[Tynan AgviÐr]

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

[Eeyore]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Well .... I'm a pro-audio designer with extensive knowledge of mixers and I
originally learnt on tubes.

I would first ask you why you want to use tubes since it will restrict the
possible technical performance seriously compared to modern solid-state
circuitry. I presume you like the tube colouration ?

Such a thing would be VERY expensive to custom design as a one-off though.

Who's MOSCODE btw ?

Graham

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"

Who's MOSCODE btw ?


** Read this:


http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/nyal/moscode.html




...... Phil

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"

Who's MOSCODE btw ?

** Read this:

http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/nyal/moscode.html

Thanks Phil.

Looks like it could be an interesting read.

Graham

[Tynan AgviÐr]

Eeyore wrote in
:


I would first ask you why you want to use tubes since it will restrict
the possible technical performance seriously compared to modern
solid-state circuitry. I presume you like the tube colouration ?
Sir, thank you so much for your reply. My answer is pretty simple.
I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.



Such a thing would be VERY expensive to custom design as a one-off
though.

Who's MOSCODE btw ?


Well, my life is only a one-off, so I can deal with that. I like taking
risks and never, ever forgo doing anything that i am otherwise capable of
doing..
as for who is moscode..
http://www.moscode.com/home.htm The reason I called them was because I
had heard that david Chesky uses a custom mixer from them..I also contacted
Tim Paravincini based on a reccomendation from my good friend Kavi
Alexander, but as of today at 830 am est I havent heard from him either.
(something that makes me very ****ed off is when someone simply does not
make contact to say hey, go to hell, or **** off ..but says nothing!..that
is worse than slapping me in my face..anyway..way off subject)

I also love VACRAC preamps very much..consider them to be the ultimate mic
amps. Thanks again Sir

-Tynan

[robert casey]

I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.



Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?

[Eeyore]

robert casey wrote:

I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.

Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?

Whoooossshhhhhhhh

Incidentally, surely a *good* tube buffer should be transparent so it couldn't
have any effect in that scenario ?

Graham

[robert casey]

Eeyore wrote:


robert casey wrote:


I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.

Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?


Whoooossshhhhhhhh

Incidentally, surely a *good* tube buffer should be transparent so it couldn't
have any effect in that scenario ?

Graham


Well, then there's no point in specifying the use of tubes in the first
place then. In which case, this newsgroup has no valid reason to
exist... Anyway.

[Rudy]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
: I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
: are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for
me
: a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music,
chamber
: music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
: lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
: have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
: never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
: appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
: (audiophile type label beginning late this year).
:
: Tackar så mycket,
:
: -Tynan

you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm
12-channel version £3500; 8-channel version £2579;
ADAT card £500. Prices include VAT.

Rudy

[Phil Allison]

"Rudy"

you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm



** No way is that thing a tube mixer.

It's just another desk full of cheap op-amp ICs.

The token use of half an 'X7 in each channel is a JOKE.




....... Phil

[Tynan AgviÐr]

"Phil Allison" wrote in news:5uanc6F1grs00U1
@mid.individual.net:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm


Yes Mr. Allison, there is not any shortage of pieces like that which
capitalize on the tube/vintage mania and the ignorance of the
consumer...but I want something that is well designed , good sounding, and
will last a lifetime...with no digital options anywhere on it. There are
some good pieces of equipment with ICs(DAV electronics is run by a
gentleman who is very knowledgeable, and their amps sound really nice), but
ive always wanted a nice custom built mixer without any of that extra
stuff..

Tynan

[Tynan AgviÐr]

"Rudy" wrote in
:





you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:



6 in, 2 out. Mic Level. Pan. Gain. faders on 2 buss. Headphone amp with
volume control seperate from main faders. XLR ins. XLR outs. no EQ or
high/low cut or any of that stuff. oh yes..phantom power on/off toggle.

[Rudy]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
: "Rudy" wrote in
: :
:
:
:
:
:
: you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
: here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:
:
:
:
: 6 in, 2 out. Mic Level. Pan. Gain. faders on 2 buss. Headphone amp with
: volume control seperate from main faders. XLR ins. XLR outs. no EQ or
: high/low cut or any of that stuff. oh yes..phantom power on/off toggle.
:
ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2 buss
wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no overload
indicator;

two bus summation circuits and master level output faders,
a ?tube powered? headphone stereo amp with separate level pot

something like this ?

Rudy

[Eeyore]

Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2 buss
wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no overload
indicator;

two bus summation circuits and master level output faders,
a ?tube powered? headphone stereo amp with separate level pot

something like this ?

An 'overload' indicator would be trivial to add. Since it's not in the signal
path it could be solid state (nice and simple) and still fit the
requirements.

How about metering ?

Graham

[Tynan AgviÐr]

Eeyore wrote in
:



Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you
right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2
buss wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no
overload indicator; How about metering ?

Graham



Yes Sir(s) exactly. Nice input transformers ( I Like the Lundahl LL7903,
which has an amorphous core and is capable of +16 dBU input..perfect
combination for me of a clean but euphonic sound)..yes, that is exactly
right above! Metering..nice analog meters, nothing complicated..for me I
like everything I use to go by the KISS principle(which I learned in my
previous life in Military Special Operations..Keep it simple, stupid!)

you gentlemen summed up what I was thinking perfectly! so who can tackle
this for me?? I will be very grateful. I know it wont be very cheap, but
ive found that in audio, good things arent normally cheap.

[Ian Iveson]

Tynan AgviÐr wrote

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with
some persons who are working with tube audio
equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all
acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir,
acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something
very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do
it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I
would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings
of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

If you like the sound of old mixers, then I suggest you
acquire an old mixer.

You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't need
a designer.

But perhaps there are some aspects of old mixers that you
don't like? Then you need someone who knows the difference
between baby and bathwater.

OTOH, if you want something "very special", then perhaps you
need a guru?

Where are you?

How much money would be just too much for something very
special?

Ian

[Eeyore]

Ian Iveson wrote:

Tynan AgviÐr wrote

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with
some persons who are working with tube audio
equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all
acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir,
acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something
very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do
it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I
would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings
of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

If you like the sound of old mixers, then I suggest you
acquire an old mixer.

A mixer of the vintage he's interested in will now be
ultra-exceptionally rare (they were exceptionally rare to begin with !)
and likely already in the hands of a well-heeled rock star or the like.
Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed and one
germanium transistor) in such ownership.


You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't need
a designer.

The designer would be able to adapt that circuit to use modern (and
reliable) constructional techniques, without which the project might
never get off the ground.

Graham

[Ian Iveson]

Eeyore wrote

You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which
case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you
like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't
need
a designer.

The designer would be able to adapt that circuit to use
modern (and
reliable) constructional techniques, without which the
project might
never get off the ground.

Well that depends on what is meant by "design".

If an engineer were to take an old design and adapt it,
using modern passives and peripheral circuits, and build it
to current state-of-the-art spec., would that be design?

Anyway, what I was trying to do was draw attention to the
difference between the engineering task, and the voicing,
for want of a better word.

There aren't many people I would trust with both. Add the
need to appreciate the all-valve studio context the mixer
will find itself in, and there can't be many people in the
world who would be fully qualified for the job.

Patrick's point about the need for commissioning underlines
this issue. However, that requirement for close and
continuing relations with the customer could be obviated if
the product were a functional replica of some classic
design. That would take care of the issue of voicing in
advance.

In my own language, I would say that authenticity is the
safest route to legitimacy.

Unless, for the customer, *any* sound resulting from a valve
circuit would be equally legitimate. In that case, even you
might be able to do the job, although you would be the
second-last person in the world I would trust with such a
task.

A mixer of the vintage he's interested in will now be
ultra-exceptionally rare (they were exceptionally rare to
begin with !)
and likely already in the hands of a well-heeled rock star
or the like.
Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed
and one
germanium transistor) in such ownership.

If you can copy the circuit without messing it up, you may
have a head start. I still wouldn't trust you with it, but
don't let that dampen your ardour, or sway the customer, who
I am sure can survey your history of postings and judge for
himself.

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Ian

[John Byrns]

In article ,
"Ian Iveson" wrote:

Unless, for the customer, *any* sound resulting from a valve
circuit would be equally legitimate. In that case, even you
might be able to do the job, although you would be the
second-last person in the world I would trust with such a
task.

Who would be the last person in the world you would trust with such a
task?


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Ian Iveson]

John Byrns asked:

Who would be the last person in the world you would trust
with such a
task?

"Me", is the answer I had in mind. But really it was a
device, to avoid hurting Graham's feelings.

cheers, Ian

[Eeyore]

Ian Iveson wrote:

Eeyore wrote

Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed
and one germanium transistor) in such ownership.

If you can copy the circuit without messing it up, you may
have a head start. I still wouldn't trust you with it, but
don't let that dampen your ardour, or sway the customer, who
I am sure can survey your history of postings and judge for
himself.

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Oh right. You'd dismiss the only pro-audio design engineer posting here.

Your rampant amateurism knows no bounds.

Graham

[Ian Iveson]

Eeyore blethered:

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Oh right. You'd dismiss the only pro-audio design engineer
posting here.

Your rampant amateurism knows no bounds.

Indeed not. I'm proud to be an amateur, and happy to know no
bounds. Being rampant is icing on the cake.

Unlike your failed products, bounded firstly by failure in
the market, and then by the ruin of your employer.

You have trumpeted your ignorance here for long enough for
most to know the truth. Let's see who jumps to your defence.

Ian

[Ian Thompson-Bell]

Eeyore wrote:

Oh right. You'd dismiss the only pro-audio design engineer posting here.


And who would that be, then?

Ian

[Andre Jute]

On Jan 8, 12:38*pm, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:
Eeyore wrote

You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which
case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you
like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't
need
a designer.

The designer would be able to adapt that circuit to use
modern (and
reliable) constructional techniques, without which the
project might
never get off the ground.

Well that depends on what is meant by "design".

If an engineer were to take an old design and adapt it,
using modern passives and peripheral circuits, and build it
to current state-of-the-art spec., would that be design?

Anyway, what I was trying to do was draw attention to the
difference between the engineering task, and the voicing,
for want of a better word.

There aren't many people I would trust with both. Add the
need to appreciate the all-valve studio context the mixer
will find itself in, and there can't be many people in the
world who would be fully qualified for the job.

Patrick's point about the need for commissioning underlines
this issue. However, that requirement for close and
continuing relations with the customer could be obviated if
the product were a functional replica of some classic
design. That would take care of the issue of voicing in
advance.

In my own language, I would say that authenticity is the
safest route to legitimacy.

Unless, for the customer, *any* sound resulting from a valve
circuit would be equally legitimate. In that case, even you
might be able to do the job, although you would be the
second-last person in the world I would trust with such a
task.

A mixer of the vintage he's interested in will now be
ultra-exceptionally rare (they were exceptionally rare to
begin with !)
and likely already in the hands of a well-heeled rock star
or the like.
Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed
and one
germanium transistor) in such ownership.

If you can copy the circuit without messing it up, you may
have a head start. I still wouldn't trust you with it, but
don't let that dampen your ardour, or sway the customer, who
I am sure can survey your history of postings and judge for
himself.

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Ian

Ian has a sound point. Besides the professionals here, there are quite
a few senior hobbyists, perhaps a handful altogether, who could work
out how to design and build such thing. But, and it is a monstrously
big but, there is a difference between designing and building a
machine, and voicing that machine. Voicing is absolutely the essence
here, because if different voicing is not wanted the OP may as well
buy lowest common denominator equipment off the shelf by features and
THD spec and reputation. The OP is going about it entirely wrong in
coming on RAT with his idea; he should first have found someone
capable of designing electronic equipment with whom he is culturally
in tune, and then approached that person privately with his dream. I'm
not just talking: I built a studio amp for a rocker down the road,
paid exquisite attention to what he wanted in the voicing, left him
deliriously happy with his amp -- and I absolutely despised the
brutish sound it made in its normal mode (that experience is the
source of my reflexive sneer every time someone mentions KT88...) It
was a total waste of a lot of my time; I learned nothing I want to
know, only what I didn't want to know (1), and half of that was simply
reinforcement since I already knew I despise the sound NFB makes.
Money is small recompense for such a waste. I went back to what I have
always done, creating things that reflect my own taste, take it or
leave it.

Andre Jute
"I was at a board meeting for the LA Chapter of the Audio Engineering
Society last night on XM Satellite radio audio and data transmission.
Sadly, we missed you there, and at the SMPTE and Acoustical Society
recent meetings as well. Everyone was asking, 'Where is that wonderful
Andre Jute? The world just doesn't rotate without him...'" -- John
Mayberry, Emmaco

(1) Okay, I did get to listen to a whole wall of Marshall stacks,
which gave me a nostalgic twinge for my party setup back in my
twenties, when a small party was only my 400 closest friends, when I
drove a wall of speakers we kept beside the pool for touring rock acts
with several hi-watt amps a couple of mates at HP designed and built
for me; the police received calls from as far away as three miles.

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

"Ian Iveson" wrote:

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Ian

Ian has a sound point.

Ian is a blithering idiot who is incapable of being right about anything
of importance. He has a cabbage for a brain.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

Voicing is absolutely the essence here

I imagine the OP wants 'triode' voicing actually. That's the classic tube
sound when used in preamp circuitry.

However pentodes have also been widely used in high sensitivity mic
preamps so it might be a good idea to ascertain which characteristic is
desired.

Graham

[Patrick Turner]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no wonder
ppl
might end up not answering your emails.

Patrick Turner.

[Tynan AgviÐr]

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label (audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.

As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.


Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?
So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..I dont need to sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for ****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life. I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story. It is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.

[Patrick Turner]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label (audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.

As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??

Just testing.

You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?

Getting laid is terribly expensive these days,
I'm extremely choosy about who I root, and I don't do drugs.

But designing something you can build and presenting it in a nice
schematic form
takes considerable work, and you hadn't offered any payment just a cd
"sweetener",
which is fine, but you won't get too much help from a busy expert unless
you
offer more.

As a busy expert, I get fed up with people wanting some contraption
design or constructed
and they are willing to pay peanuts only.

I share nearly all my wisdom as I proceed with custom projects such as
the 845 amps
for which I am paid. This sharing is fine for me . But if you want
something
I am not making, or have never made, then I want to get paid somehow.






So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..

I built a website with totally free info. But people don't copy
what I do because its all too difficult to achieve. Commercial people
ripping off things from my website invariably dumb down the ideas.

I am not a well known designer like Peter Walker was, or Tim
DeParavicini, Andy Grove or many others who
have established themselves over 20 years prior to the Net in magazines
like Sterophile
after their efforts in well funded and successful audio manufacturing
business ventures
requiring heavy capital investments.

I do not give a **** what ppl do with ideas stolen from me.
They ain't stolen. I have given it free.

He he, what they do with the secret info is their business.



I dont need to sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for ****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life. I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story.

!!!

It is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.

All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.

[Tynan AgviÐr]

All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.

Ok, sure I expect that most people require a fee..but I generally dont
talk about money on public newsgroups. That is pretty tacky in my
opinion. On top of that..I dont know what a project like that would go
for because nothing like that exists! Ive seen a lot of talk about money,
but normally when I get audio work done(I get a lot of microphone
modifications, for example), I tell the two techs that I deal with mainly
what I am looking for, they do research, give me cost scenarios, and
that's that. Why would I come on here, like an idiot, say "hey, I am a
dumbass numbnuts who doesnt know anything about nothing", "ive got XXXX.
dollars here, and I want someone to build me a mixer." "Who can do it?",
...Nothing about that seems smart. Ive never done business that way, and
dont intend on ever doing it that way. I had hoped someone would contact
me(and they have) , do a little brain storming with those expert brains
of theirs, get back to me with a figure and some scenario of what they
could do, yadda yadda. And lets work it out.. as for the things you
said.. *ive* never known any expert do do business in that manner. I
dont want to approach this like an auction or a contract to build a
prison. I want someone to talk to me one on one and work with me. Ive had
4 guys offer very helpful information(helping me narrow down what I want,
and believe me I appreciate it very very much), but outside of those guys
(thanks be to them again), i hear a lot of talk about money, but no talk
about what someone could offer. do people really think that way?? "Give
me money and we can talk!"..if so that is bull****!..Hell, how do I know
you aren't some Schizo in Dorothea Dix or Joe Blow from
piscopo..hell...or that you know your 3rd point of contact from a hole in
the ground?
Obviously you cant help, Mr. Turner.. thats cool..but I did want to
answer your questions.


As for manley..Well, I dont need anything as large as what they offer,
and they dont do anything smaller...they are pretty much on the verge of
"mass production" , and I want something that is mine(and the builders)
alone.

Ill keep hoping, maybe theyll come along.

[Ian Iveson]

Perhaps you missed the word "recreational" in the newsgroup
title?

Don't let me put you off, but I find your whole approach
tacky and foolish.

What have you contributed here, parasite?

Top posted in utter disdain.

Ian

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort
of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase
off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.

Ok, sure I expect that most people require a fee..but I
generally dont
talk about money on public newsgroups. That is pretty
tacky in my
opinion. On top of that..I dont know what a project like
that would go
for because nothing like that exists! Ive seen a lot of
talk about money,
but normally when I get audio work done(I get a lot of
microphone
modifications, for example), I tell the two techs that I
deal with mainly
what I am looking for, they do research, give me cost
scenarios, and
that's that. Why would I come on here, like an idiot, say
"hey, I am a
dumbass numbnuts who doesnt know anything about nothing",
"ive got XXXX.
dollars here, and I want someone to build me a mixer."
"Who can do it?",
..Nothing about that seems smart. Ive never done business
that way, and
dont intend on ever doing it that way. I had hoped someone
would contact
me(and they have) , do a little brain storming with those
expert brains
of theirs, get back to me with a figure and some scenario
of what they
could do, yadda yadda. And lets work it out.. as for the
things you
said.. *ive* never known any expert do do business in
that manner. I
dont want to approach this like an auction or a contract
to build a
prison. I want someone to talk to me one on one and work
with me. Ive had
4 guys offer very helpful information(helping me narrow
down what I want,
and believe me I appreciate it very very much), but
outside of those guys
(thanks be to them again), i hear a lot of talk about
money, but no talk
about what someone could offer. do people really think
that way?? "Give
me money and we can talk!"..if so that is bull****!..Hell,
how do I know
you aren't some Schizo in Dorothea Dix or Joe Blow from
piscopo..hell...or that you know your 3rd point of contact
from a hole in
the ground?
Obviously you cant help, Mr. Turner.. thats cool..but I
did want to
answer your questions.


As for manley..Well, I dont need anything as large as what
they offer,
and they dont do anything smaller...they are pretty much
on the verge of
"mass production" , and I want something that is mine(and
the builders)
alone.

Ill keep hoping, maybe theyll come along.

[Patrick Turner]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.

Ok, sure I expect that most people require a fee..but I generally dont
talk about money on public newsgroups. That is pretty tacky in my
opinion.

You are quite entitled to your opinion.

And I will die 1,000 death's defending your right to free speach,
but if I disagree with you its not a big deal, eh?

My parents tried to tell me I mustn't discuss Sex, Politics, Religion at
the dinner table.

But they are my favourite subjects, and I get bored with small talk,
or the prices of houses and groceries.

So money talk here in this "Anything Goaz" Internet isn't out of place
imho....


On top of that..I dont know what a project like that would go
for because nothing like that exists!

Something like what you want is much more complex than a normal preamp,
and its a one-off, so expect the price to be several times whatever
range of
preamp prices you see, so maybe between $1,000 and $5,000.




Ive seen a lot of talk about money,
but normally when I get audio work done(I get a lot of microphone
modifications, for example), I tell the two techs that I deal with mainly
what I am looking for, they do research, give me cost scenarios, and
that's that. Why would I come on here, like an idiot, say "hey, I am a
dumbass numbnuts who doesnt know anything about nothing", "ive got XXXX.
dollars here, and I want someone to build me a mixer." "Who can do it?",
..Nothing about that seems smart.

But what if you end up having a lot of us argue about the best way to do
it
for a month and you have only $500 to spend?

What's in it for any of us?

Ive never done business that way, and
dont intend on ever doing it that way.

I think everyone here would realise that you would negotiate privately
about the actual agreed sum if you wanted to.

I had hoped someone would contact
me(and they have) , do a little brain storming with those expert brains
of theirs, get back to me with a figure and some scenario of what they
could do, yadda yadda. And lets work it out.. as for the things you
said.. *ive* never known any expert do do business in that manner.

To prepare a prospective schematic neatly drawn up in MS paint is a full
day or two's work,
but I ain't got time now.

Maybe someone else has the time and will go all public about the design
to give the
whole world something, not just have you being the sole beneficiary of
the work.

You may not actually end up buying anything. Many people are saying thay
want this or that
and want to pay for it but after lots of discussion they get nothin.
Shop assistants call them tyre kickers.


dont want to approach this like an auction or a contract to build a
prison. I want someone to talk to me one on one and work with me. Ive had
4 guys offer very helpful information(helping me narrow down what I want,
and believe me I appreciate it very very much), but outside of those guys
(thanks be to them again), i hear a lot of talk about money, but no talk
about what someone could offer. do people really think that way?? "Give
me money and we can talk!"..if so that is bull****!..Hell, how do I know
you aren't some Schizo in Dorothea Dix or Joe Blow from
piscopo..hell...or that you know your 3rd point of contact from a hole in
the ground?
Obviously you cant help, Mr. Turner.. thats cool..but I did want to
answer your questions.

As for manley..Well, I dont need anything as large as what they offer,
and they dont do anything smaller...they are pretty much on the verge of
"mass production" , and I want something that is mine(and the builders)
alone.

Yup, you get printed circuit boards double sided, and often a schematic
that could have been better
but its in a nice box and will tend to keep its value awhile....

The custom job won't have a printed circuit board.

It will be all point to point wiring, proper chassis,
and built up to a standard, not down to a price....
Such things are never cheap.

Ill keep hoping, maybe theyll come along.


Well let's see if you get your design fully fleshed out for nothing.

Men are men and likely to argue endlessly so long about how to do it
right....

And we don't have the ability to post schematics right here and the
groups which do allow
schematics posted are not accessable by everyone.

Meanwhile I have real work to perform or I starve.

Patrick Turner.

[Ian Iveson]

Oi!

Patrick has made a legitimate point, even though he don't
read too good.

Don't be swayed by charm. It is possible that an offensive
and socially inept lout could be the best man for the job,
although possibly not this particular one.

Top-posting in outrage.

Ian

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
.70...
Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check
with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making
it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based
mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass,
celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass
produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken
to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never
answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd
doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.

As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I
will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a
CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I
was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped
point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.


Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very
complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and
whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all
floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be
optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype,
and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying
them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe
its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are
completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the
right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a
mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it
elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic
antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?
So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL
guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ
mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from
Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording
business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps
garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I
dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read
this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from
Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I
think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your
wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision
and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..I dont need to
sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for
****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life.
I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to
pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story. It
is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please
shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout
vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really
appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.

[Tynan AgviÐr]

" Don't be swayed by charm. It is possible that an offensive
and socially inept lout could be the best man for the job,
although possibly not this particular one.



I dont think they are charming(yet). They simply gave me and my question
respect and were helpful. They did not clutter up the thread with negative
nonsense. These days, if someone is simply respectful, hell , that is
enough to make them stand out..a lot of folks dont have a "catch stupid,
disrespectful, and unnecessary statments" filters between their brains and
their mouths/fingers. I admire the ones who do.

Well, the ability to show respect and not act like an ass counts for a lot
with me. If my dumb carcass (I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks
surrounded by white trash and oxygen thieves) can learn to be civil long
enough to get through the army infantry school, sfas, and ranger school,
and manage to keep my ass glued on long enough to get through Iraq and an
honorable discharge..anyone can. Anyone! I always ask myself "Is what I am
saying helpful or pertinent?" "am I being respectful or not?" Basic human
respect. People that cant pull themselves together and be decent long
enough to do a business transaction dont deserve breathe..much less to make
money off others.

[Ian Iveson]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
" Don't be swayed by charm. It is possible that an
offensive
and socially inept lout could be the best man for the
job,
although possibly not this particular one.



I dont think they are charming(yet). They simply gave me
and my question
respect and were helpful. They did not clutter up the
thread with negative
nonsense. These days, if someone is simply respectful,
hell , that is
enough to make them stand out..a lot of folks dont have a
"catch stupid,
disrespectful, and unnecessary statments" filters between
their brains and
their mouths/fingers. I admire the ones who do.

Well, the ability to show respect and not act like an ass
counts for a lot
with me. If my dumb carcass (I grew up on the wrong side
of the tracks
surrounded by white trash and oxygen thieves) can learn to
be civil long
enough to get through the army infantry school, sfas, and
ranger school,
and manage to keep my ass glued on long enough to get
through Iraq and an
honorable discharge..anyone can. Anyone! I always ask
myself "Is what I am
saying helpful or pertinent?" "am I being respectful or
not?" Basic human
respect. People that cant pull themselves together and be
decent long
enough to do a business transaction dont deserve
breathe..much less to make
money off others.

Such virtue. Well done.

Ian

[John Byrns]

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.

Tubes easily did the floating balanced inputs and outputs thing by
making use of transformers. 12 band graphic equalizers are child's play
with tubes. A much more serious challenge would be to design a tube
based parametric equalizer. If anyone has a reasonable idea for how to
approach the latter please let me know as I would like to pursue it.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Patrick Turner]

John Byrns wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.

Tubes easily did the floating balanced inputs and outputs thing by
making use of transformers. 12 band graphic equalizers are child's play
with tubes. A much more serious challenge would be to design a tube
based parametric equalizer. If anyone has a reasonable idea for how to
approach the latter please let me know as I would like to pursue it.

Gee, if what you say is just so easy and simple, I'd hate to see your
idea of complexity.
But yes, floating outs and ins is very well done with transformers,
that's for sure.

But using output and input trannies IS complex compared to using none at
all.

And for each band is not one triode needed? 12 bands for each input
channels adds up
to a huge box of tubes....

I have no idea where a tubed parametric schematic can be located.

Patrick Turner.

Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[John Byrns]

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

John Byrns wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.

Tubes easily did the floating balanced inputs and outputs thing by
making use of transformers. 12 band graphic equalizers are child's play
with tubes. A much more serious challenge would be to design a tube
based parametric equalizer. If anyone has a reasonable idea for how to
approach the latter please let me know as I would like to pursue it.

Gee, if what you say is just so easy and simple, I'd hate to see your
idea of complexity.

I meant conceptually simple, that the design is straight forward, I
didn't mean that you could build a 12 band graphic equalizer using only
half a dozen parts.

But yes, floating outs and ins is very well done with transformers,
that's for sure.

But using output and input trannies IS complex compared to using none at
all.

But assuming you are buying the transformer ready made, it is no more
complex than a good solid state op amp approach as is used today, and
arguably it is less complex than today approach.

And for each band is not one triode needed? 12 bands for each input
channels adds up
to a huge box of tubes....

I haven't looked at 12 band graphic equalizer designs in many years, but
IIRC going back 35 years or so the typical 12 band graphic equalizer
used 12 gyrators and an op-amp with differential inputs. Each of the 12
gyrators used an op-amp, so yes at least 12 triodes would be required,
not including those used in the main op-amp, and several triodes might
even be required per band to get adequate performance from the gyrators.
The point is that the design is simple, straight forward, and relatively
obvious, even for those among us not well schooled in math, unlike the
design of parametric equalizers. If you don't like all the triodes,
simply replace the gyrators with 12 inductors, perhaps a more
appropriate solution for a tube design anyway.

I have no idea where a tubed parametric schematic can be located.

I doubt such a thing even exists.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Patrick Turner]

John Byrns wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

John Byrns wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.

Tubes easily did the floating balanced inputs and outputs thing by
making use of transformers. 12 band graphic equalizers are child's play
with tubes. A much more serious challenge would be to design a tube
based parametric equalizer. If anyone has a reasonable idea for how to
approach the latter please let me know as I would like to pursue it.

Gee, if what you say is just so easy and simple, I'd hate to see your
idea of complexity.

I meant conceptually simple, that the design is straight forward, I
didn't mean that you could build a 12 band graphic equalizer using only
half a dozen parts.

But yes, floating outs and ins is very well done with transformers,
that's for sure.

But using output and input trannies IS complex compared to using none at
all.

But assuming you are buying the transformer ready made, it is no more
complex than a good solid state op amp approach as is used today, and
arguably it is less complex than today approach.

But ppl who use only opamps to do evrything with line level signals will
see the use of transformers
and tubes as more complex because its more difficult to build
physically.

They are right in thier view as much as you are right about the
transformer approach being
conceptually no more circuitarilly more complex.



And for each band is not one triode needed? 12 bands for each input
channels adds up
to a huge box of tubes....

I haven't looked at 12 band graphic equalizer designs in many years, but
IIRC going back 35 years or so the typical 12 band graphic equalizer
used 12 gyrators and an op-amp with differential inputs. Each of the 12
gyrators used an op-amp, so yes at least 12 triodes would be required,
not including those used in the main op-amp, and several triodes might
even be required per band to get adequate performance from the gyrators.

A tubed graphic eq would nearly always use tuned series or parallel
resonant LC circuits for the
bands to eliminate the cost and unreliability of 12 triodes just for
gyrators.


The point is that the design is simple, straight forward, and relatively
obvious, even for those among us not well schooled in math, unlike the
design of parametric equalizers. If you don't like all the triodes,
simply replace the gyrators with 12 inductors, perhaps a more
appropriate solution for a tube design anyway.

Exactly.

But without any eq, the mixer proposed is fairly simple.

I have no idea where a tubed parametric schematic can be located.

I doubt such a thing even exists.

If its doable with opamps, its doable with tubes.

Patrick Turner.

Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[West]

"Tynan AgviÐr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for
me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music,
chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan

The sound of money seem to blind some of our best Rodents. Take $$ out of
the equation and it will be easy to see the obvious TROLL.

west