engineer unless it was understood that
the end product would likely be pretty rough. But you know, some people
like that.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/4/2010 11:16 AM, --D-y wrote:

I googled the Yamaha consoles referred to here. Um, better, cost twice
as much (approx. as I saw no 24-hole Yamahas)-- would that be a fair,
first-glance assessment?

Um . . . you'll have to talk to Arny about that. He has an answer for
everything. g
(and most of them are correct, too, though often from his own perspective)

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

[Arny Krueger]

"--D-y" wrote in message


The "Fat" terminology was confusing to someone (me) who wandered in
from left field.

" The FAT channel" is similar to "The Selected channel" on the Yammies.
The older, smaller yammies don't have a dedicated knob for every function on
the selected channel. For example Q and F are the same knob on the
parametric eq on an 02R96. You push it to flip it. Newer models (LS9, M7CL)
and the more expensive older models (DM2000) have a more complete selection
of dedicated knobs.

I googled the Yamaha consoles referred to here. Um,
better, cost twice as much (approx. as I saw no 24-hole
Yamahas)-- would that be a fair, first-glance assessment?

An 01V96 can be made into a 24 channel box by adding an ADA8000. Mid-$2k
new, with used equipment available since the product has been on the market
for a few years.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

On 11/4/2010 10:45 AM, --D-y wrote:

Well, I really wasn't thinking about this, but the gig I
attended was being recorded-- or, let's say an attempt
was being made.

Following that, I've read where some acts have on-site
"manufacturing facilities" where event attenders may
purchase CD recordings of the event on their way out of
the arena.

Not uncommon. This definately puts a low roof on post-production efforts.

That was a hot item half a dozen or so years back. Now,
they sell USB armbands. I've never seen one in the
plastic, but apparently this is a USB drive that you can
wear around your wrist. I suspect that even though enough
flash memory for a full CD in PCM format is dirt cheap
nowadays,

If you can even buy something so small as a 512K USB flash drive any more,
it will hold most CDs as .wav files. FLACs are half the size, and not lossy
compressed.

they probably load these with MP3 files,
because that's what the users understand.

MP3 is the one format that virtually every digital player handles.

Of course you could make a live mix of the show (assuming
someone's on the ball) and duplicate that after the show
(I usually do that for the performers) but the big boys
have a truck or portable setup in a room where they
record a mic split into ProTools, Someone is working on a
mix in real time, then they "master" it and start a
duplication run before the final applause dies off.
Usually they'll have a stack of CD writers or USB copiers
so they can run off a couple of dozen copies in a minute
or two.

It's a business!

This isn't something that you'd want to attempt with a
StuidoLive, a laptop computer, and no mixing engineer
unless it was understood that the end product would
likely be pretty rough. But you know, some people like
that.

If the audience were exclusively into really good sound, they wouldn't go
near an arena, anyway. ;-)

As a souvenir of the life's experience, probably the product is probably not
all that bad. If it keeps audio techies profitably employed, it can't be
that bad at all!

[--D-y]

On Nov 4, 10:49*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/4/2010 10:45 AM, --D-y wrote:

Well, I really wasn't thinking about this, but the gig I attended was
being recorded-- or, let's say an attempt was being made.
Following that, I've read where some acts have on-site "manufacturing
facilities" where event attenders may purchase CD recordings of the
event on their way out of the arena.

That was a hot item half a dozen or so years back. Now, they sell USB
armbands. I've never seen one in the plastic, but apparently this is a
USB drive that you can wear around your wrist. I suspect that even
though enough flash memory for a full CD in PCM format is dirt cheap
nowadays, they probably load these with MP3 files, because that's what
the users understand.

"It's so hard to keep up when you don't get out much".

Of course you could make a live mix of the show (assuming someone's on
the ball) and duplicate that after the show (I usually do that for the
performers) but the big boys have a truck or portable setup in a room
where they record a mic split into ProTools, Someone is working on a mix
in real time, then they "master" it and start a duplication run before
the final applause dies off. Usually they'll have a stack of CD writers
or USB copiers so they can run off a couple of dozen copies in a minute
or two.

This isn't something that you'd want to attempt with a StuidoLive, a
laptop computer, and no mixing engineer unless it was understood that
the end product would likely be pretty rough. But you know, some people
like that.

Understand "big boys" and MP3 armbands, although I still buy CD's,
even though I have iPod and Shuffle(s). Sigh. I make CD copies via
Roxio Toast or Apple Lossless (by whatever name) for use in hostile
environments (car, mostly). Well, that's what happens when you can
still remember when 78's left and 33-1/3's came in...

My friend related playing a "big room" (relative) gig for a
professional convention of fun-seekers, where the "ice-breaker" (if
one were really needed) was a somewhat wobbly presentation of song by
a ranking member of the org,, which was roundly enjoyed, as intended.
An aural memento might have been very welcome, even given a rough mix
and MP3 format. And that, I imagine that there would be some "out the
door" sales and add'l via subsequent "mail-out" offers.
--D-y

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/4/2010 11:59 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

" The FAT channel" is similar to "The Selected channel" on the Yammies.

I was really just talking about the name "Fat Channel" being used
(first, as far as I can remember, with a digital console) by Mackie. The
concept of the "channel strip sideways" like what the PreSonus
StudioLive has also been done before. Soundcraft had a digital console,
the 828 or 824 or something like that where I first saw that user
interface concept.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

On 11/4/2010 11:59 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

" The FAT channel" is similar to "The Selected
channel" on the Yammies.

I was really just talking about the name "Fat Channel"
being used (first, as far as I can remember, with a
digital console) by Mackie. The concept of the "channel
strip sideways" like what the PreSonus StudioLive has
also been done before. Soundcraft had a digital console,
the 828 or 824 or something like that where I first saw
that user interface concept.

Compared to the classic Mackie mixers (e.g. SR32) the channel on even a
Presonus is pretty "fat" in the sense that there's a lot more meat on the
bones.

In retrospect I can see how things like setting aux sends on a Yammie
digital console can be pretty strange for someone coming out of a SR32.

I don't know why it didn't phase me when I first saw it, but seeing all of
the aux send level controls for each aux bus on one screen always seemed
more logical to me.

[Thomas Hartkop]

THIS IS MY FIRST POST:

Lets talk Presonus StudioLive. I have 2 16:4:2 boards ganged together with a quad core macPro. It is stable and I have never had it crash. The problems at first had to do with the software. I have StudioOne Pro 1.5 to 1.6. But, I only use it for mastering. I have interfaced it with Cubase 4 then Cubase 5. Why? The StudioOne crashed and I lost an evening of recording a country group and had very unhappy people. Cubase 5 also has pitch control. IT IS STABLE!

I just recorded a local Univerisity Jazz Ensemble and ran 28 tracks at once in my studio. 25 mikes and direct from the base and electric piano. It works great.

The key to getting great recordings is the microphones. I started recording in the late 1950s. Back then there was no EQ to speak of. I just had faders. With time I have moved from 124824 track machines with 2" tape. Now, with digital, it is much easier for editing but the way to get good recordings is to pick the right microphone first for the right application. Then little or no EQ is needed. The recording that I am finishing and editing will have NO EQ! I don't need it. I have used pads when necessary on some of the mikes. I also use gobos for isolation.

To get the fine nuances of musical instruments including brass and woodwinds good condensers are needed. The growl of alto saxes I use ribbons. SM57s are always used on the snare and 414xls used as drum overheads. Most guitar amps will do well with a large diaphram dynamic or condenser mic. Bass drum AKG D112 or RE-27.

Vocals are always hard. Males Neumann M149 or AKG414xl2 and for females Rode NTK, AKG 414 xls or Neumann TLM-103 (almost like the XLS).

The bit wars is another topic for another day! Acoustic recording is also for the future also.

In microphones, if you still have your hearing after using iPods with MP3 compression there really is a difference between microphones. It is in the fine nuances that is the difference in the overtones that makes you listen to a singer and feel like they are in the room with you.

The Presonus StudioLive board is a great machine. Much more stable in the Mac configuration than the PC. I can run both on my Mac. This is a very transparent board with very little if any coloration. The AD converters are great. StudioLiveCubase 5MacPro QuadcoreTannoy monitors can't be beat!
Tom

[Arny Krueger]

"Thomas Hartkop"
wrote in message

THIS IS MY FIRST POST:

Lets talk Presonus StudioLive. I have 2 16:4:2 boards
ganged together with a quad core macPro. It is stable
and I have never had it crash. The problems at first had
to do with the software. I have StudioOne Pro
1.5 to 1.6. But, I only use it for mastering. I have
interfaced it with Cubase 4 then Cubase 5. Why? The
StudioOne crashed and I lost an evening of recording a
country group and had very unhappy people. Cubase 5 also
has pitch control. IT IS STABLE!

You seem to have very low expectations. I've had a Yamaha digital console
for over 5 years which I use several times a week and have never ever had it
crash. No lost gigs, ever. I have a friend who has another one and his has
gone for almost 7 years of daily use with no crashes.

Yamaha digital consoles have some very valuable feature that no current
Presonus consoles have, one of which which is called expansion card bays.
The catalog of things that you can plug into them for recording and live
sound is very complete. Another valuable feature that they have which
Presonus does not have is patching of all inputs and outputs. You can remap
all of the input and output jacks, many of which don't even need to be part
of the console. Yes, they allow signficiant expansion without buying more
consoles. What a concept!

The feature of Yamaha consoles that seems to cause some consternation among
some prospective users relates to their ability to remap the same knob or
switch for multiple purposes. You don't really appreciate this unless you
start doing gigs with well over 30 active inputs, at which point having to
reach over a big long console to twist some tiny knob that wants to lose
itself in a field of zillions of other tiny knobs gets old pretty fast.
Having just one set of knobs for about 66 parametric eqs makes my day.
Having only 26 (24 input/output + 2 out) faders to control 56 inputs and 10
outputs, ditto.

I continue to be mystified over the enthusiasm for the two new Presonus
consoles. It appears that one's appreciation for them is greatly enhanced by
a lack of knowledge about what Yamaha has had working reliably and for
competitive prices for like 10 years.