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#41
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#42
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#43
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
Problem I see is that you then become the engineer and producer with no effective producer in the session. Crazy way to run a train IMHO. == Later... Ron Capik -- So this is a good discussion... I'm a hobby level recording person, an EE by profession.... so I come to RAP to learn not so muchabout the technology, but about the logistics of recording, relations with the talent etc. (not that kind of relations :-) ) Here is my question.. When a group wants to record for the first time, the biggest question in my mind is always... Should they perform all together like they are accustomed to, or should we record them in isolation one by one or in separate iso areas. I see this as a tradeoff between making it easy for the talent vs making it easy for the engineer. My actual question, is DO YOU EVEN ASK THE TALENT ABOUT THIS.... or do you size them up and make the decision yourself. I can see that if you burden the talent with making this decision, they are already put off. Is this something the engineer, producer should desicde without consulting the talent? So the 3 options a 1) Don' ask them, just tell them they can play together just like they are used to (and I'll deal with mic placement etc to get isolation I need) 2) Don't ask them, just tell them they are in a studio environment and need to play apart 3) Discuss the question with the group. Which may put unwanted burden on them. thanks Mark |
#44
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/17/2015 8:36 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
Just finished a bluegrass album that was done exactly that way. Good players, good voices; they were thrilled because for the /first time/ they all felt that "the studio" wasn't herding them in a direction that might not be the best for their way of performing. Great energy and tones; wonderful synergy from them as a band because no part of what they were doing was being siphoned off by something artificial or contrived. The contrived or artificial parts are brought on by the artists' desires to make what they think is a great record. When I'm recording an acoustic band that plays together, I remind them that we won't be able to fix things because of leakage. That's a problem that isn't going to go away unless we put the band in an artificial situation. I tell them that we can do a few takes and hopefully edit them to take care of things that they want fixed, but I don't make them play to a click just so the pieces fit together. Probably the biggest benefit I get from the "new recording" technology is that I don't have to say "wait a minute while I change reels" when they want to do a second take. But I don't think I've ever had anyone thrown off or ****ed off by that, they don't mind a little break, even to rewind to the beginning of the take. I wonder how many artists thrive on "let's do another one right now" as soon as the last note had died out. Some do, some don't, and some just want to play. I don't work with top flight artists, but I don't work with unprepared artists or people who want to create something in the studio that they can't do in real life. That's what home studios are for. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#45
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#46
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
JackA writes:
-snips- Frank, no disrespect, but you write too much!!! :-) Sorry, I don't think in 140 character snippets. Keep it short and sweet. You make me feel guilty not covering everything yo= u write!! Uh, that's your issue, I'm afraid. Read or don't read as you wish. Now, I need your honest opinion. Do YOU see/hear the electric guitar dying = in Popular music? I do, but I need confirmation others hear it, too. Pop music is not my field. Don't know. Listen to Rap music, no musical talent needed. It seemed only to become "po= pular" as part of a plan to decay the USA. I can actually buy into that at some levels. Me, if I recorded some group, NO OVERDUBBING WOULD BE ALLOWED. If you lack = talent and need to overdub, hire more musicians for the group, or go elsewh= ere. The one group I admire is The Knack - little, if any, overdubbing. The= y (founder)wanted to sound as good live as in the studio. Really depends. Some overdubbing is silly, some is sweet, some is the realization of a remarkable vision by the artist. In the end, the question is whether it has musical merit or not. And the only way to really judge that is whether it will be played or sought after 3-500 years from now. Frank -- |
#47
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 12:47:14 PM UTC-5, Frank Stearns wrote:
JackA writes: -snips- Frank, no disrespect, but you write too much!!! :-) Sorry, I don't think in 140 character snippets. Keep it short and sweet. You make me feel guilty not covering everything yo= u write!! Uh, that's your issue, I'm afraid. Read or don't read as you wish. Now, I need your honest opinion. Do YOU see/hear the electric guitar dying = in Popular music? I do, but I need confirmation others hear it, too. Pop music is not my field. Don't know. Listen to Rap music, no musical talent needed. It seemed only to become "po= pular" as part of a plan to decay the USA. I can actually buy into that at some levels. Me, if I recorded some group, NO OVERDUBBING WOULD BE ALLOWED. If you lack = talent and need to overdub, hire more musicians for the group, or go elsewh= ere. The one group I admire is The Knack - little, if any, overdubbing. The= y (founder)wanted to sound as good live as in the studio. Really depends. Some overdubbing is silly, some is sweet, some is the realization of a remarkable vision by the artist. In the end, the question is whether it has musical merit or not. And the only way to really judge that is whether it will be played or sought after 3-500 years from now. Friend sent me a hit UK/US song from 1959, amazed it was stereo recorded in the UK. Sure, man could create fine stereo, but overdubbing, like many Beatles songs, caused them to become lopsided stereo. Needed greater talent or a real audio engineer who would warn the "boys" top dog, G. Martin, that he was making a mistake. But, really, I read stories about Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys only having one ear hearing; why a lot of BB tunes surfaced in mono; he "mixed" them. Really? But, more recently, you read about Brian heading over to Australia, since someone digitized a BB tune in Stereo, only available on tape in mono. What, did Brian all the sudden regain hearing in both ears? Rap? I really don't have a problems with it, with lyrics that are decent. Ran across a song, I think they used Blue Note Records intro. An enjoyably song about the '90's. Pop music, I make it my field of interest. Jack Frank -- . |
#48
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 1:03:23 PM UTC-5, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:52:44 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 8:36:18 PM UTC-5, Frank Stearns wrote: JackA writes: On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 6:52:56 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote: Frank Stearns wrote: "Uhhhh, 'scuse me, Mr or Ms Talent... I have to break your creative flow now and **** you off, because I have to stop the sesion and allocate another hour of session space on my crummy software, even though I had an hour assigned because you originally told me it was one five minute song..." (Yes, in the old days you were changing 2" reels every 16 minutes but those days are gone. People *expect* to now be able to stay in the flow.) I care less what People today expect, they are stupid, not I. So little talent left in the music world, it's growing pathetic. Too bad you haven't experienced working with top-flight people. I'm just thrilled that the technology now enables me to support them -- nearly completely -- without derailing what they're doing (assuming I've done the other details of my job properly). That's something I saw a lot of as a young engineer: primitive technology frequently stepping directly into the artist's path, along with plain old engineering incompetence. Those weren't my sessions, I was just the gopher, but I learned a ton about the importance of pre-production and planning (and avoiding session bottlenecks), something many folks still don't do as thoroughly as they should. Every gig I do is carefully thought through, every detail planned. But all of that is mostly hidden from the talent, so that they can feel "casual" but still get right down to business. Oh, and good pre-planning can actually leave you adequate wiggle room for the unexpected. It seems to be a win-win approach. Just finished a bluegrass album that was done exactly that way. Good players, good voices; they were thrilled because for the /first time/ they all felt that "the studio" wasn't herding them in a direction that might not be the best for their way of performing. Great energy and tones; wonderful synergy from them as a band because no part of what they were doing was being siphoned off by something artificial or contrived. Well, truth be told, studio recording is mostly artificial and contrived -- the trick is to have a good performance blossom on top of all that. Frank Mobile Audio -- . Frank, no disrespect, but you write too much!!! :-) Keep it short and sweet. You make me feel guilty not covering everything you write!! Now, I need your honest opinion. Do YOU see/hear the electric guitar dying in Popular music? I do, but I need confirmation others hear it, too. Listen to Rap music, no musical talent needed. It seemed only to become "popular" as part of a plan to decay the USA. Me, if I recorded some group, NO OVERDUBBING WOULD BE ALLOWED. If you lack talent and need to overdub, hire more musicians for the group, or go elsewhere. The one group I admire is The Knack - little, if any, overdubbing. They (founder)wanted to sound as good live as in the studio. Just posted A Little Bit O' Soul (The Music Explosion). Darn fine drummer, but was that really some studio musician? Why I'm confused who to credit, since music is faked. I grew to tolerate overdubbing, still REAL people playing instruments. When did I first realize overdubbing? Back in the 80's, playing my drums to records and radio, figured I needs more than two hands to replicate the drumming!! Jack No overdubbing? Bye bye Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. They are clearly rubbish. There is no problem with overdubbing, it keeps the artistic input consistent and saves splitting up the cash too many ways - important for a band. As for live performances - do something different, but equally good. The fans haven't turned up to hear the record playing anyway (OK, that's exactly what they have turned up for with the more youthful of today's cohort). Overdubbing? Save it for the non professionals. It seems like a plague in Pop music. Don't feel it's wanted in Jazz, Classical and other forms of music. If you need to overdub and lie to your fans, good luck. It's like do whatever necessary to achieve a hit. Poor musicians? Hire some to actually record for more impressive sound, but credit group members. Live recordings? There's still some decent audio people out there, like the rerecord of Eric Clapton's "Layla". Not bad!! Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#49
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:00:13 -0800 (PST), JackA
wrote: No overdubbing? Bye bye Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. They are clearly rubbish. There is no problem with overdubbing, it keeps the artistic input consistent and saves splitting up the cash too many ways - important for a band. As for live performances - do something different, but equally good. The fans haven't turned up to hear the record playing anyway (OK, that's exactly what they have turned up for with the more youthful of today's cohort). Overdubbing? Save it for the non professionals. It seems like a plague in Pop music. Don't feel it's wanted in Jazz, Classical and other forms of music. If you need to overdub and lie to your fans, good luck. It's like do whatever necessary to achieve a hit. Poor musicians? Hire some to actually record for more impressive sound, but credit group members. Live recordings? There's still some decent audio people out there, like the rerecord of Eric Clapton's "Layla". Not bad!! Jack It's not lying. It's another way of making music. Do you object to a painter who paints the red as well as the blue? He should get another painter to do the red, surely. Any painting is a series of overlays done by one, or a few painter(s) at different times. That doesn't invalidate it as a work of art. Every recording is not a "record of a performance". Some of them are carefully crafted constructions. Maybe as such they will only exist in recorded format. That's fine. There is no law that says they must be performable live. Some are, of course - Brian May says that Bohemian Rhapsody was one of Queen's easier pieces to perform live. For you, of course, it isn't even music. You appear to have a very narrow view of what constitutes music. One must pity you and such limitations. d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#50
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#51
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 19/11/2015 10:49 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
. This is true. And it's not unreasonable to call the construction "music." However, given enough skilled players and singers, such construction could be performed live. That it's not convenient to do that, or it's not in the artist's vision (he has to show us that he can sing, play piano, bass, drums, and all the other instruments from accordion to zither), then there is a modern recording technique to allow him to create his work of art. Phew - was a bit worried that you were starting to get a bit jackish there for a minute Mike ;-) geoff |
#52
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
JackA wrote:
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 12:47:14 PM UTC-5, Frank Stearns wrote: JackA writes: -snips- Frank, no disrespect, but you write too much!!! :-) Sorry, I don't think in 140 character snippets. Keep it short and sweet. You make me feel guilty not covering everything yo= u write!! Uh, that's your issue, I'm afraid. Read or don't read as you wish. Now, I need your honest opinion. Do YOU see/hear the electric guitar dying = in Popular music? I do, but I need confirmation others hear it, too. Pop music is not my field. Don't know. Listen to Rap music, no musical talent needed. It seemed only to become "po= pular" as part of a plan to decay the USA. I can actually buy into that at some levels. Me, if I recorded some group, NO OVERDUBBING WOULD BE ALLOWED. If you lack = talent and need to overdub, hire more musicians for the group, or go elsewh= ere. The one group I admire is The Knack - little, if any, overdubbing. The= y (founder)wanted to sound as good live as in the studio. Really depends. Some overdubbing is silly, some is sweet, some is the realization of a remarkable vision by the artist. In the end, the question is whether it has musical merit or not. And the only way to really judge that is whether it will be played or sought after 3-500 years from now. Friend sent me a hit UK/US song from 1959, amazed it was stereo recorded in the UK. Sure, man could create fine stereo, but overdubbing, like many Beatles songs, caused them to become lopsided stereo. Needed greater talent or a real audio engineer who would warn the "boys" top dog, G. Martin, that he was making a mistake. But, really, I read stories about Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys only having one ear hearing; why a lot of BB tunes surfaced in mono; he "mixed" them. Really? But, more recently, you read about Brian heading over to Australia, since someone digitized a BB tune in Stereo, only available on tape in mono. What, did Brian all the sudden regain hearing in both ears? Rap? I really don't have a problems with it, with lyrics that are decent. Ran across a song, I think they used Blue Note Records intro. An enjoyably song about the '90's. Pop music, I make it my field of interest. Jack Frank -- . Funny you should mention Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys. I understand that Brian Wilsons father/manager was a real pain in the ass when they were in the recording studio. He would constantly complain to the engineers that they didn't know what they were doing and would fiddle with the controls on the recording console. To shut him up and keep him out of the way they wired in a console all for himself. He could fiddle with the controls to his hearts content, of course the console was not in the recording chain, none of his 'improvements' made it to the recording. Sounds like someone familiar, huh? I also understand that not only was he jerk in the recording studio, he completely screwed over the boys by selling the rights to their songs to a record company. Of course, keeping the profits for himself. Apparently a complete asshole of a human being. On a side note, Brian Wilson did have hearing damage in one ear. Didn't affect his musical genius though, and their recordings were amazing anyway. I have "Endless Summer', recorded in stereo, and it certainly sounds great to my ears, though it doesn't have the 'ping-pong' stereo you seem to like. S. |
#53
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:52:44 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 8:36:18 PM UTC-5, Frank Stearns wrote: JackA writes: On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 6:52:56 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote: Frank Stearns wrote: "Uhhhh, 'scuse me, Mr or Ms Talent... I have to break your creative flow now and **** you off, because I have to stop the sesion and allocate another hour of session space on my crummy software, even though I had an hour assigned because you originally told me it was one five minute song..." (Yes, in the old days you were changing 2" reels every 16 minutes but those days are gone. People *expect* to now be able to stay in the flow.) I care less what People today expect, they are stupid, not I. So little talent left in the music world, it's growing pathetic. Too bad you haven't experienced working with top-flight people. I'm just thrilled that the technology now enables me to support them -- nearly completely -- without derailing what they're doing (assuming I've done the other details of my job properly). That's something I saw a lot of as a young engineer: primitive technology frequently stepping directly into the artist's path, along with plain old engineering incompetence. Those weren't my sessions, I was just the gopher, but I learned a ton about the importance of pre-production and planning (and avoiding session bottlenecks), something many folks still don't do as thoroughly as they should. Every gig I do is carefully thought through, every detail planned. But all of that is mostly hidden from the talent, so that they can feel "casual" but still get right down to business. Oh, and good pre-planning can actually leave you adequate wiggle room for the unexpected. It seems to be a win-win approach. Just finished a bluegrass album that was done exactly that way. Good players, good voices; they were thrilled because for the /first time/ they all felt that "the studio" wasn't herding them in a direction that might not be the best for their way of performing. Great energy and tones; wonderful synergy from them as a band because no part of what they were doing was being siphoned off by something artificial or contrived. Well, truth be told, studio recording is mostly artificial and contrived -- the trick is to have a good performance blossom on top of all that. Frank Mobile Audio -- . Frank, no disrespect, but you write too much!!! :-) Keep it short and sweet. You make me feel guilty not covering everything you write!! Now, I need your honest opinion. Do YOU see/hear the electric guitar dying in Popular music? I do, but I need confirmation others hear it, too. Listen to Rap music, no musical talent needed. It seemed only to become "popular" as part of a plan to decay the USA. Me, if I recorded some group, NO OVERDUBBING WOULD BE ALLOWED. If you lack talent and need to overdub, hire more musicians for the group, or go elsewhere. The one group I admire is The Knack - little, if any, overdubbing. They (founder)wanted to sound as good live as in the studio. Just posted A Little Bit O' Soul (The Music Explosion). Darn fine drummer, but was that really some studio musician? Why I'm confused who to credit, since music is faked. I grew to tolerate overdubbing, still REAL people playing instruments. When did I first realize overdubbing? Back in the 80's, playing my drums to records and radio, figured I needs more than two hands to replicate the drumming!! Jack No overdubbing? Bye bye Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. They are clearly rubbish. There is no problem with overdubbing, it keeps the artistic input consistent and saves splitting up the cash too many ways - important for a band. As for live performances - do something different, but equally good. Or, as they do these days, hire ringers to fill things in. It's nearly standard practice. The fans haven't turned up to hear the record playing anyway (OK, that's exactly what they have turned up for with the more youthful of today's cohort). That's what we ( including non-musicians ) *USED* to turn up for, but then they all more or less achieved that. They weren't the very first , but Kansas was one of the first bands that could do it all live. It's hard to believe but for a long time, being able to play your own record was unusual if it happened at all. In pop music, musicianship has come a long way since I was even in high school ( late '70s ). d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- Les Cargill |
#54
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
Don Pearce wrote:
No overdubbing? Bye bye Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. They are clearly rubbish. There is no problem with overdubbing, it keeps the artistic input consistent and saves splitting up the cash too many ways - important for a band. As for live performances - do something different, but equally good. The fans haven't turned up to hear the record playing anyway (OK, that's exactly what they have turned up for with the more youthful of today's cohort). Well, the thing is that when you have a loud band with a backline, there is no way to get clean vocals without overdubbing. Because the rock band can only be balanced with electronic aid, you're limited in your ability to get a clean vocal without a lot of leakage. There are tricks you can use to get a little more isolation, but forget having anyone playing drums and singing at the same time. It's not going to work out. I'm not sure Mr. Agnew even knows what overdubbing is. It's clear he doesn't have any understanding of leakage or cancellation and is reluctant to attempts to explain it to him. I think he just knows that he'll get a reaction by saying a particular thing so he does; his only goal is to get a reaction and he doesn't actually have anything to say himself. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#55
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/18/2015 5:11 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
You can do most things given enough players and singers, but do you have the time and opportunity to rehearse them, and can you afford to pay them? I don't think that time and money is the only reason for recording piecemeal. It's more a matter of convenience and a more efficient way of achieving a higher level of perfection. There's ego involved, too. If you can get Stevie Wonder to play on your recording by sending him a file and having him send you back a part, that might be good for sales, though it doesn't necessarily make the recording better. I mean it is not necessary to reproduce the record live. If you are going to do that, you may as well get a DJ instead. A good DJ can be more entertaining than a famous artist with a small band playing to recorded tracks. I don't recall whose show it was, but I recently read an article in which the house engineer said that he uses time code to automate much of the console during the show. That's practically playing the record for the audience. If you're talking about major artists, what the audience wants to hear IS the record. Maybe not all the songs on it in the order that they're on the album, maybe a new song, maybe a few old songs, but for most artists, they expect to hear what they know. There are, of course, artists who are known for never performing a song the same twice, and their audiences expect that. The live version of a multi-tracked song can be something different - pared back. Layla was mentioned and it is a good case in point. The original with Delaney and Bonnie was a huge production number, but Clapton regularly does his acoustic version with a totally different swing rhythm. It is still recognizably the same song, and for the most part equally well received. I like the original version. The acoustic version does nothing for me. I think the reason that it's well received is that it's become an established version. But then I like Del McCoury's version of 1952 Vincent Black Lightning better than Richard Thompson's. On the occasions when he has a big enough band to do the original he invariably gives the main recognizable riff to a guest guitarist. I wonder why he doesn't travel with a band that can do his songs the way most people remember them. Not enough money, I guess. Or maybe he just wants to do them a different way. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#56
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 19/11/2015 2:17 p.m., Scott Dorsey wrote
Well, the thing is that when you have a loud band with a backline, there is no way to get clean vocals without overdubbing. Vocal booth, with visibility ? geoff |
#57
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#58
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
... I wonder why he doesn't travel with a band that can do his songs the way most people remember them. Not enough money, I guess. Or maybe he just wants to do them a different way. Well, aside from the fact that he doesn't really "travel with a band" any more, he may just be doing things differently to keep it musically interesting. And because some (most?) of the key players on the "classic" version are dead or retired. Maybe he doesn't want to be in a Dominos tribute band. It gets really boring doing the same song the exact same way for decades. There are songs I've been playing since the 1970's, and if I had to play them the way they were played back then, it would drive me crazy. And the lead singer on some of them died more than a decade ago; nobody sings like him, and nobody's interested in trying to copy his original recordings note-for-note. A song played live evolves over time, unlike a recording. I seriously doubt he's doing a different version for the money. He's doing it for the music. |
#59
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 18 Nov 2015, "None" wrote in rec.audio.pro:
Well, aside from the fact that he doesn't really "travel with a band" any more, he may just be doing things differently to keep it musically interesting. And because some (most?) of the key players on the "classic" version are dead or retired. Maybe he doesn't want to be in a Dominos tribute band. Clapton's bands usually have the right instrumentation to do the original arrangement of Layla if they want. I seem to recall him once saying that he had trouble summoning a suitably passionate vocal because he had performed it so many time. It gets really boring doing the same song the exact same way for decades. There are songs I've been playing since the 1970's, and if I had to play them the way they were played back then, it would drive me crazy. The unplugged version of Layla is itself almost 25 years old. I'd think he'd be getting tired of that one, too. I guess it has the advantage of taking less energy and commitment to play, and it gets over quicker. |
#60
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
geoff wrote:
On 19/11/2015 2:17 p.m., Scott Dorsey wrote Well, the thing is that when you have a loud band with a backline, there is no way to get clean vocals without overdubbing. Vocal booth, with visibility ? Can work well, as long as the singer isn't playing an instrument too. In which case it can go horribly wrong. Some folks like to put the drummer in a booth and remote the guitar amps. All of these approaches can sometimes work and sometimes make performers feel like they are playing in a plastic bubble and totally kill any sense of ensemble. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#61
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/19/2015 12:52 AM, Nil wrote:
The unplugged version of Layla is itself almost 25 years old. I'd think he'd be getting tired of that one, too. I guess it has the advantage of taking less energy and commitment to play, and it gets over quicker. That sounds reasonable to me. He knows that he's obligated to do the song, and those who expect to hear it probably don't care how he does it. Speaking of someone who isn't a raving Clapton fan, I'd rather he fill that slot in his shows with something new that he's working on rather than a not very interesting version of one of his greatest hits. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#62
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
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#63
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
Mike Rivers wrote: "Speaking of someone who isn't a raving Clapton fan, I'd rather he
fill that slot in his shows with something new that he's working on rather than a not very interesting version of one of his greatest hits. - show quoted text -" Nope - I, on the other hand, am a 99-percenter. In two regards: I am a big Clapton fan(though not raving!), and, I actually would not mind hearing him perform 3-4 hours of nothing but his greatest hits. |
#64
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 4:25:34 PM UTC-5, Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:00:13 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: No overdubbing? Bye bye Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. They are clearly rubbish. There is no problem with overdubbing, it keeps the artistic input consistent and saves splitting up the cash too many ways - important for a band. As for live performances - do something different, but equally good. The fans haven't turned up to hear the record playing anyway (OK, that's exactly what they have turned up for with the more youthful of today's cohort). Overdubbing? Save it for the non professionals. It seems like a plague in Pop music. Don't feel it's wanted in Jazz, Classical and other forms of music. If you need to overdub and lie to your fans, good luck. It's like do whatever necessary to achieve a hit. Poor musicians? Hire some to actually record for more impressive sound, but credit group members. Live recordings? There's still some decent audio people out there, like the rerecord of Eric Clapton's "Layla". Not bad!! Jack It's not lying. It's another way of making music. Do you object to a painter who paints the red as well as the blue? He should get another painter to do the red, surely. Any painting is a series of overlays done by one, or a few painter(s) at different times. That doesn't invalidate it as a work of art. Every recording is not a "record of a performance". Some of them are carefully crafted constructions. Maybe as such they will only exist in recorded format. That's fine. There is no law that says they must be performable live. Some are, of course - Brian May says that Bohemian Rhapsody was one of Queen's easier pieces to perform live. For you, of course, it isn't even music. You appear to have a very narrow view of what constitutes music. One must pity you and such limitations. You ask about colors of paintings - no big deal. But if you had a Picasso painting, and later found others were instrumental in composing and finalizing it, would you still respect Picasso? No different with music. Sure, I still like the music, but just disappointed how it was created. I assume you are in favor of overdubbing. Some are, some aren't. Like, Tom Dowd (deceased), who I respect, preferred recording "live", unlike others who didn't care, like Al Kooper, allowed overdubbing. Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#65
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:49:34 PM UTC-5, Nil wrote:
On 18 Nov 2015, (Scott Dorsey) wrote in rec.audio.pro: I'm not sure Mr. Agnew even knows what overdubbing is. It's clear he doesn't have any understanding of leakage or cancellation and is reluctant to attempts to explain it to him. He clearly has absolutely no idea how music is recorded. Absolutely correct!! But, unlike The Beatles, even this 1958 live Lonnie Donegan (UK) recording surfaced in Stereo!!... http://www.angelfire.com/empire/abps...uchewingum.mp3 Jack Every single one of his post comes from a position of utter and purposeful misunderstanding of how and why it's done. To try to correct the misconceptions would be a fulltime job... except that he obviously doesn't want to know the truth. He'd rather cling to his absurd fantasies. I think he just knows that he'll get a reaction by saying a particular thing so he does; his only goal is to get a reaction and he doesn't actually have anything to say himself. --scott Bingo. |
#66
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:09:57 -0800 (PST), JackA
wrote: .. You ask about colors of paintings - no big deal. But if you had a Picasso painting, and later found others were instrumental in composing and finalizing it, would you still respect Picasso? No different with music. Sure, I still like the music, but just disappointed how it was created. I assume you are in favor of overdubbing. Some are, some aren't. Like, Tom Dowd (deceased), who I respect, preferred recording "live", unlike others who didn't care, like Al Kooper, allowed overdubbing. Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus If you are so disappointed in how music is being made by others, create some of your own. Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com |
#67
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-5, Rick Ruskin wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:09:57 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: . You ask about colors of paintings - no big deal. But if you had a Picasso painting, and later found others were instrumental in composing and finalizing it, would you still respect Picasso? No different with music. Sure, I still like the music, but just disappointed how it was created. I assume you are in favor of overdubbing. Some are, some aren't. Like, Tom Dowd (deceased), who I respect, preferred recording "live", unlike others who didn't care, like Al Kooper, allowed overdubbing. Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus If you are so disappointed in how music is being made by others, create some of your own. Really? I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! Jack Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com |
#68
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/19/2015 12:26 PM, Neil wrote:
There are many types of musical constructions, and they aren't new. Back in the mid 1950s, electronic music soundtracks and other recordings were commonplace, created using a technique from the '30s called "musique concrete", which involved razor blades and recordings of discrete sound events. There was little hope of (and even less interest in) performing these pieces live. Actually, there were live performances, often teamed with dance, or as part of a multimedia project. There needs to be something more interesting to see than someone pressing the Play button on a tape deck, but just as there's canned music today being used in live performance, tape-based musical compositions were also incorporated in performance. Those in the music industry have long (if not always) made money by having their music performed by people who had no involvement in the recordings. This is true for some commercial songwriters, but musicians still make most of their money from live performance, and the opportunity that live performance offers to sell CDs, T-shirts, lunch boxes, key chains, song books, etc. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#69
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:13:23 -0800 (PST), JackA
wrote: On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-5, Rick Ruskin wrote: On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:09:57 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: . You ask about colors of paintings - no big deal. But if you had a Picasso painting, and later found others were instrumental in composing and finalizing it, would you still respect Picasso? No different with music. Sure, I still like the music, but just disappointed how it was created. I assume you are in favor of overdubbing. Some are, some aren't. Like, Tom Dowd (deceased), who I respect, preferred recording "live", unlike others who didn't care, like Al Kooper, allowed overdubbing. Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus If you are so disappointed in how music is being made by others, create some of your own. Really? I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! Jack Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com The only thing that is obvious is that you are a talentless wannabe. You bitch about what everyone is doing wrong and don't have a single thing of your own shwoing how t do it "right." Classic bull**** artist behavior. Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com |
#70
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 1:32:02 PM UTC-5, david gourley wrote:
Rick Ruskin said...news:js4s4b181ph0ke0diip218l7er9trt9t1e@4ax .com: On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:13:23 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-5, Rick Ruskin wrote: On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:09:57 -0800 (PST), JackA wrote: . You ask about colors of paintings - no big deal. But if you had a Picasso painting, and later found others were instrumental in composing and finalizing it, would you still respect Picasso? No different with music. Sure, I still like the music, but just disappointed how it was created. I assume you are in favor of overdubbing. Some are, some aren't. Like, Tom Dowd (deceased), who I respect, preferred recording "live", unlike others who didn't care, like Al Kooper, allowed overdubbing. Jack d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus If you are so disappointed in how music is being made by others, create some of your own. Really? I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! Jack Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com The only thing that is obvious is that you are a talentless wannabe. You bitch about what everyone is doing wrong and don't have a single thing of your own shwoing how t do it "right." Classic bull**** artist behavior. Rick Ruskin Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA http://liondogmusic.com And when you either question or offer a suggestion to the troll, he zigzags his answer to something else. He's got nothing, not even wannabe. It requires no effort on his part, anyway. Between you and Rick, you'd both win a Grammy. Not for best engineered sound, but best noise making!! Jack david |
#71
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 19/11/2015 18:38, JackA wrote:
Between you and Rick, you'd both win a Grammy. Not for best engineered sound, but best noise making!! And every time you post some of your remixed rubbish here, you win the outright prize for worst sound of the month. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#72
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 19/11/2015 18:13, JackA wrote:
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-5, Rick Ruskin wrote: If you are so disappointed in how music is being made by others, create some of your own. Really? I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! For your information, the lead guitarist on a lot of their big hits was Jeff Beck, who is generally considered to be one of the best guitarists and music arrangers of all time. Eric Clapton also appeared on a couple of their early singles, which didn't do as well as their later stuff. Then there was Jimmy Page, who went on to found Led Zeppelin. And so on... So, yeah, not "decent" musicians. Bloomin' brilliant ones, maybe, but not "decent". You might like to listen to some of their new stuff, with half the early line up still playing, and it's recorded in glorious stereo. A poor recording, but they are live... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQo6ajwPbU -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#73
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 2:21:40 PM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/11/2015 18:38, JackA wrote: Between you and Rick, you'd both win a Grammy. Not for best engineered sound, but best noise making!! And every time you post some of your remixed rubbish here, you win the outright prize for worst sound of the month. Look, just because you weren't gifted with great hearing like I am, don't take it out on me, take it up with your creator, whatever it may be!! Jack -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#74
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 19/11/2015 20:05, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/11/2015 18:13, JackA wrote: I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! You might like to listen to some of their new stuff, with half the early line up still playing, and it's recorded in glorious stereo. A poor recording, but they are live... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQo6ajwPbU There's a better recording he- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn7ZmI_wRv8 -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#75
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/19/2015 1:24 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/19/2015 12:26 PM, Neil wrote: There are many types of musical constructions, and they aren't new. Back in the mid 1950s, electronic music soundtracks and other recordings were commonplace, created using a technique from the '30s called "musique concrete", which involved razor blades and recordings of discrete sound events. There was little hope of (and even less interest in) performing these pieces live. Actually, there were live performances, often teamed with dance, or as part of a multimedia project. There needs to be something more interesting to see than someone pressing the Play button on a tape deck, but just as there's canned music today being used in live performance, tape-based musical compositions were also incorporated in performance. True, if performance or live presentation was the goal, which isn't always the case. Those in the music industry have long (if not always) made money by having their music performed by people who had no involvement in the recordings. This is true for some commercial songwriters, but musicians still make most of their money from live performance, and the opportunity that live performance offers to sell CDs, T-shirts, lunch boxes, key chains, song books, etc. Well sure, because by (union) definition, most musicians are performers. Regressing again, Les Paul and Mary Ford did a lot of music on record that was quite different from their live performances, by necessity. In other words, none of this is new. DAWs have made it easier for composers to get their ideas realized, and though their work is not necessarily connected to performances or even a viable income, it's still music! -- Best regards, Neil |
#76
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 20/11/2015 2:38 a.m., Frank Stearns wrote:
Bottom line: if the players aren't happy as the take going down, it's a lot harder to get a good performance. It might be "ideal" from an engineering point of view but then you struggle and stuggle with the mix -- not because the sonics are bad, but because you don't have any "musical soul" upon which to build that mix. Frank Mobile Audio You can always give them them fundamentalist alternative of a only stereo pair of mics and they just play. Sometimes that works for the recording, and sometimes that convinces them that the alternative method/s weren't so bad after all ! geoff |
#77
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/19/2015 3:20 PM, Neil wrote:
Well sure, because by (union) definition, most musicians are performers. Regressing again, Les Paul and Mary Ford did a lot of music on record that was quite different from their live performances, by necessity. In other words, none of this is new. Did you ever see Les Paul perform? The Les Paulverizer (a multitrack player that he could control from a switchbox on his guitar) was an essential part of his show. He could play live anything that he recorded, but for performance, he obviously needed prepared tracks for things that were processed in ways that he couldn't do live. Mary's sister or cousin would sing her doubled parts hidden behind a curtain when they did live shows. Les was not only a clever inventor, but a first class showman and darn good guitarist. His live shows were better than his records. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#78
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On 11/19/2015 4:03 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/19/2015 3:20 PM, Neil wrote: Well sure, because by (union) definition, most musicians are performers. Regressing again, Les Paul and Mary Ford did a lot of music on record that was quite different from their live performances, by necessity. In other words, none of this is new. Did you ever see Les Paul perform? Yes, more than once. Most recently about a year before he passed. The Les Paulverizer (a multitrack player that he could control from a switchbox on his guitar) was an essential part of his show. He could play live anything that he recorded, but for performance, he obviously needed prepared tracks for things that were processed in ways that he couldn't do live. Mary's sister or cousin would sing her doubled parts hidden behind a curtain when they did live shows. Les was not only a clever inventor, but a first class showman and darn good guitarist. His live shows were better than his records. No doubt, and I do not mean to suggest that his live shows were not fun; they were a good time. But, they were not the same as his recordings. Personally, I think that's a good thing. -- Best regards, Neil |
#79
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 3:10:23 PM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/11/2015 20:05, John Williamson wrote: On 19/11/2015 18:13, JackA wrote: I mean, listen to The Yardbirds, with all their overdubbing rendered them only in monophonic!! Not sure who the band members were, but not decent musicians, that's obvious!! You might like to listen to some of their new stuff, with half the early line up still playing, and it's recorded in glorious stereo. A poor recording, but they are live... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQo6ajwPbU There's a better recording he- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn7ZmI_wRv8 Here's the "boys" as George Martin would call them, trying their best to replicate what studio musicians recorded for them... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5zqidlxMQ Jack -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#80
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Audition 1.5 Problem I installed Audition 1.5 and.....
geoff wrote:
On 20/11/2015 2:38 a.m., Frank Stearns wrote: Bottom line: if the players aren't happy as the take going down, it's a lot harder to get a good performance. It might be "ideal" from an engineering point of view but then you struggle and stuggle with the mix -- not because the sonics are bad, but because you don't have any "musical soul" upon which to build that mix. Frank Mobile Audio You can always give them them fundamentalist alternative of a only stereo pair of mics and they just play. Sometimes that works for the recording, and sometimes that convinces them that the alternative method/s weren't so bad after all ! For a bluegrass band, I have sometimes done a hybrid arrangement. Single mike pair with the performers taking a few steps forward for solos and stepping back for the rest, making two tracks on the tape. Then a third and maybe fourth track with a vocal overdub. In a good room this can work well without the vocals disappearing and without the instruments getting mushy from leakage into the vocal mike, but still the vocals front and center and more prominent than they'd be if they were just recorded with the main pair. Sometimes performers find it a lot easier to play when they aren't singing, but sometimes performers find it harder too. Finding out which is the case for your performers is the key to the whole thing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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