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#41
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He let me hear what he recorded and it sounded excellent (Sony CDR-W33). Although I didn't hear the soft passages, I know there was quite a bit of coughing and other sounds in the audience. I'd prefer to use cardioids facing the stage to limit audience noise. But he had those omnis pointing straight up (probably doesn't matter if they're omnis). Anybody have an opinion about cardioid vs omni in live recordings? I use both omnis or cardioids. Which I use depends upon the hall and what I am recording. Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not exactly the same as on- axis response. Most omnis ( even B&K) exhibit some high frequency directionality at certain frequencies. Perhaps he was trying to avoid that. Richard H. Kuschel "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty |
#42
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In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote: I get farther back and use my hypercardioids in a bad or noisy room. I find that omnis can't get far enough forward to avoid crowd noise. I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director was convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back (think church pews). So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage, using another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'. This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and percussion (for Carmina Burana). End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience. I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea, and something I wanted to do.) And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when extended all the way up. Doug |
#43
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In article ,
Carey Carlan wrote: I get farther back and use my hypercardioids in a bad or noisy room. I find that omnis can't get far enough forward to avoid crowd noise. I performed an experiment last night in an old chapel. The director was convinced that the mic stand had to be 15-20 tall, and 4 rows back (think church pews). So I put my Schoeps 641's 4 rows back, raised the Shure S-15 as high as it would go. For the experiment, at the front edge of the stage, using another S-15, I put my AT4053s up ~13'. This was a 100 voice choir, ~25 feet back from the front edge of the stage, on risers. Two concert grand pianos in front if them, and percussion (for Carmina Burana). End result was lots of the hall on the pulled back mount, poor clarity on the text (but I don't understand Latin anyway). The close mount was very clear, good diction, more what I was hearing when I took the headphones off. Now when the percussion was hammering away, it covered everything - both recording setups and to the listener in the audience. I really wondered about using a pair of cardiods rather than hypercardiods up high, but I didn't want to mess up what the customer wanted. (The second set, at the front edge of the stage was my idea, and something I wanted to do.) And in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when extended all the way up. Doug |
#44
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"normanstrong" wrote in message news:rQrld.333889$wV.247806@attbi_s54... "bayydogg" wrote in message om... I understand the mic should be about 10 feet up in the air. So, which mic stand is best for this situation? What to do to prevent this beast from falling down? For dead center XY, how can it be unobtrusive to the audience? Have you considered spaced PZMs? I always check ahead of time to see if a pair of PZMs on the floor can do the job. If they can, you have the ultimate in unobtrusivity. I recorded a funeral a few years back, using 3 PZMs. 2 were on the floor to pick up the organ, choir and overall ambience, and one was on the lectern to pick up the eulogies. None of the mikes were visible to the audience, and the recording was excellent. I was given the job because the church definitely didn't want visible mikes, and I could accommodate this requirement. Norm |
#45
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"normanstrong" wrote in message news:rQrld.333889$wV.247806@attbi_s54... "bayydogg" wrote in message om... I understand the mic should be about 10 feet up in the air. So, which mic stand is best for this situation? What to do to prevent this beast from falling down? For dead center XY, how can it be unobtrusive to the audience? Have you considered spaced PZMs? I always check ahead of time to see if a pair of PZMs on the floor can do the job. If they can, you have the ultimate in unobtrusivity. I recorded a funeral a few years back, using 3 PZMs. 2 were on the floor to pick up the organ, choir and overall ambience, and one was on the lectern to pick up the eulogies. None of the mikes were visible to the audience, and the recording was excellent. I was given the job because the church definitely didn't want visible mikes, and I could accommodate this requirement. Norm |
#46
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!) The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. There's also the Matthews at 25' http://www.msegrip.com/mse.php?show=product&cat=&products_ID=25029 Holds 7 lbs, weighs 37 lbs. I'll again recommend the Avenger A410B as a general purpose 13' stand http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=150&i temid=419 Holds 22 lbs., weighs under 9, has lazy leg for sloping floors & stairs.) That's a nice list, Kurt. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#47
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!) The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. There's also the Matthews at 25' http://www.msegrip.com/mse.php?show=product&cat=&products_ID=25029 Holds 7 lbs, weighs 37 lbs. I'll again recommend the Avenger A410B as a general purpose 13' stand http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=150&i temid=419 Holds 22 lbs., weighs under 9, has lazy leg for sloping floors & stairs.) That's a nice list, Kurt. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#48
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
bayydogg wrote: Anyway, I'll probably consider the lighting stand suggestion, then modify it. I've converted some cheap photo tripods into portable mic stands, so I know it's not that hard. You should not need to modify it. Just threading the top with a 5/8"-27 die is useful as long as you don't use it too much (or install one of those 2" extensions on top with Locktite.) Bogen sells an adaptor from the light stand thread to the microphone thread, for three or four bucks. I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) |
#49
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
bayydogg wrote: Anyway, I'll probably consider the lighting stand suggestion, then modify it. I've converted some cheap photo tripods into portable mic stands, so I know it's not that hard. You should not need to modify it. Just threading the top with a 5/8"-27 die is useful as long as you don't use it too much (or install one of those 2" extensions on top with Locktite.) Bogen sells an adaptor from the light stand thread to the microphone thread, for three or four bucks. I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) |
#50
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 (with that 3/8-16 to 5/8-27 adapter most mic mounts have) is pretty much it. If you have the 5/8"-27 die then one can cut 5/8"-27 onto a 3106. I've got three that were modified this way. They aren't up to as much abuse as the 3102. bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#51
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 (with that 3/8-16 to 5/8-27 adapter most mic mounts have) is pretty much it. If you have the 5/8"-27 die then one can cut 5/8"-27 onto a 3106. I've got three that were modified this way. They aren't up to as much abuse as the 3102. bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#52
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Douglas Moran wrote:
in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when extended all the way up. That's what drove me to the A410B, quite solid up to its 13' limit. They can reach a tad over 20' with the extensions but things get rather wiggly up there... |
#53
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Douglas Moran wrote:
in regards to the mic stand thread - the S15 gets really flimsy when extended all the way up. That's what drove me to the A410B, quite solid up to its 13' limit. They can reach a tad over 20' with the extensions but things get rather wiggly up there... |
#54
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#56
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Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/templates/templates.php3?sectionid=148&itemid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer. Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections. |
#57
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Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/templates/templates.php3?sectionid=148&itemid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer. Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections. |
#58
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Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 Those are the ones I have now. AEA sells one for $45, probably should have asked to see it at AES. |
#59
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Bob Smith wrote:
"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... I have some of their adapters to 3/8"-16 (which I much prefer to 5/8-27.) Do they make an adapter with a 5/8 female spigot and a 5/8"-27 thread? Matthews has one but it costs something like $95 (!) The 3102 5/8" stud to 3/8"-16 Those are the ones I have now. AEA sells one for $45, probably should have asked to see it at AES. |
#60
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Carey Carlan wrote: I use the Shure S15. For unobtrusive, paint it black. Note that the original square-legged S15 has been discontinued, and has been replaced with a much flimsier tubular aluminum thing (which also weighs more to carry around). Wes Dooley is selling the original S15 stand from the same guys who OEMed it for Shure, and he has it available in black too. It's not cheap at all, though. But it's a very nice stand for a light mike pair. Is that what they call their AEA-13HDB? If so, it's an Avenger A410B. |
#61
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Carey Carlan wrote: I use the Shure S15. For unobtrusive, paint it black. Note that the original square-legged S15 has been discontinued, and has been replaced with a much flimsier tubular aluminum thing (which also weighs more to carry around). Wes Dooley is selling the original S15 stand from the same guys who OEMed it for Shure, and he has it available in black too. It's not cheap at all, though. But it's a very nice stand for a light mike pair. Is that what they call their AEA-13HDB? If so, it's an Avenger A410B. |
#62
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... Bob Smith wrote: "Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer. Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections. I'd buy a pair of five section A410B in a heart beat if they made them. bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#63
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
... Bob Smith wrote: "Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message ... The Avenger A330 is 26'4" (but not a crank-up.) http://www.bogenimaging.us/product/t...ectionid=148&i temid=417 Holds 66 lbs. (!) weighs a little over 46 lbs. I'd also add the A302 as a reasonable compromise: 19.25 ft tall, holds 88 lbs, weighs 31 lbs, has a base of 51 in (instead of 78 in for the A330) and has a minimum height of 66 in (instead of 94 in !!! for the A330, gotta have a short ladder to put the mics on this one) Good point there. 80" transport length is unmanageable for many situations. 66" is still a little longer than I'd prefer. Wish they made something like an A410B with four or five sections. I'd buy a pair of five section A410B in a heart beat if they made them. bobs Bob Smith BS Studios we organize chaos http://www.bsstudios.com |
#64
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Scott Dorsey wrote: I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar, but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is more of an issue from back there. Ditto! -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#65
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Scott Dorsey wrote: I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar, but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is more of an issue from back there. Ditto! -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#66
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Richard Kuschel wrote: Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not exactly the same as on- axis response. Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose cones. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#67
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Richard Kuschel wrote: Omnis pointing straight up is moderately weird as the off axis response is not exactly the same as on- axis response. Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose cones. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#68
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And where have you been, sir? I don't believe I've seen any posts from you
for at least a year. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Len Moskowitz" wrote in message ... Scott Dorsey wrote: I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar, but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is more of an issue from back there. Ditto! -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#69
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And where have you been, sir? I don't believe I've seen any posts from you
for at least a year. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Len Moskowitz" wrote in message ... Scott Dorsey wrote: I think you get less audience noise with the omnis, because they can be mounted so much closer to the orchestra. I tend to prefer baffled omnis and don't like the weird imaging of narrowly-spaced omnis on a bar, but that's a personal thing. With cardioids, you need to pull way back in the room. They can be a huge help in a lousy-sounding room, and God knows we all wind up with those now and then, but the audience noise is more of an issue from back there. Ditto! -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#70
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yup, they were nose cones. kind of looked like earthworks.
Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose cones. |
#71
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yup, they were nose cones. kind of looked like earthworks.
Pointing up is exactly correct if he was using the B&Ks with their nose cones. |
#72
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Kurt Albershardt wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: I like the Avenger crank-ups, which are also sold by Bogen. Do you have a model number? The only tall crank-ups I can find are things like the B150 (20' lift, holds 154 lbs. but weighs 156 lbs!) No, I don't. Mine seems to be a "Trapeze" model from what I can see of the somewhat beat-up lettering on the leg. It's probably around fifty pounds and very stable. I got it in the early 1980s from KEH Camera in Atlanta back when they still had a walk-in store, and it originally was sold the first time by Calumet. I will check the Bogen catalogue and see if there is anything comparable, although I do know that Calumet imports a somewhat different selection of the Avenger and Manfrotto stuff than Bogen does and they have different names for them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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