Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Opposite of mu law is mu law isn't it? Instead of compressing , transmitting
then expanding you expand, transmit and then compress.

Best of Luck - Mike
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Opposite of mu law is mu law isn't it? Instead of compressing , transmitting
then expanding you expand, transmit and then compress.

Best of Luck - Mike
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Opposite of mu law is mu law isn't it? Instead of compressing , transmitting
then expanding you expand, transmit and then compress.

Best of Luck - Mike
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Opposite of mu law is mu law isn't it? Instead of compressing , transmitting
then expanding you expand, transmit and then compress.

Best of Luck - Mike
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 17 May 2004 20:18:22 -0700, (Curious)
wrote:

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

Not entirely sure what you mean about clipping - Mu law is just a
level weighting within the operating range of the DAC. Once you hit
the biggest number, you clip - whatever the law.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...
Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...
Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...
Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...
Curious wrote:

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..

"Curious" wrote in message
. com...

Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise. Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.


Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Curious wrote:

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...

...

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry


What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion.

There are two ways to do that: increase the number of bits, or use
something like mu-law. Mu-law allows a channel with only eight bits to
pass 12-bit levels without clipping.

I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

No. That's exactly what mu-law was designed to do. The price is not only
SNR, but a modest amount of non-linear distortion. With voice signals
-- mu-law's intended material -- primarily intermodulation distortion.
You could use a more severe compression curve that allows, say 14 bits
before clipping, but the distortion will be higher.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

Why did you think that dithering would allow higher levels? There's
profit in answering this. Think about how dithering affects dynamic
range.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Halve the gain so loud sounds don't overload. Use dithering to gain the
bit back as the low end. Then mu-compress the dithered signal.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...

...

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry


What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion.

There are two ways to do that: increase the number of bits, or use
something like mu-law. Mu-law allows a channel with only eight bits to
pass 12-bit levels without clipping.

I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

No. That's exactly what mu-law was designed to do. The price is not only
SNR, but a modest amount of non-linear distortion. With voice signals
-- mu-law's intended material -- primarily intermodulation distortion.
You could use a more severe compression curve that allows, say 14 bits
before clipping, but the distortion will be higher.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

Why did you think that dithering would allow higher levels? There's
profit in answering this. Think about how dithering affects dynamic
range.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Halve the gain so loud sounds don't overload. Use dithering to gain the
bit back as the low end. Then mu-compress the dithered signal.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...

...

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry


What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion.

There are two ways to do that: increase the number of bits, or use
something like mu-law. Mu-law allows a channel with only eight bits to
pass 12-bit levels without clipping.

I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

No. That's exactly what mu-law was designed to do. The price is not only
SNR, but a modest amount of non-linear distortion. With voice signals
-- mu-law's intended material -- primarily intermodulation distortion.
You could use a more severe compression curve that allows, say 14 bits
before clipping, but the distortion will be higher.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

Why did you think that dithering would allow higher levels? There's
profit in answering this. Think about how dithering affects dynamic
range.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Halve the gain so loud sounds don't overload. Use dithering to gain the
bit back as the low end. Then mu-compress the dithered signal.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Curious wrote:

Got a "cannot find server" error so posting again. Sorry for resulting
multi-posts.

Jerry Avins wrote in message ...

...

Mu-law is a compression standard. The transfer function is IIRC an
approximate hyperbolic cosine. It is used to compress a signal for
transmission. Its inverse (again IIRC), an arc hyperbolic cosine, is
used at the receiving end to restore (expand) the original signal.

Note that "compress" and "expand" don't refer here to the usual audio
compander pair which works on volume, but to instantaneous values
of the signal.

What you want to do sounds interesting, but either I don't fully
understand you, or you don't understand what mu-law is all about.

Jerry


What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion.

There are two ways to do that: increase the number of bits, or use
something like mu-law. Mu-law allows a channel with only eight bits to
pass 12-bit levels without clipping.

I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

No. That's exactly what mu-law was designed to do. The price is not only
SNR, but a modest amount of non-linear distortion. With voice signals
-- mu-law's intended material -- primarily intermodulation distortion.
You could use a more severe compression curve that allows, say 14 bits
before clipping, but the distortion will be higher.

BTW I tried dithering with AA, it did *not* increase the clipping
point at all. The dithering *does* makes the sound less "choppy" at
lower levels. This is not what I was looking for though.

Why did you think that dithering would allow higher levels? There's
profit in answering this. Think about how dithering affects dynamic
range.

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Halve the gain so loud sounds don't overload. Use dithering to gain the
bit back as the low end. Then mu-compress the dithered signal.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Curious" wrote in message
om...

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Just do like the guy in "Spinal Tap" and get an amp that goes to eleven ;-)

Clay.

p.s. Actually mu-law gives about 35 dB of S/N of about a 60 dB range. Not
bad for just 8 bits. You can extend this idea to whatever you need.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Just do like the guy in "Spinal Tap" and get an amp that goes to eleven ;-)

Clay.

p.s. Actually mu-law gives about 35 dB of S/N of about a 60 dB range. Not
bad for just 8 bits. You can extend this idea to whatever you need.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Just do like the guy in "Spinal Tap" and get an amp that goes to eleven ;-)

Clay.

p.s. Actually mu-law gives about 35 dB of S/N of about a 60 dB range. Not
bad for just 8 bits. You can extend this idea to whatever you need.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...

I am looking for something that increases the ability to handle louder
sounds.

Just do like the guy in "Spinal Tap" and get an amp that goes to eleven ;-)

Clay.

p.s. Actually mu-law gives about 35 dB of S/N of about a 60 dB range. Not
bad for just 8 bits. You can extend this idea to whatever you need.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
. ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise.
Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB
for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

No, for linear encoding, triangular probability density dither at the 1-bit
level is optimal. Adding more dither than that simply adds excessive noise.
Adding less dither creates less noise, but leaves more distortion. The
clipping level stays the same regardless of the dither level. In fact, if
linear *or* Mu-law encoders and decoders are calibrated so that digital full
scale has the same analog reference level, the clipping levels will be
identical, so the clipping question becomes moot.

No matter what, you won't get something for nothing. Mu-law is just a way to
re-allocate bits so that they're closer together where the signal is
smaller, and farther apart where the signal is larger. It tends to improve
the perceived audio quality, but it's hardly what you'd call high-fidelity
in its typical implementation. Mu-law was developed so that 8-bit
telecommunication channels could transmit voice messages with acceptable
intelligibility with minimal processing. It is a very primitive form of
audio data compression. There are much better ways of reducing bandwidth
these days -- MP3 for example. Even the lowest bit-rate MP3 encoding should
sound better than any of the low bit-rate formats discussed previously,
assuming you have the necessary codecs and processing horsepower available.

What is your application and/or goal? If you're looking for highest quality
and lowest bit-rate, you should consider recording with at least 16-bit
linear PCM at 44.1 KHz, and then convert it to MP3 or WMA at the highest
bit-rate you can afford. On the other hand, if you're looking for an
"effect" of some kind, I'd need a lot more information.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
. ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise.
Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB
for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

No, for linear encoding, triangular probability density dither at the 1-bit
level is optimal. Adding more dither than that simply adds excessive noise.
Adding less dither creates less noise, but leaves more distortion. The
clipping level stays the same regardless of the dither level. In fact, if
linear *or* Mu-law encoders and decoders are calibrated so that digital full
scale has the same analog reference level, the clipping levels will be
identical, so the clipping question becomes moot.

No matter what, you won't get something for nothing. Mu-law is just a way to
re-allocate bits so that they're closer together where the signal is
smaller, and farther apart where the signal is larger. It tends to improve
the perceived audio quality, but it's hardly what you'd call high-fidelity
in its typical implementation. Mu-law was developed so that 8-bit
telecommunication channels could transmit voice messages with acceptable
intelligibility with minimal processing. It is a very primitive form of
audio data compression. There are much better ways of reducing bandwidth
these days -- MP3 for example. Even the lowest bit-rate MP3 encoding should
sound better than any of the low bit-rate formats discussed previously,
assuming you have the necessary codecs and processing horsepower available.

What is your application and/or goal? If you're looking for highest quality
and lowest bit-rate, you should consider recording with at least 16-bit
linear PCM at 44.1 KHz, and then convert it to MP3 or WMA at the highest
bit-rate you can afford. On the other hand, if you're looking for an
"effect" of some kind, I'd need a lot more information.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
. ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise.
Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB
for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

No, for linear encoding, triangular probability density dither at the 1-bit
level is optimal. Adding more dither than that simply adds excessive noise.
Adding less dither creates less noise, but leaves more distortion. The
clipping level stays the same regardless of the dither level. In fact, if
linear *or* Mu-law encoders and decoders are calibrated so that digital full
scale has the same analog reference level, the clipping levels will be
identical, so the clipping question becomes moot.

No matter what, you won't get something for nothing. Mu-law is just a way to
re-allocate bits so that they're closer together where the signal is
smaller, and farther apart where the signal is larger. It tends to improve
the perceived audio quality, but it's hardly what you'd call high-fidelity
in its typical implementation. Mu-law was developed so that 8-bit
telecommunication channels could transmit voice messages with acceptable
intelligibility with minimal processing. It is a very primitive form of
audio data compression. There are much better ways of reducing bandwidth
these days -- MP3 for example. Even the lowest bit-rate MP3 encoding should
sound better than any of the low bit-rate formats discussed previously,
assuming you have the necessary codecs and processing horsepower available.

What is your application and/or goal? If you're looking for highest quality
and lowest bit-rate, you should consider recording with at least 16-bit
linear PCM at 44.1 KHz, and then convert it to MP3 or WMA at the highest
bit-rate you can afford. On the other hand, if you're looking for an
"effect" of some kind, I'd need a lot more information.

"Curious" wrote in message
om...
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
. ..
"Curious" wrote in message
m...
Mu-law decreases noise at low levels but makes the audio vulnerable to
clipping. Is there any codec that does the opposite?

I am looking for one that gives rich quality at loud levels but has
the drawback of a poor s/n ratio. Any hope?

I'd go with linear PCM with enough dither to mask the correlated noise.
Even
at four bits, dither helps. Dynamic range would be about 24 dB (48 dB
for 8
bits), but it would be "clean" except for the noise. If you didn't use
dither, the sound would be distorted and grainy.

Adobe Auditon does allow converting to linear PCM format. Dithering is
also possible w/ AA.

If I want more of this "anti-Mu Law" effect should I dither more bits?

No, for linear encoding, triangular probability density dither at the 1-bit
level is optimal. Adding more dither than that simply adds excessive noise.
Adding less dither creates less noise, but leaves more distortion. The
clipping level stays the same regardless of the dither level. In fact, if
linear *or* Mu-law encoders and decoders are calibrated so that digital full
scale has the same analog reference level, the clipping levels will be
identical, so the clipping question becomes moot.

No matter what, you won't get something for nothing. Mu-law is just a way to
re-allocate bits so that they're closer together where the signal is
smaller, and farther apart where the signal is larger. It tends to improve
the perceived audio quality, but it's hardly what you'd call high-fidelity
in its typical implementation. Mu-law was developed so that 8-bit
telecommunication channels could transmit voice messages with acceptable
intelligibility with minimal processing. It is a very primitive form of
audio data compression. There are much better ways of reducing bandwidth
these days -- MP3 for example. Even the lowest bit-rate MP3 encoding should
sound better than any of the low bit-rate formats discussed previously,
assuming you have the necessary codecs and processing horsepower available.

What is your application and/or goal? If you're looking for highest quality
and lowest bit-rate, you should consider recording with at least 16-bit
linear PCM at 44.1 KHz, and then convert it to MP3 or WMA at the highest
bit-rate you can afford. On the other hand, if you're looking for an
"effect" of some kind, I'd need a lot more information.

18 May 2004 17:07:19 -0700, (Curious) pisze:

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

I think HDCD works that way. See:
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/articles.html
and
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/GainScale.pdf


--
Pozdrowienia

Andrzej Popowski

18 May 2004 17:07:19 -0700, (Curious) pisze:

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

I think HDCD works that way. See:
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/articles.html
and
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/GainScale.pdf


--
Pozdrowienia

Andrzej Popowski

18 May 2004 17:07:19 -0700, (Curious) pisze:

What I would like is to increase the clipping point - that is, the
increase the loudnest sound that can be recorded without causing
distortion. I would like a type of codec that does this. Has a
strength of being able to handle louder sounder w/out clipping, yet
with the price of decreased SNR. Mu-law seems to do the opposite.

I think HDCD works that way. See:
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/articles.html
and
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/GainScale.pdf


--
Pozdrowienia

Andrzej Popowski