Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Where to find mic splitter transformers?
I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the
other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? TIA Edwin |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Edwin Hurwitz wrote:
I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). You want high-Z to low-Z, or do you want dual secondaries for multiple isos? Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? Jensen will sell direct as cheaply as anyone. Lundahl makes some good transformers although I don't think their high ratio stuff is as clean as the Jensens. Same goes for Lundahls. If you can do low ratios, Tamura actually makes some workable stuff, but now you're talking a different splitter configuration. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Edwin Hurwitz" wrote ...
I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? Dunno that you can buy them anywhere else but direct? Other transformer manufacturers that may offer mic splitter products... http://www.cinemag.biz/index.html http://www.lundahl.se/ http://www.sescom.com/ http://www.sowter.co.uk/ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Edwin Hurwitz wrote: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Edwin Hurwitz wrote: I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). You want high-Z to low-Z, or do you want dual secondaries for multiple isos? Low Z to low Z, I would imagine. Anything going into it would be a mic or an instrument with a DI. I want to be able to send it to my mic pres without affecting or being affected by the PA for live recording. Okay, if you want to do this, you know first of all that you're going to take a sonic hit on the iso outputs, and secondly you're going to be paying a lot more for transformers than you do with dual secondaries. On the other hand, it makes phantom power management a lot easier. I should add that if at all possible you want to use the direct outputs for the recording rig and the isos for the PA, for that reason. If you are not running the PA, though, this can cause social problems. Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? Jensen will sell direct as cheaply as anyone. Lundahl makes some good transformers although I don't think their high ratio stuff is as clean as the Jensens. Same goes for Lundahls. If you can do low ratios, Tamura actually makes some workable stuff, but now you're talking a different splitter configuration. As far as I can figure, it would be a 1:1 ratio, but I am no expert on transformers. No, you want a very high ratio if you are using a bridging splitter, because you don't want the second output to load down the microphone. This tends to make the transformers very expensive. Take a look at the numbers on the transformers Jensen recommends for bridging splitters. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Scott, do these transformers (the two-secondary DXF) meet your
criterion? They're about half the cost of Jensens) http://www.rapco.com/catalog/default...info1.htm&ID=9 ---------------- Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Edwin Hurwitz wrote: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Edwin Hurwitz wrote: I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). You want high-Z to low-Z, or do you want dual secondaries for multiple isos? Low Z to low Z, I would imagine. Anything going into it would be a mic or an instrument with a DI. I want to be able to send it to my mic pres without affecting or being affected by the PA for live recording. Okay, if you want to do this, you know first of all that you're going to take a sonic hit on the iso outputs, and secondly you're going to be paying a lot more for transformers than you do with dual secondaries. On the other hand, it makes phantom power management a lot easier. I should add that if at all possible you want to use the direct outputs for the recording rig and the isos for the PA, for that reason. If you are not running the PA, though, this can cause social problems. Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? Jensen will sell direct as cheaply as anyone. Lundahl makes some good transformers although I don't think their high ratio stuff is as clean as the Jensens. Same goes for Lundahls. If you can do low ratios, Tamura actually makes some workable stuff, but now you're talking a different splitter configuration. As far as I can figure, it would be a 1:1 ratio, but I am no expert on transformers. No, you want a very high ratio if you are using a bridging splitter, because you don't want the second output to load down the microphone. This tends to make the transformers very expensive. Take a look at the numbers on the transformers Jensen recommends for bridging splitters. --scott |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Don Richardson wrote:
Scott, do these transformers (the two-secondary DXF) meet your criterion? They're about half the cost of Jensens) http://www.rapco.com/catalog/default...info1.htm&ID=9 Look at the ratio. The DXF is a 1:1:1 type transformer. So if you use it, you get two isolated splits, but you have to deal with external phantom power. If you want to bridge, you have to use the DBT in order not to change the impedance the mike sees too much. This means you have to deal with that 24 dB drop in the process and you will find also that the top end response isn't what you might like. But, you don't have to deal with external phantom power. All of the Rapcos are very overpriced for what they are... I suspect they are rebadged Japanese transformers. But if you keep levels down and don't expect wonderful low end extension you will probably be fine with them. The 1:1:1 types are much easier to make than the high ratio ones, and should be cheaper. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"Edwin Hurwitz" wrote in message
I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? If money is really a consideration, just drive the second mixer from the direct outs or inserts of the first. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
If you want Jensen, get them direct. For the big 24-48 ch jobs, I use
Rapco, Whirlwind or Horizon. They will all furnish a complete wired box or panel as well. There are hundreds of thousands of them in use, because they cost almost a tenth of Jensen or other high end product. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:44:43 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Edwin Hurwitz" wrote in message I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? If money is really a consideration, just drive the second mixer from the direct outs or inserts of the first. And if you really need isolation between the rigs, buy a bunch of 1:1 line-level transformers to isolate the second mixer. Because we're on RAP, can I assume that the split is for recording? I've had acceptable (to my clients) results by connecting the direct outputs from an A&H GL-2200 to the inputs of an Alesis HD24. The levels match up nicely. Bonus: you get a 24-channel meter bridge. If you need to run it more than a few meters, or the recorder is on a different electrical circuit (like a UPS, which I STRONGLY recommend), you may want those 1:1 isolating transformers. Mike T. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
"Mike T." wrote in message
news On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:44:43 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Edwin Hurwitz" wrote in message I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? If money is really a consideration, just drive the second mixer from the direct outs or inserts of the first. And if you really need isolation between the rigs, buy a bunch of 1:1 line-level transformers to isolate the second mixer. I might as well add the caveat, which is that splitting sources from direct outs or insert points puts the guy who controls the trims on the first console in the driver's seat. Because we're on RAP, can I assume that the split is for recording? The other application would be a separate monitor mix. I've had acceptable (to my clients) results by connecting the direct outputs from an A&H GL-2200 to the inputs of an Alesis HD24. The levels match up nicely. Bonus: you get a 24-channel meter bridge. I've been tapping the inserts of a Mackie SR32 for a Delta 1010 and a Delta 66 for almost 2 years. Money IS an issue here since it isn't my money. If you need to run it more than a few meters, or the recorder is on a different electrical circuit (like a UPS, which I STRONGLY recommend), you may want those 1:1 isolating transformers. True, but balanced line level I/O can be surprisingly robust. Of course a really bad ground potential difference could get messy. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
In article znr1101824279k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
I decided that I didn't need a splitter often enough to invest in one, so I continued renting when I needed it. I was fortunate enough to have a reliable rental source so there was always a decent splitter available for $25. You might think about that, though I expect that rental prices have gone up since then, but possibly not very much, particularly if you can find an older, established company that's had their splitter for years and years and it's thorougly paid for. Where is this? Not National, I hope. Even though National Events is gone, their splitters still keep showing up on gigs, and they still don't work on half the channels. If somebody has decent splitters for rental in the DC area, I'd love to know. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
"Edwin Hurwitz" wrote in message I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? If money is really a consideration, just drive the second mixer from the direct outs or inserts of the first. Question for the group.... What would be the problem of building a mic splitter using an ordinary one primary one secondary 1:1 low Z mic transformer. The mic would be connected directly to mixer #1 and the transfoermer primary bridged across the mic signal and the secondary feeds mixer #2. The transformer provides complete gound loop isolation between the two mixers so there can be no ground loops. The mic is doubly loaded because it sees two mixer loads in parallel, but a mic splitter transfomer does that anyway. So what is the advantage of a true three winding mic splitter transformer compared to using an ordinary two winding mic transformer. The main issue of ground loops is completly resolved in either case. Mark |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Mark wrote:
What would be the problem of building a mic splitter using an ordinary one primary one secondary 1:1 low Z mic transformer. The mic would be connected directly to mixer #1 and the transfoermer primary bridged across the mic signal and the secondary feeds mixer #2. The transformer provides complete gound loop isolation between the two mixers so there can be no ground loops. The mic is doubly loaded because it sees two mixer loads in parallel, This is the problem. but a mic splitter transfomer does that anyway. No, it doesn't. That is the function of using the mike splitter transformer, so that the mike sees the proper load. (You also get isolation, but that is a free bonus.) So what is the advantage of a true three winding mic splitter transformer compared to using an ordinary two winding mic transformer. The main issue of ground loops is completly resolved in either case. The three-winding transformer allows the mike to see the correct load. The signal is dropped 6 dB on each of the outputs, and the output impedance of the input is the same as EACH of the outputs, not half of each output. The alternative is to use the bridging transformer, which is actually more common. This uses a high ratio transformer so you have a high output direct output, and a lower output isolated output. The transformer primary does put a little additional load on the mike, but because it's a high-Z input, it doesn't put a significant load on it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
"Edwin Hurwitz" wrote in message I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? If money is really a consideration, just drive the second mixer from the direct outs or inserts of the first. I've had good luck on many remotes NOT transformering either side of a hard split, but making sure that all AC powering for all audio gear was on the same leg of the service. When we had a problem, we'd transformer split just the offending channel. I know I've been lucky, but this has worked quite well on many many occasions. There have been times where common power wasn't possible, and then the full xformer split is warranted. And there will be "social problems" over who gets the un-transformered side of it. Philip Perkins are |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Edwin Hurwitz wrote:
I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? TIA Edwin Go with the Jensens direct from jensen. They work and sound great. Wire them like they tell you to on their web site and you can't go wrong. They can give you a direct and one or two isloated out-puts There are cheap splitters and there are good splitters, but here are no good cheap splitters. Whirlwind makes splitters with Lundahls, Jensens or their own split transformers. When you get up into the 48 to 56 pair set ups, cheap becomes relative. Go with Jensen's. I have been on the direct side and iso side of a lot of active and passive (transformer) splitters, and I'll take the Jensens every time. They work. Yah, I know, actives are suppose to sound "Better" and drive long lines with better response, but this High Tech is a big Head Ache when there are power, gain and pantom problems. Or "Oh I forgot that feed, I'll just send that from my end back down pair 19, ops there's an active splitter there, sorry that won't work." |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Don Worsham wrote:
Edwin Hurwitz wrote: I want to build a snake with mic splitters built in. I have all the other parts, but I am trying to find a source for the transformers that won't be super expensive (I know, in order to be good, a transformer is most likely expensive, but with the PAs that these mics are going to split into, a Jensen would be wasted). Any ideas? Cheapest source for Jensen? TIA Edwin Go with the Jensens direct from jensen. They work and sound great. Wire them like they tell you to on their web site and you can't go wrong. They can give you a direct and one or two isloated out-puts There are cheap splitters and there are good splitters, but here are no good cheap splitters. Whirlwind makes splitters with Lundahls, Jensens or their own split transformers. When you get up into the 48 to 56 pair set ups, cheap becomes relative. Go with Jensen's. I have been on the direct side and iso side of a lot of active and passive (transformer) splitters, and I'll take the Jensens every time. They work. Yah, I know, actives are suppose to sound "Better" and drive long lines with better response, but this High Tech is a big Head Ache when there are power, gain and pantom problems. Or "Oh I forgot that feed, I'll just send that from my end back down pair 19, ops there's an active splitter there, sorry that won't work." For the price of a good Jensen two way split 250 foot main/50 foot split on mults you can get into a fiber optic which is several times better than the best copper/transformer product George |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
|
#22
|
|||
|
|||
|
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Mark wrote:
OK then the three winding mic splitter xformer must be 2:1:1. There are twice as many winds on the primary as on the two secondaries, yes. But Whirlwind (and some others) calls this a 1:1:1. I guess the 6 dB loss is not a serious issue for loud perfromances. It's not really an issue for even soft performances. Gain is cheap and easy to get. I would have thought that loading a mic with 1/2 the Z would not be a big deal since there is no real standarization on rated mic load Z and preamp input Z anyway. Or is there? This gets to be a religious issue.... there isn't really any standardization but there are some known-good combinations. You know an SM-57 into a Mackie will sound bad, and into a John Hardy it'll sound great. Putting a dual-iso splitter will not change that. Putting a bridging splitter on there might actually make the SM-57 on the Mackie sound better... but it'll sound different, and the idea with the splitter is that it's not supposed to change the sound so when the recording guys come in and stick something in front of the PA console, the PA sound is altered as little as possible. And I didn't een consider the phantom power question. The 1:1 bridging xformer would need a DC blocking cap but then you could use mixer #1 to supply the phantom power and not have to futz with an external phantom power source. No DC blocking cap needed, since the two sides of the transformer are both at the same potential and there is no path to ground. So no current flows and the phantom power does not affect the bridging transformer. I would think tapping in to an existing setup this way would create the least amount of social problems. You're still changing the way the PA sounds (since the mikes are seeing twice the load), and you will have an iso that sounds a little different than the direct outs so you still have that to fight over. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Mark wrote:
OK then the three winding mic splitter xformer must be 2:1:1. There are twice as many winds on the primary as on the two secondaries, yes. But Whirlwind (and some others) calls this a 1:1:1. I guess the 6 dB loss is not a serious issue for loud perfromances. It's not really an issue for even soft performances. Gain is cheap and easy to get. I would have thought that loading a mic with 1/2 the Z would not be a big deal since there is no real standarization on rated mic load Z and preamp input Z anyway. Or is there? This gets to be a religious issue.... there isn't really any standardization but there are some known-good combinations. You know an SM-57 into a Mackie will sound bad, and into a John Hardy it'll sound great. Putting a dual-iso splitter will not change that. Putting a bridging splitter on there might actually make the SM-57 on the Mackie sound better... but it'll sound different, and the idea with the splitter is that it's not supposed to change the sound so when the recording guys come in and stick something in front of the PA console, the PA sound is altered as little as possible. And I didn't een consider the phantom power question. The 1:1 bridging xformer would need a DC blocking cap but then you could use mixer #1 to supply the phantom power and not have to futz with an external phantom power source. No DC blocking cap needed, since the two sides of the transformer are both at the same potential and there is no path to ground. So no current flows and the phantom power does not affect the bridging transformer. I would think tapping in to an existing setup this way would create the least amount of social problems. You're still changing the way the PA sounds (since the mikes are seeing twice the load), and you will have an iso that sounds a little different than the direct outs so you still have that to fight over. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
|
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
What are they Teaching | Audio Opinions | |||
Powerful Argument in Favor of Agnosticism and Athetism | Audio Opinions | |||
Is a Windows PC So Hard to Find? | Pro Audio | |||
Is a Windows PC So Hard to Find? | Pro Audio | |||
Want an audio system but dont have the cash? get the cash find out how | General |