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  #81   Report Post  
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Walt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Laurence Payne wrote:

Fuse orientation. If this
made a difference (in an AC circuit, for goodness' sake:-) there's
only one explanation.


An asymetrical waveform from the power company? (c:

//Walt
  #82   Report Post  
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Dave Platt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

In article ,
Geoff@work wrote:

fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a
little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about
equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production,
I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!),


Um, equipment faults are not usually 'defects in production'. They are also
anomolies that can develop of time as components age, mis-use scenarios
stress components over time, a sudden mis-use scenario occurs, or some
external agent causes the equipment's integrity to be compromised.


Agreed.

As a specific example: some time ago I purchased a military radio
test set - an RF generator. Beautifully built, rugged design, in
excellent physical condition. I tried it out once or twice and it
worked very nicely.

A couple of weeks ago I pulled it out, put it on the bench, plugged it
in, and turned on the power. CLICK! My whole power-strip shut off.
The ground-fault interruptor had triggered.

I opened up the box and checked it out. Didn't see any problems.
Reset the GFCI, turned on the power, and the oscillator started up and
oscillated.

Shut it down, closed up the case, turned it on again. CLICK. Ground
fault again.

Opened it up again, and found the problem. The outer contact on the
fuseholder was bent a bit away from the body of the fuseholder. Under
just the right set of conditions, it could flex enough to contact the
inside of the oscillator's outer metal case, and create a
neutral-to-ground short circuit. [Why they chose to put the fuse on
the neutral side of the line is another good question...]

May very well have existed from the time the device was made (to
military specs, no less), or the short might just recently have
developed due to age and stress and flexing of the wires. In most
cases, no harm would have come from it - neutral and ground voltages
are close enough together that there probably wouldn't have been a
shock hazard.

However, if this oscillator had *ever* been plugged into a three-prong
outlet whose "hot" and "neutral" were reversed (and these are not
uncommon), there would have been a nasty shower of sparks and the fuse
would have blown. If the fuse had been defeated by a jumper, there
could well have been a fire, or the person holding the case might have
received a fatal shock.

Fuses, GFCIs, and so forth are put into electronics devices
in order to handle the improbable and unexpected. You usually don't
need them. When you do, they can save your life and property.

Deliberately defeating fuses, breakers, safety switches, GFCIs, and so
forth... well, I think it's a really poor idea. 99.99% of the time,
you get away with it. The other fraction of a percent, you end up
dead or injured, or (perhaps worse) living the rest of your live with
the knowledge that your bright idea / shortcut ended up injuring or
killing an innocent person, burning down someone's home, etc.

Facing a crushing civil suit for wrongful death, negligent homicide,
etc. is another potential (and painful) outcome.

My advice: don't do it.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
  #83   Report Post  
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote:
wrote:
Per Stromgren wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 10:49:47 -0800,
wrote:

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots

If we are such idiots, why do you ask *us* questions?


You're obviously too stupid to understand the subtleties of ANYTHING,
aren't you? You've taken my comments about your stupidity OUT OF
CONTEXT (look up what this means, idiot). My words dont work that way.
In doing so, you are trying to twist my meaning, in order to appear to
win an argument you're engaging in with me. I came here to ask a
-technical- question only. I got met immediately with hostility and
insults. Yet I did NOT ask what people thought about the audibility of
this or that, because I know better than to try to engage in a
meaningful debate with low level wanna-be engineers and techie zealots.
Its like trying to convince a Jehovas Witness that God doesn't actually
exist. The bottom line of the problem is, that you RATs think that you
are "smart", if not brilliant, because have read technical information
on audio, and that anyone that hasn't, must succumb to whatever you
believe... because only you "understand how it all works". You then
(predicatably) proceed to ridicule and deride anyone that says ANYTHING
not conforming to your understanding of "how it all works" in audio.
The more they hold on to their opinions, the more you try to ridicule
them -- instead of keeping an open mind and trying to understand the
phenomenon (that is new to you) any further, for your own educational
purposes.

So I call you "stupid" not because I think I know everything about
audio and you don't. I call you "stupid" because YOU think you know
everything about audio, and that I don't. (RATs here in this thread
have stupidly said I dont even understand the basic function of what a
fuse is, and what its doing in a piece of audio equipement...). And I
also call you people "stupid", because every single one of you that
mocked me for even thinking fuses have an audible effect, provided not
a SINGLE shred of evidence to back up your groundless assertion. Yet,
this is EXACTLY what you people would demand of others in a debate. You
simply dismissed the very notion of me being correct on this, with
nothing but your stupid vigorous denials. Not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU has
actually tested my fuse tweak. And yet you have no end of stupid
opinions about it.

THIS, my friend, is what makes you people STUPID. The dogmatic
adherence to a preconceived set of beliefs, the fight and refusal to
let go of any of them, even if it might take 2 minutes of your time to
determine their validity. Of course, you take stupid to new levels, by
then arguing that even if one of you idiots could figure out how to
perform the tweak experiment (ie. which device opens the amp cover and
where the fuse holder lies...), you wouldn't do it anyway, because you
would just be putting yourself under the spell of the infamous "placebo
effect".... Now THAT is why I call you stupid. Because it isn't idiots
like you that advance the state of audio, since you fools have already
fooled yourself into believing that the only audible effects in audio
is what is already known by the majority.

Which brings me to another reason I call you people stupid: having the
sheer idiocy to mock and criticize Yves Bernard André, a successful
audiophile engineer on the forefront of the business, when none of you
idiots have ever designed an audiophile amplfiier that comes close to
sounding like his worst effort in your entire lives. All you wanna-be
engineer idiots can do is reveal yourselves to be jealous of an audio
engineer who is infintely more succesful and smarter than you people
are. And who KNOWS, as I do, that fuses have an audible quality
(although I did not do my tweak based on his knowledge, since I only
learned about the custom fuses in his amps after I did my experiment).

If there isn't enough here for me to explain how and why you and your
zealot buddies are imbeciles, please let me know, and I'll elaborate
further. Ive really only touched the surface of the extent of what
fools you people are.


It seems from my point of view that you are the one having a rather
limited amount of IQ.


Of course it does. No surprise there. But consider this: if you ARE the
idiot I say you are, how the **** would you know? Remember, you're too
much of a fool to realize what an idiot you are, and that I might know
something about audio that you're too stupid to know or find out for
yourself. Here's a clue for you: So far, I'm the ONLY ONE HERE that has
anything close to "proof" that validates what I'm saying. You have
provided NONE. Ergo, you're just another idiot on the net, flapping
your gums.

The ones you call "idiots" haven proven over and
over again to be rather clever... We haven't seen such proof about
you, I'm afraid.


Are you playing games again? Where the **** in this thread has any of
you idiots "proven over and over again" that your vigorous denials
about the audibility of fuses have been proven true? I'm sorry I must
have missed the details of the trials. Show me the posts that I missed
that contained the so-called "proof", idiot. Because all I've seen in
60 messages is a confederacy of religious audio dunces all arguing
about how full of **** I am, without bothering to offer a shred of
anything to argue against it.

My vote goes for troll. He doesn't even have the guts to tell us his
name.


It doesn't surprise me that you're too stupid to read a message header
either. Hint: its not at the bottom..... My vote goes for mindless
imbecile, and that's all you've proven yourself to be.


Per.


I bow to your superior knowledge.


Somehow, I find it hard to be graced by that. Seems that grovelling
fools are no better than plain vanilla fools. It may surprise you to
know I could care less about your opinions on this, or what you will
and wont acknowledge.

I salute your ability to rant incoherently.


Its only "incoherent" if you're too stupid to undertand it, and it's
only a "rant" if you're too stupid to follow it.

You have shown us all to be imbeciles.


Well you have yet to prove otherwise, but that isnt my goal.
Unfortunately, youre still too stupid to realize that I have nothing to
prove to the lot of you. If you don't believe something is audible in
audio because it does not conform to your audio religion, you have only
to prove this to yourselves. I even urged you to do this in this thread
by mentioning how easy it was to replace the fuse in an amp with a
better alternative. I believe youre all too scared to have your
religious beliefs questioned. Just like all religious zealots down
throughout history, who get irate (or kill you....) when you tell them
their religious beliefs are false.

On the contrary, I happen to have no problem whatsoever with any of you
telling me that fuses cant possibly have an audible effect, and that
there is no way shape or form that I just finished advancing the sound
quality of my amp after placing it in a freezer for a day, or that
removing the heatsink will never improve the sound of my amp, or that
cutting notches in a plug blade can not possibly have an effect on the
sound of my audio equipment, or that there is no way in hell that
cutting the corners of the circuit board will ever have an audible
effect, etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, but YOU are the ones that have shown to have serious mental
problems with audio concepts that are new to you and that you know
nothing about, given the size of this thread and the amount of attacks
against me for what started out as an innocent technical query. Your
condesecion notwithstanding, the problem were seeing here is that I am
at a FAR more advanced level of understanding about audio than you, or
your cohorts are on this techie audio group (throughout history, those
in the avant garde area of any movement were never treated any more
kindly by the conservative-thinking "status quo" types than we've seen
here on this group in this thread...). Its just not the same area of
understanding.

Because one thing you're too stupid to realize, is that there is more
than one field of understanding about audio. I can think of two
divisions: practical and technical. Im sure you and many others here
are at a more advanced state in your understanding of the technical
side of audio, which is why I thought itd be a good place to ask my
question. But what you dont understand is, "technical" only goes so
far. The rest, and there is a lot of it, is either poorly understood,
little understood, or not at all. I've spent most of my life dealing
with the PRACTICAL side of audio, something it is blatantly evident
that you and others Ive seen here know little if anything about. Your
refusal to even test this 2-minute experiment on fuses speaks volumes
to me about that.

Because your experiences with audio is mostly theoretical, and
likewise, your listening skills are very likely to be poor (this is SO
typical of engineers Ive tested, espeically those who do little or no
subjective R&D, and Ive tested MANY), I'm aware that your understanding
of audio is going to be very limited. So if it makes you feel better to
"believe" you know better than others because of your knowledge of the
theoretical side, and to "believe" the theoretical side is all that
counts in audio because it otherwise confuses you too much to not be
able to understand things as easily as youd like to, I have no problem
with that. Be as stupid as you want to be. Its a free world! Continue
to believe that in the guise of believing YOURSELF to be "superior",
that all other audio enthusiasts with a lesser technical background
should bow to you (otherwise, theyre fools...). Just dont look so
shocked and outraged next time someone comes along and challenges your
beliefs about audio. They're really not trying to steal your security
blanket away. They simply know things that you don't, and while you
sputter your predictable condescending lectures about placebos, abx
tests, and how insane it is to make such "claims", they're secretly
tapping you on the head and going "there, there now little boy.... its
okay.... i understand that you don't understand how ignorant you are of
such things....". Have a nice day.

  #84   Report Post  
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Walt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote:

crap snipped


Nope.

//Walt
  #85   Report Post  
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mc
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:


*Chuckle*

thread that I did the same tweak to other equipment, and the results
were the SAME. That rules out your stupid attempts to rationalize what
you don't understand. I just listened again to my preamp, before


What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon
you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it.





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mc
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

But my local engineer or contractor HELPED me solder the jumper wire
across the fuse holder contacts? (Just kidding!). Thanks for taking the
time to explain in detail the many ways I might fry using solder for a
fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a
little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about
equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production,
I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!),


On the contrary, it is getting just old enough for the electrolytic
capacitors to short.

BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on. But
for the sake of the audience I tried to discuss the technical issue that you
brought up.


  #88   Report Post  
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mc
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real,
what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? Was it
accompanied by a change in the output voltage from the amplifier's power
supply? How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the
experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic
capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? What was the
nature of the change in the audio output -- have you measured distortion,
frequency response, etc.? Have you compared old and new fuses with the same
electrical ratings? Can anyone other than you hear the difference?


  #89   Report Post  
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


mc wrote:

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:


*Chuckle*


What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon
you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it.


I believe you did suggest this, and many here were blatant about saying
I did not hear what I know I heard. I don't know if that included you,
I'm not going to re-read all of your messages to me. But I recall
you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse.
That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that
you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to
explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio
works, because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in
your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could
easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment.
Then instead of responding to this, you cut out that bit in your reply
above and responded with a typically mindless retort of "chuckle".
Which rather than showing yourself to be a great thinker, makes you
appear to be a dizzy fool.


BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on.


No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out in mid-stream,
after some truly dumbas fool among you got so shocked by the idea that
a fuse can be audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to
admit this could be true. Furthermore, how can something "probable" be
"evident" and "evident all along" even? You're really not the brightest
bulb in the box, are you?

I admit I was putting you idiots on about having the fuseless amp in my
baby's room, but that's it. I was serious about everything else,
including the fact that I was asking about the risks involved of
running an amp without fuse, because I found the sound much improved
without it. But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of
writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible
effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net
about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses. I guess you
could say I "forgot" that techies that hang around here are not
audiophiles by any stretch. By the looks of things, you're just a bunch
of old farts with "test benches", and excited more about the technical
aspects of audio gear, than the fact that they are meant to reproduce
music. I used to be that way when I was an idiot like yourself,
starting out in the hobby. But that was a hell of a long time ago.

YES, you people are a form of temporary amusement to me, ever since you
started attacking me over my query. The first attack on me and all
subsequent ones, was like having thumb tacks thrown at you by midgets.
You want to say, "what the hell do these people think theyr'e doing?".
But that doesn't mean I came here to "troll" anyone. I simply responded
with the instant hostility I was greeted with on this group, in kind.
YOU people are the "trolls", as I see it. However, even if that were
true, I'd say with 88 responses in my thread, I'm a pretty damn
successful troll. Even after demanding that fools with nothing
intelligent to respond with stay out of my thread, it seems I still
managed to "troll" that many of you, according to your groundless
theories. So what does that say about you lot of silly old twits, that
you can be so easily manipulated by someone who's never even posted on
your newsgroup? What else do you think it says to intelligent and truly
objective readers about how "objective" you people are, when you invent
motives for me (the "troll" accusation), then declare that you all know
this to be true, after providing no solid evidence of your claim?

Now on the other hand, which one of you blithering idiots can call
yourselves a successful audiophile amplifier designer? Thought so. Yet
you find no qualms about mocking and deriding successful audio
engineers, because even when they've proven their theories, you call
them fools. That's what makes your kind -true- fools and pathetic
newsgroup junkies.


But for the sake of the audience I tried to discuss the technical issue
that you brought up


You didn't try to "discuss" anything. You just gave me your supposedly
"expert opinion" about what you thought I had heard and why you thought
that, and after I asked you to keep your lame placebo theories to
yourself and find out for yourself if what I say is true, you ignored
that, snipped it out and "chuckled" like a blithering idiot. Don't even
pretend that you or the rest of your cronies are "objective" or
open-minded.

My theory is that (if the effect was real) the original fuse in the amp. was getting old
and had increased in resistance substantially. The comparison that is called for is
original fuse vs. new fuse of same specifications.


Look Grimley, I already told you, this effect was heard under THREE
different components; amp, preamp, cd player. That eliminates your
idiotic theories about how I am not hearing what I know I'm hearing,
because the fuse is old or whatever. How ****ing stupid do you have to
be that I have to explain this three times to you? Besides that, the
claim everyone is making against me here is that no way on earth could
a fuse be audible. Therefore, if you're claiming I didn't hear what I
know I heard, it should not matter how old the fuse is anyway.

Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real,
what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made?


"Measurements"? Are you serious? I'm not a gear head, I'm an
audiophile, mate. This may strike you as odd for one to do this, but I
LISTENED to the damned thing, you dumb fool. Has that ever occurred to
any of you, I wonder? To actually LISTEN to audio equipment to
determine what is and isn't good, since that's how it's designed to
work? Geez, its like talking to a class of kindergarten kids around
here.

Was it accompanied by a change in the output voltage from the amplifier's power supply?


Who says this change will or wont produce the difference I heard, and
that the diff can be measured this way? But look egghead, if you want
to take measurements, be my guest. Assuming that YOU are not trolling
ME, all you have to do is perform the same experiment with a silver
solder fuse and measure whatever your heart desires.

How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be
improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse?


No, this is more of your crackpot theories to explain what you think
doesn't exist and won't attempt to find out for yourself. I had been
using the amp regularly for over 6 months. There are also a million
other things I did to this amp that changed the sound and that aren't
related to "capacitors reforming".... but God knows, I am not going to
even try to inform you about those experiments, since I know enough
about putting pearls before swine.


What was the nature of the change in the audio output --


I can only talk about the changes in a subjective listening test. This
was but one of many tweak experiments I conducted recently and it was a
few days ago, so I cant recall 100% any more what the exact
characteristics were, and both the paper clip and the silver solder
exhibited different characteristics (but both were better than the
original fuse). Speaking in general terms, "everything was better" when
I used an alternative to the fuse. Resolution was noticeably higher,
the music was more enjoyable to listen to. I'm sure I could have
discovered another material for my alternative makeshift fuse that
would have been superior to both the paper clip and the silver solder.
But thanks to you jerkoffs on this group screaming at me about killing
my family, my neighbors, and going to helll in a firey blaze, I never
pursued this experiment. Not really because I was scared about dying in
a fire or anything, but because the old amp is actually my wifes, and
she has a strong emotional attachment to it, and I don't want to
destroy it, if I don't have to....

Don't even THINK to ask me to do double blind tests or the like. I
could not put it any clearer than to tell you I do not give the
slightest **** about whether you or anyone here believes me or not. I
did not come here to debate tweaks with dogmatic fools who think we
reached the pinnacle of audio 30 years ago when they finished their
engineering training. I'm only responding to defend what I know to be
true (since my findings were attacked), and to say that any further
"proof" at this point must come from you, when you decide to stop being
lazy and conduct your own experiments. Although I doubt any of you
chicken****s would have the guts to post positive findings on something
like this in this group, with all your little boy comrades eyeing you.

have you measured distortion, frequency response, etc.?
Have you compared old and new fuses with the same electrical ratings?


I only compared fuses of different ratings, not having two the same on
hand. Nothing stopping you from conducting this experiment, though, or
the ones on measurements.

Can anyone other than you hear the difference?


Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after
deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic
changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your
buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills.


Instead of asking dumb questions like this, you can answer it yourself
by subjectively testing yourself to see if there is any validity to it.
But even if you can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean the
difference isn't there; only that you're too old and deaf to hear it.
However, it does prove the condition to yourself, if you are curious
about my experiment. It may sadden you to learn this, but that's the
best anyone can do in this hobby, kiddo.

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mc
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote in message
oups.com...

mc wrote:

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:


*Chuckle*


What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the
phenomenon
you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it.


I believe you did suggest this, and many here were blatant about saying
I did not hear what I know I heard. I don't know if that included you,
I'm not going to re-read all of your messages to me.


So you don't recall what I said, but you'll insult me for it anyhow?
*chuckle again*

But I recall
you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse.
That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that
you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to
explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio
works,


Why on earth shouldn't I try to find explanations for phenomena that occur?

What response did you want from me?

Apparently, you're angry at the people who disbelieved you, and also angry
at the people who thought you might be telling the truth and wanted to try
to figure out how this strange phenomenon might work. Whom are you not angry
at?

because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in
your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could
easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment.


Why not tell us a little more about your own results? After all, you are
making extraordinary claims.

Which rather than showing yourself to be a great thinker, makes you
appear to be a dizzy fool.


I gather your real hobby is insulting people.

BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on.


admit this could be true. Furthermore, how can something "probable" be
"evident" and "evident all along" even? You're really not the brightest
bulb in the box, are you?


It can certainly be evident that something is probably the case. For
instance, right now, a member of my family has a temperature of 101 F and I
think it is evident that she probably has the flu. (I.e., something is
evident which implies a high probability of something else.) Where did you
study logic?

But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of
writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible
effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net
about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses.


I hadn't, except for speaker fuses. Can you point me to some references?
You *do* mean the incoming AC power fuse, don't you?

YES, you people are a form of temporary amusement to me, ever since you
started attacking me over my query.


Obviously, your real hobby is insulting people. *chuckle again*

Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real,
what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made?


"Measurements"? Are you serious? I'm not a gear head, I'm an
audiophile, mate. This may strike you as odd for one to do this, but I
LISTENED to the damned thing, you dumb fool. Has that ever occurred to
any of you, I wonder? To actually LISTEN to audio equipment to
determine what is and isn't good, since that's how it's designed to
work? Geez, its like talking to a class of kindergarten kids around
here.


But do you admit that there is such a thing as measurements, and that if
you've discovered an unusual effect, measurements might help you understand
how it works?

Or are real audiophile amplifiers supposed to be designed and built without
the use of test equipment?

How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and
could it be
improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after
a long period of disuse?


No, this is more of your crackpot theories to explain what you think
doesn't exist and won't attempt to find out for yourself. I had been
using the amp regularly for over 6 months. There are also a million
other things I did to this amp that changed the sound and that aren't
related to "capacitors reforming".... but God knows, I am not going to
even try to inform you about those experiments, since I know enough
about putting pearls before swine.


The insult density here is truly amazing. Statements about my alleged
stupidity (etc.) are outnumbering statements about audio about four to one.
Let's see whether this ratio holds up as you continue... (Readers wishing
to keep track of it will have to refer to the message I'm quoting, as I
don't wish to quote the rest of it here.)

Can anyone other than you hear the difference?


Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after
deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic
changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your
buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills.


Blind test, or did she know which one was supposed to sound better? And how
do you talk to her when she questions your judgments? The same way you talk
to us?




  #91   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote ...
No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out
in mid-stream, after some truly dumbas fool among
you got so shocked by the idea that a fuse can be
audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to
admit this could be true.


FYI: the newsgroup news:rec.audio.opinion was created
specifically for discussion of "audible fuses" and other
such dubious things.

Perhaps you didn't notice that this is a "tech" newsgroup.
If you had lurked for a day or two, or had done any sort
of research, you would have known that your claim of
"audible fuses" would find virtually no takers here.
  #92   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Richard Crowley wrote:
wrote ...
No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out
in mid-stream, after some truly dumbas fool among
you got so shocked by the idea that a fuse can be
audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to
admit this could be true.


FYI: the newsgroup news:rec.audio.opinion was created
specifically for discussion of "audible fuses" and other
such dubious things.

Perhaps you didn't notice that this is a "tech" newsgroup.
If you had lurked for a day or two, or had done any sort
of research, you would have known that your claim of
"audible fuses" would find virtually no takers here.


Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this
thread was a query of a technical nature, and that the question of the
audibility of fuses was raised by some technogeek, not unlike yourself
I'm sure, who had a problem with a small part of my query in which I
mentioned this aspect of the fuse in passing. Perhaps you also didn't
notice I pointed this out five times in this thread to others. Perhaps
you also didn't notice that I wrote in my last message in this thread,
I am not LOOKING for "takers", as you call it. That I could not care
less which one of you fools does or doesn't believe whatever I or
anyone says. As for "virtually no takers", there are about 90 responses
to my original message. Why don't you take another look at what you
just said, you stupid nitwit.

Please learn to read before you comment or better yet, shut the heck up
if you have nothing worth saying. And have a nice day.

  #93   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


mc wrote:


So you don't recall what I said, but you'll insult me for it anyhow? *chuckle again*


*Chuckle* some more. That makes you sound so clever, really. Listen
carefully Chuckles: I didn't insult you for what you didn't say. I
insulted you for what you did. I'm sure you have your own special
reasons for insulting me.

But I recall you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse.
That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that
you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to
explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio
works,


Why on earth shouldn't I try to find explanations for phenomena that occur?
What response did you want from me?


You're really THAT stupid, aren't you? As many times as I've made the
point, I can't believe I would have to explain this to you... The
explanations you are "trying to find" are all THEORETICAL. I told you
50 different ways, get off your lazy dogmatic ass and find those
answers for yourself by trying the experiment. If the problem is you
need someone to explain to you how to open your amplifier and replace
the fuse, why don't you ask on rec.audio.tech? You'll get plenty
messages telling you what an idiot you are for not knowing how to
replace a fuse, and plenty more telling you their 6 year-old can
replace a fuse. But maybe after 90 messages or so, someone might
explain the procedure to you. Then you'll be on your way to answering
your questions.

Apparently, you're angry at the people who disbelieved you,
and also angry at the people who thought you might be
telling the truth and wanted to try to figure out how
this strange phenomenon might work. Whom are you not angry at?


I'm not angry at anyone. The problem here is, you and your RAT cronies
are always too stupid to realize your presumptions are not truth.


because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment.


Why not tell us a little more about your own results?


I already did in my last message to you. You don't read English very
well, do you?

After all, you are making extraordinary claims.


No I'm not. When established and respected audiophile amplifier
designers support the fundamental principles behind the procedure I
mentioned, there is nothing "extraordinary" about it. The only thing I
find "extraordinary", is that you incompetent nitwits can go on for
sixteen days and three thousand paragraphs, screaming about how wrong
everyone is to "claim" they hear things that you can't find anything
about in your very limited knowledge of music reproduction, while you
offer not a shred of evidence to support your arguments, nor any
willingness whatsoever on your part, to pursue scientific curiousity
and reproduce the test.

In other words, you and your buddies are all dumb, lazy mother****ers
who have apparently grown so fat and stupid from being newsgroup
junkies, you wouldn't recognize any new truths in audio if they were
handed to you on a silver platter. And apparently, you're too stupid to
figure things out for yourselves.


I gather your real hobby is insulting people.


No, that's just a sideline. I don't suffer fools gladly.

It can certainly be evident that something is probably the case. For instance, right now, a member of my family has a temperature of 101 F and I think it is evident that she
probably has the flu. (I.e., something is evident which implies a high probability of
something else.)


Okay, let me try that one out and see if it works: "It has been evident
all along that you are probably an imbecile". Yeah okay, I guess I can
live with that.

But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses.


I hadn't, except for speaker fuses. Can you point me to some
references? You *do* mean the incoming AC power fuse, don't you?

Yes the AC fuse, and no, I don't recall the exact search terms that
lead me to where some audiophiles were discussing the topic of fuses
sound quality; only that it was an audio forum. However, a 2-second
search of the terms "fuse amp audible" on Google led me to this link
below. Its news to me as well that you can actually buy
audiophile-grade fuses. If you knew how to use a search engine, it
would not have been to you. But I suppose if you knew how to work a
search engine, you'd also know how to replace a fuse with a bit of
solder wire, and you'd be able to understand yourself how this affects
sound quality.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isoclean3/fuses.html

Obviously, your real hobby is insulting people. *chuckle again*


It wasn't a clever line the first time. Do you think that repeating it
makes it more clever? Or that laughing at your lameass cracks enhances
the funny factor? Did you ever wonder why at parties, the only person
laughing at your jokes was you?

Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real, what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made?


But do you admit that there is such a thing as measurements, and that if you've
discovered an unusual effect, measurements might help you understand how it works?


Yes. Emphasis on "might". The problem with attempting to resolve
audibility through objective measurements is, what do you measure, and
how do you know what to measure? There are hundreds of tests you can
perform on gear. What if the test equipment isn't sensitive enough to
measure the phenomenon that empirical evidence confirms? In order to
know exactly what to measure, you have to understand exactly what is
producing the phenomenon we hear. In order to try to understand this,
you have to measure. The two tend to cancel each other out.

And what if the phenomenon in question can't be measured by any test
instrument, because it isn't being produced by a change within the
electronic spectrum? Now you're involved in psychoacoustic theory (and
beyond...), about which I believe little is understood (relatively
speaking), within the realm of music reproduction. For example, what if
some phenomenon produces repeatable changes to our hearing mechanism
but not our hifi system, but nevertheless causes us to perceive changes
in our hifi systems? How the hell are you going to explain that with
your test bench instruments? And if you can't measure it, how quickly
do you figure you will conclude the phenomenon doesn't exist? I can't
always tell if you religious audio zealots start out with forever
closed minds, or if you close them so fast, you can't tell they were
ever opened. How do you measure changes in mood, changes in the
environment, changes on a molecular level, changes in the flow of
electron particles, changes in the movement of the earth's crust? I am
telling you with a straight face that what you don't know about the
phenomenon of the music reproduction system, is more than what you do
know.

The smarter engineers realize this. The stupider ones, as found on RAT,
are more like your typical teenagers, who think that because they
learned something new in school today, they now know more about life
than their mommies and daddies.


Or are real audiophile amplifiers supposed to be designed and built without the
use of test equipment?


sigh If only you knew how tiring that 50 year old arguments can be,
when there are always "new fools" in the audio world, that have yet to
understand the fundamentals. I'm only gonna give you one chance to
understand this, and if you don't get it then, don't look to me any
further: there is no scientific measuring tool more precise, or
relevant to music reproduction, than the human auditory system. All
components in audio are designed and engineered according to a set of
beliefs; let's say they are those held by the designer(s) of the
component. This, to a great extent, explains why components sound
different, and why some sound magical, and others like torture. It even
explains why entire countries, are often thought to produce components
of a particular sonic quality, as compared with competing countries.

Test equipment has its place, but many limitations, and can only tell
you so much. Listen carefully now: it should be used as an AID to
actual listening, not in PLACE of it. Get it, Chuckles? It can be used
to attempt to confirm or understand what you heard. But with
intelligent audiophiles, its common sense to HEAR the phenomenon your
studying, before you attempt to understand it with test instruments.
You haven't done SQUAT but flap your gums so far, over the fuse issue.


How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse?


The insult density here is truly amazing.


Even more amazing... I haven't even STARTED "getting personal". If
Krueger, the resident child pornographer of you RATs, ever shows some
guts and addresses me directly, then you'll start to see "personal".

Statements about my alleged stupidity (etc.) are outnumbering statements about audio about four to one. Let's see whether this ratio holds up as you continue...


Well a least someone's keeping count. There's nothing "alleged" about
your stupidity or your foolishness. If you want to see the ratio climb,
say or do even more stupid things than you already have.

Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills.


Blind test, or did she know which one was supposed to sound better?


No, I never said which one was supposed to sound better, not before,
during or after the test. Nor did I ever mention what exactly we were
testing. However, I did mention after the tests were over, that "there
was this group of imbeciles on a technical audio discussion group I've
been engaged with the last two days", who claim that the series of
phenomenon we just tested, and heard, doesn't actually exist. I get a
kick out of that, every time I test a neophyte and they hear things you
idiots always say can't possibly exist. The thing about neophytes is
that they're usually too ignorant to even understand that there is a
controversy about a phenomenon under test. The thing about audio
techies is that you're all too ignorant to understand that real life
doesn't begin and end within the pages of a textbook, or the
limitations of a test instrument. Its a lot more complicated than your
simple minds can ever grasp.

In fact, every time I improve my system with some tweak or other, I
think about you techno-clowns on these newsgroups and elsewhere, and I
laugh and I laugh some more. I laugh because I know that if I said I
did what I just did and heard what I just heard, you fools will always,
predictably, insist to your last dying breath, "it doesn't exist". But
I walk away always winning, because I have a sound system that sounds
like real music. While you boys have something that no doubt, sounds
like a Russian torture chamber. If you really think I'm going to spend
my life trying to prove to fools like yourself that some phenomenon
does exist, under the exact conditions you will accept as proof, you
think way too highly of yourselves.

And how do you talk to her when she questions your judgments?


She doesn't speak to me disrespectfully, as I was spoken to by all the
little RATs on this newsgroup, if that's what you're asking. I ask her
if she hears a difference, and she tells me she either does or doesn't;
end of story. So your attempt at making a point is misguided, fool.

The same way you talk to us?


Who the **** are YOU to talk? I came here looking for information, I
was insulted right off the bat by you little RATs. One after the other.
I don't see you whining to any of your RAT cohorts about the rude way
they started in on me, do I - hypocrite? I don't get mad me, I get
even.

  #94   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Laurence Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

On 25 Jan 2006 22:38:40 -0800, wrote:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isoclean3/fuses.html

Aren't there laws against this kind of scam? Do they offer any
details of the construction of these directional fuses?
  #95   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff@home
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On 25 Jan 2006 22:38:40 -0800, wrote:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isoclean3/fuses.html

Aren't there laws against this kind of scam? Do they offer any
details of the construction of these directional fuses?


"Each fuse is tested to ensure optimum performance" !!!

Ha ha ha

geoff




  #96   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Peter Larsen
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote:

All I'm asking is for information on what conditions would
cause the amp to catch on fire


A shortut caused by a failed transistor. A transistor WILL fail if its
core temperature gets too high, CORE temperature. All known audiophile
designs aim for heatsinks larger than average consumer designs because
the cost is less of an issue.

(ie. what exactly can go wrong and what exactly is
flammable inside an amp)


Insulation, laquer, pcb, radiated heat that ignites nearby objects,
worst case a spray of melted copper that ignites nearby objects +
hazardous gasses emitted.

so I can do a risk assessment


I trust you to be void of any capability to so do.

and decide how likely the risk of fire is.


At a guess, 0.8 within 5 years of operation with the output heat sink
removed.

If you understand how a fuse works
yourself, you would be easily able to explain this,


A fuse prevents too large current from being delivered in case of a
shortcut somewhere after the fuse.

other than simply repeating what you've read on a printed
circuit board.


Erm, themn folks here are them folks as writes what is on them printed
circuit boards. Those that have written the "no user serviceable parts,
refer to qualified service personnel" are their lawyers, same lawyers
also no doubt put a full page of warnings in the manual for the amp.
"Replace Fuse only with Fuse of same spec and rating" already is there",
as is "Do not interfere with cooling of amp" and a full page of not-to´s
in drawings with large crosses over for the illiterate.

They have also, as I, seen an amplifier emit smoke for no obvious
reason, which is to say that a large power amp is perfectly able to
start burning, in which case the fuse will stop it by stopping the
current that delivers the heat.

TAke the amp to a qualified repairshop and get it made back into what it
was ex works. If you want to actually improve it, then ask THEM whether
it is possible to retrofit larger capacity, max 50 to 100 percent more,
in the psu and increase the quisciescent current so that the amp
actually gets a wee bit hot when idling with the cooling in place. Both
tweaks may be possible, but understand that it may also be with any
given amp that there are good reasons against them. Standard class AB
amp supposed.

Thermic runaway is a very real risk if quisciescent current is increased
too much, but if the amp can run without cooling while idling now, then
it is likely to be on the low side of specs ex works. Perhaps even
asking them to set it correctly as per the service manual will be what
gives you a real improvement effect. This based on the known fact that
quisciescent current increases when an output stage runs hotter and
giving you the benefit of the doubt.

For sonic improvement the default advice with a pre-existing
installation is: first get the loudpsekaers properly placed in the room,
next fix issues with the room, next look into transduxer quality, and
then, and only then look into electronics quality.

//Walt



Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at:
http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
  #97   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Peter Larsen
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote:

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.


No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.


Have you tried putting a new fuse of the same rating in?

Replacin a fuse with one with a higher rating is one of the certified
ways of voiding fire insurance.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?


You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.


Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power
supply to burn up or catch on fire


A transistor that for some reason fails.

(I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)?


I trust that you have not thought.

As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few
weeks ago I had previously removed the heatsink from the
output transistors in order to improve the sound, and there
was never any overheating problem.


Ah, good idea, the auto-incinerating amp, much better than planned
obsolesence. The cooler transistors run, the better they behave. The
ever so slight chance there is of warm up and/or burn in effects is
related to capacitors re-forming in case they have been unused for too
long.

PUT THE THINGS YOU TOOK OUT BACK IN!
- remember to add new cooling paste,
if do you not know what that is, then
let qualified service personnel assemble
your amp prior to having to pay themn for
also repairing failed components.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at:
http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
  #98   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Tomi Holger Engdahl
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

writes:

Tomi Holger Engdahl
25 jan 07:35 afficher les options

writes:
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).



I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.


Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not
hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like
a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion
or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, did I?


You might not have asked the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, but when posting this kind of things questions to the newsgroups,
you should be prepared to also be ready to take the commends that
doubt the general idea of your modification.

I have gone to the lengths of describing the the dangers of running
the equipment without any fuse. And given few words on why the general
idea of running the equipment without fuse is bad, and does not have
any considerable effect on sound reproduction. If there is any
effect on the exhanging the fuse, then other changing effects around
(mains voltage varitions, equipment temperature, RFI) etc. have much
more effect on sound reproduction than that fuse has!

My experices on the on this field are not just my beliefs.
I have anysed the siautaion on my eariler posting based on
well recognized electrical/electronics circuit theory.
And I have also practical experience: I have designed and built
my own audio equipment, I have repaired some of my own audio equipment etc..
I have operated the same audio equipment on my test bench with
original fuze, with wrong size fuse and even with fuse temporarily
short circuited with piece of wire when ruight fuse has been
missing (typically in well controlled environment where
the equipment is constantly monired..). There are some years
on those experiments, but I don't remeber ever hearing any difference
when changing the mains fuse to another or replacing with short circuit.

Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I
have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it.


I have also pair of ears. And I use them.

I can decide for myself.


You are free to make your won decisions, and we are all
free in this open forums to make our own desicisions
and pos them here if we want. This is a free world and open
public forum.

Since you HAVEN'T heard the effects of this yourself, do
yourself a favor and shut your ****ing trap about things you know
nothing about, next time you offer your opinion on something to
someone.


I haven't heard the difference on my experiments I have made
on my laboratory table. And I have not heard your system so
hard to say.

I am free to offer my opinion on this forum.
As free as you are to express your own.

And I think is know pretty much in the things I talk about here.
I think this there pretty many things in my home country and users
of this discussion group who agree on this with me.

If you did ever want to learn something new and not just
repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct
the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to
formulate your response here.


I have conducted prety many experiment on many audio things..
Experiemtnally tested many things before believing them.

I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.


aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who
thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of
information you've learned about electronics.


You have misjudged me.

You don't know just how
ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know
more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction
than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top
engineer at YBA,


Where have I said that that I claim to be smarter than the too engineer at YBA ?

why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed,
so I can have a listen and compare it?


Name one you designed.

Just to make it easy on you,
I'll compare it to YBAs ****tiest amplifier. If you haven't designed
anything better, then there's another reason for you to shut the ****
up about things you know nothing about.

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.


Wrong guess. I already mentioned elsewhere that I did the same fuse
substitution thing to my other amp, my cd player, etc., it all had the
same effect of improving the sound.


How did the sound really improve ?
Can you describe how did that removing the fuse help.

Like I also said elsewhere in this
thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't
understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according
to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP
guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already.


I don't need to repeat the experiments.

I have hear didfferences between different CD players, amplifiers,
speakes, even between some cables...
Changing the mains fuse to another has not made absolutely no
difference on the sound heard on the systems.

"Guessing" is what people did when they tried to explain why the sky
was leaking, you blithering idiot. "Science" is what led the more
developed man to experiment, find out where the truth lies, and stop
the ****ing guessing. Why is why I will always be way ahead of the
(audio) game than you and your RAT zealots here.


I have done experimenting on many audio things.

And on those experiements I have also learned how easy it is
to fool your hearing by the beliefs.. Ever been in "blind test"
where you just try to hear the difference without previous
knowlege on the things you test...

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!


But I think the important thing here is, "Jesus will forgive me". Hey,
if He can forgive a child pornographer like Arny Krueger, I'm sure he
can forgive me for wanting to improve the sound of my audio system. I'm
not worried about the insurance company paying out, since I don't have
an insurance policy. I.m not worried about getting sued, since the
lawyers would cost more than anything they could ever hope to get out
of me. I'm not worried about killing my neighbors, since I hate my
neighbors (they have a baby kid thats CONSTANTLY crying all the time -
just shutting him up for good might be worth the damage to my
property). And as for that property in question, well I'm currently
developing a "volunatry simplicity" approach, and I'm not attached to
material things any more. So maybe having my things destroyed is
exactly what I need to free myself. Spiritually speaking. And as my
dear old dad always said, "if you never gamble, you never win".


That's your view.

On my viewpoint what you are doing with your equipment is plain stupid
and potentially dangerous! Even if it had some noticeable effect on the
system perfomance (which I very much doubt), I think the risk/reward
ratio is not good on your approach. That's my optinion.

Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...

Maybe todays cheap **** gear, but both these SS amps are over 25 years
old, and they don't look to be close to failing.


Components do age! And you can't see that with your eyes.


As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.
You stupid!


Now that's very rude of you to call me names like that. Especially when
YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. As we shall
see below...


Maybe I as a rude. Sorry on that.
Usually you need to be a little bit rude to weak up people that are
doign stupid dangerous things.

You said that:
"YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about."

Based on the postings you have posted here I think pretty much
same about you.
And I am free to keep my opinion until there is a reason to change that.

Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.


I'm sorry that reality has a way of proving the theoretical world in
which you live to be WRONG you ignoramus, but you can stop blabbing
now, because nothing you've said here has turned out to be true. This
is what I try to drum into the heads of you dumbass wanna-be techies:
when you have NO real-world experience of what you're talking about,


I have real world experice. But you don't seem to believe that.

and you just repeat by rote whatever the hell you've read in Popular
Electronics, that does not make you an expert on ANYTHING.


I don't repeat what I have read in Popular Electronics.
I don't read that magazine..

I can tell
you without flinching that a month ago, I took out the heatsinks in
both the aforementioned preamp and amplifier (the amp had a
particularly massive heatsink, and an equally massive output transistor
array). Why? Because I thought it'd improve the sound. And it most
certainly DID. In BOTH components.


What was your initial jurgement on thinking why removing them would
improve sound ?

So that already shoots down your
theoretical BS about "worse sound easily".


I am talking on experience here.. I have expriemtned with
transistor amplifier circuits... and run transistors without
heatsik when they should have had one... and hard and seen effects
that happen when you run them for some time...
Burned few fingers and transistors back them.

I also removed a wire that
was screwed into the large output transistor array (soldered at the
other end to the underside of the circuit board). I don't know what
that was for (some sort of grounding I would presume), but I do know
that removing it from the surface of the output transistor further
improved the sound.

Next, about the heat: there WAS none. I carefully monitored the heat
output in both the amp and preamp after I took the heatsink out. There
was very little, if any, warmth coming through the grill in the casing
above the heatsink. Thats pretty much normal for this amp, it never got
hot. I played music through the amp all night to test it out, it was
fine the next day. I even touched the output transistors with my bare
fingers after leaving both components on for hours. Guess what, dumbo?
They were no hotter than warm. No "bad smell" (well, no worse than with
this stuff already smelled like!).


Can you tell which specific amplifeir you have modified ?

So much for all your stupid bull****
about how they'll get "much hotter much sooner" and I will fry my amp.


Been there, seen that when transistors fail.

The only thing you wrote that was correct here, is that the parameters
change when transistors get hotter (but NOT in the ways you predicted).
I already knew that from experiences with my Class A amp. That's why I
took out the heatsinks in the first place, genius.

Well, Tomi, I hope you've learned something here about what you don't
know about audio. And if not, then you're even stupider than I give you
credit for.


Nothing particularly new about audio that I would have not known
earlier. Maybe I should have written my earlier posting in a little
bit different format... less theory and more real world experiment
results.

The end of your posting gave a better picture on you.
It seems that you have been pretty careful on your experiments,
and know more on things you do that seemed based on the first posting.
Sorry. It is pretty easy to get wrong impressions on the people
based on their postins.

Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!


Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... see above for why you are a presuptious
fool, and don't know what you're talking about. Ive worked this amp for
over a month without heatsink at loud volumes, day and night, never had
a problem. Im so confident it has no detrimental effect on the amp, Ive
already thrown out the heatsink. My concnlusion is that sometimes these
things are added in order to prevent failures when used in a variety of
ways, but just because theyre desinged in, does not mean they're always
needed.


That can happens on some equipment. There are amplifiers that designed
in such way that there is overuse of all kind of things. Much larger
hetsinks that are needed, overrated components etc.. just to be on
safe side in all cases.

And there are also amplifiers that are pretty much optimized
to provide what is promised with close to minimal cost...
Taking out parts in such design can cause pretty nasty
consequences.

And ive PROVEN they can do more harm than good. Lets see one of
you crackerheads actually prove ANYTHING that youve been saying.
So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...

Wrong again, chumly. If they haven't burnt out after playing loud music
for a months time, then they're simply not going to (not for reasons of
overheating, since they dont get that hot!).


Feel lucky that you have picked such conservatively designed amplifier
that you can take out the heatsinks, and still no overhating on your use.

Surely you must tire of
being wrong all the time... The only chain reaction I see is that when
one of you posts some ignorant BS to me, it incites another to do the
same.
When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..


The only flames I see is from the RATs on this newsgroup because I
dared say something in their presence that contradicts all of your
inane religious beliefs....



--
Tomi Engdahl (
http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/
  #99   Report Post  
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
writes:

Tomi Holger Engdahl
25 jan 07:35 afficher les options

writes:
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).



I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.


Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not
hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like
a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion
or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, did I?


You might not have asked the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, but when posting this kind of things questions to the newsgroups,
you should be prepared to also be ready to take the commends that
doubt the general idea of your modification.


Then if you're going to pick my query apart so you can attack me over
the part you don't like where I mention that removing the fuse made an
audible improvement, you should be "prepared to be ready" to have me
call you an ignorant moron. An ignorant moron pretends to be an expert
on something he knows nothing about, ie. the audible effects of fuses.
This group is filled with such morons.


I have gone to the lengths of describing the the dangers of running
the equipment without any fuse. And given few words on why the general
idea of running the equipment without fuse is bad, and does not have
any considerable effect on sound reproduction. If there is any
effect on the exhanging the fuse, then other changing effects around
(mains voltage varitions, equipment temperature, RFI) etc. have much
more effect on sound reproduction than that fuse has!


LOTS of things that you can do to an amp have an effect on sound
reproduction. Bending every single electronic component soldered to the
circuit board to a degree smaller than can be perceived by the naked
eye will have an effect on sound reproduction that in totality, is
greater than the one of using an alternate fuse. That doesn't mean the
fuse replacement tweak has no significant effect. I tested this tweak
on several components, and I damn well know i heard a significant
effect. Whether you can, I can't vouch for that. But I will say that
they sell audiophile-grade fuses on the net, and if someone is willing
to pay $25 for a fuse, I'm betting that I'm not the only one who can
hear the differences an alternate fuse can make.


My experices on the on this field are not just my beliefs.
I have anysed the siautaion on my eariler posting based on
well recognized electrical/electronics circuit theory.
And I have also practical experience: I have designed and built
my own audio equipment, I have repaired some of my own audio equipment etc..
I have operated the same audio equipment on my test bench with
original fuze, with wrong size fuse and even with fuse temporarily
short circuited with piece of wire when ruight fuse has been
missing (typically in well controlled environment where
the equipment is constantly monired..). There are some years
on those experiments, but I don't remeber ever hearing any difference
when changing the mains fuse to another or replacing with short circuit.


It does not sound like you conducted any specific and controlled tests
on whether the absence of fuse, or change in fuse type, had any audible
effects. It sounds more like you simply jumpered your fuse bridge
because you didn't have an appropriate fuse on hand. Did you go back
and A/B fuse/no-fuse a few times? Since aged audio techies are
notorious for having poor listening skills, you would need to do that a
number of times before you could even hope to lock in on changes. Also,
it would need to be more recent than something that happened a few
years ago that you can barely remember.


Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I
have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it.


I have also pair of ears. And I use them.


Unfortunately, your pair of ears are not as sensitive as my pair of
ears, as you say you can't recall hearing a difference when using an
alternate fuse. Yet I, Yves Bernard Andre, and countless audiophiles
(including those who buy high grade replacement fuses for their gear)
CAN hear these differences, easily. There is even a review on high
grade fuses in which the reviewer started out as skeptical as you are,
but eventually found that alternate fuses did make a positive
difference.

You are free to make your won decisions, and we are all
free in this open forums to make our own desicisions
and pos them here if we want. This is a free world and open
public forum.


Seems not everyone here recognizes that, since you all seem to think
that people need your mindless and baseless opinions before they can
decide wether something is audible or not. I even have people here
SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS to me, in a not-so-subtle way of offering their
opinion on what I should or shouldn't do.


And I think is know pretty much in the things I talk about here.
I think this there pretty many things in my home country and users
of this discussion group who agree on this with me.


Which brings me to another point. Some other idiot here spouted the
notion to me that the "majority of audio engineers" do not take the
fuse audibility into account, with the implication that Yves Bernard
Andre, a world-class audiophile engineer, is a deluded moron for using
custom made fuses, because the "majority of audio engineers do not take
the fuse audibility into account". There is an extreme danger with the
kind of moronic thinking that goes on among you technophiles, whereby
you believe an opinion to be correct, simply because your colleagues
believe it, and it is supported by the "majority". Major advances in
audio were made throughout its history, only because someone more
brilliant than you people thought "outside the box", that your very
narrow minds live in.

If you did ever want to learn something new and not just
repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct
the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to
formulate your response here.


I have conducted prety many experiment on many audio things..
Experiemtnally tested many things before believing them.


I'll bet I have conducted far more than you have, in your lifetime. But
if all you ever did was try to measure the conditions, your listening
skills never improve.


I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.


aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who
thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of
information you've learned about electronics.


You have misjudged me.





You don't know just how
ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know
more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction
than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top
engineer at YBA,


Where have I said that that I claim to be smarter than the too engineer at YBA ?


If you claim that fuses are not and can not have an audible effect, as
everyone else here does, than you claim to know more than YBA, since he
has tested this and even specifies special fuses for his amps. One of
your colleagues, Arnold Krueger, one of the most ignorant and deranged
audio techs that I've ever witnessed in my life, in this very thread,
trashed this same engineer for his accomplishments. Why, because this
supreme idiot called Krueger, dismissed this world-class engineer on
the basis that he couldn't find any reasoning behind YBAs reasoning.
This act of mocking, deriding and dismissing that which you can't find
an explanation for is what is typical of audio techies on the net, and
why you people are constantly scoffed at and disregarded by the general
audiophile community.


why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed,
so I can have a listen and compare it?


Name one you designed.


You don't get it. I'm not the one claiming YBA is full of ****, am I?
Either fuses have an audible difference or they DON'T. YBA says they
do. You and Arnold Krueger say they don't. Which of you three produces
world-class audiophile components that are very well reviewed and
regarded?


I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.


Emphasis on "I guess"... since that is mostly what you techies seem to
be able to do. The other thing you people are good at doing, is coming
up with rationalizations on why someone might hear a change in
something; ie. "it was not well designed", "it was an old fuse", etc.
etc. etc. Me, I don't have to guess, I HEARD the differences, and so do
others. A tech from this group even emailed me the other day to explain
that they conducted similar experiments on fuses and found them all to
be audible.


How did the sound really improve ?
Can you describe how did that removing the fuse help.


I did discuss this in greater detail in a recent post to someone else
in this thread. If you're that curious, try the experiment again in a
decent sounding audio amp, using a paper clip or soldering a wire
bridge. Listen a few times, before you conclude no differences. If you
conclude no differences, fine. That doesn't mean there aren't any, just
that we have different opinions.


Like I also said elsewhere in this
thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't
understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according
to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP
guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already.


I don't need to repeat the experiments.


So much for your scientific curiousity. Then you don't need to ask me
questions on my experiments, if you've already concluded I'm full of
it. Perhaps you're just trolling me, like the rest.

I have hear didfferences between different CD players, amplifiers,
speakes, even between some cables...



"Even between some cables...". ROTFLMAO!!! That statement says more
about you to me than anything else you've said about fuses.

You are an incorrigible and predictable techie, you know that...

Changing the mains fuse to another has not made absolutely no
difference on the sound heard on the systems.


I suppose next you'll say changing the mains cables has no effect
either...


I have done experimenting on many audio things.

And on those experiements I have also learned how easy it is
to fool your hearing by the beliefs.. Ever been in "blind test"
where you just try to hear the difference without previous
knowlege on the things you test...


Yes, and back in the day, I also conducted double-blind level-measured
abx tests as well; as a test of the test. In the case of some of the
recent "cryogentic" tests I conducted on my amp and preamp (whereby I
deep froze the gear), I found after warming it back up and listening,
that the results (at first) were NOT what I expected. There are plenty
of tests I conduct that do not meet my preconceived notions, which
indicates the listening is not being subjected to any placebo effect,
and being "fooled by my beliefs" as you claim. I can always describe
the exact nature of the changes I hear, and I always ensure that this
is repeatable (since changes can occur for any number of reasons -
simply switching on and off your amp for a second can change the
sound).


Maybe I as a rude. Sorry on that.
Usually you need to be a little bit rude to weak up people that are
doign stupid dangerous things.


I know. I feel the same way, when I see people doing "stupid things".

Based on the postings you have posted here I think pretty much
same about you. And I am free to keep my opinion until there is a
reason to change that.


You're free to believe what you wish to believe, and I have no desire
to change your opinion on anything, or anyone else's here for that
matter. But the fact remains that almost everyone in this thread who
said I was full of this for suggesting fuses have an audible effect,
NEVER TESTED IT. Religious audio zealots of the type you find on this
group always love talking out of their asses, and always demand proof
of others.

What was your initial jurgement on thinking why removing them would
improve sound ?


You mean why did I do it in the first place? Desperation. They're very
old components these amps and preamps but at the time, they were all I
to listen to music with. They desperately needed some kind of tweaking,
because I was used to much better grade of sound reproduction. I tried
many ways to improve their sound, and while I did, I needed to take it
to the "next level". Using a jumper over the fuse bridge was simply a
"why not?" idea I thought of (without realizing I wasn't the first to
try this). While it did take it to another level, I had to bring it
back to the previous level, because I didn't want to risk destroying
the amp, which wasn't mine to destroy....

So that already shoots down your
theoretical BS about "worse sound easily".


I am talking on experience here.. I have expriemtned with
transistor amplifier circuits... and run transistors without
heatsik when they should have had one... and hard and seen effects
that happen when you run them for some time...
Burned few fingers and transistors back them.


As I mentioned elsewhere, I touched the transistors of this amp after
running it without a heatsink all night, and never burned my fingers.
Some heatsinks it appears, are redundant.


Can you tell which specific amplifeir you have modified ?


Its a Technics, and I mentioned the model to someone else in this
thread.

Nothing particularly new about audio that I would have not known
earlier. Maybe I should have written my earlier posting in a little
bit different format... less theory and more real world experiment
results.


I think I would have responded better to that.

The end of your posting gave a better picture on you.
It seems that you have been pretty careful on your experiments,
and know more on things you do that seemed based on the first posting.
Sorry. It is pretty easy to get wrong impressions on the people
based on their postins.


Tell me about it! Although I don't have an engineering background,
people here told me I don't even have any concept of what a fuse is for
or what it does in an amp, and that their 12 year old knows more about
amps and fuses than I do (which means I really didn't learn much in the
last 26 years as an audiophile and electronics tinkerer). I might have
been insulted by that, if the poster wasn't such a complete idiot. In
another example, I've been confirmed 100% by the people on this board
to be a "troll" and they say "trolling" is the only reason I posted
here, when that is complete and utter bull****. Funny how one person
here spews some piece of bull****, and all the little sheep follow
along and believe it true.

That can happens on some equipment. There are amplifiers that designed
in such way that there is overuse of all kind of things. Much larger
hetsinks that are needed, overrated components etc.. just to be on
safe side in all cases.


Exactly my conclusion; avoids unneecssary lawsuits. I don't see the
problem if you have an old amp that ain't worth much, and you
experiment on it. Because of "overdesign" and because I believe in the
concept of minimalism in audio, this is how I learn what does and
doesn't work, and then I apply it to my GOOD gear. Of course, I'm not
insane, so I won't do things I believe will cause undue damage.

And there are also amplifiers that are pretty much optimized
to provide what is promised with close to minimal cost...
Taking out parts in such design can cause pretty nasty
consequences.


I know, which is why I'd never remove the heatsink in my Class A amp...

  #100   Report Post  
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jakdedert
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote:
I know, which is why I'd never remove the heatsink in my Class A amp...


Oh for gaud's sake. Haven't you gotten enough mileage out of this troll
yet?

jak




  #103   Report Post  
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Geoff@work
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote in message
oups.com...



Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this
thread was a query of a technical nature,


For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten


geoff


  #104   Report Post  
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Geoff@work wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...



Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this
thread was a query of a technical nature,


For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten


geoff


That would be rec.audio.tech.head-start in our school district

I'm waiting to see if he spontaneously combusts with all the energy
he expends.

Poof there went his keyboard :-)

  #105   Report Post  
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Geoff@work wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...



Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this
thread was a query of a technical nature,


For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten


geoff


I'm sure the kindergarten crowd would have done better than you. It
took about 75 posts from you geniuses before anyone actually answered
my "difficult tech question". ROTFLMAO!

Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your
assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree
from, the back of a cereal box?



  #107   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote in message
oups.com


Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back
up your assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did
you get your degree from, the back of a cereal box?


How can fuses be audible when whole amps are inaudible?


  #110   Report Post  
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Yup, that'll do it. I was wondering when you were going gather up
enough guts to show your fat ****ing face to me, and address me
directly. Now I wonder how long it will take before you declare
yourself the winner of this debate and run away & troll "safer" posters
in the rest of the audio newsgroups.

Assuming you're not just going to **** in your pants, whine and run
away, I can't wait to see what your anticipated "debating trick" will
be...

- Are you going to add me to the list of those responsible for putting
all the child pornography you collect on your hard drive, you fat
little pervert?

- Are you going to "prove" a negative by putting out some stupid
****witted Kruegerian claim of yours, like if I don't talk out loud
about funnels, that "obviously" means I'm using my asshole to dump
stuff in jars? (although I have no doubt that that's your preferred
canning method...).

- What's the FIRST lie that you're going to trot out, I wonder? Will it
be a lie about me, or a lie about audio?

Let's see!...

First, I have a serious question for you: Did anyone ever tell you that
you look like a fat German **** on his way to a disco in Munich? I just
listened to an hour's worth of debate with you and Atkinson. You sound
like a bitter version of Bill Gates, but with a lot more neuroses in
your persona. And in that debate, you made the same stupid claim about
amps all sounding the same. The entire audience then laughed at you.
Just as I'm doing right now, Krueger....

Okay....1....2....3.... GO! Hit me with your best!



  #111   Report Post  
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wrote:
Yup, that'll do it. I was wondering when you were going gather up
enough guts to show your fat ****ing face to me, and address me
directly. Now I wonder how long it will take before you declare
yourself the winner of this debate and run away & troll "safer" posters
in the rest of the audio newsgroups.

Assuming you're not just going to **** in your pants, whine and run
away, I can't wait to see what your anticipated "debating trick" will
be...

- Are you going to add me to the list of those responsible for putting
all the child pornography you collect on your hard drive, you fat
little pervert?

- Are you going to "prove" a negative by putting out some stupid
****witted Kruegerian claim of yours, like if I don't talk out loud
about funnels, that "obviously" means I'm using my asshole to dump
stuff in jars? (although I have no doubt that that's your preferred
canning method...).

- What's the FIRST lie that you're going to trot out, I wonder? Will it
be a lie about me, or a lie about audio?

Let's see!...

First, I have a serious question for you: Did anyone ever tell you that
you look like a fat German **** on his way to a disco in Munich? I just
listened to an hour's worth of debate with you and Atkinson. You sound
like a bitter version of Bill Gates, but with a lot more neuroses in
your persona. And in that debate, you made the same stupid claim about
amps all sounding the same. The entire audience then laughed at you.
Just as I'm doing right now, Krueger....

Okay....1....2....3.... GO! Hit me with your best!


We have reviewed your resume and find you
qualifications excellent to respond to requests
at the Internet Help Desk.
Please hit the any key to continue

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wrote:
wrote:


Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your
assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree
from, the back of a cereal box?


Over 100 posts, and you and your good buddy Yves have yet to
back up your assertions about fuses being audible. Where did
you get your degree, from a label off a rotting wedge of cheap brie?


You must laughed your ass silly thinking of how witty that sounded to
you. I guess they forgot to inform you: techies have no imagination
needed for refined wit. Which is why the best you dimwitted freaks can
come up with is lame IKYABWAI's.

For the rest of you, the following post from our cheese-eating frog-
ass kissin' friend was found on another newsgroup. It seems we
have a trend here?

Subject: Microwave oven went KAPUT! What went wrong?
Newsgroup: sci.electronics.repair
Author: Bob Ladbury
My wife just toasted a couple of rice crackers and cheese
(on a regular plate) in our Samsung microwave oven. The
thing seemed to have caught on fire inside the oven, but as
there was no metal on any of the food or plate, I don't think
that caused it. There was a wild flash, buzzing noises, then
before I had the chance to run to the circuit breaker, things
died down...

The man's a gawdam firebug.! Don't let him near anything with
a power cord in your house!


First off, I allowed my brother to use my account; so that's stupid
presumption no. 59 on your part. ("Cheese-eating" would be no. 60 and
"Frog-ass kissing" is 61). Now according to your idiot logic, if
someone's oven proves to be defective, that means they're personally
responsible for that. You see, that's the same kind of dumbass twisted
logic you and the other RATolas apply to audio. Whatever you presume is
true, is then true. If a majority of you fools believe somethign to be
be true, you then declare it to be true beyond a doubt; no proof
necessary. And you pseudo-engineer wannabe fools pretend to stand
behind the scruples of science?! You make me laugh...

Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up
now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat
lardass is hiding....

  #114   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
TonyP
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Stuart Welwood wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

wrote:


Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up

now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat
lardass is hiding....



Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further
communication.

Grow up,


Me personally, I am enjoying his humor! I look forward to reading his
replies! Love it!!

I know that I have been taken to task in the past because I said I could
hear a difference in my amps in my system. The same with pre-amps.
Wires? Well, I have heard differences in *some*, but not most (how MIT
shotgunned sounded worse in my system than the Monster Powerline 2 and
Interlink Reference). I have not had the "luxury" to hear the super
priced Nordost, MIT's, wires with batteries, wires within vacuums, and
others. I would relish the chance to say "wire is wire and it all sounds
the same because I actually heard them for myself".



  #115   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Karl Uppiano
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then
it's frickin' hilarious!

But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier
with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are
willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail.
To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has
ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said,
It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a
filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a
power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an
amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house
and its once-living occupants.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).




  #116   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Karl Uppiano wrote:
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then
it's frickin' hilarious!

But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier
with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are
willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail.
To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has
ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said,
It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a
filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a
power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an
amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house
and its once-living occupants.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).


I have actually had an amplifier that was blowing line fuses (2).
Stopped at that point and had it repaired, rectifier circuit had
a dead short to ground. Thank God it had a grounded cord set.
My foil hat is Paul Revere style:-)

had a dead shot

  #117   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Karl Uppiano wrote:
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults.



WTF are you talking about "degenerated to"? I was attacked with ad
hominem insults from the very beginning, and not a single RATter ever
proved a single argument against me.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.


"Should"... techie translation for "does".

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).


And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

  #119   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


TonyP wrote:
Stuart Welwood wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

wrote:

Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up

now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat
lardass is hiding....



Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further
communication.

Grow up,


Me personally, I am enjoying his humor! I look forward to reading his
replies! Love it!!


Okay, I wasn't feeling a lot of love here, but two seconds before I was
going to levae for good, you've convinced me to stay. For good.

Anyone have a problem with me but yet can't seem to tear yourselves
away from my thread(s), I suggest you take it up with TonyP. And you
can also kiss my ass, while you're at it.


I know that I have been taken to task in the past because I said I could
hear a difference in my amps in my system. The same with pre-amps.
Wires? Well, I have heard differences in *some*, but not most (how MIT
shotgunned sounded worse in my system than the Monster Powerline 2 and
Interlink Reference). I have not had the "luxury" to hear the super
priced Nordost, MIT's, wires with batteries, wires within vacuums, and
others. I would relish the chance to say "wire is wire and it all sounds
the same because I actually heard them for myself".


Any idiot who is brave enough to display his stupidity to the entire
world by stating with a straight face that amplifiers sound the same
(regardless of whether they are poorly or well designed, in good
condition or in disrepair), has, I figure, at least 3 problems:

1) They're hopeless imbeciles

2) They're as deaf as a doorknob

3) They're newsgroup junkies addicted to rec.audio.tech

Thus, they're worth making fun of....

  #120   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote:
TonyP wrote:
Stuart Welwood wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

wrote:

Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up

now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat
lardass is hiding....


Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further
communication.

Grow up,


Me personally, I am enjoying his humor! I look forward to reading his
replies! Love it!!


Okay, I wasn't feeling a lot of love here, but two seconds before I was
going to levae for good, you've convinced me to stay. For good.

Anyone have a problem with me but yet can't seem to tear yourselves
away from my thread(s), I suggest you take it up with TonyP. And you
can also kiss my ass, while you're at it.


I know that I have been taken to task in the past because I said I could
hear a difference in my amps in my system. The same with pre-amps.
Wires? Well, I have heard differences in *some*, but not most (how MIT
shotgunned sounded worse in my system than the Monster Powerline 2 and
Interlink Reference). I have not had the "luxury" to hear the super
priced Nordost, MIT's, wires with batteries, wires within vacuums, and
others. I would relish the chance to say "wire is wire and it all sounds
the same because I actually heard them for myself".


Any idiot who is brave enough to display his stupidity to the entire
world by stating with a straight face that amplifiers sound the same
(regardless of whether they are poorly or well designed, in good
condition or in disrepair), has, I figure, at least 3 problems:

1) They're hopeless imbeciles

2) They're as deaf as a doorknob

3) They're newsgroup junkies addicted to rec.audio.tech

Thus, they're worth making fun of....


You've at least 2 of the three going for you already,
Your hearing curve must be as sharp as the top of your head.
How many of those YBA components do you own?
Fuses, who needs them?
Please repeat your job's mantra:
"Would you like fries with the burger?"

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