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Mike Rivers wrote: "spoil my listening experience, but it's things like gross clipping (not
just "make it louder" clipping" or flutter, not a slight loss of detail
on the ride cymbal.

There are certain forms of music that I wouldn't enjoy even if it was
played from a high resolution WAV file. It's unfortunate that so many
people claim that lower fidelity listening spoils the joy of listening to music"

Absolutely! And remember, differences between formats impact the fidelity far less than client requests and mastering decisions regarding EQ, brickwall limiting, and compression.

I have plenty 128k and 160k mp3s of unremastered sources that are backed up to CD-R & hard drive simply because a lossless unremastered source for those rareties and one-hit wonders is simply no longer available.
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On 1/07/2014 11:19 p.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/1/2014 2:55 AM, geoff wrote:
I've never heard a 128kbps MP3 that I could enjoy though - even in the
car. And my ears are far to old to be considered 'golden' .


I don't "enjoy" the file, I'm entertained by the music. When I'm
driving, my mind is really on something else.



If it sounded any good you may find that you can actually enjoy the music !

As long as I'm hearing
music that's of the type I enjoy, when on the road, the lowest quality
MP3 is better than what I can get on the car radio in most places, or
for very long. There are certain forms of distortion that do indeed
spoil my listening experience, but it's things like gross clipping (not
just "make it louder" clipping" or flutter, not a slight loss of detail
on the ride cymbal.

There are certain forms of music that I wouldn't enjoy even if it was
played from a high resolution WAV file. It's unfortunate that so many
people claim that lower fidelity listening spoils the joy of listening
to music.


I thought you got no joy (above) from music , only entertainment ....

In my car I can easily tell when FM stations are playing {inferiorly)
encoded music. Not all FM stations use mass-streamed feeds, and some
play actual CDs or vinyl exclusively. They also tend to be the ones who
treat their audio processing better.

geoff
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On 7/1/2014 5:24 PM, geoff wrote:

If it sounded any good you may find that you can actually enjoy the music !


It sounds fine, and since I only load up my player with music that I
enjoy, I can enjoy it just fine even if THE FILE that it's playing from
is an MP3.

I thought you got no joy (above) from music , only entertainment ....


I'm not sure I see the difference. I enjoy being entertained by the
music I'm hearing. If I was listening to thrash metal instead of
bluegrass, for examples, I wouldn't enjoy it and I wouldn't be
entertained. Some of this stuff comes off 78s, ferchrissake. Why should
I worry about quality.

In my car I can easily tell when FM stations are playing {inferiorly)
encoded music. Not all FM stations use mass-streamed feeds, and some
play actual CDs or vinyl exclusively. They also tend to be the ones who
treat their audio processing better.


I wish that was true, but even the classical station here buggers up
their music to some extent. Bluegrasscountry.org boosts the low end,
both on their on-line stream and on-air broadcast (which I expect comes
from the same source as the stream). But this doesn't trouble me.
Perhaps some forms of music which I don't listen to become more
offensive when processed for broadcast or on-line streaming (or
downloading), but then if I'm offended by the music when it's in good
shape, I'm not going to listen to it when it's buggered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fJmmDkvQyc
"A Song of Reproduction" - Flanders & Swann


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wrote in message
...
Vinyl, in a car or portable?


Hey it was done once upon a time.

I'll take an MP3 over that.


Me too.

Trevor.


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"geoff" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2014 1:03 a.m., wrote:
Vinyl, in a car or portable?
I'll take an MP3 over that.


Now you are resorting to silliness.


Not at all, both were available once upon a time. Vinyl tended to skip a lot
over bumps in a car though! :-)

Trevor.




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"geoff" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2014 1:03 a.m., wrote:
Vinyl, in a car or portable?
I'll take an MP3 over that.


Now you are resorting to silliness.


Not at all, both were available once upon a time. Vinyl tended to skip a lot
over bumps in a car though! :-)

Trevor.


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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 7/1/2014 2:55 AM, geoff wrote:
I've never heard a 128kbps MP3 that I could enjoy though - even in the
car. And my ears are far to old to be considered 'golden' .


I don't "enjoy" the file, I'm entertained by the music. When I'm driving,
my mind is really on something else. As long as I'm hearing music that's
of the type I enjoy, when on the road, the lowest quality MP3 is better
than what I can get on the car radio in most places, or for very long.
There are certain forms of distortion that do indeed spoil my listening
experience, but it's things like gross clipping (not just "make it louder"
clipping" or flutter, not a slight loss of detail on the ride cymbal.

There are certain forms of music that I wouldn't enjoy even if it was
played from a high resolution WAV file. It's unfortunate that so many
people claim that lower fidelity listening spoils the joy of listening to
music.


Pretty much sums up my opinion. I enjoy, and have certainly paid for over
the years, the highest possible fidelity I can afford for critical
listening. But just as I would rather listen to cassettes in the car than
radio or nothing once upon a time, I'm now quite happy with MP3, even 128kbs
at a pinch, although there is no real reason to use that any more.

Trevor.


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On 7/2/2014 4:14 AM, Trevor wrote:
I enjoy, and have certainly paid for over
the years, the highest possible fidelity I can afford for critical
listening. But just as I would rather listen to cassettes in the car than
radio or nothing once upon a time, I'm now quite happy with MP3, even 128kbs
at a pinch, although there is no real reason to use that any more.


You'd probably be revolted by my car playback system. My car is a 2003
model which has both a cassette and CD player, but the CD player won't
play a data disk, so it won't play audio files on disk. I have a
stand-alone MP3 player (4 GB, $12 at Micro Center) with a cassette
adapter plugged into the headphone output, so the audio path is MP3 -
cassette adapter - cassette player - speakers. Most of what I listen
to are 128 kbps files recorded from whatever Internet stream the station
broadcasts (some 129 kbps some lower). But I like the music, the fact
that it's for the most part selected by a knowledgeable DJ, and without
commercials, political, or religious rantings.

A friend got a new car (2013 Nissan something) with a USB connector on
it. I brought over a thumb drive with some music files to show him what
he could do with it. It would play MP3s, but not WAV. I didn't try other
"lossless" formats like AAC or FLAC.



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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 7/2/2014 4:14 AM, Trevor wrote:
I enjoy, and have certainly paid for over
the years, the highest possible fidelity I can afford for critical
listening. But just as I would rather listen to cassettes in the car than
radio or nothing once upon a time, I'm now quite happy with MP3, even
128kbs
at a pinch, although there is no real reason to use that any more.


You'd probably be revolted by my car playback system. My car is a 2003
model which has both a cassette and CD player, but the CD player won't
play a data disk, so it won't play audio files on disk. I have a
stand-alone MP3 player (4 GB, $12 at Micro Center) with a cassette adapter
plugged into the headphone output, so the audio path is MP3 - cassette
adapter - cassette player - speakers. Most of what I listen to are 128
kbps files recorded from whatever Internet stream the station broadcasts
(some 129 kbps some lower). But I like the music, the fact that it's for
the most part selected by a knowledgeable DJ, and without commercials,
political, or religious rantings.


Not me. I've already got more music than I can listen to in my lifetime, so
I have no need for someone else's idea of what I should listen to,
commercials or otherwise. And while I don't have a problem with MP3 in the
car, a cassette adapter is not something I'd stoop to. You could buy a new
radio/CD/MP3 car player for $100 or so, I can't imagine you can't afford
that. And unlike many new cars, most older ones can fit standard radio's
quite easily.


A friend got a new car (2013 Nissan something) with a USB connector on it.
I brought over a thumb drive with some music files to show him what he
could do with it. It would play MP3s, but not WAV. I didn't try other
"lossless" formats like AAC or FLAC.


Yes, I've found that quite a few don't play .wav, but frankly how many car
systems could justify the difference between 320kbs (or high bit rate VBR)
MP3 and wav anyway? You can get far more MP3's on your USB stick, so why
bother with waves in the car? That cassette adapter OTOH! :-)

Trevor.


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On 7/2/2014 7:48 AM, Trevor wrote:
Not me. I've already got more music than I can listen to in my lifetime, so
I have no need for someone else's idea of what I should listen to,


That's the trouble with kids these days. I occasionally get something
out of my collection to play (in the living room, on real speakers,
sitting on the couch) but I enjoy hearing what's new. Mind you, I don't
run out and buy something because I heard it on the radio and I liked it
(artists trying to make a living may berate me here), it's just
entertainment - here and gone. I make my donations to the radio
stations. I hope that one of these days they work out a way for the
stations to pay the artists.

a cassette adapter is not something I'd stoop to. You could buy a new
radio/CD/MP3 car player for $100 or so, I can't imagine you can't afford
that. And unlike many new cars, most older ones can fit standard radio's
quite easily.


I could afford it, but the radio is so integrated into the dashboard of
the car, with amplifiers scattered here and there, under the seats, in
the trunk, that there's no aftermarket replacement for the built-in
audio system, at least not in the Crutchfield catalog, which I figure is
the bible.

I've had a number of rental cars that have an MP3 player built into the
radio and I've been really disappointed with the way some of them work.
When you turn off the radio or the ignition, it doesn't remember where
you were in the file that was playing. Some of them don't even remember
what file was playing last and starts with the first file in the folder
unless you scroll through the directory listing manually and pick out
the one you want. It might not matter to someone with 1,000 songs on a
memory stick and the player set to random selection, but, I have about a
dozen "songs" each of which is two or three hours long. I have had cars
(I think the Toyota Camry) that do just what I want and simply pick up
playing where it left off, but nobody who writes about cars ever thinks
this is important enough to check and report on.


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On 7/2/2014 8:05 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:


I could afford it, but the radio is so integrated into the dashboard of
the car, with amplifiers scattered here and there, under the seats, in
the trunk, that there's no aftermarket replacement for the built-in
audio system, at least not in the Crutchfield catalog, which I figure is
the bible.

I've had a number of rental cars that have an MP3 player built into the
radio and I've been really disappointed with the way some of them work.
When you turn off the radio or the ignition, it doesn't remember where
you were in the file that was playing. Some of them don't even remember
what file was playing last and starts with the first file in the folder
unless you scroll through the directory listing manually and pick out
the one you want. It might not matter to someone with 1,000 songs on a
memory stick and the player set to random selection, but, I have about a
dozen "songs" each of which is two or three hours long. I have had cars
(I think the Toyota Camry) that do just what I want and simply pick up
playing where it left off, but nobody who writes about cars ever thinks
this is important enough to check and report on.


The other problem, I have heard, is that most of the car stereos
with USB ports will not play .WAV files, so you are forced to convert
to MP3.

If someone knows of a good car stereo with a USB port that will play
both MP3 and WAV, I'd like to know about it.

It would be great to check my mixes in the car, without burning a
CD......

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On 3/07/2014 1:22 p.m., Paul wrote:


The other problem, I have heard, is that most of the car stereos
with USB ports will not play .WAV files, so you are forced to convert
to MP3.

If someone knows of a good car stereo with a USB port that will play
both MP3 and WAV, I'd like to know about it.

It would be great to check my mixes in the car, without burning a
CD......



Car stereos with with iPod capability play ALAC lossless, and presumably
there are IOS apps that allow FLAC to be played (= same thing as
WAV/LPCM, effectively).

But Apple being Apple, maybe they ban FLAC capability from their
AppStore ....


geoff
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geoff wrote: "But Apple being Apple, maybe they ban FLAC capability from their AppStore"


That company will never be the same since Jobs left. But if he could come back? Look. Out. !
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On 7/2/2014 9:22 PM, Paul wrote:
If someone knows of a good car stereo with a USB port that will play
both MP3 and WAV, I'd like to know about it.

It would be great to check my mixes in the car, without burning a
CD......


Burning a CD costs a lot less, and is far less bother, than buying a new
car. But you might want to look for a car (or a radio upgrade) that has
a line input jack. Now that new cars no longer have a cassette player,
when I travel, I leave my cassette adapter in my car at home and carry a
mini phone plug cable to connect my player to the rental car if it has a
jack for it.

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On Thursday, July 3, 2014 6:31:32 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
On 3/07/2014 9:27 p.m., the

l.com wrote:

geoff wrote: "But Apple being Apple, maybe they ban FLAC capability from their AppStore"






That company will never be the same since Jobs left. But if he could come back? Look. Out. !








It was a c**t of a company then, just as now. He was chief c**t at the

time. Let's not make a god out of him.



geoff


Attention, attention! "None.." is masquerading as geoff!
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On Thursday, July 3, 2014 7:46:53 AM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/2/2014 9:22 PM, Paul wrote:

If someone knows of a good car stereo with a USB port that will play


both MP3 and WAV, I'd like to know about it.




It would be great to check my mixes in the car, without burning a


CD......




Burning a CD costs a lot less, and is far less bother, than buying a new

car. But you might want to look for a car (or a radio upgrade) that has

a line input jack. Now that new cars no longer have a cassette player,

when I travel, I leave my cassette adapter in my car at home and carry a

mini phone plug cable to connect my player to the rental car if it has a

jack for it.



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____________

A bit off-topic Mike, but an acquaintance of mine owns a 2012 Subaru Impreza. The stereo is typical modern stock, decent features: CD/FM-AM/Aux in.


Problem is, the head unit has a button for Aux-in, but under the arm-rest console the Aux-jack was not there - labeled Aux but just a plastic cover that resisted all prying off.


So evidently the Aux was an option via Subaru. Still, there shouldn't have been an Aux button on the stereo if an aux jack wasn't ordered by the original buyer! smh
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On 7/3/2014 8:16 AM, wrote:
A bit off-topic Mike, but an acquaintance of mine owns a 2012 Subaru
Impreza. The stereo is typical modern stock, decent features:
CD/FM-AM/Aux in.


Problem is, the head unit has a button for Aux-in, but under the
arm-rest console the Aux-jack was not there - labeled Aux but just a
plastic cover that resisted all prying off.


So evidently the Aux was an option via Subaru. Still, there
shouldn't have been an Aux button on the stereo if an aux jack wasn't
ordered by the original buyer!


That is a bit odd, but then it's a cheap car. Maybe they had only one
radio faceplate. Or maybe they just forgot to install the jack. Does
pressing the button do anything, like change the radio display to Aux?

Or maybe he just didn't look in the right place for the jack. The first
Camry rental I had that had an Aux jack (and a couple of model years
later, a USB jack) had me hunting for the Aux jack. I finally downloaded
the manual from the web site, and with the help of that and a
flashlight, found it under a flip-up cover way at the back (forward) of
one of those open storage compartments in the dashboard. Heck, I had to
get the manual for a Nissan Maxima in order to find out how to open the
gas tank lid. I was looking for a button or level inside the car to
unlatch it. There was about a paragraph of instructions in the manual
involving what serves as an ignition switch (a pushbutton) and some
other switch, and then "The fuel tank door can be opened by pressing on
it."

Obligatory rec.audio.pro content: Don't drop your MP3 player into the
gas filler pipe.

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Mike Rivers wrote: "radio faceplate. Or maybe they just forgot to install the jack. Does pressing the button do anything, like change the radio display to Aux? "

Negatory. Current radio station or CD keeps playing.


"Or maybe he just didn't look in the right place for the jack. "

I thought I mentioned it was under armrest in console - I'm DJ, in passenger side.



Dropping ipod/mp3 in gas filler pipe? LOL never, but I damn near fed it to johnny a couple times.
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Mike Rivers wrote: "know whether it's connected or not because your "test set" doesn't work. "

Test set?

I told you, emperically, everything there is in that Impreza, audio-wise. Under the arm rest, in the cavity where one might store CDs, makeup, golf tees, etc, there is a small black plate upon which is labeled in white text "AUX In". Next to those words is a smaller black plate, maybe 1/2" by 1/2", which looks like a plug - a piece of plastic inserted to occupy the space where an option or feature would, if ordered, be installed.

This is not complicated at all. I just think that the radio installed should reflect the absence(or presense) of all available/ordered features.
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wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote: "know whether it's connected or not because your "test
set" doesn't work. "


I told you, emperically, everything there is in that Impreza, audio-wise.
Under the arm rest, in the cavity where one might store CDs, makeup, golf
tees, etc, there is a small black plate upon which is labeled in white text
"AUX In". Next to those words is a smaller black plate, maybe 1/2" by
1/2", which looks like a plug - a piece of plastic inserted to occupy the
space where an option or feature would, if ordered, be installed.
This is not complicated at all. I just think that the radio installed
should reflect the absence(or presense) of all available/ordered features.


-------------------------------

Well if it's anything like some other cars I've seen, the radio has the
features, and all you need is the wiring harness/socket. Why you think they
should make different radio's, simply to prevent you from installing the
harness yourself is beyond me. Then again these tricks don't actually save
them much money, it's simply to have features that they can charge *much*
more for on higher spec models. :-(

Trevor.




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On Friday, July 4, 2014 7:47:36 AM UTC-4, Trevor wrote:
l.com wrote in message

news:df587781-bc1d-498d-a4broups.com...

Mike Rivers wrote: "know whether it's connected or not because your "test


set" doesn't work. "




I told you, emperically, everything there is in that Impreza, audio-wise..


Under the arm rest, in the cavity where one might store CDs, makeup, golf


tees, etc, there is a small black plate upon which is labeled in white text


"AUX In". Next to those words is a smaller black plate, maybe 1/2" by


1/2", which looks like a plug - a piece of plastic inserted to occupy the


space where an option or feature would, if ordered, be installed.


This is not complicated at all. I just think that the radio installed


should reflect the absence(or presense) of all available/ordered features.




-------------------------------



Well if it's anything like some other cars I've seen, the radio has the

features, and all you need is the wiring harness/socket. Why you think they

should make different radio's, simply to prevent you from installing the

harness yourself is beyond me. Then again these tricks don't actually save

them much money, it's simply to have features that they can charge *much*

more for on higher spec models. :-(



Trevor.

__________

The reason they shouldn't use the same faceplate(one with an Aux button) where an aux jack is not installed is that it's FRUSTRATING - not just for my friend but for anyone in such a situation.

You all pile into the ride, road trip to... wherever, and your passengers all want to take turns deejaying. So the one in front presses aux, and looks on the dash, no aux jack. Looks under the arm rest, sees this plate engraved "Aux In", but no mini jack! Major bummer, unless the car has Bluetooth..

Which in that case, if it's too cheap to supply an Aux jack, why would it have bluetooth? smh at the whole mess...
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On 7/4/2014 7:47 AM, Trevor wrote:

Well if it's anything like some other cars I've seen, the radio has the
features, and all you need is the wiring harness/socket. Why you think they
should make different radio's, simply to prevent you from installing the
harness yourself is beyond me. Then again these tricks don't actually save
them much money, it's simply to have features that they can charge *much*
more for on higher spec models. :-(


Back in the 1960s when not all cars had air conditioning, you could rent
a car with or without. If you rented it without, they simply unplugged
the wire to the compressor clutch. But you don't want to know how I know
that, do you?


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Mike Rivers wrote:

Again: You're way overcomplicating things. Did I mention anywhere that my friends stereo had Bluetooth?

How could I test something that doesn't exist in this setup? There's no BT button anywhere.

I gave you all the facts 5 or 6 posts ago.
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wrote in message
...
Again: You're way overcomplicating things. Did I mention anywhere
that my friends stereo had Bluetooth?


"Major bummer, unless the car has Bluetooth."

How could I test something that doesn't exist in this setup?
There's no BT button anywhere.


Then why did you bring up Bluetooth?

I gave you all the facts 5 or 6 posts ago.


Poor baby. Time for your nap?

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Mike Rivers wrote: "On 7/4/2014 1:58 PM, wrote:
Again: You're way overcomplicating things. Did I mention anywhere that my friends stereo had Bluetooth?


No, but you DID mention Bluetooth.
- show quoted text -"

Read carefully. I mentioned BT in the **context**(see there's that word again - everyone takes K-Man out of context dammit!) of a car that dispensed with a physical Aux In in favor of Bluetooth.

I then - listen closely - said that wouldn't make sense to put in a higher end interface(BT) in lieu of a 'low end' jack.

I never implied that my friend's Impreza had BT capability.


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kbaby sucks @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
I then - listen closely - said that wouldn't make sense to put in a
higher end interface(BT) in lieu of a 'low end' jack.


Bluetooth is "higher end" than a jack? Nobody has to take you out of
context, K-infant. Your own posts stand alone as a testament to what
an ignorant little child you are.


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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 05/07/2014 15:05, None wrote:
kbaby sucks @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
I then - listen closely - said that wouldn't make sense to put in a
higher end interface(BT) in lieu of a 'low end' jack.


Bluetooth is "higher end" than a jack? Nobody has to take you out of
context, K-infant. Your own posts stand alone as a testament to what an
ignorant little child you are.


In the marketing world, Bluetooth connectivity rates far higher than any
feeble piece pof wire...

In the real world, give me the wire every time.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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[email protected] thekmanrocks@gmail.com is offline
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John Williamson wrote: "the real world, give me the wire every time. "

+1!!
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 6/07/2014 2:05 a.m., None wrote:
kbaby sucks @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
I then - listen closely - said that wouldn't make sense to put in a
higher end interface(BT) in lieu of a 'low end' jack.


Bluetooth is "higher end" than a jack? Nobody has to take you out of
context, K-infant. Your own posts stand alone as a testament to what an
ignorant little child you are.




Also, Bluetooth is inherently a lossy format. Wire can be full-spec linear.

geoff
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Back in the 1960s when not all cars had air conditioning, you could rent a
car with or without. If you rented it without, they simply unplugged the
wire to the compressor clutch. But you don't want to know how I know that,
do you?


Obviously everyone (and their friends) who had to disconnect that wire knew
about it, and anyone else with some mechanical knowledge who wondered why
there was air-con controls, compressor etc. fitted to the car, but no cold
air :-)

Trevor.




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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message
...

Also, Bluetooth is inherently a lossy format.


Is it? How would it work, then, with a printer connection? Or a MindStorms
brick?

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 06/07/2014 14:23, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...

Also, Bluetooth is inherently a lossy format.


Is it? How would it work, then, with a printer connection? Or a
MindStorms brick?


Sloppy phrasing, I fear. Bluetooth uses a number of different protocols,
not all of which guarantee perfect data transfer.

The maximum guaranteed data rate that Bluetooth supports can't support
real time streaming of uncompressed audio data, especially at or near
its range limit.

Also, printers don't care *when* a particular packet arrives, they just
patiently wait for it, and Mindstorms don't use *that* much data.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 06/07/2014 12:03, Trevor wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Back in the 1960s when not all cars had air conditioning, you could rent a
car with or without. If you rented it without, they simply unplugged the
wire to the compressor clutch. But you don't want to know how I know that,
do you?


Obviously everyone (and their friends) who had to disconnect that wire knew
about it, and anyone else with some mechanical knowledge who wondered why
there was air-con controls, compressor etc. fitted to the car, but no cold
air :-)

Who amount to about 1% of the expected hirers for that car, I'd say.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...

Also, Bluetooth is inherently a lossy format.


Is it? How would it work, then, with a printer connection? Or a MindStorms
brick?


Different protocol. Physical layer is the same, but up above it isn't.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 06/07/2014 12:03, Trevor wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Back in the 1960s when not all cars had air conditioning, you could rent
a
car with or without. If you rented it without, they simply unplugged the
wire to the compressor clutch. But you don't want to know how I know
that,
do you?


Obviously everyone (and their friends) who had to disconnect that wire
knew
about it, and anyone else with some mechanical knowledge who wondered why
there was air-con controls, compressor etc. fitted to the car, but no
cold
air :-)

Who amount to about 1% of the expected hirers for that car, I'd say.


Probably true, which is why they wouldn't care. It does amaze me the lengths
some companies go to, to stuff their customers around in the hope of an
extra buck though. Nothing has changed on that score.

Trevor.


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