[Gary Eickmeier]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period in
experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic,
auto, etc., EQ in one box.

Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the
reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already
have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work OK.
There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway.

Got to think long and hard on this one.

Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army
knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack and
one for the home rack.

But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so try
to leave some space around it in the rack.

Sean

Sean - and everyone -

One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with processing.
But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the
power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the
various gains of all program material I put into it.

But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use
to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the
device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set
the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits
being overloaded.

I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that I
find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component,
just as a recording console accessory.

What am I missing here?

Gary

[PStamler]

On Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:47:40 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the
power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the
various gains of all program material I put into it.

Please get your terms straight; if you're feeding in program material at various levels, then "levels" is the right term, and "gain" isn't. A signal doesn't have gain; a circuit does.


But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use
to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the
device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set
the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits
being overloaded.

There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is too high, the device will distort.

This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging.

Peace,
Paul

PS You also wrote:


Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component,

just as a recording console accessory.

It's mostly intended for sound reinforcement systems, especially permanently-installed ones.

What am I missing here?

Like I said, go read the Yamaha Handbook.

[Sean Conolly]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period
in
experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic,
auto, etc., EQ in one box.

Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the
reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already
have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work OK.
There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway.

Got to think long and hard on this one.

Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army
knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack and
one for the home rack.

But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so
try to leave some space around it in the rack.

Sean

Sean - and everyone -

One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with
processing. But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver
and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to
handle the various gains of all program material I put into it.

But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use
to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of
the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able
to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp
circuits being overloaded.

I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that I
find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi
component, just as a recording console accessory.

What am I missing here?

The input level is line level plus some headroom, and the EQs and limiter
each have a gain adjustment so you can adjust the final level quite a bit,
albeit with a bit of fiddling. There's probably more than I can remember
right now - all my stuff is line level so I just do the basic gain staging.

And it's not just for recording, for live use I run mine as the final stage
before a 2KW amp.

Sean

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period
in
experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic,
auto, etc., EQ in one box.

Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the
reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already
have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work
OK. There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway.

Got to think long and hard on this one.

Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army
knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack
and one for the home rack.

But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so
try to leave some space around it in the rack.

Sean

Sean - and everyone -

One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with
processing. But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver
and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to
handle the various gains of all program material I put into it.

But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to
use to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out
of the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be
able to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the
preamp circuits being overloaded.

I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that
I find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi
component, just as a recording console accessory.

What am I missing here?

The input level is line level plus some headroom, and the EQs and limiter
each have a gain adjustment so you can adjust the final level quite a bit,
albeit with a bit of fiddling. There's probably more than I can remember
right now - all my stuff is line level so I just do the basic gain
staging.

And it's not just for recording, for live use I run mine as the final
stage before a 2KW amp.

Sean

OK, so there must be enough headroom in it to drive a power amp to any level
I desire. So I don't have to put it in a tape loop and set it to a certain
level.

Gary

[Gary Eickmeier]

PStamler wrote:

There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or
the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of
equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which
signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is
too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is
too high, the device will distort.

This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound
Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging.

So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer
says I can. Here is their reply:

"Hello Gary,

I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12
o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you
normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how
you are requesting.

--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Gary Eickmeier ]
Sent: 5/16/2014 10:06 AM
To:
Subject: Behringer (MUSIC Group Support Case 00200534) "FBQ6200" [
ref:_00D90YvhK._50090MGZs4:ref ]

Jeff -

No, it doesn't help. If I may put the equalizer in line to the power
amplifier, I need it to pass on any level I choose to listen at. But if the
unit requires a certain single signal level, then it cannot be used after
the receiver, because I will be changing the signal level all the time.

If it can't be used in this way, please let me know. If it has to be in some
signal processor loop, like a tape loop, let me know. The manual is not very
good on the uses of the unit."

Gary Eickmeier

So there must be enough headroom in the 6200 to handle
all of the settings I might need in the future. I will try it tomorrow,
after I take another reading of my current frequency response. Will let you
know just how it works.

Gary

[PStamler]

On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:17:26 PM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer
says I can. Here is their reply:



"Hello Gary,



I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12
o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you
normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how
you are requesting.

I didn't say you couldn't use it after the receiver; I said that you needed to set it in such a way that it wouldn't overload, and the tech from Behringer suggested a setting that would accomplish that, probably pretty close to unity gain.

You're using it with consumer equipment, which means, to oversimplify, that the limiting stage will be the power amp. If you're using the preamp and not clipping the power amp now, you probably won't clip the power amp with the EQ in the chain either, unless you use crazy boost settings on the EQ -- which is a bad idea anyway.

Peace,
Paul

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver?

It might introduce more noise when used like that. Better to use it before
the pre-amp volume control so it receives a 'constant' level. If there is
an insert point or even a tape loop.

--
*War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[William Sommerwerck]

Gary, my understanding is that you've been doing your research for years. How
can you be ignorant of what equipment does, what its limitations are, and how
it's connected?

My late friend Bill Hamlin was an English major and an actor. He had no
technical training whatever, yet he could rip a hi-fi system apart and put it
back together without having to even glance at the instructions. I knew him
for 35 years, and never once had to explain any of this to him.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Gary, my understanding is that you've been doing your research for years.
How can you be ignorant of what equipment does, what its limitations are,
and how it's connected?

William,

I suspect you don't see the problem, or potential problem. Of course I will
see what this particular piece does when I hook it up as I plan to, and as
the Behringer people say that it can be, but there is still an interesting
situation that I have not seen before. I have been doing audio systems for -
let's see - 55 years since my first separates system as a teenager. Built
the Heathkit amp, used preamp and other components. But my real education
came with my film work, doing multiple track sync sound on Super 8 mag film
with flatbed, three sync recorders, mixers - well, I don't need to explain
myself to you over an insult.

Here is the point in a nutshell. If it needs to be input at a constant
level, then it makes no sense to put it after a volume control. If it needs
to be used in a tape loop of some sort, then I would have no control over
the sub out level. This thing seems to be designed as part of a live sound
system for large rooms, DJs, etc, rather than a hi fi component as such.
They seem to think that the main sound that will be going into it will be
from microphones, hence all of their talk about feedback control at certain
frequencies.

My receiver has but one opportunity for a processor loop, which is sort of a
tape loop for CDRs or other little recorders. But I can't press that button
unless I want to UN-press my input select button, such as CD. When digital
came out, with the HD video and all, I had to go to a receiver rather than
my usual preamp/ power amp, which changed the whole game.

So the design intent and amount of headroom and correct usage and running
the signal up and down the range of acceptable input to the unit were my
main questions, which this group should certainly be familiar with! I
thought maybe this was something that most members used all the time, so
just checking because I am big on design intent and not using something
outside its range.

Got a big video job right now, will install the thing when I get back and
report back.

Gary

[None]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...
I have been doing audio systems for - let's see - 55 years since my
first separates system as a teenager.

Wow. A lot of people learn the essentials after only a few years. Yet
you are, in many ways, a complete novice, without the ability to grasp
even the most elementary audio concepts. It wouldn't take long to
learn the basics, such as reading the Yamaha book that's been
recommended to you so many times. Why do you refuse to educate
yourself? Have you just given up on ever understanding the rudimentary
basics of audio? Have you just decided that you'll never want to take
the training wheels off?

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

They seem to think that the main sound that will be going into it will be
from microphones, hence all of their talk about feedback control at certain
frequencies.

It can be used with the intended measurement mic for acoustical
analysis. It can be used on an auxiliary output feeding stage monitors,
or on the master outputs, matrix outputs, anywhere one might stick an
equalizer, because that's what it is.

As such it is most often deployed following some sort of gain control,
such as the controls for managing levels for those various functions.

It's only mic input is for the measurement mic, is not a balanced input,
and therefore, the DEQ2496 is not intended to receive typical microphone
levels at its XLR inputs.

It can be used very gently, with broad Q settings, and it can be used
extremely precisely with very tight Q settings, and it can do both of
those job simultaneously. It can be set to react only to signals above
specified levels, and much more.

There is a tremendous amount of information in the manual.

I don't know how in this world one gets from the amount of experience
you claim to have, to writing the sentence I have quoted above.
William's point is cogent: to what have you been paying attention while
supposedly gathering all that audio "experience"? Certainly some of the
simplest fundamentals have escaped you completely, while you claim to be
advancing the science of music reproduction.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

None wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...
I have been doing audio systems for - let's see - 55 years since my
first separates system as a teenager.

Wow. A lot of people learn the essentials after only a few years. Yet
you are, in many ways, a complete novice, without the ability to grasp
even the most elementary audio concepts. It wouldn't take long to
learn the basics, such as reading the Yamaha book that's been
recommended to you so many times. Why do you refuse to educate
yourself? Have you just given up on ever understanding the rudimentary
basics of audio? Have you just decided that you'll never want to take
the training wheels off?


He's too busy designing the successor to the unicycle to bother with
unloading the training wheels.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Hank]

In article ,
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
PStamler wrote:

There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or
the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of
equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which
signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is
too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is
too high, the device will distort.

This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound
Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging.

So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer
says I can. Here is their reply:

"Hello Gary,

I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12
o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you
normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how
you are requesting.

Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one
consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll
need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier
input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish
this.

Hank

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Hank" wrote in message
...

Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one
consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll
need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier
input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish
this.

Hank,

I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be
so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver."....

Just kidding, adding to the hilarity from Summerwerck and None.

Mine is a Pioneer of some years back vintage, but it has most of the
features of a modern receiver. As I said, I was forced to go the receiver
route when video connection and Dolby decoding for film tracks and HD video
pass through became necessary. Mine has amplifiers in it, but I don't use
most of them. I go pre out to some Carver M 1.5 amplifiers and to the main
speakers, and sub out to the Velodyne with its internal amplifier. However,
the power amps are still available inside the receiver, and I take advantage
of that in feeding my center channel from the center speaker feed out, and
two extra surround speakers from the surround amp connection of the
receiver.

This all works just fine, but the Behringer is slightly strange to me in
their description of how it is to be used. It has the subwoofer output but
that would make no sense in a tape loop connection. But even if I didn't
want the sub output on the Behringer, I am having trouble picturing using
the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that
button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. And no,
there is no mike input on the Behringer - they expect it to get the mike
feed from the mixing board.

Gary

[None]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you
claim and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver."....

am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external
processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I
can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner.

So, despite your gibbering, you don't know how to work a receiver.
It's as if you're begging to be mocked for your ignorance, yet again.
You're having serious problems with rudimentary concepts like how to
connect things together, and elementary gain staging. Maybe your
bizarre concept that a signal has gain is part of the problem. As long
as you pretend that you know what you're doing, you'll be a
laughingstock.

[John Williamson]

On 18/05/2014 13:49, None wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim
and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver."....

am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external
processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I
can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner.

So, despite your gibbering, you don't know how to work a receiver. It's
as if you're begging to be mocked for your ignorance, yet again. You're
having serious problems with rudimentary concepts like how to connect
things together, and elementary gain staging. Maybe your bizarre concept
that a signal has gain is part of the problem. As long as you pretend
that you know what you're doing, you'll be a laughingstock.


He's also confusing domestic gear with professional gear. A`professional
setup would have the connections available to do what he wants, but
would need setting up correctly, while the stuff he has doesn't, and
comes almost ready set up from the maker, while conforming to very few
standards.

I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on
any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they
were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news
I am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an
external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I
can't also press CD or Video
or FM Tuner.

Then it's not a "tape loop". There's no loop!

The Tape Monitor switch was intended for three-head machines. * Throwing the
switch let you hear either the source program, or the actual recording coming
back from the deck. That's what made them so convenient for signal-processing
equipment.

* Are you aware there are true three-head DATs, that actually monitor off the
tape?

[Scott Dorsey]

John Williamson wrote:

I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on
any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they
were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind.

You want to put the device in-between the preamplifier and the amplifier.
If you do not have a break-in loop for that (and some receivers do),
then you have a problem.

The output of the tape loop is _before_ the preamp gain control, while
the original poster wants a point to break in after the gain control.

The tape loop is not where you want to be. If the receiver you have does
not allow you to pull a signal out before the power amp stages, you'll have
to do a little soldering and install connectors there.

Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of upgrading
could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the
current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as possible
and may be omitting such handy features.

My suggestion to the original poster is to ditch the receiver and go with
seperates, and move the receiver to another system where you can watch movies.
The system you want for movie soundtracks is totally different than the system
you want for realistic stereo reproduction; the speaker and room arrangements
are not the same and the requirements for the speakers are different. Attempts
to use the same system for both film surround playback and stereo music playback
result only in poor compromises of both.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
John Williamson wrote:

I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on
any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they
were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind.

You want to put the device in-between the preamplifier and the amplifier.
If you do not have a break-in loop for that (and some receivers do),
then you have a problem.

The output of the tape loop is _before_ the preamp gain control, while
the original poster wants a point to break in after the gain control.

The tape loop is not where you want to be. If the receiver you have does
not allow you to pull a signal out before the power amp stages, you'll
have
to do a little soldering and install connectors there.

Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of
upgrading
could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the
current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as
possible
and may be omitting such handy features.

My suggestion to the original poster is to ditch the receiver and go with
seperates, and move the receiver to another system where you can watch
movies.
The system you want for movie soundtracks is totally different than the
system
you want for realistic stereo reproduction; the speaker and room
arrangements
are not the same and the requirements for the speakers are different.
Attempts
to use the same system for both film surround playback and stereo music
playback
result only in poor compromises of both.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my receiver
just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a recorder
connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select my
source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to
do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the
Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can play
it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it
simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old
days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works a
little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as CD,
and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape.
That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new equalizer,
but as is I'm afraid not.

So why did I select a receiver rather than a separate digital signal
peamp/processor? Because those things cost a fortune! At least when I was
shopping for them. The receiver has been very convenient for a choice of
using it as a preamp only, with separate power amps, and also being able to
use its internal amps as a set of free power amps for additional speakers,
but I hadn't run up against this particular problem before and was very
surprised that I couldn't use it that way.

So I will try it today as a line level but after the volume control
processor between the preamp and power amp. If that works out OK, I will be
happy enough, because I will also be able to use its mono Sub Out feature
with crossover.

Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or
some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its main
mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their
sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for
equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and
speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible
feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description
of the design intent?

Thanks again,
Gary

[Gary Eickmeier]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
I am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an
external processor because if I need to press that button on the
receiver, I can't also press CD or Video
or FM Tuner.

Then it's not a "tape loop". There's no loop!

The Tape Monitor switch was intended for three-head machines. * Throwing
the switch let you hear either the source program, or the actual recording
coming back from the deck. That's what made them so convenient for
signal-processing equipment.

Yes, I know William. That is the point of this whole discussion. Please see
my response to Scott above.

* Are you aware there are true three-head DATs, that actually monitor off
the tape?

I bypassed DAT in my little audio career. Was not doing recording at that
time yet. I saw the Sony PCM F1 in action a couple of times, but have never
experienced DAT.

This leads to a discussion of modern digital recorders, which I had not been
concerned about because they do not need a source/tape monitor function - do
they? We record direct to the memory chip, and that's pretty much that. No
need to check the source against the recording, because - well, I suppose
because you have already checked out the ADC and DAC for accuracy and would
not be using them for professional use if they weren't accurate. Nor could
you read off the chip at the same time as you are recording onto it. I
remember John Atkinson demoing the Sony PCM F1's accuracy at a hi fi show in
England in around 1982. He would insert the recorder between the source (LP
I think) and the playback system and switch between the two. But video
recorders in those days I think had separate record and playback heads, so
if there was no malfunction in the recording onto tape, all he was showing
was the quality of the ADC/DAC throughput. There was no difference, by the
way.

Gary

[PStamler]

On Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:24:53 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
What I can picture as its main
mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their
sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for
equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and
speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible
feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description
of the design intent?

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

"Hank" wrote in message
...

Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one
consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll
need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier
input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish
this.

Hank,

I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be
so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver."....

Just kidding, adding to the hilarity from Summerwerck and None.

Know what's funny? Know how there is more than just one guy named
"Gary"? It's like that for guys named "Hank", too.

Reading€¦

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Gary Eickmeier]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Know what's funny? Know how there is more than just one guy named
"Gary"? It's like that for guys named "Hank", too.

I suspected as much, but I don't think I said anything that would confuse
you with Other Hank.

Gary

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/18/2014 10:02 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of upgrading
could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the
current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as possible
and may be omitting such handy features.

Modern receivers don't have tape outputs and inputs because nobody has a
recorder as part of their home listening system any more. Why record
anything when you can just download it? Those who use a computer as a
recorder and a record as the source are a special breed. If the project
doesn't justify a purpose built phono preamp, a 20 year old stereo
receiver from Goodwill or Craig's List will do the job nicely.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then

[Sean Conolly]

"PStamler" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:24:53 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
What I can picture as its main
mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to
their
sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for
equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s)
and
speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate
possible
feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good
description
of the design intent?

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's
output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would
go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer.

Yep. K.I.S.S.

Sean

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing
board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's
output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer.

Yep. K.I.S.S.

Sean

Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the
preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the
adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at
first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The
solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a
mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter
cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded
by using it after the receiver.

Of course I am still playing with it, but the sound is great, full, rich,
dynamic and freq response is now controllable, tho I didn't seem to need
much. It is really lovely having that subwoofer output with adjustable
crossover and level, because now I can equalize the bass region as well.

And the answer to the musical question about modern hi fi receivers is that
there is no tape loop that can act as an external processor loop for
equipment such as the 2496 parametric equalizer. The dumbest feature is that
the power switch is on the back of the thing!

Gary Eickmeier

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 5/21/2014 8:38 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing
board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's
output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer.

Yep. K.I.S.S.

Sean

Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the
preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the
adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at
first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The
solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a
mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter
cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded
by using it after the receiver.

Of course I am still playing with it, but the sound is great, full, rich,
dynamic and freq response is now controllable, tho I didn't seem to need
much. It is really lovely having that subwoofer output with adjustable
crossover and level, because now I can equalize the bass region as well.

And the answer to the musical question about modern hi fi receivers is that
there is no tape loop that can act as an external processor loop for
equipment such as the 2496 parametric equalizer. The dumbest feature is that
the power switch is on the back of the thing!

Gary Eickmeier


I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front
and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the
ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ?

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front
and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the
ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ?

==
Later...
Ron Capik

Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear
that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread,
not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my
system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a
digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need.

Gary

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 5/22/2014 1:29 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front
and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the
ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ?

==
Later...
Ron Capik

Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear
that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread,
not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my
system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a
digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need.

Gary


Gary,
You can use the 2496 the same way as the 6400, though you
won't have a sub crossover/output.

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my receiver
just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a recorder
connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select my
source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to
do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the
Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can play
it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it
simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old
days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works a
little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as CD,
and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape.
That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new equalizer,
but as is I'm afraid not.

You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and
get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are
normally configured.

Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or
some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its main
mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their
sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for
equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and
speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible
feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description
of the design intent?

No, normally this device is used as a speaker processor, that is it comes
in-between the main outputs of the PA console and the speaker systems.
Something like this is used in every PA system in the world pretty much,
although in a lot of cases you will find cruder devices like third-octave
equalizers in use.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the
preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the
adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at
first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The
solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a
mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter
cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded
by using it after the receiver.

Suicide plugs are a very, very stupid idea.

Fix the ground loop by properly configuring the signal wiring rather than
using the suicide plug.

Using a suicide plug on a job is the best way to get instantly fired in the
pro audio world.

In the pro audio world we live with differential inputs and differentially
driven outputs so doing hazardous things is not necessary.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the
preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the
adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at
first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The
solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a
mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter
cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded
by using it after the receiver.

Suicide plugs are a very, very stupid idea.

Fix the ground loop by properly configuring the signal wiring rather than
using the suicide plug.

Using a suicide plug on a job is the best way to get instantly fired in the
pro audio world.

In the pro audio world we live with differential inputs and differentially
driven outputs so doing hazardous things is not necessary.


Scott, you've done a service mentioning this to Gary.

These days, with most modern wiring systems properly installed, particularly in the
context of a "home system" (contrasted with going hundreds of feet between a
console and an amp room), he should not have been able to "solve" the problem by
using a cheater. If he did, the power system likely has some sort of fault, and
perhaps a serious one at that.

Gary, at the very least go out and get one of those $5.00 plug-in wiring checkers.
You plug them in, and the lamp pattern will indicate open ground, open neutral,
flipped hot/neutral/ground, et al. If it's not normal, and you're not absolutely
clear on how to fix whatever you've found wrong, get a licensed electrician. (If
you're selling the place in a few years you'll likely have to do this anyway just to
protect yourself from liability post sale.)

If it shows "normal" you still might want to get an electrician, or start looking
for big leakages between ground and neutral, among other things. (Problem with the
quick testers is that they can't really show "in between" issues that could still be
a problem.)

Your hum problem might be the "canary in the coal mine" for your house wiring. (If
you're in Florida and the house is more than 10-20 years old, I'd start looking
carefully at all the wiring, especially anything going underground. Saw some pretty
weird (and dangerous) problems with older AC wiring in the soggy northwest. Water
won't only rot your wood, it'll play havoc with electrical wiring.)

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front
and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the
ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ?

==
Later...
Ron Capik

Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear
that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread,
not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my
system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a
digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need.

Gary

Put a DEQ 2496 in series with the output of the receiver. For what do
you need a loop?

Note as well that I doubt anyone here would have suggested the FBQ6200.
It has nowhere near flexiblity equivalent to the DEQ2496.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and
get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are
normally configured.

I wonder how many times this will be told to Gary?

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my
receiver
just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a
recorder
connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select
my
source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to
do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the
Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can
play
it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it
simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old
days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works
a
little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as
CD,
and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape.
That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new
equalizer,
but as is I'm afraid not.

You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook
and
get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are
normally configured.

Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or
some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its
main
mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their
sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for
equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s)
and
speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate
possible
feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good
description
of the design intent?

No, normally this device is used as a speaker processor, that is it comes
in-between the main outputs of the PA console and the speaker systems.
Something like this is used in every PA system in the world pretty much,
although in a lot of cases you will find cruder devices like third-octave
equalizers in use.
--scott

OK, thanks for the advice. I would have to call an electrician in to check
my house wiring, just to make sure. The facts are, my house was built in
1989 by a builder who was slightly incompetent and hired some of the
cheapest subs. I believe that my wiring was done by his handyman and not an
electrician, on the theory that everything would be inspected by the county
anyway, so why waste money on electricians? Just do it according to code and
save a buck.

Well, I ordered the wiring for my control room to have four 20 amp lines.
When I got there dor a first look at how it was going, I saw just two lines
running from the box to my audio plugs. They just assumed no normal person
needs anything more than that for a hi fi system. So I ordered them to run
the other two, and make sure they were all 20 Amps. They did it, but who
knows how competently. Half the light switches in the house were installed
upside down, so that I had to press the bottom to turn it on, and vice
versa. I was living in California and selling the old house during the first
3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity
checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be able to
orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right way. Didn't keep
records on it, but is that what you mean? Anyway, I should have it checked
thoroughly to make sure the grounds are connected to earth.

One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has always
been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer being inserted
between the receiver and power amps is the first time I have had any
problems.

Gary Eickmeier

[Frank Stearns]

"Gary Eickmeier" writes:

snips

OK, thanks for the advice. I would have to call an electrician in to check
my house wiring, just to make sure. The facts are, my house was built in
1989 by a builder who was slightly incompetent and hired some of the
cheapest subs. I believe that my wiring was done by his handyman and not an
electrician, on the theory that everything would be inspected by the county
anyway, so why waste money on electricians? Just do it according to code and
save a buck.

the other two, and make sure they were all 20 Amps. They did it, but who

Hmm. Why 80 amps? Are those breakers all on the same bus bar?

3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity
checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be able to
orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right way. Didn't keep

Well, unless it's really old stuff, the polarized pin should get you right. If not
polarized, then we hope there's a double insulated transformer in the device.

records on it, but is that what you mean? Anyway, I should have it checked
thoroughly to make sure the grounds are connected to earth.

That, and leakage currents.


One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has always
been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer being inserted
between the receiver and power amps is the first time I have had any
problems.

Well, could be that the new Behringer is at fault and putting a cheater on it simply
means that you put a mask on the problem -- but something could still wrong with it
internally. Uli has been in trouble before IIRC, including fake UL stickers.
(Actually, might be the classic "pin 1" problem on the box.)

What's the I/O? XLR? TRS? RCA? If XLR or TRS and you're coming from or going to
unbalanced gear, what are you doing with the low side (Pin 3 on XLRs or ring on TRS
plugs.)

Finally, remember that Berhinger price-points mean that they cut a LOT of corners in
design and parts quality.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[Sean Conolly]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing
board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's
output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the
mixer.

Yep. K.I.S.S.

Sean

... and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was
contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the
ground pin.

As has been pointed out - this is never a good idea. A simple solution is to
run everything off the same phase of power, which is easy to test by running
everything from one outlet. And I do mean *everything* that is electrically
connected by cables including your signal source.

Sean

[Gary Eickmeier]

Frank Stearns wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" writes:

Hmm. Why 80 amps? Are those breakers all on the same bus bar?

I suppose so.


3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity
checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be
able to orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right
way. Didn't keep

Well, unless it's really old stuff, the polarized pin should get you
right. If not polarized, then we hope there's a double insulated
transformer in the device.

I have lots of equipment that doesn't have the polarized prongs on the plug.


One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has
always been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer
being inserted between the receiver and power amps is the first time
I have had any problems.

Well, could be that the new Behringer is at fault and putting a
cheater on it simply means that you put a mask on the problem -- but
something could still wrong with it internally. Uli has been in
trouble before IIRC, including fake UL stickers. (Actually, might be
the classic "pin 1" problem on the box.)

This Behringer is starting to annoy me. I just tested my response with the
sub turned OFF, and I was getting full readings in the bass region from the
main speakers. This means that the crossover is not working for me,
preventing the lowest freqs from reaching the main speakers. I will now have
to figure out a new way of doing it, probably with the receiver's crossover
I also have the Richter. Or I could purchase some other accessory crossover.

But why would they do this? Apparently the sub output of the Behringer is
just another output for the subwoofer, but does not prevent the full range
from going out to the main speakers.



What's the I/O? XLR? TRS? RCA? If XLR or TRS and you're coming from
or going to unbalanced gear, what are you doing with the low side
(Pin 3 on XLRs or ring on TRS plugs.)

One strange incident - the sub out has only the XLR output. The manual says
to bridge pins 1 and 3, but my music center that sold me the adapter said
that wasn't necessary because pin 1 is ground already.


Finally, remember that Berhinger price-points mean that they cut a
LOT of corners in design and parts quality.

Frank
Mobile Audio

Yes, maybe so.

Gary

[hank alrich]

Sean Conolly wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message

Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing
board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's
output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the
mixer.

Yep. K.I.S.S.

Sean

... and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was
contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the
ground pin.

As has been pointed out - this is never a good idea. A simple solution is to
run everything off the same phase of power, which is easy to test by running
everything from one outlet. And I do mean *everything* that is electrically
connected by cables including your signal source.

Yes, the Beri might be the problem, or it might be revealing a problem
with the rest of the system. In short heh it's not worth getting
electrocuted over. Get out the VOM and start looking for the "why?"
behind it to make sure things are installed and conifured safely.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Gary Eickmeier]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Put a DEQ 2496 in series with the output of the receiver. For what do
you need a loop?

I was just thinking that a digital I/O would need to ramain at a certain
level, but the 6200 is doing fine on level, just not so fine on what it is
supposed to be doing for me.

Note as well that I doubt anyone here would have suggested the FBQ6200.
It has nowhere near flexiblity equivalent to the DEQ2496.

Might just take you up on that. I'm pretty sure I can return this thing to
Parts Express.

Gary