[Andre Jute]

Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Graham

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and
b) buy or build a pair of horns with Lowther driver and make my HWAF
mods to them, which are simple enough even for your limited dexterity
to achieve. You can see here how (relatively) simple it can be if you
start out with the factory-sawn wood: http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...20T91HWAF3.jpg

If QUAD ESL are beyond your budget, and my T91 HWAF Lowther horns
beyond your woodworking skills or budget, you might consider that it
is not difficult to align a speaker to whatever bass is required and
to match it the DF of the amp. My Impresario speaker at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...Impresario.jpg
can be built for under £250 per pair, are simple straightsided boxes
with only one brace the same size as a top or bottom panel, therefore
can be built even by the tenthumbed, and work with an inexpensive SE
amp for which I also provide a design, my SEntry amp using trioded
EL34, a cheap taste of Nirvana for those on student budgets:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Jute-EL34-SEntry.jpg

I might add that as a psychologist I understand perception, including
a point about musical perception that electronics engineers have the
greatest difficulty in grasping, to wit that the weight of the
fundamental is pretty low in reconstructing the frequency in the ear.
I demonstrated that the other day with regard to 196Hz on a violin in
a letter to Iain Churches which, typically, elicited no discussion
because no-one except he and I are interested, and we already know
about it. It means that the vaunted "audio range" of the engineers,
20Hz to 20kHz, is a joke at both ends, at the top end because most
people never were able to hear that high, at the bottom end because
the lowest note on any musical instrument, 16Hz on some organs, is
more than adequately produced in *any room of correct length* (and
preferably golden ratio proportions) by an amp that goes down to only
32Hz. That is one reason why my T39 KISS Amp
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T...trafi-crct.jpg
is rolled off at 32Hz. (The other reason for rolling off an amp for
use with horns precisely right, or on the high side of precisely right
if you cannot achieve precision, is that a horn unloads the driver
right suddenly under Fs and you don't want the cone flapping around
pointlessly, a tricky special-instance consideration with horns).

So, to summarize, no "phoney low end boost" chez Jute (except for when
I deliberately do it as a joke, as for instance on my "Christmas
Pipes" for playing Gregorian Chant with *extra ambiance*). Quite the
contrary. I have put in the thought and spent the money to match my
amps and rooms precisely to the best speakers I could buy or build. It
is a method you might consider seriously now that you have outgrown
boomboxes, if indeed you have. I make no moral judgement about vented
speakers, you understand; I am merely more interested in making the
music sound like the concert hall than in the sound in isolation.

Andre Jute
For more visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[John Byrns]

In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:

I might add that as a psychologist I understand perception, including
a point about musical perception that electronics engineers have the
greatest difficulty in grasping, to wit that the weight of the
fundamental is pretty low in reconstructing the frequency in the ear.
I demonstrated that the other day with regard to 196Hz on a violin in
a letter to Iain Churches which, typically, elicited no discussion
because no-one except he and I are interested, and we already know
about it.

Andre, I missed your discussion with Iain, but I must disagree with your
claim "that electronics engineers have the greatest difficulty in
grasping" this. Any electronics engineer that has worked on the design
of of small table radios understands this point about musical perception.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Andre Jute]

John Byrns wrote:

In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:

I might add that as a psychologist I understand perception, including
a point about musical perception that electronics engineers have the
greatest difficulty in grasping, to wit that the weight of the
fundamental is pretty low in reconstructing the frequency in the ear.
I demonstrated that the other day with regard to 196Hz on a violin in
a letter to Iain Churches which, typically, elicited no discussion
because no-one except he and I are interested, and we already know
about it.

Andre, I missed your discussion with Iain, but I must disagree with your
claim "that electronics engineers have the greatest difficulty in
grasping" this. Any electronics engineer that has worked on the design
of of small table radios understands this point about musical perception.

Regards,

John Byrns

All right, perhaps I've maligned a subsection of electronics engineers
who have been taught this crucial fact by experience, and to them I
apologize unreservedly.

However, "that the weight of the fundamental is pretty low in
reconstructing the frequency in the ear" should be a crucial fact in
the armory of every audio engineer, yet there is not the slightest
evidence that any of the self-proclaimed audio electronics engineers
(some of them with impressive credentials) on these conferences knows
it, or admits it, or understands the implications. In fact, there is
every indication, for instance in loose talk about bass extension and
even looser talk about the "audio frequency band" that audio
electronics engineers who mouth off here and on related conferences
have never heard this fact before today.

This is weird, if you consider it, because the loudspeaker is the most
important part of the audio chain, and the one where unnecessary
bandwidth extension costs the most.

Andre Jute
Perception is a skill that requires study and careful development over
along period of time. Few have it as a natural gift. -- Iain Churches

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

Lord Above.

Graham

[Andre Jute]

Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie. And you clearly didn't read
or understand what I said in the rest of my post, which you stupidly
snipped. I repeat the relevant paragraph for your education. When you
understand what I'm talking about, come back here and we'll test your
knowledge. Here we go:

"I might add that as a psychologist I understand perception, including
a point about musical perception that electronics engineers (1) have
the
greatest difficulty in grasping, to wit that the weight of the
fundamental is pretty low in reconstructing the frequency in the ear.
I demonstrated that the other day with regard to 196Hz on a violin in
a letter to Iain Churches which, typically, elicited no discussion
because no-one except he and I are interested, and we already know
about it. It means that the vaunted "audio range" of the engineers,
20Hz to 20kHz, is a joke at both ends, at the top end because most
people never were able to hear that high, at the bottom end because
the lowest note on any musical instrument, 16Hz on some organs, is
more than adequately produced in *any room of correct length* (and
preferably golden ratio proportions) by an amp that goes down to only
32Hz. "

Lord Above.

I'm always here for you, Poopie, because you are the least of us and
therefore need my help more than anyone else.

Tell us, Poopie, how long must a room be for say a Quad ESL-63
adequately to reproduce the lowest frequency of which it is capable.
It is a simple, straighforward question straight out of a high school
science test, so you should be able to give a straighforward answer.
You are permitted to go ask for help from your mates. Look forward to
your answer.

Graham

Andre Jute
Special tolerance for diplomaed quarterwits at Christmas

(1) According to the excellent John Byrns, electronics engineers with
experience in designing small radios have long since grasped the
point. They're excluded from my strictures. But Poopie Stevenson's
response proves my point about electronics engineers in audio in
general.

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light. It's
a natural consequence of their very construction.

Graham

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:
You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass
light. It's a natural consequence of their very construction.

You'd need to qualify 'bass light'. If an absolute term then the vast
majority of the speakers on the market qualify for that description. The
smooth LF response of an electrostatic makes it seem 'bass light' to many
used to honking cabinets - but that's a different matter. Electrostatics
tend to be more room sensitive too than some 'conventional' designs.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Eeyore]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass
light. It's a natural consequence of their very construction.

You'd need to qualify 'bass light'.

The cancellation of low frequencies as a result of their physical
construction. Unless you know of an IB electrostatic.

Graham

[tony sayer]

In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrela
scribeth thus


Andre Jute wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light.
It's

Coloration light you mean...

--
Tony Sayer

[Eeyore]

tony sayer wrote:

Eeyore scribeth thus
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light.
It's

Coloration light you mean...

Electrostatics may indeed have less colouration than most speakers but that has
nothing to do with the bass.

The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will always have poor
bass repsponse. It's inherent to the design (the rear radiation cancels the front
radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

Graham

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.


Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.



It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light. It's
a natural consequence of their very construction.

Graham

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 24, 6:15*am, Eeyore
wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact

That's what I said, Poopie, that all the idiots think they know this
for a fact because the other idiots on their street corner said so. I
prefer to trust my own experience. I actually have several pairs of
electrostats, and horns, and IBs, and vented speaks.

you complete idiot

Oh, I wouldn't claim the perfection of completion. I probably have
another thirty years to live, at least part of which I shall spend
polishing my idiocy to a gloss that will give apoplectic fits to zero-
imagination clowns like you at a hundred paces.

that electrostatics are bass light. It's
a natural consequence of their very construction.

Nope, it's not. First of all, electrostats are not inherently bass
light. Like every other speakers, their bass depends on their size and
their positioning in the room, not to mention the length of the room.
Your *opinion* that they are bass light merely reflects your lack of
imagination and perhaps the limitations of your accommodation, and
probably a lack of experience with electrostats.

First of all, you can put the edge of an ESL right up against the
wall, then on one side the wavelength to cancellation becomes the
entire length of wall to the other ESL against the opposite wall.

Second, you can stack ESL to get any amount of bass that a headbanger
like you considers necessary. All it takes is imagination, a certain
minimum of engineering skill, and money. If your room is around 45
feet or longer, a pair of ESL to each wall will be good, with each
pair together at one edge and angled to put about 12in between the
centrepoints, the open end of the triangle hard up against the wall.
If the room is long enough put the two triangles of ESL about halfway
along the long walls. Try it. Wherever you are in the room, the sound
will follow you like the Mona Lisa's eyes, and you will have bass down
to Tannoy horn levels (and there is nothing but nothing more
authoritative than the bass a big horn attaches to the floor and the
walls and the ceiling, to your very skin). If you're high enough on
bad dope to want to ruin your ears, stack another pair of ESL on top
of each pair already against the wall. It isn't even necessary to
angle them because this is just higher quality bass reinforcement than
you get with a sub (subs for dipoles and particularly for electrostats
are a pain because they can't match that ultra-clean quality of the
midrange).

Third, a dipole isn't a problem, it is an opportunity. Consider your
older type of grand house, built to have an enfilade of rooms all
connected to each other in a row, like an art gallery. Now consider
the opportunity of a Bessel array, which becomes domestically feasible
with ESL in rooms around 40 feet long. All you do to get all the bass
of electrostats is to set up a Bessel array of as few as five or seven
electrostats in a row in the space between the two rooms, fill in the
holes, and Bob's your uncle, for less cost than the 2x or 4x pyramid
of drivers per wall (8 or 16 for two rooms) you have two rooms full of
point source sound following you wherever you go, including excellent
clean bass down to the mid-20s. Don't give me bull about box speakers
being able to match that sort of quality; everyone with the slightest
experience knows it isn't true. You can learn about Bessel arrays on
my netsite at: at:http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20on
%20BESSEL.htm
Of course, Bessel is an engineering solution for cheapskates wanting
quality sound, and ESL are not exactly for cheapskates but, hey, let a
thousand flowers bloom.

Graham

You should put your mind in gear sometime, Poopie. You will find the
new experience exhilarating. You might even want to do it again.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review