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#41
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ha ha GOT HIM! Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
Let's see it's July 2003; my aol account has been active since 1990. That's "nearly 15 years old" in my book. This is ignoring that i began using e-mail professionally in 1985. Do the math. 2003-1990 = 13 years. Unless you signed up on Jan 1, 1990, then that e-mail address is "nearly 13 years old". Giving you some handicap for your alzheimers, maybe "nearly 14 years old". -- Lizard teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta* http://www.teamrocs.com/ Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com |
#42
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EXAGERATIN TOM! Subwoofer direction
Eddie Runner wrote:
I had a BBS system that went online in 1982 and ran continuosly till 1993, of course I was online much earlier than 82, and there were no EMail addresses as we know them today... Hey OLD GUY...what BBS software did you use? I found an old copy of XP (Crosspoint) in a box of computer stuff I bought at an auction. I was seriously thinking of hacking it to serve VPN connections. -- Lizard teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta* http://www.teamrocs.com/ Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com |
#43
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OLD BBS EXAGERATIN TOM! Subwoofer direction
I forget what the very first one I ran was... But I ran one
on the Atari called FoRuM which stood for friends of Ricky the Moose... (dont aske me! there were some really nutty hacker types doing this stuff back then, appearantly along with lots O drugs).... When the PCs came about I ran the RBBS and some others.. (PCboard and some I cant rememeber now) Eddie The Lizard wrote: Eddie Runner wrote: I had a BBS system that went online in 1982 and ran continuosly till 1993, of course I was online much earlier than 82, and there were no EMail addresses as we know them today... Hey OLD GUY...what BBS software did you use? I found an old copy of XP (Crosspoint) in a box of computer stuff I bought at an auction. I was seriously thinking of hacking it to serve VPN connections. -- Lizard teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta* http://www.teamrocs.com/ Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com |
#44
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Subwoofer direction
Have you done it with a sub crossed over at say 50hz low pass, with a steep
slope, say 24db per octave at least? So your sub is producing NOTHING but below 60hz frequencies? 12bd slope would need to be crossed very low. I'm going to give it a shot tomorrow with my car parked in the laneway and see if it makes any difference with only 60hz or less going to the sub, then with the crossover set to roughly 150Hz and compare. I'm not disagreeing with you guys and agreeing with NOUSAINE, I think both are correct (well, I'm not sure but I will try it myself). I know you and Eddie and everyone have noticed the difference when you put your sub tight against the back seat and face it out the trunk, in comparison to turning it around and facing the back seat (towards the listener). I know it makes a difference. I have heard it in my car, and many others. But the sub has always been crossed over well above 60Hz (in my case). In reality, most subs are crossed well above 60hz, correct? Or am I wrong to say that? For most people, in most cases, its very impractical to cross over that low, right? Eddie, can you say honestly you have done it with a sub crossed really low, 50hz or even less and noticed the same difference? I will find out tomorrow........ (car needs struts, can't drive it anyways, gotta do somthin with the stereo :P) "Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... He is saying it will make no difference with bass below 60Hz or so! Why don't you guys get a good 24 or 48db crossover, set it real low, and go TEST IT IN YOUR CAR! Move the sub around, face it towards the back seat, then try other positions! Have you ever done this? I KNOW that it happens. I have done it in several vehicles myself, Eddie has done it in several (probably hunderd) vehicles. You can argue that it cant happen but it does, It has been done and will continue to be done and no amount of fancy talk from Nousaine will change that. No article in some crappy magazine will change that. I don't see how you guys can argue NOUSAINE when you don't even understand what he is saying! I think people understand clearly. I have understood the whole thread and it is blantanly obvious that he is wrong. Why cant anyone argue with Nousaine? Because he writes for a magazine he is some audio expert? I dont think so. You should read some of the crap he spouts on other groups. He is a writer not an audio guru. Put down the magazine and maybe you will learn something. Les |
#47
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STanDIng WAveS Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
Are you now admitting that turning the woofer box around backwards CAN IMPROVE THE BASS??? Eddie Runner No you idiot Im the idiot????? You need to get you a subwoofer box and test it for youself.... Eddie Runner |
#48
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Subwoofer direction
"=E3=DE0=E7=E3|=FF=DEs" wrote:
Eddie, can you say honestly you have done it with a sub crossed really = low, 50hz or even less and noticed the same difference? I have done it with a 50Hz test tone from an oscillator.... Eddie |
#49
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Personalities Subwoofer direction
are you saying I dont have an offensive personallity??
Eddie daxe wrote: "=E3=DE0=E7=E3|=FF=DEs" wrote in message ... THAT IS NOT WHAT HE IS SAYING! I don't see how you guys can argue NOUSAINE when you don't even under= stand what he is saying! because smug, complacent, arrogant, marrow-minded people deserve to be argued with, no matter if they are right or wrong. You know why this d= oofus hangs around on the internet? Because people like him get the **** kic= ked out of them on a regular basis in the real world as a byproduct of thei= r offensive personalities. ~daxe |
#50
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Tom is changing his story now! Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
In a car there ARE OPPOSING WALLS! Of course. That's why we have standing waves. But they don't form below 50-60 Hz in most cars because that's in the pressure zone. You WERE SAYING they cant happen in a car at 60HZ (thats what frequency my paper is geared for) .... NOW YOUR SAYING BELOW 50Hz!! Are you changing your story a little TOM??? Eddie Runner |
#51
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SHIFTED UPWARD?? Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
Standing waves in the car are shifted upward to roughly 60-600 Hz. In a living room they occur typically between about 30-300 Hz. I use a 50Hz tone in a car and I DO HAVE standing waves.. if there were none the sound pressure would be EQUAL everyplace in the car! Using a 50Hz tone there is NO WAY my frequencies are SHIFTED UP! Unless I tune my oscillator up... Is that what you want me to do??? DUH Eddie RUnner but that is NOT needed to make a simple standing wave... Find a definition of STANDING WAVE I thinkyou will find yourself WRONG! There's a nice picture of a Kundt tube on page 2 of Everest's "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" that describes how standing waves are formed with a sound source at one end and a plug in the other end of the tube. You ought to read this. Standing waves are the result of interg\ferance. When two sets of waves of eaqual ampitude and wavelength pass through each other in opposite directions the waves are steadily in and out of phase with each other.... Ok how do they manage to travel in different directions unless there are two sources? In your example, they are traveling in the same direction when they interfere. That's not a standing wave. this definition was from CONCEPTIAL PHYSICS seventh edition by Paul Gittewitt. Its one simple definition... There is a MORE COMPLEX 2 wall and even a 6 wall defintion in the Sams Handbook for Sound Engineers, but since Im not neccisarilly talking about more than one wall in my example (to keep it simple for the folks), You have to keepit simple because it's quite clear you don't understand the acoustics here. Your pictures describe an interference effect that occurs at higher frequencies. I will not use those definitions here unless I dcide to talk about more than one wall.. Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ You don't get standing waves in rooms and cars without opposing surfaces. |
#52
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Standing waves
What are standing waves and why do they appear to stand.... arguing with Tom is fun but for those of you that may want some facts with out all the namecalling and fuss of trying to read the good stuff in our parlay without being distracted by Toms exagerations here is my view on it.... When two or more sound waves cross or compine with each other something happens called superposition...This means they add together changing the loudness.. If the waves are inphase with each other they add together 1+1=2 the sound is louder at this point... if the waves are out of phase when they meet +1-1=0 the sound is softer at this point.... so basicly if the sounds are IN PHASE there is an increase in sound and if the sounds are OUT OF PHASE there is a decrease in sound. Phase is like a circle of 360degrees, if were out of phase we are 180 degrees different than the original ... The closer we get to OUT of phase the more loss we have and the closer we get to IN phase the more gain we have.... simple so far... When a sound REFLECTS and bounces back crossing the original sound wave there are points along the path of the moving soundwaves where they are IN PHASE and points where the two waves are OUT OF PHASE... For instance, at 1/4 wavelength from the reflecting surface, the differnce between the original wave and the reflected wave WILL ALWAYS BE 180degrees! How can that be? Simple, if the original sound wave is at say 0 degrees of its cycle, the reflected wave (being 1/2 wavelength away (1/4 to the reflector and 1/4 back to the spot)) must be at 180 degrees.... As the first wave changes to 1 degree (this happens real fast) the reflection at that spot will be 181 degrees,,, still 180degree differnce! first wave 2 reflection 182 first wave 5 reflection 185 first wave 10 reflection 190 still 180 degree differnce at that spot first wave 180 reflection 0 still 180 degree difference at that spot, there will ALWAYS be 180 degree difference, this causes a DIP in loudness AT THAT SPOT! Now, by the same token, at other spots like 1/2 wavelength from the reflector, there will be peaks, because at that SPOT there will always be 0 degrees of difference between the first wave and the reflected wave!! If the first wave is 0 the reflected wave must travel 1/2 wave to the reflector (180) and 1/2 wave back (another 180) so the reflected wave is 360 (same as zero)... AND WE GET REINFORCEMENT A PEAK that is ALWAYS THERE! So with the DIPS and PEAKS that never change thier location, the wave APPEARS to STAND STILL... Even though waves are moveing both directions very fast, they are not really standing still! But because there are CONSTANT phse relationships that DONT CHANGE, the waves APPEAR to stand still and they call these STANDING WAVES.... This example is one speaker and one reflector.... It gets more fun when we have TWO reflectors and even more fun when we have more reflectors... Hope this helps anyone who doesnt want to try to keep up with the mess in the other thread... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
#53
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Tom is changing his story now! Subwoofer direction
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#54
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CORVETTE too small to judge Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
Depends on the size of the car. The frequency freqeuncy of the lowest axial mode is lower for larger cars and higher for smaller cars. In a car with the interior volume of a Corvette or Integra the frequency is 60 Hz. There ya go! I have been telling folks your article was flawed BECAUSE OF THE CORVETTE for years.... The corvette IS TOO SMALL! You try to baffle us with the bull**** about the interior of the corvette having ALMOST the same interior size as the HONDA but YOUR EXAGERATING AGIAN!! AND the Honda has a trunk! The trunk, since thats where the woofers are HAS TO BE COUNTED AS INTERIOR SPACE!! Your Corvette has NO TRUNK thus MUCH much smaller space!! Heck, a corvette is so small I dont see how you can move yoru woofer box around much anyway... So how can you claim moving the box wont make a difference when your TEST CAR is FLAWED...????? In-car response below 60 Hz in this vehicle is unchanged by subwoofer location or direction. there are 1000s of kids out there that KNOW your wrong! Eddie |
#56
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Moving the Mic!! Subwoofer direction
AH HA!
I was saving that for later.... With woofers ANYWHERE in the car, play a 50Hz tone and then move the mic around the inside of the car! IS IT THE SAME EVERYWHERE???? Of course not! So, if as you say (correctly) that moving the box is the same as moving the mic.... And as you say moving the box wont change the SPL.... Then according to you the MIC wont change when you move it throughout the vehicle... EVERYONE KNOWS IT DOES CHANGE! This is the basis of many of the SPL contest rules in fact!! Eddie Runner (trapped ya again didnt I tom?) Nousaine wrote: You idiot. The cute trick is to put the woofer in the driver's seat and then take measurements by moving the microphone. |
#57
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Subwoofer direction
/snip/
But this is what people "hear" when they re-orient the woofer direction. erm, no. in my experience i've seen noticable gains in the region from 30 - 50 hz just by turning around a sub enclosure. also, i was running 36 db/octave active filters,so i don't think it was a reduction of midrange that i was perceiving as an increase in bass. |
#58
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ha ha GOT HIM! Subwoofer direction
Let's see it's July 2003; my aol account has been active since 1990. That's "nearly 15 years old" in my book. This is ignoring that i began using professionally in 1985. that's probably the only thing you've done professionally. |
#59
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Subwoofer direction
The only changes made to my system at the time, was the fact I turned the
box around, I have 2 10" Infinity Reference subwooffers mounted in a sealed box with .74cubic feet internal volume, powered by a Rockford Fosgate 500x 4-channel amp, bridged to 2 channels. I only used the crossover already on the amp, which I don't know the specs on, but I've never changed it. I consider bass, what I can feel and what any person would consider "low" sounding tones. I don't have any equipment to test the difference, but it is a very noticable (audible) sound difference. Also bass is less prodominate outside the car, where it is now more prodominate inside the car, being that more can be heard and felt. And once again no other changes were made except for physically tunring the box around to face the rear of the car. I would also like to add, I did this several times and noticed the difference everytime. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Luke Hague" Wow, you must be tone deaf, cause when I turned my speakers around in the hatch of my '96 Escort LX, there was a HUGE difference, I went from not having any bass, to having more than enough bass. So in turn, I turned my amp down, so in the long run it also saved my speakers. So what's your crossover frequency? What kind of woofer system is employed? What do you consider bass? How did you verify the difference? Were any other changes made at the same time? |
#60
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Subwoofer direction
"Luke Hague" wrote:
The only changes made to my system at the time, was the fact I turned the box around, I have 2 10" Infinity Reference subwooffers mounted in a sealed box with .74cubic feet internal volume, powered by a Rockford Fosgate 500x 4-channel amp, bridged to 2 channels. I only used the crossover already on the amp, which I don't know the specs on, but I've never changed it. I consider bass, what I can feel and what any person would consider "low" sounding tones. I don't have any equipment to test the difference, but it is a very noticable (audible) sound difference. Also bass is less prodominate outside the car, where it is now more prodominate inside the car, being that more can be heard and felt. And once again no other changes were made except for physically tunring the box around to face the rear of the car. I would also like to add, I did this several times and noticed the difference everytime. These anecdotal reports are quite common and are useful as far as they go. But I performed this test with calibrated measurement systems and recorded the data with conditions that can be duplicated by anybody. Yours cannot because we really don't know the true conditions such as program material, etc. That's fine but it doesn't really address the issue as to if anything is really happening. For example did you control levels? Did you use consistent programs, how did you assess the 'aubility' of what you thoght you were hearing? These issues are part of another subject (normal human listening bias) that helps account for lots of Urban Legends in car. pro and home audio systems. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Luke Hague" Wow, you must be tone deaf, cause when I turned my speakers around in the hatch of my '96 Escort LX, there was a HUGE difference, I went from not having any bass, to having more than enough bass. So in turn, I turned my amp down, so in the long run it also saved my speakers. So what's your crossover frequency? What kind of woofer system is employed? What do you consider bass? How did you verify the difference? Were any other changes made at the same time? |
#61
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Subwoofer direction
You just keep referring to your test which I'm sure came out as true,
because of you're test environment, but for you to prove you're theory you should try it in multiple vehicles. What was the vehicle you were using to test this on? Because space is what is the biggest factor in subwoofer direction, I may not be a professional at car installation, but it doesn't take an expert to understand that sound wave can be cancelled by two of the same sound waves colliding, this can be show in a simple physics problem, such as force. When two object traveling at the same speed, and that have the same mass, collide, they cancel eachother out, meaning neither object moves. What happens, as Eddie has explained on his, in where he used test equipment (like you) and in an average everyday vehicle, is that the back of the box produces the same waves as the front of the box, when these waves collide, they cancel out. It's a very simple theory, and the only way it can be proven is by testing. And in such I have, in my own vehicle, as I said before, I changed NOTHING except the direction of my box. As far as bias listening as you put it, I can't really object, except only to remind you that I've done this many times in the same car, turning the box back to the front, and then to the rear again, and each time I can hear a greater amount of bass. I don't really understand how you can sit there, and tell me that I am wrong when I know for a fact it's made a huge difference. Perhaps it's something else that has occurred, but I know for a FACT that the bass is greater with the box facing the rear. This theory can also apply to home theater, or sound systems, in fact it could be proven to you easier here than in a car. If you take the sub woofer for the speaker system, and it has to be just the sub and it has to be loud, take that sub and play a real low tone through it, then face it against the wall, now move it back and forth against the wall, not like a couple of inches either, I'm talking feet. You WILL notice a difference. This is attributed to that simple physics problem that you really can dispute. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Luke Hague" wrote: The only changes made to my system at the time, was the fact I turned the box around, I have 2 10" Infinity Reference subwooffers mounted in a sealed box with .74cubic feet internal volume, powered by a Rockford Fosgate 500x 4-channel amp, bridged to 2 channels. I only used the crossover already on the amp, which I don't know the specs on, but I've never changed it. I consider bass, what I can feel and what any person would consider "low" sounding tones. I don't have any equipment to test the difference, but it is a very noticable (audible) sound difference. Also bass is less prodominate outside the car, where it is now more prodominate inside the car, being that more can be heard and felt. And once again no other changes were made except for physically tunring the box around to face the rear of the car. I would also like to add, I did this several times and noticed the difference everytime. These anecdotal reports are quite common and are useful as far as they go. But I performed this test with calibrated measurement systems and recorded the data with conditions that can be duplicated by anybody. Yours cannot because we really don't know the true conditions such as program material, etc. That's fine but it doesn't really address the issue as to if anything is really happening. For example did you control levels? Did you use consistent programs, how did you assess the 'aubility' of what you thoght you were hearing? These issues are part of another subject (normal human listening bias) that helps account for lots of Urban Legends in car. pro and home audio systems. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Luke Hague" Wow, you must be tone deaf, cause when I turned my speakers around in the hatch of my '96 Escort LX, there was a HUGE difference, I went from not having any bass, to having more than enough bass. So in turn, I turned my amp down, so in the long run it also saved my speakers. So what's your crossover frequency? What kind of woofer system is employed? What do you consider bass? How did you verify the difference? Were any other changes made at the same time? |
#62
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Subwoofer direction
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#63
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Subwoofer direction
"Luke Hague" wrote:
I guess I just have a couple of questions in this can then. How many times have you preformed any sort of scientific experiment on this, and in how many vehicles? How many times have YOU performed this experiment in what vehicles and what were the conditions? Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? It doesn't. If it did then it would occur in any vehicle, wouldn't it. I didn't see any qualifications about vehicles or size on Eddie's web-site. That bass is improved is simply your conjecture un-verified by analysis and experimental results. How come noise-cancelling head phones work so well, when they use the same principle that I stated? The headphones produce the same tone as the ambient noise around you to cancel it out, at least this is how Sony does it, I haven't read anything on Bose, but I would imagine it's the same prinicple. The "same" tone is quite different from a 'reflection' is it not. But that's one of my points about the Eddie cartoon. If it worked as he says with the samplitudes shown in his drawing, why doesn't the 'reflection' completely cancel the original signal? What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. What does 'trunk space' have to do with anything? There's no "trunk" in the cartoon that I can see. To continue with that physics example though, it wouldn't completely cancel out the 60hz tones because it's an imperfect environment, it would only quiet it down, for it to be a complete cancelation, everything would have to be the same. Oh boy??????? With the drawing what's different anywhere, anytime? "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Luke Hague" wrote: You just keep referring to your test which I'm sure came out as true, because of you're test environment, but for you to prove you're theory you should try it in multiple vehicles. What was the vehicle you were using to test this on? Corvette;but what difference should that make. Eddie's web-site uses NO car. Because space is what is the biggest factor in subwoofer direction, I may not be a professional at car installation, but it doesn't take an expert to understand that sound wave can be cancelled by two of the same sound waves colliding, this can be show in a simple physics problem, such as force. When two object traveling at the same speed, and that have the same mass, collide, they cancel eachother out, meaning neither object moves. Really? well how does the force get distributed and/or disappated? 2 vehicles traveling at 50 mph in a head-on will simply stop and nothing else will happen? Of course, you aren't but that's what you said. What happens, as Eddie has explained on his, in where he used test equipment (like you) and in an average everyday vehicle, is that the back of the box produces the same waves as the front of the box, when these waves collide, they cancel out. So if you put in a 60 Hz tone and they cancel out and you get no sound? If that's true then why do you need a wall? It's a very simple theory, and the only way it can be proven is by testing. And in such I have, in my own vehicle, as I said before, I changed NOTHING except the direction of my box. I hear this all the time fromothers but every time I investigate i find that other factors have not been controlled or documented. As far as bias listening as you put it, I can't really object, except only to remind you that I've done this many times in the same car, turning the box back to the front, and then to the rear again, and each time I can hear a greater amount of bass. I don't really understand how you can sit there, and tell me that I am wrong when I know for a fact it's made a huge difference. Perhaps it's something else that has occurred, but I know for a FACT that the bass is greater with the box facing the rear. Well then how come that doesn't occur in my car and the others I've used? This theory can also apply to home theater, or sound systems, in fact it could be proven to you easier here than in a car. If you take the sub woofer for the speaker system, and it has to be just the sub and it has to be loud, take that sub and play a real low tone through it, then face it against the wall, now move it back and forth against the wall, not like a couple of inches either, I'm talking feet. You WILL notice a difference. This is attributed to that simple physics problem that you really can dispute. Home Theater is my specialty. Yes if you move your subwoofer away from a wall or out of the corner response does change in the range of 30-300 Hz in the typically sized listening room. That's because any other location, other than a corner will fail to excite some room modes and put holes in the sound pressure. My point is that in a smaller space, like a car, that inflection point is raised by roughly an octave to 60-600 Hz. In either space, room or car, below the lowest axial mode the speaker (if it has adequate displacement) directly pressurizes the space. There are no modes (standing waves) below this frequency. What happens with the "Eddie Effect" as described on his web-site is that a single wall replection can cause a response cancellation BUT NOT at or below the pressure zone. In my experiment that occured at 188 Hz and with the woofer facing the rear of the vehicle. Boundary cancellation is well known and has been for years. But it doesn't happen at the excitation frequency. |
#64
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Subwoofer direction
Luke Hague wrote:
Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? Tom says 1) it cant happen! 2) if we think it does happen we dont know the defintion of bass and its really highs that get louder, not bass... ha ha ha What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. Think about how small a corvette is on the interior, I can barely get my fat ass into one, so just how much can the woofer box in the back actually be moved for the test??? We can scoot a box around in a normal car trunk several feet, in Toms Corvette piece of **** I would doubt there is enough room to move a box around more then a few inches... EVERYONE here can plainly see, but dont expect a reversal from Tom, he wrote a magazine article for the kiddies and it would be too big of an embarasment for him to admit he is wrong now.. (human nature I think) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
#65
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Subwoofer direction
Eddie Runner wrote:
Luke Hague wrote: Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? Tom says 1) it cant happen! 2) if we think it does happen we dont know the defintion of bass and its really highs that get louder, not bass... ha ha ha What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. My 2001 C5 has 25 cubic feet of hatch space which is larger and has more movement space than most trunks. But so what, according to Eddie all the room you need is enough to put the box in the car and close the boot. Then you can put it in backward. But, I've done a full analysis of the effect including max SPL at the drivers seat between 10 and 60 Hz with the enclosure face facing the frotn of the vehicle and with it facing the rear. Plus a set of full-band frequency response measurements with the enclosure faced either way. The ONLY thing that happens is that an interference effect at 188 Hz can be seen when the woofer face is facing the rear of the car. Think about how small a corvette is on the interior, I can barely get my fat ass into one, so just how much can the woofer box in the back actually be moved for the test??? 3 feet front to back and 4 feet side to side. We can scoot a box around in a normal car trunk several feet, in Toms Corvette piece of **** I would doubt there is enough room to move a box around more then a few inches... EVERYONE here can plainly see, but dont expect a reversal from Tom, he wrote a magazine article for the kiddies and it would be too big of an embarasment for him to admit he is wrong now.. (human nature I think) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ It's human nature for you to continue to posture but not put your claims to the test. You are simply very wrong which can be shown through a simple experiment with the variables controlled. This I have done before and I did it again in the past few days and the experimental evidence shows you are wrong. A single boundary cancellation will occur in a car but it never happens below the lowest axial mode of the vehicle interior space. In a compact car like an Integra, CRX, Civic, Spirit, Camaro, Corvette or even a full size X-Cab pick-up this cut-off point is 60 Hz. In a Pontiac Bonneville its a few Hz lower. In a full size van it may be as low as 45 Hz. But, no matter what car you're using this is related to the volume of the interior and it doesn't cancel deep bass and a single or mulitple boundary cancellation always occurs at frequencies above the lowest axial mode. |
#66
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Subwoofer direction
Exactly Eddie, the guy doesn't understand. Even if I were to drive the
facts at him even harder by showing data, not just from my car but from my friend or my parents, he would still say we're wrong. 90% of the audiphile must be wrong in his case then..... I'm really sick of trying to explain this to him, he's either stubborn or really stupid. "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... Luke Hague wrote: Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? Tom says 1) it cant happen! 2) if we think it does happen we dont know the defintion of bass and its really highs that get louder, not bass... ha ha ha What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. Think about how small a corvette is on the interior, I can barely get my fat ass into one, so just how much can the woofer box in the back actually be moved for the test??? We can scoot a box around in a normal car trunk several feet, in Toms Corvette piece of **** I would doubt there is enough room to move a box around more then a few inches... EVERYONE here can plainly see, but dont expect a reversal from Tom, he wrote a magazine article for the kiddies and it would be too big of an embarasment for him to admit he is wrong now.. (human nature I think) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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TOM, Your all WORDS.....
Lets SEE your data!!! When I have a claim I scan it and put it on the website for all to see.. Right now I dont have a car here with a woofer box and the installers in the shop have been too busy for me to push them outa the way to do some tests.. WE DID DO SOME tests for TeamROCS back when your crappy article came out several years ago... We used Foggys woofer box in his car and we posted the data WITH PICTURES on a web site back then. I was hoping Foggy or some of the other folks that may remember that test or might still have the pictures would happen by here, but I guess not. If I get some free time and the shops not too full I will do some documented tests with plenty of pictures and credible witnesses for you to interview. Your just not worth it to me to DROP EVERYTHING right this instant though... Kinda like the ACOUSTICS BOOK... I take a few days to produce it and your actin like I was a big liar when I said I owned the book. (GOTCHA THERE DIDNT I) ha ha ha Lets see the pictures of what your doing!!!!!!!!!!! Your all talk, how do we know your not just TALKING BULL**** when you tell us you made THREE MORE TESTS yesterday??? LETS SEE EM! Eddie Runner So far we have seen NOTHING from Tom except his words, I have made 3 web pages full of scans and quotes from REAL BOOKS! Nousaine wrote: Eddie Runner wrote: Luke Hague wrote: Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? Tom says 1) it cant happen! 2) if we think it does happen we dont know the defintion of bass and its really highs that get louder, not bass... ha ha ha What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. |
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Eddie Runner wrote:
Nousaine wrote: WE DID DO SOME tests for TeamROCS back when your crappy article came out several years ago... We used Foggys woofer box in his car and we posted the data WITH PICTURES on a web site back then. I was hoping Foggy or some of the other folks that may remember that test or might still have the pictures would happen by here, but I guess not. My article has been printed for all to see. The reason you have no data is because real data would not support your position. NO DATA????????????? Tom, MORE folks read my web site tech pages than YOUR CRAPPY MAGAZNE ARTICLE of several years ago..... MY ARTICLE has been printed for all to see! I have data there! Plus I have posted data on these three web pages, you have posted NOTHING except your lying words... ha ha http://installer.com/tech/aiming.html http://installer.com/tech/baranek.html http://www.installer.com/tech/standingwave.html http://installer.com/tech/freqandwave.html You the one that hasnt posted any data!! Eddie There's no experimental data there. |
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ITS WAY MORE than you have posted...
ha ha ha Nousaine wrote: Plus I have posted data on these three web pages, you have posted NOTHING except your lying words... ha ha http://installer.com/tech/aiming.html http://installer.com/tech/baranek.html http://www.installer.com/tech/standingwave.html http://installer.com/tech/freqandwave.html You the one that hasnt posted any data!! Eddie There's no experimental data there. |
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Tom, you keep saying you have tested this, and you say you are right because
you tested it, but yet you have not PROVEN anything because you have not SHOWN us those tests. For them to be valid tests we would need pictures, documentation, and WITNESSES to each stage of your test. Otherwise, your words are just that, words. Words of a man proven wrong consistantly by Eddie Runner. You say one thing, and argue it, and use obscure references, and then when Eddie shows you the error in your argument by posting actual pictures of the references you are using to prove your side, and showing that they support his argument, you immediately change your tune, and start arguing in another direction. You can talk (argue) all you want, but you have not proven anything, any further than everyone else here has by merely SAYING that they've had z results from doing x test. Dozens of people have already stated that they have had significant increases in bass output when turning their enclosures around, but you say it doesn't happen. Are you calling everyone liars, or just saying that they are hearing things? They aren't making it up, and they certainly didn't DREAM it (they weren't just hoping so much that it would increase that they imagined that it did, trust me), so how do you explain it? I guess maybe you define bass differently than the average consumer..... Let's make up our minds already. Although, I could care less what Tom Nuisance has to say, since we know the REALITY of the whole situation since we're the ones doing the real world testing every day, and we DO notice the increase when switching the box around. I know we're mainly focusing on sealed enclosures at this point, but I have a little story to provide as well, and I will share it in just a moment. My story involves ported enclosures though, and while it doesn't necessarily support Eddies (or anyone elses) view 100%, it certainly doesn't support Toms either. In my case the results varied depending upon what change I made, and proved that there was a difference between forward firing and rear firing, but that there were other variables to contend with. Here goes: Ok, I have a 1994 Honda Accord LX with no major interior modifications, other than I cut the back deck to port through. I started out with 3 JL 8w6's in a box with 2 4" ports of the appropriate length for this setup, and an Xtant 2140c running them (bridged), with the subs firing FORWARD into the back of the backseats, ports extended up so as to pass through the holes cut in the back deck. I drove around a while with it like this, and it sounded great, but I wanted a change, and wanted to show off the subs from the rear, so, I turned the enclosure around, and changed NOTHING else. I merely rotated the box so that the subs fired to the rear, and the ports still fired up through the back deck. The sound (bass response) was much more muddy, and the response was lacking greatly. Before I could play anything from about 33hz up and it was pretty responsive, after switching the box around so the subs fired back, I lost quite a bit of the low end response, and some of the higher frequencies were lacking as well. I think from that point I noticed a huge difference from 33-47hz, but from 48-63hz wasn't too bad, and from 64-100hz was sorta ****ty as well. So, I decided to experiment further with things, and I merely swapped the 2 4" ports out (removed the top of the enclosure) with a single slot port, still firing up through the back deck like before, which of course was in a slightly different location than the 2 4" ports (2 4" were about 6" apart centered across the back deck, the slot port was now dead center in the back deck). The response improved greatly with the subs firing to the rear, and everything was almost as good as when I had the subs firing forward with the 2 4" ports. So, out of curiosity I rotated the box back around so the subs fired forward into the back of the back seats. This muffled things again, and made the response very similar to the 2 4" port setup with subs firing back. So, I have not found it completely true that firing subs BACK entirely improves the "bass", but I HAVE, most DEFINITELY, found that changing the position of the enclosure, and the direction the subs fire, makes a HUGE difference in output, perceived or otherwise, and that there are often other factors (ports) involved that can also greatly affect the output. The car was only metered twice during the entire time these subs were installed, once with the 2 4" ports with subs forward (the best sounding setup), and once with the slot port with subs firing back (almost as good as the first setup), and the difference between them was - 2 4" ports with subs forward, 138db, slot port with subs firing back 132.3db. So, firing subs back in this case lowered my max spl, and the perceived loudness and QUALITY of the "bass" was quite a bit different. Shortly after I removed this setup completely, and slapped 6 JL 8w6's into a custom fiberglass enclosure in the spare tire well (well, extending up beyond the tire well of course), but never metered it, and shortly thereafter removed everything from the car to start other modifications, and have yet to reinstall anything. So, as you can see, in my case firing BACK did NOT really increase the bass at all, and would not prove either Tom or Eddies theory, but this is just ONE CAR and one particular enclosure design (well 2 if you count the change to the ports). This only shows that there IS a difference when enclosures are moved around. Anyone that argues otherwise is a complete fool. We've seen SPL vehicles that did one #, and simply sliding the enclosure back a couple of inches increase the output greatly (.5-3db, and while that doesn't sound like a lot, it is when we're talking 168+db already). I guess one of these years when I care enough about car audio again to actually install anything in one of my vehicles, like maybe my Range Rover, I'll do a little experiment on this very subject to see if we notice a difference. I would say Tom is definitely not "right" though.... Eddie is an annoying bugger, but he's usually spot on (or damn close) in his information, and he's certainly forgotten more about audio (or has he?!) than most of us will ever learn. Remember, he's not only one to STUDY everything he can get his hands on, he's also a hands-on type of guy that has applied most of these theories in his day to day business for over 30 years. He's an old MF! Did anyone mention he was a figure skater once in his life? hahaha "Nousaine" wrote in message ... Eddie Runner wrote: Luke Hague wrote: Why then if it's not the reason that Eddie and I both feel is the truth, how come it still increases bass when the subs are turned around? Tom says 1) it cant happen! 2) if we think it does happen we dont know the defintion of bass and its really highs that get louder, not bass... ha ha ha What else I have to add would be that I see you never took physics, and that if you used a corvette that it really wouldn't make a difference anyhow because there is little trunk space. My 2001 C5 has 25 cubic feet of hatch space which is larger and has more movement space than most trunks. But so what, according to Eddie all the room you need is enough to put the box in the car and close the boot. Then you can put it in backward. But, I've done a full analysis of the effect including max SPL at the drivers seat between 10 and 60 Hz with the enclosure face facing the frotn of the vehicle and with it facing the rear. Plus a set of full-band frequency response measurements with the enclosure faced either way. The ONLY thing that happens is that an interference effect at 188 Hz can be seen when the woofer face is facing the rear of the car. Think about how small a corvette is on the interior, I can barely get my fat ass into one, so just how much can the woofer box in the back actually be moved for the test??? 3 feet front to back and 4 feet side to side. We can scoot a box around in a normal car trunk several feet, in Toms Corvette piece of **** I would doubt there is enough room to move a box around more then a few inches... EVERYONE here can plainly see, but dont expect a reversal from Tom, he wrote a magazine article for the kiddies and it would be too big of an embarasment for him to admit he is wrong now.. (human nature I think) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ It's human nature for you to continue to posture but not put your claims to the test. You are simply very wrong which can be shown through a simple experiment with the variables controlled. This I have done before and I did it again in the past few days and the experimental evidence shows you are wrong. A single boundary cancellation will occur in a car but it never happens below the lowest axial mode of the vehicle interior space. In a compact car like an Integra, CRX, Civic, Spirit, Camaro, Corvette or even a full size X-Cab pick-up this cut-off point is 60 Hz. In a Pontiac Bonneville its a few Hz lower. In a full size van it may be as low as 45 Hz. But, no matter what car you're using this is related to the volume of the interior and it doesn't cancel deep bass and a single or mulitple boundary cancellation always occurs at frequencies above the lowest axial mode. |
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Dozens of people get abducted by Aliens everyday too. Many people have
seen BigFoot. Many people believe that hot water freezes faster than cold water. So what? So, we've seen evidence of at least one of these things, what does that have to do with this topic? lol In my explanation I define low bass as 10-62 Hz. The subwoofer region. Some will consider anything up to 200 Hz as bass. That's fine with me as long as you specify the frequencies of interest. I think the majority of people define bass from 120hz and below (some would probably consider 200hz and down though, as you mentioned). Also your SPL readings mentioned are pretty much frequency independent. A wide-open Sound Level Meter reading could simply be encompassing any frequencies; they are not frequency specific unless the excitation stimulus is. For example when I test maximum SPL of a woofer system in the car I use a 6.5-cycle ramped sine burst at 1/3 octave preferred frequencies and measure both distortion and SPL at those specific frequencies. When I test SPL I typically test using a single tone, and repeat the same tone at the same volume (MAX) for each test, so as not to have anything else taint the results. I build and compete in SPL competitions, and we have definitely seen increases by moving the enclosures around, but have no reason to sit and document every aspect of it (until now, but of course things have died in Arizona, so I have not been working on anything in quite some time). One of these days I might break out one of my vehicles and do a couple of controlled tests just to satisfy you though, but by the time I get around to it this thread will probably be long forgotten. It doesn't really matter though since 99% of those responding have stated that they DID, and DO notice a difference when flipping the box around, and that is ALL that matters really, to them, and to myself. If there is a perceived increase, and the sound is more enjoyable to them, that's all that matters. Whether you think it is true or not, it is a FACT that it happens. If you want to use examples, I can also use the example of my 86.5 nissan with solid side shell, walk-through, with 2 18's in it. With subs halfway back in the bed firing forward it ROCKED, but I noticed an increase simply by moving the subs further back in the bed. If I had them turned around facing the rear, but centered in the bed, it would TWANG a bit more on the outside (tailgate would vibrate) but still had a lot of output. If I slid the enclosure back, it got louder (or at least it appeared to, but of course we never metered it, this was back in the late 80's early 90's and I never cared about metering anything). If we had the enclosure up near the front of the bed, with the subs firing forward, it sounded ok, and hit pretty good, but not as much as with the subs firing back, but enclosure in the same position (front of bed). It was just one of those strange things that happens. We also had an 89 Prelude with a bandpass enclosure, firing forward into the seat, and it didn't sound nearly as loud, or as good as when the port fired to the rear, or towards any corner. We took a customers 91 cutlass supreme that had an enclosure with 2 12's firing into the back seat, and flipped the enclosure around and he noticed an increase in the bass output as well. We did NOT tell the customer we were changing anything, but he ASKED what we did because it sounded louder to him. I told him I was just screwing around with his system and flipped the box around to see how it'd sound. His trunk flexed a lot more, so we ended up having to dynamat the hell out of it, but he was much more happy with the enclosure that way, and refused to switch it back (I wanted to because it sounded like ass outside the vehicle with it that way). My dads olds cutlass supreme with 2 Boston Pro 10's running off an RF 200ix sounded pretty good with subs firing forward into the rear seat area, and ok with them firing up, but when we rotated the box so it fired towards the back it increased the output greatly, and he noticed it, because he asked me to change whatever it was I did because it was then TOO MUCH for his tastes. Didn't change anything else except rotate the enclosure. Trust me, it happens, but you are so caught up in only performing tests and looking at meters, and #'s, that you can't, or WON'T see what goes on in the REAL WORLD of installation. Your tests show that there is a difference, in your car, albeit a small amount, but that is not representative of ALL vehicles, or all listening choices. Everyone is different, and a mic cannot pick up differences that the human BODY can (trust me, it's not all in the SOUND here, it's in the FEEL as well with most people). Have you not ever had a system that tickled your ears with it setup one way, but you change the position of the box and it now hurt your chest or you felt it in your stomach more than in your ears? I know I have, and I bet 100's of others in this newsgroup have too. |
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Ok I guess it is time to voice in on the subject.
1. Just because the Interior volume of the Covette is the same is an integ hatch doesn't mean it shares the same acoustical properties. Fiberglass body, differents angles in the trunk space, ect ect ect effect this too, its not like we are bouncing signal off of a solid wall. 2. when it comes to what sounds good (not talking about spl/sq comps or anything else) the best meter I am equiped wiith is my ears. Make a system run a flat line on an RTA and see what you think it sounds like.. considering a flat RTA would be considered perfect in many cases, but most would agree that it sounds like ****, and this goes into the same principal. I hear more bass (and yes this is using a 60 hz test tone) in my system with the subs firing rearward than when they fire frontward, and the SPL tests I have done go to prove this. I also Notice more bass when I don't have my equipment for work in my trunk, which effectively forms a big ass wall acrossed the trunk. Maybe I will have to go down to the local shop and get a scope and an rta and all that other fancy **** out just to help prove what we all know... Moving the sub box can cause noticeable differences in bass output. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Fat *******" wrote: Tom, you keep saying you have tested this, and you say you are right because you tested it, but yet you have not PROVEN anything because you have not SHOWN us those tests. For them to be valid tests we would need pictures, documentation, and WITNESSES to each stage of your test. Otherwise, your words are just that, words. So what is Eddie's argument except words. Its his claim. I see no data, no pictures, no witnessess, noreplication. I simply conducted a short experiment and found different results. Indeed even you posted something below that is in disagreement with his claim. Words of a man proven wrong consistantly by Eddie Runner. You say one thing, and argue it, and use obscure references, and then when Eddie shows you the error in your argument by posting actual pictures of the references you are using to prove your side, and showing that they support his argument, you immediately change your tune, and start arguing in another direction. Actually the pictures from Baranek didn't support Eddies argument. You can talk (argue) all you want, but you have not proven anything, any further than everyone else here has by merely SAYING that they've had z results from doing x test. Dozens of people have already stated that they have had significant increases in bass output when turning their enclosures around, but you say it doesn't happen. Are you calling everyone liars, or just saying that they are hearing things? They aren't making it up, and they certainly didn't DREAM it (they weren't just hoping so much that it would increase that they imagined that it did, trust me), so how do you explain it? I guess maybe you define bass differently than the average consumer..... Dozens of people get abducted by Aliens everyday too. Many people have seen BigFoot. Many people believe that hot water freezes faster than cold water. So what? In my explanation I define low bass as 10-62 Hz. The subwoofer region. Some will consider anything up to 200 Hz as bass. That's fine with me as long as you specify the frequencies of interest. Let's make up our minds already. Although, I could care less what Tom Nuisance has to say Next time supply some pictures and witnesses to verify your anecdote But no one has to make up their minds. No one has supplied any data that reversing the woofer direction alone changes anything below the lowest axial mode in a car. Also your SPL readings mentioned are pretty much frequency independent. A wide-open Sound Level Meter reading could simply be encompassing any frequencies; they are not frequency specific unless the excitation stimulus is. For example when I test maximum SPL of a woofer system in the car I use a 6.5-cycle ramped sine burst at 1/3 octave preferred frequencies and measure both distortion and SPL at those specific frequencies. |
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define supra-bass frequencys... as I said I used a 60 hz test tone..
assuming the tone was clear.. then 60 hz should be the only frequency that is being produced, which is the tone you are claiming this does not happen at. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Lex" wrote: Ok I guess it is time to voice in on the subject. 1. Just because the Interior volume of the Covette is the same is an integ hatch doesn't mean it shares the same acoustical properties. Fiberglass body, differents angles in the trunk space, ect ect ect effect this too, its not like we are bouncing signal off of a solid wall. Corvette's have a steel uni-body. So the internal acoustics are quite similar to other compact cars. The reason I know this is I've had a chance to review the transfer functions of 150 vehicles measured by an auto company AND I've owned both a Corvette and an Integra. 2. when it comes to what sounds good (not talking about spl/sq comps or anything else) the best meter I am equiped wiith is my ears. Make a system run a flat line on an RTA and see what you think it sounds like.. considering a flat RTA would be considered perfect in many cases, but most would agree that it sounds like ****, and this goes into the same principal. Sure; this is a known deal. If you EQ a speaker flat in its direct field it will show a gradually falling response measured in the far-field or listening position. We know this and it doesn't affect the issue here. I hear more bass (and yes this is using a 60 hz test tone) in my system with the subs firing rearward than when they fire frontward, and the SPL tests I have done go to prove this. Data please. I also Notice more bass when I don't have my equipment for work in my trunk, which effectively forms a big ass wall acrossed the trunk. Maybe I will have to go down to the local shop and get a scope and an rta and all that other fancy **** out just to help prove what we all know... Moving the sub box can cause noticeable differences in bass output. Only at supra-bass frequences. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Fat *******" wrote: Tom, you keep saying you have tested this, and you say you are right because you tested it, but yet you have not PROVEN anything because you have not SHOWN us those tests. For them to be valid tests we would need pictures, documentation, and WITNESSES to each stage of your test. Otherwise, your words are just that, words. So what is Eddie's argument except words. Its his claim. I see no data, no pictures, no witnessess, noreplication. I simply conducted a short experiment and found different results. Indeed even you posted something below that is in disagreement with his claim. Words of a man proven wrong consistantly by Eddie Runner. You say one thing, and argue it, and use obscure references, and then when Eddie shows you the error in your argument by posting actual pictures of the references you are using to prove your side, and showing that they support his argument, you immediately change your tune, and start arguing in another direction. Actually the pictures from Baranek didn't support Eddies argument. You can talk (argue) all you want, but you have not proven anything, any further than everyone else here has by merely SAYING that they've had z results from doing x test. Dozens of people have already stated that they have had significant increases in bass output when turning their enclosures around, but you say it doesn't happen. Are you calling everyone liars, or just saying that they are hearing things? They aren't making it up, and they certainly didn't DREAM it (they weren't just hoping so much that it would increase that they imagined that it did, trust me), so how do you explain it? I guess maybe you define bass differently than the average consumer..... Dozens of people get abducted by Aliens everyday too. Many people have seen BigFoot. Many people believe that hot water freezes faster than cold water. So what? In my explanation I define low bass as 10-62 Hz. The subwoofer region. Some will consider anything up to 200 Hz as bass. That's fine with me as long as you specify the frequencies of interest. Let's make up our minds already. Although, I could care less what Tom Nuisance has to say Next time supply some pictures and witnesses to verify your anecdote But no one has to make up their minds. No one has supplied any data that reversing the woofer direction alone changes anything below the lowest axial mode in a car. Also your SPL readings mentioned are pretty much frequency independent. A wide-open Sound Level Meter reading could simply be encompassing any frequencies; they are not frequency specific unless the excitation stimulus is. For example when I test maximum SPL of a woofer system in the car I use a 6.5-cycle ramped sine burst at 1/3 octave preferred frequencies and measure both distortion and SPL at those specific frequencies. Isn't it interesting that neither this poster nor Eddie has anything BUT anecdote to bolster their position? |
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define supra-bass frequencys... as I said I used a 60 hz test tone..
assuming the tone was clear.. then 60 hz should be the only frequency that is being produced, which is the tone you are claiming this does not happen at. Data please. You first Insane, urm uh Nousaine. |
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So, we've seen evidence of at least one of these things, what does that
have to do with this topic? lol Which one "of those things?" Aliens of course.... j/k The hot water freezing faster than cold. We've seen experiments on this, and it is true. Or at least it CAN BE, in the tests we've seen. Still has nothing to do with this topic. lol So you have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support your conjecture. I figured as much. Tom, you continue to tell everyone else that they have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but yet your evidence is exactly the same. You are merely TELLING US that you did these tests, but have not PROVEN them to us, so what's to say you are doing anything more than we are? What is to say you aren't LIEING (as Eddie would spell it) to us just to protect your reputation? Well if that's true why don't I see any contradictory evidence? multiple people reporting that they have experienced it bears more weight with me as "contradictory evidence" than YOU merely saying it can't be true. You have not provided one shred of evidence to contradict what everyone else says. You gave #'s, but you didn't SHOW any pics or evidence of such. At least Eddie has posted page after page of information to contradict your statements. What makes your word any better than the people that have commented on the subject in this thread? NOTHING. You may THINK your word is better because you are Mr. Magazine, but that doesn't sway me at all. I'm not impressed with you just because you write for a magazine. I know hundreds of people that write for these rags, and I can say that a large percentage of them are biased about what they write, and quite often "stretch" the truth to suit their advertisers, or what their bosses want. Many of them are just not bright enough to carry on a conversation with toast, let alone write for the magazines they write for.... Not saying you fit that category, so don't think that was aimed at you. If 10 or more people say they've experienced it, and only you say it doesn't happen, who is right? I think I'd take the opinions of the MAJORITY over the one that doesn't agree. And your recount is simply an anecdote. There are plenty of those describing alien abductions in great detail too. I don't see a majority of people saying they've been abducted by aliens, while a minority say it can't happen, so your "anecdote" doesn't quite jive here. In this subject I see the majority ruling that there IS a noticable difference when switching the box around, and only ONE person stating that it doesn't happen, and can't happen. So thousands of people are wrong, while one is right? HAHAHA yeah, I'll believe that one. OK; at what frequencies? "Louder" is a pretty wide term. I can turn an un lowpassed woofer arounf facing the driver and it will sound "louder" simply because it has more high frequencies; IOW it "is" louder but not at bass frequencies. Does it matter? Let's use an example of an SPL vehicle that has NO mid/high frequency transducers at all. This person does a sweep to see where their peak frequency is, and then they play only that tone during BURPS to get their max SPL #. They then decide they want to try to increase the output so they simply move the enclosure around a little bit in hopes it makes a difference, and sure enough, they burp the same frequency, using the same exact disc, same track, etc., using the same exact system settings (volume maxed out, gains adjusted earlier and never touched again during subsequent tests, same head unit, same temperature, same everything except the sub box has been moved), and they have since increase their output by .5-3db. They also HEAR (or think they hear) a noticable difference (which is corroberated by their higher #'s)? Does this support YOUR theory that it doesn't happen? Ask anyone that has ever competed in SPL competitions if they've tried even the most minor little things and either gained, or lost output, and I can promise you they will tell you that they HAVE seen/heard it. This is the real world Tom, not some laboratory experiment. If I can find time, and the energy (it's too f'n hot here in AZ right now to be outside), I'll try to setup one of my vehicles with a single amp, running one of my enclosures, NO frequencies above 100hz, and will not touch anything other than the enclosure to change its position, and try to get some readings for you. However, since I sold my LinearX to a buddy in California (who has also experienced the same "phenomenon" in his SPL van, that you say cannot happen), I will have to find someone else with a meter to use. I will use the same disc, and the same track each time so as to satisfy you, and we'll see if there is NO INCREASE in output. Maybe I can get a buddy of mine to bring his meter by to do some quick tests for you one of these days. If I wasn't in the process of rebuilding/swapping an engine in my Range Rover, I'd have a lot more time on my hands, but right now is a bad time to battle you with printed data, and I'll admit that much. This gives you time to create a bunch of pics, and charts, and other information to post for comparison, and to support YOUR theory, instead of just "telling us" that your theory is correct. "He noticed" is a pretty imprecise term. On what material; under what conditions? It's pretty easy to play the same music segment twice to people and get them to describe 'differences' in great detail. Same disc, same track, same everything. However, the difference in TIME is a factor that could muddle the data. Because he had listened to it 45 minutes earlier, and then listened again when he returned, there was enough time lost in between that he may not "remember" how loud it was before, but he drove around with the same car, and same system for months before this, and was always playing the same crap (these are youngsters we're talking about here) over and over, so I think he'd be able to tell if there was some difference with his system before and after. "Louder"???? What does that have to do with bass? I can make any system sound 'louder' by turning up the volume control. The volume knob was never in question in any of these cases. When you MAX the volume there is no variation from one test to another. Think about it. If nothing else changed, then why did he notice a difference? Hmmm, maybe because there WAS ONE? Or maybe I hypnotised him without knowing it, into thinking it was louder so that I'd continue to get all his business in the future. Maybe that's it. I told him I was just screwing around with his system and flipped the box around to see how it'd sound. His trunk flexed a lot more, so we ended up having to dynamat the hell out of it, but he was much more happy with the enclosure that way, and refused to switch it back (I wanted to because it sounded like ass outside the vehicle with it that way). Why would anyone care how it sounded outside the vehicle; except the neighbors? I guess you don't know any teenagers, and you were never one yourself..... But of course you didn't specify the crossover frequency, the levels, the actual frequency response or use any listening bias controls. Again its like "old-timers memory" which slowly gets worse over time until that fateful day when it improves so much that the subject becomes able to 'remember' stuff that didn't actually happen Well, it's not alzheimers I assure you. I'm only 33, and the memory is still pretty sharp. What were we talking about again? Seriously though, when you listen to the exact same tracks on the exact same discs, all the damn time, and you always have the volume set to exactly the same # (or maxed out in the case of the kids mentioned earlier, or any of my SPL vehicles), and nothing else changed (no eq's involved, no crossovers adjusted at any time, NOTHING), then I'd say it's pretty obvious where the change occurs. Of course, BUT neither you or Eddie has delivered any contrary evidence. You both have conjecture but no data. Everyone has provided contrary evidence that is just as strong as yours. You use your WORDS, and so do we. You have not posted any EVIDENCE of anything Tom, that is my point. You SAY you have it, but there has been no PROOF. Your word is not good enough to me, just as mine or Eddies, or the dozens of others that have posted on this and the other threads here, are not good enough for you. However, if there are 10 people saying yes, and only one saying no, I think I'll go with the majority vote..... Extreme low bass is ALL feel. Indeed, and these people that have reported that they notice a difference, probably FELT something, but maybe they heard it too. Maybe that is your whole argument really... You can't "hear" the difference as everyone has been saying, but had they said we FEEL the difference, maybe you'd have responded differently. lol (note: I was kidding, there is no doubt you'd argue it either way). No. I set up my systems optimally from the start. In a car it's easy to get a system that you can 'feel.' It's much harder to get one that is sonically balanced through the entire spectrum. Optimally. In your opinion, yes, but optimal for you is not optimal to Roy the Ricer, or Bob the Bassfreak, or Ted the Tuner, or Scott the skater... Remember, most of the respondants here are the type that are TRYING to get more BASS that they can "hear" or FEEL (if you prefer), and thus they actually try switching their enclosures around, and every other little thing they can think of to try and get more output, and every one of them so far has stated that they DO notice a difference, whether you believe it or not. Is this mass hysteria or something? "Aiming" woofers only has an effect at 50 Hz and above in any car Hmm, earlier it was above 60hz and only noticable at 188hz (I think that's what I saw, but I haven't read the ENTIRE thread, it's too much BS to trudge through). Make up your mind. If there is a difference at 50hz and up, then you should be ready to admit that everyone that says they noticed a difference, really HAS! Most people consider "louder bass" anything from about 120hz and down (some may only consider 100hz and down, others maybe 80hz and down, but the point stands. There are many levels between 50hz and 120hz that apparently DO make a difference). Which is it Tom, is it not possible, or is it possible, to hear a difference? I've ever used; these include an Aerostar, Me too. A 96 Aerostar with a single 10" in a sealed enclosure under the second row of seats, and eventually moved to the 3rd row, and then back. We tried lots of locations for that one sub, and they all made noticable differences to everyone involved. Personally I liked it best with it located under the 2nd row of seats off to the driver side. It had the best sound in that location in my opinion. I never had the urge to meter it, or get any #'s off of it (it wasn't gonna turn any significant #'s anyway, it was just to add a touch of low end for that system). I've done THOUSANDS of installations, and many of them had little subtle changes to the enclosure locations that were noticable in some way, be it better sound, louder, quieter, whatever. Why would a normal every day installer bother with testing every single vehicle they work on? We aren't writing articles for any rag, nor do we care to waste time on all the little BS details and #'s that people like you want to waste time with, because we can HEAR our differences, and we know what we LIKE, so we just stick with that. I know I have, and I bet 100's of others in this newsgroup have too. Sure but they're all just anecdotes. I have numbers. Yeah, I have a # too, it's right between my index finger and my ring finger, care to count it? Seriously though, you haven't given us anything more than anecdotal evidence either in my opinion. You TELL US you have the data, but we hvaen't SEEN the data. There IS a difference. I know, you are used to just TELLING people what you want them to hear, and expect nobody to question it, since you are a writer in a well known magazine, and nobody is to question the greatness of such a magazine. BAH. |
#79
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Subwoofer direction
Eddie is right
-- sl2perfect ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online! View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=149062 |
#80
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Subwoofer direction
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