I'm a documentary filmmaker and my upcoming project is the biggest
I've ever undertaken: A 35-city, seven week tour across the USA. The
subject is an indie rock band playing large clubs and small theaters.
We are a two-person, single-camera crew. The finished product will run
approximately an hour and half.

At question is how best to capture the live audio of the actual
concerts. The budget is limited and portability is an issue. We (the
band and I) have agreed on the six songs that will be featured in the
final video. But they like to vary their setlist from stop to stop and
so I feel it is necessary to try and record all their shows in their
entirety. Also, the opening band will play a part in the finished film
and it would be nice to get their sets as well.

Since we are a small two-person crew, it will be necessary to be able
to "set it and forget it" whatever the method of recording used is.
That is, press record and leave the device alone for the length of the
show while it records.

The band travels with its own soundman, if that is pertinent info. He
will be manning the soundboard (I'm really sorry if my choice of words
betray my lack of experience in live-concert proceedings). I know that
many folks talk of "plugging in to the soundboard" as a way of
recording a show and I would assume that this is our best bet, too.

But what device to use for the actual recording? (For editing
purposes, I would very much prefer the device to record in digital,
not analog).

I guess I could use a notebook pc, right? It would make sense.
Although I would be uneasy leaving a notebook pretty much unattended
during the course of a show (the soundman would be at the board, of
course, but I can't expect him to either babysit my gear or take
responsibility for it). But at the same time, any device I use would
have the potential of being ripped off. And a hard drive would seem
like the ideal place to store what will probably amount to 100 hours
of live recording...60GB or so of wav's. If the notebook is a decent
option, then what would be the minimum cpu & memory for such a task?
Obviously a large hard drive would be essential (I have several large
capacity firewire-based external hard drives, by the way).

If at all important, the final documentary will (hopefully) be
released on DVD and the live recordings will probably amount to 20-25
minutes of its 90 minute running time.

So what are my options? I could spend $1500 on whatever the device
might be. Just please remember that it needs to run unattended without
interruption for a few hours. I'm also realistic about the results and
I in no way expect to obtain the results a pro crew with pro gear and
tons of experience would get.

Thanks a lot.

"com crumb" wrote in message
om...
I'm a documentary filmmaker and my upcoming project is the biggest
I've ever undertaken: A 35-city, seven week tour across the USA. The
subject is an indie rock band playing large clubs and small theaters.
We are a two-person, single-camera crew. The finished product will run
approximately an hour and half.

At question is how best to capture the live audio of the actual
concerts. The budget is limited and portability is an issue. We (the
band and I) have agreed on the six songs that will be featured in the
final video. But they like to vary their setlist from stop to stop and
so I feel it is necessary to try and record all their shows in their
entirety. Also, the opening band will play a part in the finished film
and it would be nice to get their sets as well.

Since we are a small two-person crew, it will be necessary to be able
to "set it and forget it" whatever the method of recording used is.
That is, press record and leave the device alone for the length of the
show while it records.

During the actual performances do you need your soundman to be with you at the
camera? I'd think it would be better for him to deal with the music aspects and
let you run around on camera mic doing your thing. Get a high quality shotgun
mic mounted on your camera for this and resist the temptation to use a cheap
$300 wonder mic. You will do fine with a good camera mic for all of the band
coming out of the dressing room stuff that may happen just prior to the
performance. Use your soundguy untill just before the performance than cut him
loose to deal with the music recording.



The band travels with its own soundman, if that is pertinent info. He
will be manning the soundboard (I'm really sorry if my choice of words
betray my lack of experience in live-concert proceedings). I know that
many folks talk of "plugging in to the soundboard" as a way of
recording a show and I would assume that this is our best bet, too.


Mixing for reinforcement is very different than mixing for a recording. Since
the venues seem to be large to larger you can probably get a bad-to-average
recording straight out of the reinforcement sound board. That's as oppossed to
the horrible-to-bad recording you would get in a small club where the quietest
instrument onstage will be the loudest instrument on your board mix.

You need to find out what the capabilities of the sound board are. Can the
soundman give you a separate stereo mix on a pair of aux sends? Will he nurse
your mix a bit for you and keep an ear on things? Is the band an active partner
in this venture or at least supportive?



But what device to use for the actual recording? (For editing
purposes, I would very much prefer the device to record in digital,
not analog).


I guess I could use a notebook pc, right? It would make sense.
Although I would be uneasy leaving a notebook pretty much unattended
during the course of a show (the soundman would be at the board, of
course, but I can't expect him to either babysit my gear or take
responsibility for it). But at the same time, any device I use would
have the potential of being ripped off. And a hard drive would seem
like the ideal place to store what will probably amount to 100 hours
of live recording...60GB or so of wav's. If the notebook is a decent
option, then what would be the minimum cpu & memory for such a task?
Obviously a large hard drive would be essential (I have several large
capacity firewire-based external hard drives, by the way).

Personally I'd be shy of using a laptop for something like this. You'd be better
off with a dedicated recorder with a professional audio interface. Unless you
are running a backup of some sort a computer running a consumer OS is a
liability. It's not if it will crash, it's when and how often. Likewise I'd be
warry of committing all of the concerts to ONE large hard drive. DAT recorders
will record 2 hours on a single tape (3 hours if you use data tapes). You should
be able to find a professional DAT machine with balanced XLR inputs on the net
for less than $500 these days. DAT tapes can be had for around $6.00 each.

If at all important, the final documentary will (hopefully) be
released on DVD and the live recordings will probably amount to 20-25
minutes of its 90 minute running time.

With the live performances making up nearly 1/3 of your planned DVD are you
appropriating enough resources towards that end? To me it sounds like you need
some more help and money. Not budgeting properly for sound on a documentary
dealing with a band tour is a little far-sighted in my book.


So what are my options? I could spend $1500 on whatever the device
might be. Just please remember that it needs to run unattended without
interruption for a few hours. I'm also realistic about the results and
I in no way expect to obtain the results a pro crew with pro gear and
tons of experience would get.

Since you lack the audio experience to fully understand what you are asking for
and what you really need I would suggest enlisting the services of the post
production sound people you plan on using to get in the loop with your sound man
and the band's sound man. You need to know what you want before you commit to a
method or format.

In article writes:


I'm a documentary filmmaker and my upcoming project is the biggest
I've ever undertaken: A 35-city, seven week tour across the USA.

At question is how best to capture the live audio of the actual
concerts. The budget is limited and portability is an issue.

Since we are a small two-person crew, it will be necessary to be able
to "set it and forget it" whatever the method of recording used is.

Danger! Danger! You're not an audio person, you don't have a regular
audio suite, and you're setting yourself up for a situation where
every night you'll have to set up and take down stuff you don't
understand fully.

I know that
many folks talk of "plugging in to the soundboard" as a way of
recording a show and I would assume that this is our best bet, too.

I agree, particularly since you won't be paying much attention to the
recording once the band starts playing. What you'll want to do is
essentially capture each microphone so that when you get home with
your recordings, you can play them back through the mixing console
("soundboard"), possibly with the help of the engineer who travels
with the band, and make the best mix you can of each song that you
want to include in your film. If you want to take this approach, you
need to talk with the band's sound engineer, find out what equipment
he's using (do they travel with their own sound system or rely on what
the venue or local producer provides?) and work out the best way to
interface.

An alternative is to just record a "board mix." This usually isn't
satisfactory (assuming this is a typical pop music band with drums and
electric instruments) unless you're playing very large venues where
essentially nobody hears direct sound from the stage and everything
goes through the PA system and essentially mixed as if the band was in
a studio. If the drums and guitars are loud enough so that very little
of them is added to the PA mix, your off-the-board recording will
consist nearly entirely of vocals, not what you want.

Also, being as how this is going to be a film about a band performing
before live audiences, you'll want to capture the sound of the
audience. This will require a few more mics than those usually used
with the band. And if there are some instruments that usually aren't
miked because they're loud enough from the stage, you'll need mics on
those too, for your recording.

But what device to use for the actual recording? (For editing
purposes, I would very much prefer the device to record in digital,
not analog).

I guess I could use a notebook pc, right? It would make sense.

Not to me. It's too much **** to set up and keep working, and you'll
be limited to the number of tracks you can record, as well as be
limited to available disk space.

I would go for a dedicated 24-track hard disk recorder. There are
several available, each having its fans (people, not the thing that
keeps it cool) and foibles. But in general, they're reliable, compact,
allow you to record individual tracks of the band and a couple of the
audience, and use interchangeable disk drives, so you can put each
night's show on its own drive to keep things sorted out.

Don't worry about digital interfacing, and don't fuss with
transferring tracks to a computer for mixing. Do it all analog. The
place to involve a computer for a project like this is is for mixdown
and editing of the mix, not of individual tracks.

Something else that you'll need to consider is synchronization between
the film and audio. Have you thought about how you're going to handle
that? The good thing about these stand-alone hard disk recorders is
that they all both send and receive at least MIDI time code, and
some also have SMPTE time code capability. That can make the
impossible possible.

So what are my options? I could spend $1500 on whatever the device
might be.

That's not enough, but you're getting there. Maybe you could get a
loan, buy a recorder, and then sell it after the project is finished
if you needed to do so. I don't know what street prices for those are,
but list prices run about $2,000, and figure on a couple hundred bucks
more for cables to connect it to the mixer. Then there are disk
drives and carriers. And a couple more mics for the audience.

It's really important that you get everything together and rehearse
with the rig and the band's engineer a few times before you go on the
road. That's when you'll learn what cables you need, how to connect to
the mixer, and how to set things up so that the engineer can pay
attention to mixing the band to get the best performance from them
without worrying about the recording.

Murphy's lawyer will be waiting in the wings to hand you a subpoena.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:

Since we are a small two-person crew, it will be necessary to be able
to "set it and forget it" whatever the method of recording used is.


Danger! Danger! You're not an audio person, you don't have a regular
audio suite, and you're setting yourself up for a situation where
every night you'll have to set up and take down stuff you don't
understand fully.

Listen to Mike here...





I know that
many folks talk of "plugging in to the soundboard" as a way of
recording a show and I would assume that this is our best bet, too.


I agree, particularly since you won't be paying much attention to the
recording once the band starts playing. What you'll want to do is
essentially capture each microphone so that when you get home with
your recordings, you can play them back through the mixing console
("soundboard"), possibly with the help of the engineer who travels
with the band, and make the best mix you can of each song that you
want to include in your film. If you want to take this approach, you
need to talk with the band's sound engineer, find out what equipment
he's using (do they travel with their own sound system or rely on what
the venue or local producer provides?) and work out the best way to
interface.

I'd definitely add to this at least one good stereo pair and possibly
some audience mics as well.



But what device to use for the actual recording? (For editing
purposes, I would very much prefer the device to record in digital,
not analog).


I would go for a dedicated 24-track hard disk recorder. There are
several available, each having its fans (people, not the thing that
keeps it cool) and foibles. But in general, they're reliable, compact,
allow you to record individual tracks of the band and a couple of the
audience, and use interchangeable disk drives, so you can put each
night's show on its own drive to keep things sorted out.

Good advice here as well.




Something else that you'll need to consider is synchronization between
the film and audio. Have you thought about how you're going to handle
that? The good thing about these stand-alone hard disk recorders is
that they all both send and receive at least MIDI time code, and
some also have SMPTE time code capability. That can make the
impossible possible.

This is a huge deal if you're going to try and sync an entire show. If
you're not going to sync more than one song at a time, you *might* be
able to get away with a slate and some careful hand work in post.

At least go buy a book on the subject and speak with a few experienced
operators before you jump.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1061208727k@trad...

I would go for a dedicated 24-track hard disk recorder. There are
several available, each having its fans (people, not the thing that
keeps it cool) and foibles. But in general, they're reliable, compact,
allow you to record individual tracks of the band and a couple of the
audience, and use interchangeable disk drives, so you can put each
night's show on its own drive to keep things sorted out.

What Mike said. Listen to him, he knows what he's talking about. Just to
expand a bit, assuming you are using a film or video format with time code,
your best bet is going to be to record each of the channels from the PA
individually along with a couple ambient mics. So, for example, if the band
runs a 16 channel pa system, you could get an Alesis HD-24 for about $2000
and record those 16 tracks + 2 to 4 ambient mics throughout the venue, and
then you can record each gig on a single 40 gig hard disc. You can then go
back later, after the tour is over, and have the tracks mixed and mastered
by a professional engineer who can get you a good mix from all the tracks
you recorded. Your $1500 budget is not going to cut it, though. You will
need the recorder (generally about $2000 per 24 tracks), the ambient mics
(anywhere from $300-$3000 each), cables (count on $200-$400 in patch cables,
mic cables, etc), you will need some kind of mic preamp or small mixer to
bring the ambient mics up to line level to be recorded ($250-$2500 depending
on how and what equipment), and you're still going to have to work some
magic to get it to synch up right. It sounds like you need to sit down with
someone who has done this before and get a good plan together.

ryanm

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ...
com crumb wrote:

At question is how best to capture the live audio of the actual
concerts. The budget is limited and portability is an issue.

How many channels are on the console? What kind of places are you
working in? Have you talked to the sound guy?

I haven't yet talked to the sound guy. I just got the "GO" on this
project. I have eight weeks to prepare (heading out in mid-October and
stretching out to early December). Talking to him is surely a great
start. I will do that this week, hopefully.

And in answering an earlier poster who asked if the band is
supportive, they are definitely excited about the prospect. I just
have to make sure it is good. The off-stage stuff I know I can handle.
I'm here to begin to learn about the on-stage sound stuff.

You basically have three choices:

1. A direct PA feed from the console. This will not sound very balanced
at all, but it's a start.

Console = Soundboard (my word), right? I am almost positive that the
band uses the house console for each individual gig. I will definitely
find this out for sure this week. I am sure for my puposes one single
console used for the whole tour would be ideal, but I have to work
with what I'm handed.

Thanks to all who've posted so far, by the way, in educating me as to
how and why direct-from-the-board (at least soley) is not the way to
go.

2. Recording an ambient mike AND a PA feed, then delaying the PA feed and
mixing them together in post.

Now that is interesting. I had thought of ambient mikes solo OR the
soundboard feed, but not the two together. I suppose you are talking
about recording four tracks here, right? Two L/R mikes and L/R from
the soundboard...Hell, I'm assuming that soundboard separate L/R
channels for stereo mixes but I guess that's not necessarily true.

What would a good piece of equipment be to record four tracks (if that
*is* what you are suggesting) in this way? Could a notebook do it? Or
should I think dedicated recorder? What would be good examples of mics
that I could use in an ambient recording situation? I use a Sennheiser
K6 system with different capsules for my sound recording with camera.
Would that be a good mic for this?

(Apologies to all right here, right now if my inexperience is
frustrating).

3. Recording individual channels off the PA console using a DA-88 multitrack
machine. This is the smart way of doing things but will require a lot more
work in post.

The whole entire post-production crew is me-myself-and-I. But that's
not to say that I would be opposed to recording multiple tracks and
then hiring someone to mix the tracks for me.

I guess I could use a notebook pc, right? It would make sense.

How will you synch it? No pilot, no timecode. Are you shooting film or
video, and are you running timecode system? How are you rigged to jam
code? What are your post guys expecting?

Like I said, I am the post crew.

I'm shooting digital video. Which isn't comparable to film
quality-wise in some ways, but it has its own attributes. I like
exploiting video's inherent weaknesses for its own gain...That is to
say, I like video.

I will be using visual and audio clues to sync up for short periods of
time. What I envision ultimately will not be a "concert film" per se
for the live sections, but live-music accompanyment to live-music
footage, but synching up for key moments. I am trusting my post
production skills here quite a bit. But post-production (editing) has
always been by far my favorite part of filmmaking and it is where I
shine. (I work as an editor when I work for others).

If anyone is more interested in my methods for planning to sync up, I
will gladly share them here. But right now I am primarily concerned
about getting quality live recordings of the music.

And speaking of which, for those of you who know film and video: The
kind of quality audio-wise I am aiming for is audio that is comparable
to the digital video from a prosumer 3-chip mini-DV cam (used for
features such as Spike Lee's BAMBOOZLED, DANCER IN THE DARK, CHUCK &
BUCK and countless documentaries).

So what are my options? I could spend $1500 on whatever the device
might be. Just please remember that it needs to run unattended without
interruption for a few hours. I'm also realistic about the results and
I in no way expect to obtain the results a pro crew with pro gear and
tons of experience would get.

I wouldn't do ANY of this unattended. You need to figure out how you
are doing synch first off. Then talk to the sound guy.
--scott

I think (as suggested by another poster--Thanks) I will use my sound
person to man the recording while I shoot the footage during live
shows. That makes sense.

The budget for my recording hardware is $1500. But if I can buy
quality used gear and then sell it after the shoot for minimal loss
(10-20%), my budget could grow to $5000.

Thanks to all so far!

lungnut wrote;

The budget for my recording hardware is $1500. But if I can buy
quality used gear and then sell it after the shoot for minimal loss
(10-20%), my budget could grow to $5000.

The music biz is slow....you might be able to rent a rig(recorder, mics cables)
for $1500 for the 7 weeks once you figure out what it is you need exactly.



My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

i'd go ...a cd..burner...with a sub group mix of your main audio...and a couple
of live house mics to really pick up the crowd noise...mixed in very low
through a sub channel....