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#1
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
Hi there,
Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? If so, is there going to be any difference to my QSC USA 900 power amplifier (2x450W at 4 ohm) at all? I've read that amplifier has to be powerful enough to fully drive speakers (especially low frequencies), others say that there is no diference in the amps at all, and that they all sound the same with volumes matched, unless they are overdriven. Is the Technics amp powerful enough and can it drive these speakers properly? Is there going to be any loss in the lower frequency range? Another question: Is it possible to burn/damage the speakers or the amp because the amp is not powerful enough? How loud you'd need to get the volume in this case? Thank you so much! I appreciate it! Ray |
#2
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
wrote:
Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? Sure. If it starts to clip, turn it down. You can use any amplifier as long as you don't care about sound quality. If so, is there going to be any difference to my QSC USA 900 power amplifier (2x450W at 4 ohm) at all? Yes. I've read that amplifier has to be powerful enough to fully drive speakers (especially low frequencies), others say that there is no diference in the amps at all, and that they all sound the same with volumes matched, unless they are overdriven. All of these are true. The thing is, you want an amplifier to have a really low output impedance to drive the low end well. The easiest way to assure that is to get a powerful amp. But, the BM15 is pretty efficient and will work fine with a small amp, as long as you don't clip the amp. Is the Technics amp powerful enough and can it drive these speakers properly? Is there going to be any loss in the lower frequency range? The Technics is a total piece of crap, and I would be more worried about that than about the power rating. Try the two out for yourself and you'll understand what I mean. Another question: Is it possible to burn/damage the speakers or the amp because the amp is not powerful enough? How loud you'd need to get the volume in this case? It is possible. Don't clip the amp and you'll be fine. Let me repeat this: don't clip the amp. If it starts to sound bad, turn it down. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
Thanks for your answers Scott! I appreciate that!
The Technics is a total piece of crap, and I would be more worried about that than about the power rating. Try the two out for yourself and you'll understand what I mean. That just amazes me. I can probably understand if there isn't enough wattage to power up the speakers, as for sound quality of the Technics amp (it's a SU-A800DM2), it's amazingly clean and powerful. In my own experience, I haven't noticed any difference at all while comparing these those above mentioned amplifiers. These are a couple of links that you will probably find interesting: http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm What do you think about that? Cheers! Ray |
#4
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
wrote:
Thanks for your answers Scott! I appreciate that! The Technics is a total piece of crap, and I would be more worried about that than about the power rating. Try the two out for yourself and you'll understand what I mean. That just amazes me. I can probably understand if there isn't enough wattage to power up the speakers, as for sound quality of the Technics amp (it's a SU-A800DM2), it's amazingly clean and powerful. In my own experience, I haven't noticed any difference at all while comparing these those above mentioned amplifiers. These things use really noxious-sounding hybrid output modules which are run as far into class B as they can get away with, in order to keep the heatsink costs down. The top end on them tends to be very harsh. Do an A-B comparison between the thing and any one of the mid-priced home stereo amps with discrete output stages, and you'll hear a surprising difference. These are a couple of links that you will probably find interesting: http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm What do you think about that? I think anyone citing Stereo Review about anything ought to be ashamed of themselves. Also I think even the cheap Behringer in that second listening test is a step up from the Technics. Give it a listen and see. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
On Oct 16, 12:59*pm, wrote:
Hi there, Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? If so, is there going to be any difference to my QSC USA 900 power amplifier (2x450W at 4 ohm) at all? I've read that amplifier has to be powerful enough to fully drive speakers (especially low frequencies), others say that there is no diference in the amps at all, and that they all sound the same with volumes matched, unless they are overdriven. Is the Technics amp powerful enough and can it drive these speakers properly? Is there going to be any loss in the lower frequency range? Another question: Is it possible to burn/damage the speakers or the amp because the amp is not powerful enough? How loud you'd need to get the volume in this case? Thank you so much! I appreciate it! Ray Ray, Dynaudio's design philosophy leans toward quality over efficiency. Most of their speakers are a bit lower in efficiency than other brands, but handle way more power. That said, the Technics will work fine unless you want to get really loud with lots of deep bass. Beware the little know fact that under powering a speaker will blow it out faster than over powering it, due to clipping distortion. The Technics being a hifi piece probably doesn't say when it is clipping. The Bryston 2B or 4B is a much better alternative. Look on line for used, sometimes they are available for $5 or 600. If this scares you stay with the Technics and keep an eye out for a fast, powerful respectable amplifier. I think the BM15s are rated at 150 watts but has been a long time since I needed to know that spec. Party on. Eric Blackmer |
#7
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
wrote in message
Hi there, Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? Yes you can, and you will obtain some predictable results. For example, they are rated at 88 dB/W at one meter (actually relevant as stated if you use them as near fields). In rough numbers your amp's output is 20 dB above 1 watt, so we're talking 108 dB at amp clipping presuming no compression in the speakers. You speakers are capable of over 120 dB, so you aren't going to be able to fully exploit their dynamic range. OTOH, your ears will thank you if you don't actually exploit their dynamic range in the near field. I've had speakers that put out 108 dB @ 1 meter at amp clipping, and they were loud but not awe-inspiring in actual listening room (intermediate field) use. If you follow the 85 dB rule for monitoring, probably no problem. If so, is there going to be any difference to my QSC USA 900 power amplifier (2x450W at 4 ohm) at all? Two things for sure - the USA 900 has a fairly noisy fan, and 450 watts is about another 6 dB worth of power. I've read that amplifier has to be powerful enough to fully drive speakers (especially low frequencies), These speakers aren't subwoofers, they are speced to be rolling off pretty significantly below about 40 Hz. others say that there is no difference in the amps at all, and that they all sound the same with volumes matched, unless they are overdriven. The chances of overdriving the Technics integrated amp is greater than the chances of overdriving the QSC. Is the Technics amp powerful enough and can it drive these speakers properly? Depends on the room and your expectations. Is there going to be any loss in the lower frequency range? That is probably the least of your problems since the speakers are always going to be arguably marginal on the bass end unless you add a subwoofer. On balance, monitoring with speakers that roll off below 40 Hz is not necessarily a problem unless you are mixing rap or other material that is very dependent on strong low bass. A speaker with a 40 Hz roll-off is not going to tell you what your customers with large systems are hearing. Of course if like me you don't have many customers like that, and you don't make them a priority, then these speakers will probably be fine as is. If you don't like these speakers, I'll pay shipping from anyplace in the 48 states to my house. ;-) Another question: Is it possible to burn/damage the speakers or the amp because the amp is not powerful enough? That's an old argument, and after long consideration, I'd say that maybe yes, maybe no, but probably not. How loud you'd need to get the volume in this case? I think that anybody who actually tries to get 120 dB out of these boxes is playing with fire. ;-) |
#8
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
Eric B wrote:
On Oct 16, 12:59 pm, wrote: Hi there, Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? Yes you can, but you need to align things and use markers or whatever so that you KNOW that it doesn't clip. If so, is there going to be any difference to my QSC USA 900 power amplifier (2x450W at 4 ohm) at all? You have a strange way of thinking, as explained by Arny it is capable of being loud enugh for sane listening, but what worries me is that you do not seem to consider sound quality to be a parameter. I've read that amplifier has to be powerful enough to fully drive speakers (especially low frequencies) An amplifier should not clip or otherwise overload, that's all there is to that. Note the wording "otherwise overload", some designs were considerably better at driving resistors than at driving loudspeakers because loudspeakers are quite complex loads that are likely to require current to flow when the voltage driving the is zero. This is caused by the phase difference between voltage and current in a circuit with complex impedance. I recall an amplier test that came to the conclusion that a 2 X 300 watts amp should have its spec altered to read 2 X 11 watts due to the actions of its protection circuitry when loaded with a real loudspeaker. others say that there is no diference in the amps at all, and that they all sound the same with volumes matched, unless they are overdriven. Yes, I have heard that too. Not all agree, but it IS relevant to be aware that you do not need more power than you need, you just need to avoid "clipping and otherwise overloading". You don't need more, and there are small amps out there with great punch and large ones that sound anaemic in comparison. My basis for choosing the household poweramp in another age was a method called listening. Is the Technics amp powerful enough and can it drive these speakers properly? Dynaudio use a crossover strategy that should cause the loudspeaker to constitute a benign load, interpreting "drive properly" to mean "able to deliver the required current" I'd say yes to both and ask you how it sounds compared to other poweramps. If you can't hear the difference in sonic signature between different items of electronics you need to train "techie listening". It is very differerent from "musicians listening" because it is about listening for what should not be there rather than listening for what is there. Can you hear the layers in a mix, can you hear the recorded rooms ambinece signature, etc. etc. ... Is there going to be any loss in the lower frequency range? No. Another question: Is it possible to burn/damage the speakers or the amp because the amp is not powerful enough? That is a silly way to circumscribe it, an amp that is "not powerful enough" is an overdriven amp, and you of course align your setup so that amp clipping is well beyond clipping whatever it is that feeds it AND so that you know what peak SPL that corresponds to. 108 dB in the room from a dual 100 watt amp is "close enough" as a guess, and it is slighly louder than you should listen IF you want to avoid hearing damage, ie. you have headroom beyond the 100 dB instantanous peak that should be considered the clipping point of the human ear, above that range the ears mechanical transmission path starts to distort more than the brains autocorrelator can compensate. In laymans terms: the louder it gets beyond 100 dB instantanous peak the less you will hear, then AND afterwards. How loud you'd need to get the volume in this case? If you align it properly and it is not loud enough, then you need a bigger amp. What matters with amps is not only whether they clip, but also HOW they clip, an ill-behaved or partly faulty amp that goes into a short burst of white noise instead of just "flat-topping" the waveform is in my experience quite likely to damage treble loudspeakers even if only marginally clipped and one that decides to take a lengthy trip to either plus or minus Vcc is quite good at frying bass loudspeakers or anything else, all bets are also off in case an amp decides to practice being a medium wave transmitter, ie. goes into oscillation. Large amps do more damage fast if things go wrong. Dynaudio's design philosophy leans toward quality over efficiency. Most of their speakers are a bit lower in efficiency than other brands, but handle way more power. It is their policy to aim for a 1 kWatt _peak_ powerhandling, but peak means peak and comes with an exact defintion of for how long time and there may be frequency range specs that go with it. Hotplug a phonoplug into a 1 kWatt amp with is input attenuator fully open and anything can be blown up. That said, the Technics will work fine unless you want to get really loud with lots of deep bass. Beware the little know fact that under powering a speaker will blow it out faster than over powering it, due to clipping distortion. The Technics being a hifi piece probably doesn't say when it is clipping. His scope will tell him when he align things. Or a 30 dB attenuator and a pair of headphones, but don't wear them, just hold then near enough so that you can hear the very audible onset of clipping a sine wave, open output is OK for that alignment .... just set max imput level to the power amp 2 dB lower. The Bryston 2B or 4B is a much better alternative. Look on line for used, sometimes they are available for $5 or 600. I recently got me a second hand Yamaha P1600 and it is not, like their P2200, slightly boring, I like it a lot. My grieance with the P2200 is not a major one, and it could - by having metering - be a very good choice for the OP's use. The P1600 has better inter-transient silence and a rock stead bass range and is much better at doing violins and has much better ambience detail, but the P2200 is OK and will tell you what you need to know about a recording, even it it may keep quiet about how good it (the recording) really is, I found one that appeared to be OK and got that one too, the aim being biamping a small event rig via a CX 2300 Does Dynaudio have an amplifier sizing reocmmendation for those loudspeakers? Eric Blackmer Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#9
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
In addition to lots, and very high-Q, responses already posted,
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:33:30 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message Hi there, Could anyone please tell me if I could power my passive BM15s with a Technics integrated amplifier, which specs a 4 ohm, 1 khz continuous power output both channels driven 2x100W, 63-12,5 kHz continuous power output both channels driven 2x85W? For example, they are rated at 88 dB/W at one meter (actually relevant as stated if you use them as near fields). In rough numbers your amp's output is 20 dB above 1 watt, so we're talking 108 dB at amp clipping presuming no compression in the speakers. Your speakers are capable of over 120 dB, so you aren't going to be able to fully exploit their dynamic range. OTOH, your ears will thank you if you don't actually exploit their dynamic range in the near field. If you follow the 85 dB rule for monitoring, probably no problem. All of the usual suspects, lounging around here on the corner, just looking for trouble, like maybe a flareup between the Sharks and the Jets..., or maybe something a little less gay (or whatever...) know all about the 85 dB SPL monitoring paradigm (Brother, can you spare a paradigm?) but the OP likely mightn't. But it goes (very, very roughly, Tiger) like this: To establish a reference acoustic volume level, the studio tech generates some reference combination of sound outputs from all monitoring speakers and measures acoustic level at the monitoring location(s). A reference "0 VU" is decreed, or alternatively, a standard is accepted. An earlier standard of 85 dB SPL or a later standard of 83 dB SPL actually makes little difference in the finished product - we're very adaptable critters. What matters is that we reference a sound pressure level number ("0 dBVU") rather than some nebulous "amplifier power" number expressed in (linear) dollars, rather than (log) sound. This "0 dBVU" is our only real working reference point. Amplifiers, their working range in active crossover systems, and even their most important characteristics (ferzample, the design choice in balancing small-signal performance with large-signal, or the design choice in balancing local degeneration vs. global feedback) are fundamentally affected by the choice of "0 dBVU". An amplifier needs to be able to generate an SPL of at least 20dB larger than the reference 0 dBVU and to have negligible distortion through the dynamic range of (at least) 0 dBVU through -60 dBVU. Doesn't sound like such a much, but getting that range perfect has taken folks at least as smart as us a lifetime to approach. The modern emphasis on the +20 dBVU end of the working range, for advertising purposes, is often at the expense of the -60 dBVU end. Doesn't have to be this way. Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornebck "Beauty will save the world." - Feodor Dostoevsky "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music." - Frank Zappa |
#10
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Amplifier for Dynaudio BM15 passive monitors? Thanks!
Hi,
Thank you so much everyone for your input. I really appreciate it. It is strange that some people are writing about me wanting to sacrifice the quality of music, and I'm sure they think they can here all kinds of diferences in amplifiers, which sounds like magic to me, but that's just my opinion. I prefered the Technics since it has a remote control, plus this amplifier worked like a tank so far, and all this live gear I'm sure is very solid and nice, but I need something for my home, not rehearsal room, something with a remote control and something that would nicely fit my Dynaudio BM15 (later on I'll think about adding a subwoofer to the setup). Until recently I thought there is no way that I can find something for a decent price (not costing 1000s), but (hurray hurray) I found to contenders, and I would really appreciate your thoughs on those pieces, it's Onkyo and Yamaha integrated amps, which don't need pre-amps. My biggest concern is that Yamaha states it's a 8ohm-6 ohm amplifier, though they rate the dynamic power at 8/6/4/2 ohms, their specification goes like this: Yamaha AX-1090 Minimum RMS power per channel 8 ohms, 20hz to 20 khz 0.01 THD - 145W 6 ohms, 20hz to 20 khz 0.02 THD - 185W Dynamic power per channel 8/6/4/2 ohms - 220 / 290 / 360 / 460W DIN standart output power per channel (europe model only) 4 ohms, 1khz 0.7 thd - 250W Dynamic headroom 8/6 ohms - 1.81 db / 1.95 db IEC power (8 ohms, 1 khz 0.01 THD (europe model only) 170W Power band width 8 ohms, 72.5W 0.03 THD Damping factor 8 ohms 20 hz to 20 khz 350 or more The other contender is an Onkyo A-9755, which is 8-4 ohms amp, but on the pricey side for me: Power output: 150 W + 150 W (8 Ù, 1 kHz, DIN) 300 W + 300 W (4 Ù, 1 kHz, JEITA) Dynamic power: 330 W + 330 W (3 Ù, Front) 270 W + 270 W (4 Ù, Front) 170 W + 170W (8 Ù, Front) THD (total harmonic distortion): 0.08 % (1 kHz, 1 W) Damping factor: 25 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ù) Input sensitivity and impedance: 200 mV, 50 kÙ (CD) 2.5 mV, 50 kÙ (PHONO MM) Output level and impedance: 200 mV, 2.2 kÙ (REC OUT) Phono overload: 70 mV (MM, 1 kHz, 0.5 %) Frequency response: 10 Hz-60 kHz, +1 dB-3 dB (CD) Tone control: +10 dB, -10 dB, 100 Hz (BASS) +10 dB, -10 dB, 20 kHz (TREBLE) +10 dB, 50 Hz (LOUDNESS) +2 dB, 10 kHz (LOUDNESS) SN ratio: 100 dB (CD, IHF-A) 70 dB (PHONO, IHF-A) Speaker impedance: 4-16 Ù These are my speakers: Dynaudio BM15 passives: Frequency Response (+/- 3 dB) 43 Hz - 20 kHz Peak SPL 1m, pair (IEC Long Term) 127 dB Peak Peak SPL 2m, 5.1 (IEC Long Term) 128,5 dB Peak Max SPL 1m SPL @ 1m (+4/-10) 109 dB RMS Amplifier Minimum 50 W ( 94 dB SPL @ 2m) IEC Long term powerhandling 250W IEC Short term powerhandling 1000W Sensitivity 88 dB Impedance Nominal 4 ohm Impedance HF (200 kHz) 5,9 ohm Resonance Frequency 43 Hz Internal Cabinet Volume 25,8 liters Bass Principle Bass reflex Crossover Frequencies 2700 Hz Crossover Slope Woofer 6 dB/oct; Tweeter 12 dB/oct I know that Onkyo is 4 ohms, so it's more fitting to my speakers, but as I said it's a bit on the pricey side, plus it wouldn't hurt to understand (for me) is there any difference in those specs (except for the obvious power difference in wattage). Thanks so much in advance! Ray |
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