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#81
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
On 10/24/03 1:39 PM, Jay - atldigi eloquently wrote:
In article , Carlos Alden wrote: How about B. O'R? Is he going to "take a breath and take a couple of weeks to reflect again on how (he) view(s) things, and review (his) basic assumptions in order to check (him)self?" I doubt it, but I didn't hear I still prefer to strive for a more forthright discourse and not excuse one person's bad behavior because of another's. Even if Bill doesn't get it, this doesn't mean that Terry and the rest of us are free to misbehave. This puts us on the slippery slope to more extreme forms of the rationalization where it's OK to hold predjudices against and mistreat the percieved bad guys of the moment. A common thread in this discussion seems to be "we don't like Bill so it's OK to treat him badly" and that's an unfortunate rationale. Well, to clarify, I stated that I generally like B. O'R, and a lot of his ideas. (Or maybe you mean Terry Gross doesn't like B'O'R.) I certainly didn't say it was aacceptable for Terry to be unprofessional due to me, or her, or anyone else "not liking B. O'R." My point is that B. O'R seemed to be generating at least half the friction in the interview with his arrogance, his condescension, his patronizing, and his SPIN. I think he set himself up with expectations of what Terry, NPR, and his idea of a secular media are, maybe intentionally, to make it look like he was being victimized. I can understand how he might have gone in there like that. I've heard some guests on his show who don't have a chance merely based on what he thinks they have to say and where they are coming from. I've heard him twist and interrupt and cut people off and use rhetoric just to make them sound silly. Again, my point here is not to say "he does it so it's okay for Terry to have done it, " but rather to point out that he was a big part of that interview and it's simply inaccurate to say "oooh, what a bad interviewer, she wasn't ethical and didn't stick to his book, ooooh, bad liberal agenda, trying to shoot down someone who stands up for the rest of us against the liberal elite." To be honest, I think Terry was less harsh on him than he's been on a lot of guests. And that's fine, isn't it? I mean, she's a different person and has a different interview style. Again, for the record, I like a lot of his ideas and what he has to say, and I think he's a great entertainer as well. If you just look at how the interview went without filtering it through a political viewpoint, then, in my opinion, it's pretty clear that he was doing the dance, too. Carlos |
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#82
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
Jay - atldigi wrote:
In article , Carlos Alden wrote: How about B. O'R? Is he going to "take a breath and take a couple of weeks to reflect again on how (he) view(s) things, and review (his) basic assumptions in order to check (him)self?" I doubt it, but I didn't hear I still prefer to strive for a more forthright discourse and not excuse one person's bad behavior because of another's. Even if Bill doesn't get it, this doesn't mean that Terry and the rest of us are free to misbehave. This puts us on the slippery slope to more extreme forms of the rationalization where it's OK to hold predjudices against and mistreat the percieved bad guys of the moment. A common thread in this discussion seems to be "we don't like Bill so it's OK to treat him badly" and that's an unfortunate rationale. In the culture wars, there is a complex game involving holding the opposition to a set of standards, often appropriate ones, while defending one's own behavior. When the opposition points out that the accuser is guilty of the same behavior, that is when the discourse begins to splinter. One reason for this is that the first side believes the second side is blind to its own faults, and will deflect well-founded criticism using any and all means at hand, which raises the fear that the exchange will result in a net loss for the first side if only the first side were to concede its own shortcomings, regardless of how well-founded the criticism is. This perpetuates attacks on both sides ad inifinitum. For the record, I find fault on both sides, though I find that each commits its mistakes in somewhat different "in-group" ways. As an aside...having lived mostly among liberals myself, I do know that they are critical of themselves and have a sense of humor about it. Most don't remember that the whole PC thing began as a bit of self-deprecating humor. Thirty years ago, all uses of the term PC were accompanied by rolling of the eyes and the expression of "as if we have all the answers". Later, someone took that ball and ran with it. Luke |
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#84
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
It's known as "judging others by their actions and yourself by your
intentions" In the culture wars, there is a complex game involving holding the opposition to a set of standards, often appropriate ones, while defending one's own behavior. When the opposition points out that the accuser is guilty of the same behavior, that is when the discourse begins to splinter. |
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#85
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
Not only was it a cheap shot, it wasn't true. I took it to be a cheap laugh,
did you mean something else? Do you really think that you see examples of this kind of behavior from Bush and Cheney daily? Where do you get your information? Oh, you mean you were exagerrating? For effect? For a laugh from your liberal friends? To take shot at Will? To take a shot at right wingers? Please explain... I'm sure you agree there are many things that are legal but less than sterling morally. This at least falls into that category, but given that he... Yes, we see examples from Bush and Cheney daily. 2 points for the man from Michigan. Naah, 2 points are for actually addressing the issue or contributing to the dialogue in a meaningful way. Cheap shots for laughs are like a 1/4 point... So Will Miho gets to determine (or thinks he does), for everyone, what "the dialogue" will be and what constitutes meaning? I love the Right Winger attitude towards everything. You sound just like Bill O'Reilly himself there. O'Reilly's major contribution to the world is arrogance--just what we need more of. (And "cheap shot"? This is our president and vice president for cryin out loud) Koen |
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#86
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
So Will Miho gets to determine (or thinks he does), for everyone, what "the dialogue" will be and what constitutes meaning? I love the Right Winger attitude towards everything. You sound just like Bill O'Reilly himself there. O'Reilly's major contribution to the world is arrogance--just what we need more of. (And "cheap shot"? This is our president and vice president for cryin out loud) Koen Aahhh, the old "who are you to judge" argument. Everything's relative, right? Well let me point out that you've judged that Will Miho determines what "the dialog" will be for everyone, and that Bill O'Reilly's major contribution to the world is arrogance. Your statement is just an elitist way of saying, "shut up." It's also a highbrow way of doing what you all are accusing Bill O' Reilly of doing. Not allowing people to state their points. What confuses me is that you mix in a little absolute (corny, I know) when you say, "I love the Right Winger attitude towards everything." If the Right Wingers have the same attitude towards everything, then that would be an absolute, no? Maybe you're more of a conservative than you think there Koen. |
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#87
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#88
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
In article , Carlos Alden
wrote: Well, to clarify, I stated that I generally like B. O'R, and a lot of his ideas. (Or maybe you mean Terry Gross doesn't like B'O'R.) I certainly didn't say it was aacceptable for Terry to be unprofessional due to me, or her, or anyone else "not liking B. O'R." My point is that B. O'R seemed to be generating at least half the friction in the interview with his I was speaking of the thread in general, not trying to single you out. That one part of your post was simply the catalyst at the moment. Your point is understood - that it takes two to tango. My point, which I think you understand, is that it would have been better for Terry not to have fed the bears. -- Jay Frigoletto Mastersuite Los Angeles promastering.com |
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#89
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote:
It's known as "judging others by their actions and yourself by your intentions" In the culture wars, there is a complex game involving holding the opposition to a set of standards, often appropriate ones, while defending one's own behavior. When the opposition points out that the accuser is guilty of the same behavior, that is when the discourse begins to splinter. I pretty much agree, only I'd add that if someone has a *genuine* intention, then they also have an accompanying disposition to actually behave accordingly. Luke |
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#90
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
On 10/25/03 2:00 AM, Jay - atldigi eloquently wrote:
My point, which I think you understand, is that it would have been better for Terry not to have fed the bears. -- Jay Frigoletto Yes! Nicely put. However, I don't object to talk journalists (as a lot, not just this specific incident) feeding the bears as a way to see who they are and what they do. Carlos |
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#91
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
In article , Carlos Alden
wrote: On 10/25/03 2:00 AM, Jay - atldigi eloquently wrote: is that it would have been better for Terry not to have fed the bears. Yes! Nicely put. However, I don't object to talk journalists (as a lot, not just this specific incident) feeding the bears as a way to see who they are and what they do. Carlos Yes, though I would think that they should start off cordially to get that side of the picture before they start waving the bacon around. -- Jay Frigoletto Mastersuite Los Angeles promastering.com |
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#92
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 9:23 PM, wrote:
If being educated is a cause for derision, what would be preferred? "Ignorance is Strength", what was the reasoning behind that again? I think it was in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", it said people who speak English too well are derided as being stuffy and pompus. I liked Naomi Klien's peice in the The Nation about Hugo Chavez a few months back . Bush phoned up to congradulate the millitary coupe officers... but their Coupe only lasted three days and then democratically elected Chavez was back. I guess America doesn't think Democracy is the way to go, in Venezuela. --------------------------------------------------------- "You Teach A Child To Read, And He Or Her Will Be Able To Pass A Literacy Test" - George W Bush - Townsend Tn . Feb 21rst -2001 --------------------------------------------------------- |
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#93
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 9:23 PM, wrote:
If being educated is a cause for derision, what would be preferred? "Ignorance is Strength", what was the reasoning behind that again? I think it was in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", it said people who speak English too well are derided as being stuffy and pompus. I liked Naomi Klien's peice in the The Nation about Hugo Chavez a few months back . Bush phoned up to congradulate the millitary coupe officers... but their Coupe only lasted three days and then democratically elected Chavez was back. I guess America doesn't think Democracy is the way to go, in Venezuela. --------------------------------------------------------- "You Teach A Child To Read, And He Or Her Will Be Able To Pass A Literacy Test" - George W Bush - Townsend Tn . Feb 21rst -2001 --------------------------------------------------------- |
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#94
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#96
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
I subscribe to the Nation. It's not "news," it's analysis of current
events in the light of circumstances not conveyed by outlets such as Fox or CNN. The Nation has been in publication for nearly 150 years. Analysis.... That reminds me of the commercial for the New York Times where the lady says "I read the New York Times because it gives me so many different ways to understand a story." How many different ways do we need to understand a story? Well, certainly the way the editor wants you to understand it? How about reporting the facts and letting us sort it out? This reminds me of when you watch a State of the Union. Afterwards the network anchor will come on and explain to you what you've just heard. I don't need to be told what I just heard! For an experiment, the next time you watch one of these, switch around to all the networks and see how differently they explain what you've just heard. Sometimes I wonder if they all listened to the same speech. Be careful with the word "analysis" when used in context with The Nation. Post Op and persuasive writng would be better descriptors. It's common for people to read publications that support their world view. I do it. However I also like to sniff around to see what's going on in the other camps as well. Tom Paine, The Nation, The Voice, even Barbara Streisand's Truth alerts when I need a laugh (it's not only her ideas, but her spelling and grammar that really entertain me; Dear Mr. Gebhard!!!) So believe me, I see these issues from many sides, just like the New York Times lady, and try to trim out the rhetoric and opinion and get to the facts. As a conservative, I even find Fox News' bias to be annoying. Where else would you find out that the Catholic Church in Africa is saying condoms don't stop STDs or pregnancy, therefore giving millions of Africans a higher risk of lingering, painful death by stopping their use? That's not something I find trumpeted in The Christian Science Monitor. But nonetheless it's true. It's not information I like, but it's information that's important. It's not at all surprising that a Nation reader would bring up a piece that associates the Catholic Church with Africa's aids epidemic as an example. You've read my name in my previous posts and if you're as educated as you say, I can guess that you assumed that I'm Roman Catholic and chose that example accordingly. Picking on the Catholic Church doesn't take any balls bro. I dare you to say something negative about African Americans or homosexuals. That would show some real character. It's not left wing paranoia that we read about, it's the very real effects of willful ignorance on the part of ANYONE that effects the world as a whole. If you say that it's the Right, then so be it. To those who have the worldview that is in the demographic of Nation subscribers, anyone who is endangering large swaths of the world politically, economically or socially is subject to scrutiny. That's all well and good as long as it's true. Oh, and I just love how the word "elite" is used to dismiss anyone who feels education on issues is an important part of being an American. If being educated is a cause for derision, what would be preferred? I use the word elite to catagorize the people who think they know what's best for us and want to impose their will upon us because that's who they are and that's what they do. You seem to imply that being educated on the issues is exclusive to liberals. If that IS what you are saying then I would call that statement bigoted. Yeah, that's right. Liberals ARE capable of being bigots. And by the way, the word elite has nothing to do with education. Check your dictionary. Brendan "Irish Catholic" Flaherty I can tell when someone's gunnin' for me |
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#97
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#98
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
"Altasrecrd" wrote in message ... Picking on the Catholic Church doesn't take any balls bro. I dare you to say something negative about African Americans or homosexuals. man, you really know how to address a point, don't you? I should elaborate; you really know how to address a question the way a Republican would. Pot, kettle, black. John |
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#99
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
"Altasrecrd" wrote in message ... "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." - Hermann Goering Not much of a fan of WWII history, are you. John |
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#101
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
(WillStG) wrote in message "..We're a private company, not a public institution like NRP.. " You might want to nose around Rupert Murdoch and his holdings, since his News International Corp. owns 80% of Fox Entertainment. I guess that's Balanced. I sense you want to get into a fight about something Tom, but I can't quite figure out about what. Do you think it's a bad thing that a News company owns an Entertainment Company, like NewsCorp and Fox, is it really better do you think that an Entertainment Company owns a News Division like say at Disney/ABC? Which arrangement do you think will end up with the investigative journalism being interfered with less? And is it a good thing to have a corporate board that can interfere with a News operation like at MSNBC, or is it better to have an individual President able to make decisions who answers only to the owner of the company like here? The latter I would submit is more in the profile of how traditionally newspapers and News organization have been run. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#102
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
"WillStG" wrote in message ... (WillStG) wrote in message "..We're a private company, not a public institution like NRP.. " You might want to nose around Rupert Murdoch and his holdings, since his News International Corp. owns 80% of Fox Entertainment. I guess that's Balanced. I sense you want to get into a fight about something Tom, but I can't quite figure out about what. Do you think it's a bad thing that a News company owns an Entertainment Company, like NewsCorp and Fox, is it really better do you think that an Entertainment Company owns a News Division like say at Disney/ABC? Matters not. I don't watch television news. Or television. It's all drivel. Glenn D. |
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#103
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#104
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
"nmm" wrote in message ... On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 2:06 PM, wrote: (WillStG) wrote in message "..We're a private company, not a public institution like NRP.. " You might want to nose around Rupert Murdoch and his holdings, since his News International Corp. owns 80% of Fox Entertainment. I guess that's Balanced. This isn't the problem .. the problem is that Reagan overturned the laws that made it manditory to present opposing viewpoints on an issue. Now we here the one sided corporate line from very one sided corporate news. The idea that it's Liberal Media Biased is a joke.. Al Jazeera might be considered Liberal biased. The American media, like their corporate masters dictate are NOT! According to Al Franken (okay, okay), newspapers enjoying 56% of the country's circulation came out in favor of GWB in the last election. He does spend a lot of time in his last book looking at the "liberal bias" of the media. Glenn D. |
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#105
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman...Hey stop it!
In Article , "John LeBlanc"
wrote: "Altasrecrd" wrote in message ... Picking on the Catholic Church doesn't take any balls bro. I dare you to say something negative about African Americans or homosexuals. man, you really know how to address a point, don't you? I should elaborate; you really know how to address a question the way a Republican would. Pot, kettle, black. John Yer makin' the group look like we're a bunch of infantile idiots. Ty Ford **Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address. Please remove it if you want to email me directly. For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews, click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford |
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#106
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
WillStG wrote:
Charles Thomas It's YOUR contention she did something wrong. I listened to the entire interview and all I heard was BOR getting really ****ed off over something that wasn't that big of a deal. I heard a bully who couldn't take it when things got much less contentious than the average "Factor" interview. No Charles, it's _National_Public_Radio's_ opinion that Terry Gross did something wrong. At this point, your argument is with no one other than NPR. The NPR Ombudsman says in his professional judgement they breached Journalistic ethics and were unfair to O'Reilly, they are judging themselves. It his gig to judge such things. NPR knows Terry Gross screwed up, it's just you who lacks the objectivity, moral clarity or education in the subject to understand why that is. Typical liberal behavior: they're concerned with fairness and prone to self-criticism. Whereas for Fox, 'fairness' is just a slogan, and self-criticism is for sissies. When's the last time Fox' ombudsman publicly chastised *its* interviewers for being less than 'fair and balanced'? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
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#107
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News: "And I said on my program, if, if the
Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and we find nothing in 6 months, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again." -- March 18, 2003. Tomorrow is the day folks.You will see if O'reilly is a man of his word. He has had thousands of people reminding him of his promise through emails to Fox news...I guess we will just see. |
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#108
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#109
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#110
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
WillStG wrote:
Steven Sullivan Typical liberal behavior: they're concerned with fairness and prone to self-criticism. Whereas for Fox, 'fairness' is just a slogan, and self-criticism is for sissies. When's the last time Fox' ombudsman publicly chastised *its* interviewers for being less than 'fair and balanced'? Steve, you are mistaken in this opinion, not that I have never been personally irritated by some of the commentary I have heard on FNC. But in the interest of helping you in your quest for media balance which you apparently have so thirsted and longed for, let me suggest you watch "Fox Newswatch" Saturdays on FNC. The moderator is on the Newscorp board, the commentators are Media Professionals and Educators from across the political spectrum, and they criticize everyone, including my employer Fox News Channel all the time. I earnestly hope that drinking from the clear waters of intellectual honesty, wherever they may be found, will help you to manage a greater respect for diversity of opinion, for those who have opinions that are not in lock step with your own politically, and that this will help you to play well with the others. To equate Fox Newswatch panelists criticizing Fox (along with other media outlets) with an the *NPR ombudsman* publicly saying that NPR did wrong is simply...... to be expected of you, I guess. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
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#111
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#112
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
Steven Sullivan
To equate Fox Newswatch panelists criticizing Fox (along with other media outlets) with an the *NPR ombudsman* publicly saying that NPR did wrong is simply...... to be expected of you, I guess. I'll overlook the intended insult for the moment Steven. But I have gone upstairs about as high as one can get and stepped in some pretty deep crap here in the past, you really have no idea how much I have personally been willing to put at risk for what I thought was right and wrong as far as FNC's coverage my friend. True, if some called that stupid I suppose I might have a hard time arguing it was not, but I have been around the block on this. So - do you really have an issue you wish addressed or are you just posing with an open mouth for the cameras? The moderator of the Fox NewsWatch Eric Burns has had issues regarding what I considered unfair journalism at FNC addressed when I referred actual injured parties to him in the past. I think he is or was on the Newcorp board (I could be wrong), but in any event he some clout if you have a real issue ( a couple Emmy's for media criticism). You can also address concerns to . And BTW, if you also wish to complain to ABC/Disney about "ABC World News Tonight" not having an ombudsman the address is . Maybe if they cut a few more techs they can hire one. If it is insufficient to you to know where best to direct complaints, or to your own need to be telling people how they should run their own private companies, please feel free to create your own International News Organization yourself and by all means spend your budget accordingly. You could be your own Rupert Murdock someday ( hey, most of his big newpapers have ombudsmen)... It's freedom baby, yeah... Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#113
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
If it is insufficient to you to know where best to direct complaints, or to
your own need to be telling people how they should run their own private companies, please feel free to create your own International News Organization yourself News? News is reported by journalists. What you got there at Fox/Murdoch, Will, is entertainment. g Scott Fraser |
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#114
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
What's the latest, Will? Did he say anything?
S O'Neill wrote in message ... Well? Charles Thomas wrote: In article , (BLCKOUT420) wrote: To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News: "And I said on my program, if, if the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and we find nothing in 6 months, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again." -- March 18, 2003. Tomorrow is the day folks.You will see if O'reilly is a man of his word. He has had thousands of people reminding him of his promise through emails to Fox news...I guess we will just see. This is me holding my breath. CT |
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#115
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
What's the latest, Will? Did he say anything? I dunno, it wasn't my turn to watch him I guess. I usually put my kid to bed at 8 O'Clock. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#116
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
(ScotFraser)
News? News is reported by journalists. What you got there at Fox/Murdoch, Will, is entertainment. g Gee thanks Scott! g But we also do have journalists in the field, news analysts, commentators, and try to involve the audience in news discussion (take calls and read the mail). The problem with anchors not sharing their personal opinions is they don't become a star that way. That, and the follow the herd mentality are a lot of what drives TV journalism IMO. Some people copy Fox News now because we kicked CNN's butt, but some day they will follow whoever else is next. Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#117
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#118
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
The problem with anchors not sharing their personal opinions is they
don't become a star that way. That, and the follow the herd mentality are a lot of what drives TV journalism IMO. Well, I think ALL TV, whether journalistic or not, is driven by ratings, & that's why TV news is doomed to never have much integrity. Some people copy Fox News now because we kicked CNN's butt, but some day they will follow whoever else is next. And that whoever else will be the one providing the most entertaining, lurid, sensationalistic version of the news, aimed at the least educated portion of the population. Scott Fraser |
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#119
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
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#120
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OT-"NPR Unfair to Oreilly"-NPR Ombudsman
Some of the best and most important reporting is about the stuff nobody
wants to hear. Or about the stuff the administration doesn't want you to hear. Scott Fraser |
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