In article ,
Helmet Head wrote:
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:08:13 -0500,
(Matthew Russotto) wrote:
In article ,
Ginny wrote:
Why? Why did you think that, especially when you saw NO turn signal?

Err, because a common reason people move to the left of the lane is to
make a left turn.

Correct, but without a signal (sometimes even with) it's hard to
anticipate what a slowing vehicle might do, regardless of where
they are in the lane.

I find the signals to be an unreliable indicator in any case. If someone
moves to the left, slows (whether or not they brake), and there's a
logical place for them to make a left turn, I'll tentatively assume
that's what they're up to.
--
Matthew T. Russotto
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.

A few clarifications.
A. I have no intention to get off easy. It may cost me more financially to
go to court. However, I felt that my car was hit and it is
not fair that I have to pay a fine (I know life is never fair :-( ). I just
could not figure out what went wrong. Hence my question was whether I
was at fault. Thanx to Mattew Russotto pointing out that a driver
should stay as close to the right curb as possible when making right turn.

B. I did not try to pass her on the right side. At least I did not have
the chance yet. Even when the officer handed me the ticket, he also
said that he did not think I was trying to pass her on the right.

C. I know I was not going too fast because of the skid mark, but I think
because of skid mark, the officer concluded that I was driving too fast.
I could not find any information on what a reasonable length of
skid mark should be.


After reading reading the discussion, I decided to plea not guilty. I have not
decided whether to get an attorney. In the worst case, I pay the fine, have
two points and higher insurance. I just do not feel right to plea guilty if
I was not at fault in particular I was nearly hurt.

Thanx again.
BW



(Bill) wrote in message . com...
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court.

It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way).
The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The
speed
requirement is 35 miles/hr.

I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I
stayed
close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw
the car
in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I
immediately
swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her
passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a
right turn to her home.


| |
| |
______| |
-- this is her driveway
/||
______
| her car hit my car
|
|

She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house
screaming
at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I
was not.
However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark
of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to
stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I
was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police
report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite
sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think
she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of
the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn
into
her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and
confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I
stay far left enough.


From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads

"A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and
circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to
endanger, a
person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving."


Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will
happen
if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still
have to
pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ?
I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance.

thanx for the advice.

BW

Ginny wrote:
Marc wrote:

Ginny wrote:


The smashed helmet and bent tire on the bike can be seen at
http://www.ginnysanchez.com/pix/bike.JPG . She was bumped by a car that
popped up onto the SIDEWALK because he went too far to the right in an
effort to pass a car turning left.

So passing on the right and speeding were irrelevant.

Re-read the above. He went too far to the right, to pass a car making a left.

If he went too far to the right to pass someone, then he was **passing on the
right** which makes it relevant. If he were NOT passing on the right, he
would not have wound up on the sidewalk.

And it is speed related because if he was stopped, he couldn't have gone up
on the curb. And it is drinking related because if he was drinking in the
local bar, rather than driving, he wouldn't have been on the road.

The one and only problem was that he was obviously incapable of controlling
his vehicle. I suspect that he didn't intend to drive up on the sidewalk.
What maneuver he was attempting and whether it was legal is irrelevant to
the fact that if he were competent, he would have been able to maintain
control of his vehicle.

Marc
For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"

(Helmet Head) wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:06:17 -0400, Ginny wrote:

I have just given you two very good reasons, from one family, as to why
you should not follow too closely, go too fast nor drive too close to
the right on a residential street.

Agree.

Residential driving can be very scary. Once a toddler waddle out
from between two cars, parked along the road, in front of my
van.Thankfully I was going slow enough and swerved, missing
him/her.

When I took my drivers test (years ago), I lost points on one and only one
thing. On a residential street, I didn't drive close enough to the right
hand curb. If I had driven in the opposite of the manner you describe,
then I would have had a perfect score on my driving test.

Of course, I have never had too much trouble stopping for people coming out
between parked cars, as when there is a chance that there would be people,
I slow down and look for feet under cars on the side of the road.

Marc
For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"

Marc wrote in message . ..
(Bill) wrote:

A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court.

If you get a lawyer and present your case properly in court (and the law is
on your side) you should have no trouble

Uh, yes he will. If you get a ticket from a NJ cop, you are guilty.
Don;t even bother setting a court date.

Just mail in your fine and save the hassle & remember in NJ a summons
means "guilty".

Daniel Snooks wrote:
Bill wrote

Was I truely at fault ?


Yes. But it is questionable if the charge should be "careless".

There seems to be a lot of back and forth in this thread about whether or
not the other driver was partially at fault. She was not at fault ... even
partially. You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). It
doesn't matter if they have come to a complete stop, and they have their
left turn signal on, you still must not pass on the right. If there is more
then one lane, then it is ok.
In the scenario you describe, the other driver was still driving on your
side of the road (albeit at the extreme left of the lane) which clearly puts
you at fault for pulling up beside her.


What I did when faced with an Ontario careless driving charge in 1993
was get the court to reduce it to unsafe lane change, which was fewer
points. This happened pretty much no questions asked with a lawyer
present. There is no way insurance will not go up in these situations
however, a much greater payout than the fine itself. My dad was a bit
upset about his rates considering I was 18 at the time.

Should I even try to go to court ?


Yes. If you can get the charge reduced it will be worth it.


What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ?


No idea, I don't live in NJ. Where I am (Toronto) if I plead not guilty and
then pay the fine anyways (within the set time limit) nothing happens.


What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ?


Probably up to the judge ... not sure what the min and max sentences are.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:25:14 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
wrote:

That is your right under the law. It's unfortunate that you have
chosen to waste the taxpayers' money fighting a ticket you clearly
deserve, but that's your prerogative.

It's YOUR money, not the taxpayers'. YOU pay court costs (usu.
whether you bother to attend court or not), not the taxpayer.

--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
msg. typed using dvorak system so excuse all ytops!

It has been many, many years since I have had a ticket or been in a
courtroom,
but IIRC the "court costs" amount was ridiculously low, on the order of
$15 -
$30. Have the fees gone up significantly since then?

Probably not, but seeing as he pays taxes just as much as your arrogant ass
it's his right to contest the ticket. Dick.


Paul Vina

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:40:13 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
wrote:

Are court costs completely recovered by the fees you pay? The salary of the
judge, the bailiff, and all the other people who process your case? What about
the salary of the police officer who has to come in and testify?

Well that's all sine qua non - the ossifer KNOWS he's gonna hafta
come in and testify (or phone/mail in his testimony, depending on
where you're at - sigh). Should he not be overly enamored by this
prospect, he can always issue a warning instead of a tix, should he
so desire.

It has been many, many years since I have had a ticket or been in a courtroom,
but IIRC the "court costs" amount was ridiculously low, on the order of $15 -
$30. Have the fees gone up significantly since then?

Methinks they kinda have! :{

--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
msg. typed using dvorak system so excuse all ytops!

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:14:48 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
wrote:

The point is, it's part of his job to appear in court to testify, and his salary
is paid by TAXES, not the "court costs" fee that gets tacked on to your fine. If
the OP does not fight the ticket, then that money won't be wasted on his futile
effort.

And if the phuzziewuzzie donna like it, (s)he doesn't even
necessarily hafta write the tix in the first instance, that's the
point. And yes, giving testimony *is* a part of the phuzziewuzzie's
job.

OK, Mr. Voice-of-Experience, what do they charge you for "curt costs" nowadays?


I'm afraid I can't really help you there, 'cos court fees are
normally included in the "face value" of the tix, along with the not
always so aptly named "victim surcharge levy". But as a consequence,
ticket fines are certainly a lot higher now than they used to be.

--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
msg. typed using dvorak system so excuse all ytops!

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:27:14 -0400, 127.0.0.1 wrote:

wrong again, in NJ if you appear in court and plead not guilty and
then lose, additional court costs are added to the ticket

That practice has already been declared illegal (unconstitutional)
here.

--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
msg. typed using dvorak system so excuse all ytops!

"Ricardo" wrote in message
news:3f888419.7829786@news...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:14:48 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
wrote:

The point is, it's part of his job to appear in court to testify, and his
salary
is paid by TAXES, not the "court costs" fee that gets tacked on to your
fine. If
the OP does not fight the ticket, then that money won't be wasted on his
futile
effort.

And if the phuzziewuzzie donna like it, (s)he doesn't even
necessarily hafta write the tix in the first instance, that's the
point. And yes, giving testimony *is* a part of the phuzziewuzzie's
job.

And the "court fees" go into the general operating budget for the
jurisdiction where the offense occurred. And the next budget cycle, those
fees along with other revenues generated go to pay for all the nice things
we want our governments to give us.

The officer testifying in traffic court is usually compensated for the
addtional time needed to do so as it invariably occurs on his days off.
While tesifying is part of the job, the time needed for it is not covered in
the normal salary. If anyone has a problem with paying court fees that pay
for the officer to come in and testify.....well, all you have to do is
follow the little numbers on the signs alongside the road.

Why is it illegal to swing wide? Many driveways, especially in crowded
areas, are quite narrow and it is impossible to turn into them unless you
go a bit wide. So for these narrow driveways, the only practicle way to
enter them is by going to the left first and then turning right. Of couse,
you should have your right turn signal on to make sure the drivers behind
you understand what you are doing.

I guess some people apply the techniques of driving a SUV/truck
to driving a sedan, perhaps out of subconscious habit.
They swing out right first before turning left and vice-versa.
I am apprehensive they'll side-swipe me in an adjacent lane.

In article ,
says...
Why is it illegal to swing wide? Many driveways, especially in crowded
areas, are quite narrow and it is impossible to turn into them unless you
go a bit wide. So for these narrow driveways, the only practicle way to
enter them is by going to the left first and then turning right. Of couse,
you should have your right turn signal on to make sure the drivers behind
you understand what you are doing.

I guess some people apply the techniques of driving a SUV/truck
to driving a sedan, perhaps out of subconscious habit.
They swing out right first before turning left and vice-versa.
I am apprehensive they'll side-swipe me in an adjacent lane.

True, but some driveways are really narrow and require you swing wide even
in a small sedan. As long as you stay on your side of the road and signal
properly, this should not be a problem.
-------------
Alex

On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill)

Carless driving would be golfing, woudn't it?

"Al Lewis" wrote in message
...
On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill)

Carless driving would be golfing, woudn't it?

Only if you don't make the fairway...

-= swatcop =-

"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."

On 9 Oct 2003 20:39:43 -0700, (Bill)

A few clarifications.
A. I have no intention to get off easy. It may cost me more financially to
go to court. However, I felt that my car was hit and it is
not fair that I have to pay a fine (I know life is never fair :-( ). I just
could not figure out what went wrong. Hence my question was whether I
was at fault. Thanx to Mattew Russotto pointing out that a driver
should stay as close to the right curb as possible when making right turn.

B. I did not try to pass her on the right side. At least I did not have
the chance yet. Even when the officer handed me the ticket, he also
said that he did not think I was trying to pass her on the right.

C. I know I was not going too fast because of the skid mark, but I think
because of skid mark, the officer concluded that I was driving too fast.
I could not find any information on what a reasonable length of
skid mark should be.


After reading reading the discussion, I decided to plea not guilty. I have not
decided whether to get an attorney. In the worst case, I pay the fine, have
two points and higher insurance. I just do not feel right to plea guilty if
I was not at fault in particular I was nearly hurt.


It doesn't matter - you were either going too fast, already passing her
on the right, or both.

Same thing happened to me, except the little Honda that hit my rear
wheel was pretty bad off, while damage to my car was minimal (replace
hubcap). He was clearly at fault. The only difference was, I was
turning into a parking lot.

Thanx again.
BW



(Bill) wrote in message . com...
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court.

It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way).
The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The
speed
requirement is 35 miles/hr.

I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I
stayed
close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw
the car
in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I
immediately
swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her
passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a
right turn to her home.


| |
| |
______| |
-- this is her driveway
/||
______
| her car hit my car
|
|

She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house
screaming
at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I
was not.
However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark
of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to
stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I
was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police
report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite
sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think
she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of
the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn
into
her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and
confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I
stay far left enough.


From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads

"A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and
circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to
endanger, a
person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving."


Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will
happen
if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still
have to
pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ?
I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance.

thanx for the advice.

BW

...a vehicle may use the roadway to make a right turn leaving that roadway
and not return to the original traffic flow.
Driving on the shoulder for a longer period of time may be a violation
(Reckless).
According to your Letter B... If it appeared you were making a right turn
then the ofcr would be wrong in writing that in all the states I ever worked
with.
Now, any skid marks listed in Lett C, Is really bad news. Judges do not
like a Not Guilty with a physical evidence of a violation at the scene.

"Al Lewis" wrote in message
...
On 9 Oct 2003 20:39:43 -0700, (Bill)

A few clarifications.
A. I have no intention to get off easy. It may cost me more financially
to
go to court. However, I felt that my car was hit and it is
not fair that I have to pay a fine (I know life is never fair :-( ). I
just
could not figure out what went wrong. Hence my question was whether I
was at fault. Thanx to Mattew Russotto pointing out that a driver
should stay as close to the right curb as possible when making right
turn.

B. I did not try to pass her on the right side. At least I did not have
the chance yet. Even when the officer handed me the ticket, he also
said that he did not think I was trying to pass her on the right.

C. I know I was not going too fast because of the skid mark, but I think
because of skid mark, the officer concluded that I was driving too
fast.
I could not find any information on what a reasonable length of
skid mark should be.


After reading reading the discussion, I decided to plea not guilty. I
have not
decided whether to get an attorney. In the worst case, I pay the fine,
have
two points and higher insurance. I just do not feel right to plea guilty
if
I was not at fault in particular I was nearly hurt.


It doesn't matter - you were either going too fast, already passing her
on the right, or both.

Same thing happened to me, except the little Honda that hit my rear
wheel was pretty bad off, while damage to my car was minimal (replace
hubcap). He was clearly at fault. The only difference was, I was
turning into a parking lot.

Thanx again.
BW



(Bill) wrote in message
. com...
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court.

It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way).
The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The
speed
requirement is 35 miles/hr.

I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I
stayed
close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw
the car
in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I
immediately
swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her
passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a
right turn to her home.


| |
| |
______| |
-- this is her driveway
/||
______
| her car hit my car
|
|

She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house
screaming
at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I
was not.
However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark
of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to
stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I
was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police
report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite
sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think
she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of
the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn
into
her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and
confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I
stay far left enough.


From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads

"A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and
circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to
endanger, a
person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving."


Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will
happen
if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still
have to
pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ?
I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance.

thanx for the advice.

BW

Jesus, is this thread still active?!?!?! Let it go.



Paul Vina





"G R Jenks" wrote in message
news:eRJpb.3295$7B2.2768@fed1read04...
..a vehicle may use the roadway to make a right turn leaving that roadway
and not return to the original traffic flow.
Driving on the shoulder for a longer period of time may be a violation
(Reckless).
According to your Letter B... If it appeared you were making a right turn
then the ofcr would be wrong in writing that in all the states I ever
worked
with.
Now, any skid marks listed in Lett C, Is really bad news. Judges do not
like a Not Guilty with a physical evidence of a violation at the scene.

"Al Lewis" wrote in message
...
On 9 Oct 2003 20:39:43 -0700, (Bill)

A few clarifications.
A. I have no intention to get off easy. It may cost me more
financially
to
go to court. However, I felt that my car was hit and it is
not fair that I have to pay a fine (I know life is never fair :-( ).
I
just
could not figure out what went wrong. Hence my question was whether
I
was at fault. Thanx to Mattew Russotto pointing out that a driver
should stay as close to the right curb as possible when making right
turn.

B. I did not try to pass her on the right side. At least I did not have
the chance yet. Even when the officer handed me the ticket, he also
said that he did not think I was trying to pass her on the right.

C. I know I was not going too fast because of the skid mark, but I
think
because of skid mark, the officer concluded that I was driving too
fast.
I could not find any information on what a reasonable length of
skid mark should be.


After reading reading the discussion, I decided to plea not guilty. I
have not
decided whether to get an attorney. In the worst case, I pay the fine,
have
two points and higher insurance. I just do not feel right to plea
guilty
if
I was not at fault in particular I was nearly hurt.


It doesn't matter - you were either going too fast, already passing her
on the right, or both.

Same thing happened to me, except the little Honda that hit my rear
wheel was pretty bad off, while damage to my car was minimal (replace
hubcap). He was clearly at fault. The only difference was, I was
turning into a parking lot.

Thanx again.
BW



(Bill) wrote in message
. com...
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court.

It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each
way).
The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The
speed
requirement is 35 miles/hr.

I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and
I
stayed
close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw
the car
in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I
immediately
swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her
passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a
right turn to her home.


| |
| |
______| |
-- this is her driveway
/||
______
| her car hit my car
|
|

She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house
screaming
at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I
was not.
However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid
mark
of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to
stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I
was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police
report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite
sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think
she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of
the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a
turn
into
her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and
confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I
stay far left enough.


From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads

"A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and
circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to
endanger, a
person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving."


Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will
happen
if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still
have to
pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ?
I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance.

thanx for the advice.

BW