Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

On 15 Aug 2004 21:35:10 -0700, (Nat) wrote:

Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.


Is it the recording, or is it the drummer?

Is he "laying down tracks" in isolation, or playing as part of a
musical performance? Perhaps he just isn't leaving room for other
instruments.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Nat wrote:
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks.

Hell, I use two tracks for the whole orchestra half the time. I don't
get the need for ukubillion drum submixes. Either the drums sound good
and are appropriate for the mix or they aren't.

Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

To some extent you can deal with that sort of thing with EQ, but my
suggestion is to keep trying, and also to try and listen to some
commercial recording and JUST listen to the drums and how the drums
fall into the mix. Get practice at isolating the different tracks
in your head.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Nat" wrote in message
m...
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness.

Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago!

The cleverest method I ever ran into for an 8 track recording of a rock band
was overhead, rack toms and kick on one track and snare and floor tom mikes
on another. This lets you use a combination of eq. and balance between the
two tracks to achieve a great mono drum sound.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago!

I'll tell you what, google groups is a luxury. Wow. I really
appreciate all the advice -- thanks so much for the replies. My
drummer and I are going into a marathon session this weekend and I
hope to incorporate a lot of your suggestions.

This album is only my second, and it's my first time tackling drums,
but then even imperfectly recorded acoustic drums knock the socks of
that drum machine I used last time.

Lucky for me, I have a technically excellent drummer playing with me,
and he's nice enough not to have killed me yet for all my retries. So
I have some faith...

Thanks again.

Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago!

I'll tell you what, google groups is a luxury. Wow. I really
appreciate all the advice -- thanks so much for the replies. My
drummer and I are going into a marathon session this weekend and I
hope to incorporate a lot of your suggestions.

This album is only my second, and it's my first time tackling drums,
but then even imperfectly recorded acoustic drums knock the socks of
that drum machine I used last time.

Lucky for me, I have a technically excellent drummer playing with me,
and he's nice enough not to have killed me yet for all my retries. So
I have some faith...

Thanks again.

I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space
then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center.
and mix down to 2 tracks
almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right.

"playonATcomcast.net" wrote in message
...
With a decent drummer and a reasonable room, you can get a great drum
sound with one overhead and a kick. I was messing around with this
just the other day... I had four mics set up, but when I played it
back with just the OH and the kick alone, it sounded great. The thing
is that the drummer has to be able to balance the kit with how he
plays it.

Al

On 15 Aug 2004 21:35:10 -0700, (Nat) wrote:

Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz
wrote:

I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space
then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center.
and mix down to 2 tracks
almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right.


Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you
may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is
making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your
mix, depending obviously on what you get.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

Nat wrote:
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

I've had success with an A-B pair of omni's in front of the drum kit,
placed at the height of the top of kick drum. It needs a good, large
room though.

Stig Erik Tangen

"david" wrote in message
...
In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz
wrote:

I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space
then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center.
and mix down to 2 tracks
almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right.


Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you
may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is
making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your
mix, depending obviously on what you get.


You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing
in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3
and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in
from there.

Doug

I never tried that. I like that idea and I'm looking forward to testing it out.


"Doug Schultz" wrote in message news:SdKUc.141902$gE.9298@pd7tw3no...
"david" wrote in message
...
In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz
wrote:

I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space
then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center.
and mix down to 2 tracks
almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right.


Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you
may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is
making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your
mix, depending obviously on what you get.


You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing
in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3
and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in
from there.

Doug

I never tried that. I like that idea and I'm looking forward to testing it out.


"Doug Schultz" wrote in message news:SdKUc.141902$gE.9298@pd7tw3no...
"david" wrote in message
...
In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz
wrote:

I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space
then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center.
and mix down to 2 tracks
almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right.


Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you
may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is
making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your
mix, depending obviously on what you get.


You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing
in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3
and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in
from there.

Doug

(Nat) wrote in message om...
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

Nat, are you looking for ways to record the entire kit with 2 mics,
or, are you trying to improve the stereo submix of drums that you're
forced to do because you only have 8 tracks? I'm guessing it's the
latter of the 2. One thing someone else touched on is getting a sense
of how the drums sit with other instrumentation, even if just scratch
tracks, in the mix. I mic drums with 3 mics and submix to a mono
track, and I have found out the hard way that setting levels to what
sounds like a 'real" kit when bouncing will leave your track kick shy
and snare shy at mixdown. So I usually make the kick and snare a
*little* louder in the bounce, to where it almost seems too loud, so
that they don't disappear after I add 6 guitars, tambourine, handclaps
and vocals!

Nat, are you looking for ways to record the entire kit with 2 mics,
or, are you trying to improve the stereo submix of drums that you're
forced to do because you only have 8 tracks? I'm guessing it's the
latter of the 2. One thing someone else touched on is getting a sense
of how the drums sit with other instrumentation, even if just scratch
tracks, in the mix. I mic drums with 3 mics and submix to a mono
track, and I have found out the hard way that setting levels to what
sounds like a 'real" kit when bouncing will leave your track kick shy
and snare shy at mixdown. So I usually make the kick and snare a
*little* louder in the bounce, to where it almost seems too loud, so
that they don't disappear after I add 6 guitars, tambourine, handclaps
and vocals!

Yeah, it's the latter. I understand that a lot of songs are recorded
starting with the drums, but I -- for better and worse -- have been
recording drums lately after I have other tracks down... I think my
drummer prefers it, and it has worked out so far. He's got good,
strict, click-track timing, so there's not too many timing problems
for me doing it that way. So, as of late, I actually have mixed most
of my drums in the context of the song itself. In the past, I've had
problems with the snare being too quiet in the mix, and I wonder now
if I was just working for a perfect set sound at the time without
hearing it as part of the mix as a whole.

it depends on the style of music. many symphonic recordings are made
with just two mics covering 85 people. old-school big band probably
had one mic hung over the drummer and the rest was caught incidentally
in the other mics.

ringo star, early days, a single coles mic as an overhead, and a kick
drum mic (i think a fet).

if you're doing modern heavy metal, you need lots of mics, because the
music likes that crisp separation.

but you could do a decent job with two mics. just make sure they are
two good mics! set the first mic about 6 feet over the drummers head
and about 8 feet in front of him. have him play loud. put the second
mic on the kick drum.

then during mixdown, put a lot of compression on the overhead mic.
that will suck up all the low sounds so your tom fills will be heard.
also, when you mic futher back like this, the kit will even out
volume wise.

you need a room with at least a 12 foot ceiling do do this justice,
or your ceiling will be giving you lame sonic bounce in a bad way into
the distant mic.

Using 3 mics gives you John Bonham from Led Zepplin (a pair of spaced
u87s up and in front, and a kick drum mic). nobody can say he had bad
drum sounds.

lots of 60's drums used 2 or three mics. just make sure the
overhead(s) is at least a number of feet away and then compress the
hell out of it. you'll get that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot
referred to in the 1992 campaigns.

On 19 Aug 2004 19:27:00 -0700, (Nat) wrote:

So, as of late, I actually have mixed most
of my drums in the context of the song itself. In the past, I've had
problems with the snare being too quiet in the mix, and I wonder now
if I was just working for a perfect set sound at the time without
hearing it as part of the mix as a whole.

Careful! That's thinking like a musician. They'll kick you out of
the Recording Engineers' Guild :-)

"xy" wrote in message
om...
... just make sure the
overhead(s) is at least a number of feet away and then compress the
hell out of it. you'll get that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot
referred to in the 1992 campaigns.

I never saw anybody compress an overhead during the '60s. Sometimes the
whole drum track might get compressed in the mix because of a balance
problem but it is totally mythology that we used to compress drums as SOP.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

but you could do a decent job with two mics. just make sure they are
two good mics! set the first mic about 6 feet over the drummers head
and about 8 feet in front of him. have him play loud. put the second
mic on the kick drum.

Sadly, I'm always forced to tune out when people say "good mics." I
gotta do everything with my 57s and 58s. It's kinda fun, pretty
impossible. On many instruments and vocs I mic model, which is
cheating and probably pretty transparent, but it makes me feel like a
regular princess, changing from fancy mic to fancy mic at will.

I've been recording my band with just an AKG stereo microphone lately.
I think it has a pair of CK-1 cardioid capsules, in an XY
configuration. I'm reallu liking it. I'm actually recording the whole
band with it. The thing I love about this approach is that it
completely removes the recording equipment from the recording process.
You just set up the mike, hit record, and start playing. If it doesn't
sound right, you don't mess with the microphone or the preamp or the
recorder, you mess with your instruments and your bandmates and perhaps
the room. Instead of pushing faders up and down, you push musicians
around to get the balance you need. Instead of using EQ on a drum
track, you tune the drum.

ulysses


In article , Nat
wrote:

Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

Nat wrote:

Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting.

Use fewer mics.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

In article , Nat
wrote:

Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the
machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good
at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But
for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much
ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust
anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging
my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up
again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that
the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy.

Back in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of us tracking drums with ever
more mics. My record was 22 on a metal record; top and bottom mics on
the toms (polarity flipped) with shell triggers keying gates etc.
Looking back it all seems absurd. My favorite drum recordings continue
to be a 2-3 mics in a nice room with high ceilings and of course a
great player. I get the impression you are recording in a small room.
Here is where close and multiple micing gets really ugly on anything
heavier than some light brush work. My personal feeling about this kind
of enviornment is to embrace it for what it is. A single radioshack PZM
on the wall (any wall for that matter) will give you a fat and honest
sound. It will sound distinct, organic and no one will confuse it with
a machine. Try it and let your drummer hear it. He may want to adjust
his dynamics but you may both be surprised. Then again it all depends
on the song along with countless other variables. Just keep trying and
dont rule anything out! There are no rules. Some of those mega-mic
setups in the 90s actually worked on occasion;-)

Sonicanuck wrote:

Back in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of us tracking drums with ever
more mics. My record was 22 on a metal record; top and bottom mics on
the toms (polarity flipped) with shell triggers keying gates etc.
Looking back it all seems absurd. My favorite drum recordings continue
to be a 2-3 mics in a nice room with high ceilings and of course a
great player. I get the impression you are recording in a small room.
Here is where close and multiple micing gets really ugly on anything
heavier than some light brush work. My personal feeling about this kind
of enviornment is to embrace it for what it is. A single radioshack PZM
on the wall (any wall for that matter) will give you a fat and honest
sound. It will sound distinct, organic and no one will confuse it with
a machine. Try it and let your drummer hear it. He may want to adjust
his dynamics but you may both be surprised. Then again it all depends
on the song along with countless other variables. Just keep trying and
dont rule anything out! There are no rules. Some of those mega-mic
setups in the 90s actually worked on occasion;-)

I'm with you there. One of the cleanest drum recordings I've ever
worked with was done in an 8x12 room with a 10' ceiling, assorted cheap
sound deadening (read: cardboard egg cartons on parts of the walls),
with a D112 on the kick, SM-58 on the snare, and a pair of RS PZMs, each
attached to a 2x2' piece of plywood and those arranged in a V shape,
hung about 4' above the drums, and panned hard left and right.

The balance of the toms and overheads was near-perfect and the stereo
image on cymbal washes and tom rolls was amazing. The 58 was blended in
just enough to add some 'snap' and body to the snare.

I've recently done an album with the same drummer (much newer and
better-maintained kit, fortunately) in which we used 11 mics on the kit
- double kicks, snare, one each for three rack toms and a floor tom, one
each for hat and ride, and an overhead pair. I can't say that the drums
turned out significantly better... sure there's more control, but
sometimes the overabundance of sources just leads to cancellation and
other problems too.


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