On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:05:19 +0200, "BitBanger" wrote:


"Barry Mann" wrote in message
. com...
In , on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" said:

Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
about this.

I assume you are talking about service manuals.

I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
manufacturers.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
well.

I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
but it is a *HUGE* project.

There's no other way in any case as most older service manuals only exist in
microfilm format. But the resolution is very good so scanning it and
converting it to PDF would surely be feasible, and it being digital, the
format size doesn't really matter.


Well, manuals ARE copyrighted. It's not against the law to reverse
engineer them tho'.
In fact many of the aftermarket manuals I've seen appear identical to
their oem counterparts.
Face it though. sharing a manual for free would at best be difficult
to procecute.
Certainly a far more trivial crime when compared to the highway
robbery of the oem's and the prices they charge for a manual.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:05:19 +0200, "BitBanger" wrote:


"Barry Mann" wrote in message
. com...
In , on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" said:

Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
about this.

I assume you are talking about service manuals.

I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
manufacturers.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
well.

I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
but it is a *HUGE* project.

There's no other way in any case as most older service manuals only exist in
microfilm format. But the resolution is very good so scanning it and
converting it to PDF would surely be feasible, and it being digital, the
format size doesn't really matter.


Well, manuals ARE copyrighted. It's not against the law to reverse
engineer them tho'.
In fact many of the aftermarket manuals I've seen appear identical to
their oem counterparts.
Face it though. sharing a manual for free would at best be difficult
to procecute.
Certainly a far more trivial crime when compared to the highway
robbery of the oem's and the prices they charge for a manual.

I would like to see a system in place where persons in the business, or
knowledgeable amateurs, perhaps with a small yearly fee to join or stay in
the registry, could download service literature as needed.

Old manuals can be and often are scanned. As time goes by more equipment
will have electronic service data available.

I also think that when manufacturers discontinue a part, they should be
required to release the specs for that part and relinquish any proprietary
rights. Then if there's a sufficient market, second sources will come along
(like for Mitsubishi flybacks 4 years old and discontinued.).

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"gothika" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in
module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the
nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal
but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file
info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

I would like to see a system in place where persons in the business, or
knowledgeable amateurs, perhaps with a small yearly fee to join or stay in
the registry, could download service literature as needed.

Old manuals can be and often are scanned. As time goes by more equipment
will have electronic service data available.

I also think that when manufacturers discontinue a part, they should be
required to release the specs for that part and relinquish any proprietary
rights. Then if there's a sufficient market, second sources will come along
(like for Mitsubishi flybacks 4 years old and discontinued.).

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"gothika" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in
module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the
nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal
but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file
info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

I would like to see a system in place where persons in the business, or
knowledgeable amateurs, perhaps with a small yearly fee to join or stay in
the registry, could download service literature as needed.

Old manuals can be and often are scanned. As time goes by more equipment
will have electronic service data available.

I also think that when manufacturers discontinue a part, they should be
required to release the specs for that part and relinquish any proprietary
rights. Then if there's a sufficient market, second sources will come along
(like for Mitsubishi flybacks 4 years old and discontinued.).

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"gothika" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in
module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the
nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal
but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file
info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

....Moose

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0500, gothika
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

....Moose

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0500, gothika
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

....Moose

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0500, gothika
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) caused an illegal operation in module
:
I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.

Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals. I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals. I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals. I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:29 -0400, Moose wrote:

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Ask the owner.

A manufacturer may take the attitude that distributing information
about their products can do them nothing but good. Or they may say
it's theirs, they sell it, hands off! They are perfectly entitled to
say the latter.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:29 -0400, Moose wrote:

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Ask the owner.

A manufacturer may take the attitude that distributing information
about their products can do them nothing but good. Or they may say
it's theirs, they sell it, hands off! They are perfectly entitled to
say the latter.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:29 -0400, Moose wrote:

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Ask the owner.

A manufacturer may take the attitude that distributing information
about their products can do them nothing but good. Or they may say
it's theirs, they sell it, hands off! They are perfectly entitled to
say the latter.

Sony is the only consumer electronics company I know of which goes to the
trouble of stating in the contracts with their servicers that theirs manuals
etc are not to be distributed without permission.
Still, I'm not aware of them pursuing any violations of this.

My shop is an authorized Sony servicer however, so I'm not planning to risk
any large scale sharing of their stuff. Their manuals are increasingly "out
there" though, and I'm not above helping out the occasional tech or
knowledgeable amateur who needs help.

Many of the other consumer electronics firms need all the help they can get
servicing their junk. Newsgroups and the (relatively) free sharing of
information is a help in this process, not a hindrance.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" wrote in message
...
Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would
think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals.
I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights
on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

Sony is the only consumer electronics company I know of which goes to the
trouble of stating in the contracts with their servicers that theirs manuals
etc are not to be distributed without permission.
Still, I'm not aware of them pursuing any violations of this.

My shop is an authorized Sony servicer however, so I'm not planning to risk
any large scale sharing of their stuff. Their manuals are increasingly "out
there" though, and I'm not above helping out the occasional tech or
knowledgeable amateur who needs help.

Many of the other consumer electronics firms need all the help they can get
servicing their junk. Newsgroups and the (relatively) free sharing of
information is a help in this process, not a hindrance.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" wrote in message
...
Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would
think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals.
I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights
on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

Sony is the only consumer electronics company I know of which goes to the
trouble of stating in the contracts with their servicers that theirs manuals
etc are not to be distributed without permission.
Still, I'm not aware of them pursuing any violations of this.

My shop is an authorized Sony servicer however, so I'm not planning to risk
any large scale sharing of their stuff. Their manuals are increasingly "out
there" though, and I'm not above helping out the occasional tech or
knowledgeable amateur who needs help.

Many of the other consumer electronics firms need all the help they can get
servicing their junk. Newsgroups and the (relatively) free sharing of
information is a help in this process, not a hindrance.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" wrote in message
...
Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would
think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals.
I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights
on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" wrote in message
...
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

...Moose

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

....Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

....Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

....Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Moose" wrote in message
...
The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

...Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from
'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on
someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Moose" wrote in message
...
The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

...Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from
'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on
someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Moose" wrote in message
...
The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

...Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

In rec.audio.tech Moose wrote:
Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from
'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on
someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

For quite a while Harman Kardon made all their service manuals available for
download by the general public. They eventually stopped, but I'm not sure if
it was the fault of the bean-counters, or the lawyers. They might have been
afraid of making lots of Darwin-Award candidates.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Carl" wrote in message
...
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

For quite a while Harman Kardon made all their service manuals available for
download by the general public. They eventually stopped, but I'm not sure if
it was the fault of the bean-counters, or the lawyers. They might have been
afraid of making lots of Darwin-Award candidates.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Carl" wrote in message
...
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

For quite a while Harman Kardon made all their service manuals available for
download by the general public. They eventually stopped, but I'm not sure if
it was the fault of the bean-counters, or the lawyers. They might have been
afraid of making lots of Darwin-Award candidates.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Carl" wrote in message
...
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.


Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.


Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:10:14 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

So? Who cares if it's single-part? In many ways it's more
convenient if they aren't. Yenc and PAR files are the
newsgroup-user's friend.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:10:14 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

So? Who cares if it's single-part? In many ways it's more
convenient if they aren't. Yenc and PAR files are the
newsgroup-user's friend.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:10:14 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

So? Who cares if it's single-part? In many ways it's more
convenient if they aren't. Yenc and PAR files are the
newsgroup-user's friend.

Mark D. Zacharias ) said those last words:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s
--
© Chaos Master. |"These wounds won't seem to heal
My Evanescence HP is at: | This pain is just too real
http://marreka.no-ip.com | There's just too much that time can't erase"
(most often offline... ) | -- Evanescence, "My Immortal"

Mark D. Zacharias ) said those last words:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s
--
© Chaos Master. |"These wounds won't seem to heal
My Evanescence HP is at: | This pain is just too real
http://marreka.no-ip.com | There's just too much that time can't erase"
(most often offline... ) | -- Evanescence, "My Immortal"

Mark D. Zacharias ) said those last words:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s
--
© Chaos Master. |"These wounds won't seem to heal
My Evanescence HP is at: | This pain is just too real
http://marreka.no-ip.com | There's just too much that time can't erase"
(most often offline... ) | -- Evanescence, "My Immortal"

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:41:54 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) said those last words:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s


Many of us are still on dialup.(If it weren't for being able to get
practicle use out of it I wouldn't have that. I logon mostly to obtain
information or software etc... My "web-surfing" days are definitely
over.)
That said I've gotten service info/software from ohters on the web by
snail mail.(Some were kind enough to offer to ship for the cost of
postage of a CD-R.)
Since I've tried to reciprocate whenever possible.
That would be one way of exchanging information most don't want us to
have.

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:41:54 -0300, Chaos Master
wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias ) said those last words:
There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s


Many of us are still on dialup.(If it weren't for being able to get
practicle use out of it I wouldn't have that. I logon mostly to obtain
information or software etc... My "web-surfing" days are definitely
over.)
That said I've gotten service info/software from ohters on the web by
snail mail.(Some were kind enough to offer to ship for the cost of
postage of a CD-R.)
Since I've tried to reciprocate whenever possible.
That would be one way of exchanging information most don't want us to
have.