Scott Dorsey wrote On 09/19/05 19:53,:
Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course,
it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube"
preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something
cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube
circuit patent.

What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want
to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of
the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As
a result, there is a lot of crap on the market.

"If fools did not go to market, bad wares would not be sold"
-- Ibo Proverb

It's depressing, but you can't blame Behringer because they are just
copying the whole idea.
--scott


I contacted ART and asked what the plate voltage was on their "tube" gear. The response was 50 Volts
on ALL their gear with tubes.

Make of it what you will.

--fletch

SSJVCmag wrote On 09/20/05 08:34,:
On 9/19/05 7:10 PM, in article , "Todd
McFadden" wrote:


I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd





I AM LAOGHING LOUDER AND MORE EXHAUSTINHGLY THAN IN WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT A HOOT!!!!
(****... Where's the coffee...)

GOOD GOD MAN WHO COULD POSSIBLY BE SURPRISED BY THIS??????
I SWEAR... THE LEAPOARD'S SPOTS!!!!!

HEHEHEHEHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH
Wheeeeeoooo...
Gasp
Whew..
That's funny... Really truly funny...

Marvin Caesar and Greg Mackie are smilin' and noddin'...
But they're still not happy...

**And**
ESPECIALLY cuz it makes B-lovers get their panties all in a bunch:
I reitterate my oft-told annoying dead-horse who-cares little vow:
no Behringer gear will find it's way here unless I make some
Fletcher-insipred art out of it.... And I thing it'd have to be somethin
ACTIVE, y'know like those folks that build big Free Art Pieces out of Really
Dangerous Machinery that usually self-destructs spectacularly... ?
Maybe something to do with a rube-goldberg thing ending in an arc-welder and
a mix of LOX-&-Napthanol...



I think the bottom line of this thing is the ethics of the positioning of LED's behind a tube which
if it were operating at proper plate voltage, wouldn't need the LED's, really.

If the tube is in there for a marketing reason more than a design circuit reason, the ethical
argument arises once again, right?

If a company is going to make the claim of "added tube warmth" or words to that effect, it becomes
an ethical issue again if it is a spurious claim.

I have older Behringer gear, gates and c/l's and they work great. And, yes, their customer service/
repair service is very proactive.

We bought the newer MDX4600 quad compressor and have problems with more than one unit, typically on
compressor #1 on two units. This speaks to build quality deterioration over the past ten years that
has concerned me greatly. So I have become skeptical of their newer products, too, because of our
experience with these units, and the trend of companies like Behringer, ART and Aphex to try to sell
lower end purchasers on the idea that their tube gear will give them something it is clearly
designed to not do, to function in the manner advertised. Another ethical problem, no?

Even in hybrid gear of higher quality, the tube is one of the stages, the transistors another
stage... but they both OPERATE properly.

Okay, okay, who ever said big business had to be ethical? That said, though, if a company wants to
survive, they need to be honest about what their stuff does, right? But integrity is something we
all claim to adhere to, and want other to adhere to as well. So when a company is not being ethical
and operating absent integrity, it is our prerogative to boycott ever buying anything from them
again, new stuff that is, which does not meet the criteria we expect in equipment (or whatever they
manufacture/market/sell) until they reform their method of operation and clean up their act and
regain the "trust" of the consumer, whether in the professional arena or lower levels of the
purchasing food chain.

--fletch

"Geoff@work" wrote:

...snip..

Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass
tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo
tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament'
design !!!

geoff

Maybe they're going for a cold cathode sound to balance the tube's warmth.

later...

Ron Capik
--

BTW--there are Hammond fanatics who swear by the sound of the Xk-3.

I've sworn at them before but why would anybody swear BY one?

-----------------------------------------------------------
www.RickRyan.com

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Geoff@work" wrote ...
Well it aint "warm music", it's "yellow music".

Do you have "yellow snow" down there in NZ? :-)

Only if you **** in it.

Half a meter 'top up' on the skifield in the last 48 hours (all white).

geoff

"Agent_C" wrote in message
...


He surrounds 3 tubes in a mirrored cage, with white LED's behind each
one. When you look through the front window, it's just a little more
dramatic.

I was not at all offended by it; I thought it was kind of cool.

Not 'hot' at all ? So much for thermionics...

geoff

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Joe Kesselman" wrote in
message

Arny Krueger wrote:

It seems like: Mostly people who didn't live them the
first time.

Or those of us who were there but were too young to be
_there_.

Welling being there but too young to really live them is really about the
same as not living them.

I like Billy Connolly's jacket patch "Too Old To Die Young" . ;-)

geoff

"Fletch" wrote in message


I think the bottom line of this thing is the ethics of the positioning of
LED's behind a tube which if it were operating at proper plate voltage,
wouldn't need the LED's, really.

So it really should be marlketed at a LED preamp. And the tube place BEHIND
the LEDs !

geoff

John O wrote:

" I was looking at a Behringer guitar amp with my son on Saturday, and
that


thing had more crap on the front panel, I never saw an amp that required


a


freakin' manual to use. :-) And it was 180 watts for $250, or something.


We


didn't buy it.

-John O




However they do a brilliant small amp....costs peanuts, sounds great.



Seriously? Are you talking about a combo? I'll do the research, just point
me in a direction.

-John O



The GM110 I believe is the model number. They do a cheaper version with
an 8" speaker but for the money, the GM110 is the one.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

I don't CARE what it looks like. I care how it sounds.

You care about the price, though. And to get the price at a low level, they
have to shift a lot of product. And to shift a lot of product means making
the product attractive to a lot of buyers.

There are a lot of buyers out there who aren't as sensible as you, and who
*do* care what it looks like! And so adding that useless stuff you don't
want to pay for actually means the price to you is lower.

That's marketing.

Tim

"Richard" wrote :

What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use ....

Don't see the problem either. I'll say I do not think this is such a hot
product to begin with.. it works, but that is about all you can say about
it.. The LEDS are there to put emphasis on the tube, it is
marketing/selling the product whcih as you correctly state uses a tube
which does not have much glow. And it is probably cheaper to add the LEDS
to 'fake' the glow which is wanted for estetics only then using a tube
which glows more..

I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to
people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone
else...

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot

david morley wrote :


The GM110 I believe is the model number. They do a cheaper version with
an 8" speaker but for the money, the GM110 is the one.

I have one of the 8" models and it's a very nice box.. and funny to see it
on stage with a mic covering the whole front ;^)

I got it as a joke for a friend who always drags his marshall around.. he
actually uses this unit whenever he comes around to jam.. and quite likes
it..

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot

Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd



At least the tube is disconnected.

--
Les Cargill

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden"
wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


I find it interesting that no one has checked to see if there was any
heater or plate voltage on the socket? To even give them the benifit
of the doubt. before every one is up in arms.

I am not supporting them. God knows what a reputation the company has
for ripping off designs.

Just think we need more facts before we hang em!

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:24:59 -0400, Agent_C
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden"
wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


This is not at all unprecedented. Take a look at what Bob Carver does
with his Classic Vacuum Tube preamp:

http://home.nyc.rr.com/acidrock212/tube3.jpg
http://home.nyc.rr.com/acidrock212/tube4.jpg

He surrounds 3 tubes in a mirrored cage, with white LED's behind each

They look like neon lamps to me, but yes, it's the same idea...

one. When you look through the front window, it's just a little more
dramatic.

I was not at all offended by it; I thought it was kind of cool.

A_C

Richard wrote:
What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use .... What next ? people claiming
that clip/peak indicators are a con because the light is not actually
from components catching fire ????

Because it's just more cosmetic silliness. As soon as you start putting
the stuff behind glass and lighting it up, it's a sign that there is more
of an emphasis on style than substance.


Geez you are reading a lot into this - any sensible manufacturer gives
some thought to how their product is going to look and tries to make
their product look as good/effective as they can (within price
constraints of course) Car manufacturers are a classic in this regard.
Of course if you feel the manufacturer has spent to much money on
appearance you can always buy a cheaper product ...... Oh hang this is
Behringer we are talking about there probably is no cheaper alternative
;-) In fact different colours in the paintwork on the front panel cost
more does this mean you avoid products which use more than one colour
in its paint work - Behringer must look pretty good in this regard.

I don't CARE what it looks like. I care how it sounds. I don't want my
money being spent on additional junk that adds nothing to improve the sound.
--scott

David Mellor obviously cares what stuff looks like, in his whole
'Review' he does not mention once what the box sounds like .... OTOH
given that he has written a whole article expressing his disgust at
what essentially amounts to the look of the device in question I doubt
that I could take any of his opinions on Audio seriously he just sounds
like a bit of a pratt really.
At the end of the day the fact that Behringer have chosen to highlight
the Valve with a couple of LEDs does not constitute a "Con" it is
merely a styling/appearance decision like the colour/shape of the
knobs, Layout etc.

How can any reviewer write such a blatant piece of crap like that? He

I guess this is the Internet, opinionated W%^&*!s can write all sorts
of crud and get away with it .... I wonder if Behringer would have
grounds for legal action ??? although they may decide of course that
any negative publicity from this article will only be believed by
people who already despise them, whereas taking some pretentious little
pratt to court may generate more negative publicity than it is worth.

insinuates that the tube might not even be in circuit, then goes on to say
his "feeling" is that the circuit is designed and run a certain way. Just
where does he get even a shred of evidence to justify these accusations
apart from the inside of his own head?

good question ...

What an arse.

Of course! That is where he gets his 'opinions' .... ;-)

I think I might start work on a Mic preamp with a small Smoke machine
built into it instead of clip indicators ;-)

On 20 Sep 2005 19:09:33 -0700, "Richard" wrote:

At the end of the day the fact that Behringer have chosen to highlight
the Valve with a couple of LEDs does not constitute a "Con" it is
merely a styling/appearance decision like the colour/shape of the
knobs, Layout etc.

But they also simulate the heat-up time. C'mon. It's a con.

It's like ordering a maple neck and getting plastic with maple grain
painted on.




Kurt Riemann

Where is the Con ?? the device uses a genuine 12AX7 !!!!
lets see now :
the unit claims to have a Valve in it .... well look at that it does -
no con there

as for simulating the heat up time that sounds like a useful idea to me
especially in this modern day and age when people are used to plugging
something in, turning it on and it is ready to use.
Really it is more like ordering a maple neck and getting ..... a maple
neck !

In article , says...

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd



Hey they probably read Stereophile Magazine and figured the average sucker is
begging to get ripped off.

Richard wrote:
Where is the Con ?? the device uses a genuine 12AX7 !!!!
lets see now :
the unit claims to have a Valve in it .... well look at that it does -
no con there

A real tube preamp has an input transformer, and then various tube gain
stages which run with a couple hundred volts on the plate and are biased
to be as linear as possible. The output stage may either be a transformer
or a cathode follower. The tube stages themselves are pretty neutral and
most of the actual coloration comes from the input transformer, and some
from the output transformer.

This device does not have a transformer. Therefore, the coloration it
produces will be in no way related to that of a regular tube preamp. It
has a solid state input stage, a tube stage that is operated in a regime
so far out of the norm that the RCA tube handbook doesn't even LIST curves
at 50V, with the intention of using it as a deliberate distortion device.
Then it has more solid-state output stages. Most of the coloration comes
from the tube effect stage, but it's also producing a good bit of
coloration from that solid-state stuff.

The overall sound and the measured distortion spectra between these two
devices basically shows only minimal resemblance between them. They are
both preamps and they both have a tube in them.

as for simulating the heat up time that sounds like a useful idea to me
especially in this modern day and age when people are used to plugging
something in, turning it on and it is ready to use.

Have you ever actually USED one of these fake tube things? I got one
of the ART units on review when they first came out and I was absolutely
horrified. It was pretty clear that the folks who designed it didn't have
any idea what a conventional tube preamp sounded like or did.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article .com,
says...

What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use ....

I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow quite
brightly without any LED augmentation.

In article , says...



I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to
people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone
else...



I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con. We still don't know whether the
tube is or isn't in the circuit, either.

I have serviced many a Valve amp and had to look closely at the ends of
a 12AX7 to see if the filament was glowing ......

"Chevdo"


What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use ....

I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow quite
brightly without any LED augmentation.


** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !!

At most there is a pair of tiny, red spots of light visible from the some
angles.

I am looking at a row of eight new 12AX7s ( all Russian made) right now in
VOX amp.

I normal room light is hard to say if any of them are actually lit.




.......... Phil

"Chevdo"


I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used
to
people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone
else...



I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con.


** You are an idiot.


We still don't know whether the
tube is or isn't in the circuit, either.


** You do not know and that it your problem - not evidence.




.......... Phil

In article , says...


"Chevdo"


What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use ....

I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow quite
brightly without any LED augmentation.


** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !!

At most there is a pair of tiny, red spots of light visible from the some
angles.

I am looking at a row of eight new 12AX7s ( all Russian made) right now in
VOX amp.

I normal room light is hard to say if any of them are actually lit.



oops sorry the tubes in the back of my Bell are 6V6GT and they glow quite a
bit. I think there are a few 12AX7s somewhere in there but I'll take your word
for it that they don't glow. I suppose they should've just used 6V6GTs then
they wouldn't have needed the LEDs

In article , says...


"Chevdo"


I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used
to
people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone
else...



I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con.


** You are an idiot.


We still don't know whether the
tube is or isn't in the circuit, either.


** You do not know and that it your problem - not evidence.



I know there is a con, I know YOU are the idiot, but what I don't know is the
extent of the con, and the extent of your stupidity. I don't care much about
either, but I definitely care much more about the former than the latter.

"Chevdo"
Phil Allison


What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use ....

I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow
quite
brightly without any LED augmentation.


** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !!

At most there is a pair of tiny, red spots of light visible from the some
angles.

I am looking at a row of eight new 12AX7s ( all Russian made) right now in
VOX amp.

I normal room light is hard to say if any of them are actually lit.


oops sorry the tubes in the back of my Bell are 6V6GT and they glow quite
a
bit.


** Most 6V6 tubes are coated black and show no sign of glowing whatever.

There may be a red spot visible with other examples.


I think there are a few 12AX7s somewhere in there but I'll take your word
for it that they don't glow. I suppose they should've just used 6V6GTs
then
they wouldn't have needed the LEDs


** See above.



............. Phil

On 9/20/05 1:36 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 9/19/05 10:53 PM, in article , "Scott
Dorsey" wrote:

Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course,
it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube"
preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something
cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube
circuit patent.

And to be fair, the 107 is a DARNED quiet cheap pre with very-lo-impedance
mics... And the tube does little damage.

I disagree. The 107 sounds a lot better with the tube stage removed,
and it's only about 10dB down after removing it, too. The whole reflected
plate silliness was a terrible idea. Admittedly the rest of the preamp
isn't so bad, but honestly it's nothing too impressive.
--scott

It's just that first gain stage that makes it worth having.

"Chevdo"
Phil Allison


I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used
to
people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone
else...



I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con.


** You are an idiot.


We still don't know whether the
tube is or isn't in the circuit, either.


** You do not know and that it your problem - not evidence.



I know there is a con,


** You are barely rate ****ing idiot.

Go figure out the difference between "gimmick" and a "con".

A good dictionary might be a place to start.





......... Phil

On 9/20/05 1:59 PM, in article
, "George Gleason"
wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote in
:

On 9/20/05 12:40 PM, in article
, "George
Gleason" wrote:


(hmmmnn.. T-shirt.. Blame Behringer... The back can have a
silk-screen of the Mackie filing papers...)



or a picture of the same papers thrown in the dust bin by the judge,
who correctly identified them as pointless driva
George

Drivel that suddenly and absolutely divested BEHRINGER of their entire
US sales distro and warrenty repair partner SAMASH leaving them in a
scramble for a year to rebuild one from the ground up...
But then I forget, that was a 'planned business move'.
We've been over this wayyy too many times...



Yes we have, yet you continue to not get it correct.

George... George... These things HAPPENED.
Simple
You can discuss the why's and wonder about what happened in the judge's
chamber and interpret the mandatory public statements about how "all sides
are satisfied with the outcome"... Till doomsday.. I'm not GOING there, I
wasn;t there any more than you...
but it doesn;t change what HAPPENED.


it seems behringers business plan is working quite well

Absolutely...

they are leading the industry in customer support

Well I'm sure they'r etaking care of business, 'leading the industry' is
quite a claim... But I don;t know different, I've never had to call them.


and reaching markets that before have been unable to buy a compressor or
small mixer

WalMart is doing this too...


mackie is even copying behringer business plan
even going them one better by directly copying the qsc rmx(I believe, you'd
have to ask Graham, as I could be wrong on which amp they copied) with
their Tapco amp

THAT¹S funny!

A real tube preamp has an input transformer, and then various tube gain
stages which run with a couple hundred volts on the plate and are biased
to be as linear as possible. The output stage may either be a transformer
or a cathode follower. The tube stages themselves are pretty neutral and
most of the actual coloration comes from the input transformer, and some
from the output transformer.

So now you are moving the goal posts just because I do not agree that
highlighting a valve with a LED is a con you are making claims for the
unit that Behringer do not make and then shooting your claims down ....
Lets see what Behringer claim on their website:
" The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or
hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you
extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and
transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features
direct injection and level conversion functionality."

They do not claim that the 'Ultragain Pro' is a full Valve Pre-amp
merely that It has a 'built in tube'

SSJVCmag wrote in
:

On 9/20/05 1:59 PM, in article
, "George
Gleason" wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote in
:

On 9/20/05 12:40 PM, in article
, "George
Gleason" wrote:


(hmmmnn.. T-shirt.. Blame Behringer... The back can have a
silk-screen of the Mackie filing papers...)



or a picture of the same papers thrown in the dust bin by the
judge, who correctly identified them as pointless driva
George

Drivel that suddenly and absolutely divested BEHRINGER of their
entire US sales distro and warrenty repair partner SAMASH leaving
them in a scramble for a year to rebuild one from the ground up...
But then I forget, that was a 'planned business move'.
We've been over this wayyy too many times...



Yes we have, yet you continue to not get it correct.

George... George... These things HAPPENED.
Simple
You can discuss the why's and wonder about what happened in the
judge's chamber and interpret the mandatory public statements about
how "all sides are satisfied with the outcome"... Till doomsday.. I'm
not GOING there, I wasn;t there any more than you...
but it doesn;t change what HAPPENED.

What HAPPENED is mackie was thrown out of court for bringing a baseless
suit
THAT IS what happened


it seems behringers business plan is working quite well

Absolutely...

they are leading the industry in customer support

Well I'm sure they'r etaking care of business, 'leading the industry'
is quite a claim... But I don;t know different, I've never had to call
them.

You don't have to people are reporting it right here.


and reaching markets that before have been unable to buy a compressor
or small mixer

WalMart is doing this too...

More power to them, I love Wal-Mart
I buy my CD players there


mackie is even copying behringer business plan
even going them one better by directly copying the qsc rmx(I believe,
you'd have to ask Graham, as I could be wrong on which amp they
copied) with their Tapco amp

THAT¹S funny!

Graham had some hand in the design, and I trust his word that the Tapco
is a direct copy of someone elses amp, like I said it might or might not
be the rmx
I simply don't remember
George

On 20 Sep 2005 20:51:33 -0700, "Richard" wrote:

while its built-in tube adds warmth and
transparency to your signal.

These are simply *not* add-able things. 'S the
problem. Would be nice if it were, but it ain't.

Chris Hornbeck

Richard wrote:

Lets see what Behringer claim on their website:
" The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or
hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you
extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and
transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features
direct injection and level conversion functionality."

How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ?

rd

How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ?

Yep alright you have got me there !
This must be the famed Behringer 'Con' and to think we all got
Sidetracked by the LEDs behind the Valve ;-)

"RD Jones"

" The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or
hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you
extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and
transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features
direct injection and level conversion functionality."

How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ?



** The glass bulb of a 12AX7 is both warm & transparent.

The effect is psychological, that is why the tube must be seen to be heard.



.......... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !!


What I miss most about tube gear is the smell of dusty tubes cooking.

Chevdo wrote:
In article ,
says...



I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten
used to people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily
overlook for anyone else...



I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con. We still don't know
whether the tube is or isn't in the circuit, either.

I've got a MIC100 I've been using as a guitar DI for a while - must take it
apart....


--
re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion