[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
Deb Cowan wrote:

On 1/6/12 8:24 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sean wrote in message
...
"Steve wrote in message
31.10...
(hank alrich) wrote in news:1kde7mq.1pyo0ig1sejgr8N%
:

We're making pennies off the current system of digital distribution and I
cringe everytime I hear a compressed version of a tune I'm familiar with.
Earbuds, Pods/Pads, computers and such are becoming the dominant playback
devices. I don't think my niece and nephew even own a stereo system.

This is a point I was considering recently - I actually know very few
people who have a decent home stereo now, because they're all just using
whatever they can connect to the computer or the TV.

Eventually people are going to rediscover how good uncompressed music can
sound, and how enjoyable it can be on it's own without some kind of video.
They may even start to rediscover how good LIVE music can be, surpassing
even the best recordings.

I am unsure about this. Reproduced sound has gotten so good that the
incentive to go to a live concert is vastly diminished.

Some years back I was invited to a so-called live concert and my mental
process was something like this:

The venue has thousands of seats and even though it is one of the best large
music venues in town, its day job is being a basketball stadium.

Their sound system isn't nearly as good as my home stereo. Their mixers are
questionable.

Some of the acts will be working with video that isn't as good as the large
screen HDTV at home.

The venue is so large that I will end up listening to their sound system and
watching their video.

I think I will stay home and if anything spend the money on several of the
artist's recordings, given the costs of even cheap concert tickets.


I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I do want to
say that here in the US at least, the small intimate venue is
quite popular. An example of this would be the house concert,
where there is hardly ever a sound system used. Some homes have
some excellent acoustics as do some venues whose capacity is
about 100.

I am a performer and for me, the smaller venues are wonderful. I
love the intimacy of performer and audience. As an audience
member, I love these venues as well. I will never ever go back
to the stadium concert. Besides, I just cannot afford the ticket
prices these days.

So, Amy-seek out the small venue with wonderful acoustics and no
sound system.

Debra Cowan

Hey Deb! Happy New Year!

I couldn't agree more. Small is great. For both of my performance
careers (classical and guitar) I love the small places.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Sean Conolly]

wrote in message
...

On 2012-01-07 said:

I'm surprised at how many people who read my comment are only
thinking of reinforced music, or just music in a large hall.
Go hear a group of really good players in an intimate setting, like
where you're sitting 15 feet from the performers, and listen to the
sound of a good upright bas or piano, acoustic guitar or sax.
There's a visceral aspect that just isn't captured by recording,
which is why the recordings are never as satisfying as being there
- if you actually were there.

Indeed, and even with the best hands on the controls there's
something that gets lost when it gets reinforced imho. Mr.
Dorsey and i have both presented this argument in
rec.audio.pro over the years. MOst folks don't know how to
listen, or have never listened to musical instruments sans
amplifiers and speakers.

My point is that the vast majority of people today have NEVER heard
music like this. The best stuff they've heard live is crap bands
playing through crap PA's, and the only good stuff they've heard
was compressed through earbuds. Of course most people don't know
how to really shut up their thoughts, focus and listen to the music
anyway.

INdeed, they don't know what they're missing because they've
never really experienced it. The best recordings, or the
most tastefully done sound reinforcement, it matters not,
both take something away from the experience imho. This is
something that we're rapidly losing, and even its memory is
something that is restricted to the over fifty year olds
among us. Before anybody wishes to quibble with that, there
may be younger folks who've had these experiences, but
they're rare these days.

I had a related discussion at work with a bunch of fellow music majors,
regarding piano samples. The younger guy who swore his samples were as good
as any piano, turns out had never played a good piano. The ones who had a
chance to play a serious concert grand at some point, all agreed that
nothing reproduces the experience. And you don't have to be a terribly good
player to experience that, sitting behind an $80K Steinway in a good hall.

That same piano under the hands of an equally good player would give you
goosebumps!

Sean

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
(hank alrich) wrote:

Arkansan Raider wrote:

Sean Conolly wrote:

Eventually people are going to rediscover how good uncompressed music can
sound, and how enjoyable it can be on it's own without some kind of video.
They may even start to rediscover how good LIVE music can be, surpassing
even the best recordings.

We can only hope.

Sean



Preach it, brother.

This will not happen until the quality of live sound reinforcement gets
a friggin' clue. I've been spending enough time in Austin to hear
direcdtly that the situation is stupidly dire.

It does, however, offer opportunity for a handful of venues.

Indeed. Most live sound reinforcement is terrible. The only "arena
show" that I've experienced that it was excellent was Simon and
Garfunkel, Oakland (CA) arena, 2003.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Sean Conolly]

"Mike Brown" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

Granted we are talking about different generations, but any nation
that can be sold on 8 track is likely to jump at anything.

Best wishes,

Dr. Jim Lowther


8 track was an improvement over what people had for car stereo
before it - nothing.

Oh yes - I remember seeing a few older cars that had fold-out turntables
where the glovebox should be. In the 60's an 8-track player meant you really
could listen to a recording while driving, and the sound quality was better
than AM radio.

But then the sound in a car (unless you are going to park and listen)
isn't that important, I've never had a car in which it was worth while
playing anything that you really wanted to hear.

Well, in high school we all did just that. Being too young to go to bars, we
would bring our bevy's out to the nearest patch of woods or pasture where we
could listen and party without legal entaglements. Having a good sounding
car system and interesting material made your car the desired place to hang
out.

The sad thing is that for a lot of younger folks, the best stereo they ever
heard was in a car...

Sean

[Arkansan Raider]

hank alrich wrote:

I'm too old for any label to take an interest in any act that would
include me. Brutality shows up in many guises, mortality being one of
them. The present situation offers me a lot of opportunity, and I'm
working to take advantage of that. At the same time, a lot of very good
musicians are not being justly compensated _for music that is being
consumed but for which no payment is being received or offered_.


Hank, thanks for your response--you pretty much always have something
good to say. I want to ruminate over the rest of your message for a
while before saying something--except that this paragraph really ****es
me off.

1. Damn a friggin' label that would not take interest in you because of
your age. I understand the brutality of mortality--most of the music I
dig seems to want to be a young man's game, but I remember diggin' the
"geezer" music when I was a kid. In the 1980s, I'd have killed to go to
a big band concert or to hear Les Paul or Chet Atkins. The guys in Led
Zeppelin weren't exactly youngsters at that point, either--and I was
buyin' the fool outa' their albums.

2. Damn labels in general. I'm a big fan of self-publishing. I see the
need for distribution, but that's as far as I'm gonna' go.

3. I bought your CD a li'l while back. It's damn good, and I get a lot
of enjoyment out of it. I know a lot of people who would enjoy it, too.
I'd just about kill to get to one of your concerts, dude. One thing I'm
noticing is that a lot of the younger set are wanting more of an
experience than the standard "star on stage" thing. They want
"authenticity" and "depth of character" in front of them playing. IOW, a
real person, not a marketing image. You, Hank, are a real person--and a
character, BTW. ;^)

Labels don't *get* authenticity or character. They just want hits. Damn
that.

4. You're right: a LOT of very good musicians are not being justly
compensated--partly due to how the labels have treated them, partly
because our society has been viewing music as a throw-away background
commodity. I think part of the responsibility for that should be placed
at the feet of the big labels and their marketing practices. If you push
crap at people and say it's the next big thing, people are going to quit
listening. Damn that, too.


---Jeff

[hank alrich]

Sean Conolly wrote:

"Les Cargill" wrote in message
...
Ain't just Austin, either. Look - *knowing what you are doing
just puts you in with the others like you*. What is preferred is
the "Indie cred" or closeness to the "Scene", not ability**. Go
to Cocoa beach and see what passes for live entertainment. If
you can reproduce the Corona Beer Commercial experience* for
people, you win.

Oh dear, that brings back memories of one of my early bands playing Cocoa
Beach, MoodSwing (I called it PMS in music :-)

We were a bunch of young guys who were reasonable players trying to
understand jazz, but who had a lot more passion than skill. We weren't good
enough to play the few jazz clubs so we just worked the strip with whatever
we had and called it jazz-ish. Lots of stuff from the Real Book with a few
classic older pop tunes thrown in. We stayed busy though, had a house gig at
the Pier House for many months, and we even got a little local press.

There was really no good reason why we stayed booked so much in that area,
other than we with a lot of energy to compensate for the lack of ability.
Ira Sullivan bravely did a show with us once, and about halfway through one
of his fans shouted out "why don't you play something mellow?". Ira's
response was "these guys don't DO mellow!".

Sorry for the sidetrack, but I just had to share,
Sean

Thanks for sharing, Sean!

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Sean Conolly wrote:

"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
They may even start to rediscover how good LIVE music can be, surpassing
even the best recordings.

Perhaps for a good orchestra in a good concert hall. And although live
modern music is often a worthwhile experience in it's own right, it is
rarely better sound wise than when it has been well recorded in a studio
and played back on a good HiFi syestem.

I'm surprised at how many people who read my comment are only thinking of
reinforced music, or just music in a large hall.

Go hear a group of really good players in an intimate setting, like where
you're sitting 15 feet from the performers, and listen to the sound of a
good upright bas or piano, acoustic guitar or sax. There's a visceral aspect
that just isn't captured by recording, which is why the recordings are never
as satisfying as being there - if you actually were there.

My point is that the vast majority of people today have NEVER heard music
like this. The best stuff they've heard live is crap bands playing through
crap PA's, and the only good stuff they've heard was compressed through
earbuds. Of course most people don't know how to really shut up their
thoughts, focus and listen to the music anyway.

Sean

You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

Some of the house concert settings we've enjoyed have offered terrific
acoustics, no sound system, and us nearly in the audient's laps.
Delivery gets no more direct than that, and the thrill is palpable.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Arkansan Raider wrote:

Sean Conolly wrote:

Of course most people don't know how to really shut up their
thoughts, focus and listen to the music anyway.


Preach.

Of course, our entire culture is based on
quicklyIgottahaveitnowgimmewhatIwantinamicrowavewi thcaffeine!

We've grown unaccustomed to quiet, to being still and listening to one
another--let alone listening to the music.

One of the things that strikes me most deliciously when I arrive back
home, next to the middle of nowhere, is the relative quiet. Much of
America never gets quiet, and never gets dark.

Fer cryin' out loud folks, drop the danged cellphone texting for a
minute or two and LISTEN!

Discussing this topic alone could fill a few bookshelves.

The Alamo Drafthouse theaters in Austin are succeeding for various
reasons (beer and food sourceable ahead of the flick), including by
making clear they'll throw your ass out if you start messing with your
cellphone, and no refund will be given. They have heads-up signage, and
run a header loaded with unmistakable language. They show no mercy
whatsoever, and those who came to watch a movie really appreciate it.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

wrote:

I could care less about NASCAR: vintage road racing is my thing. You
have a real variety of engines, from 12 cylinder Ferraris to Alfa
Romeo fours to Jag sixes to two cycle Saabs or DKW Formula Juniors,
and very occasionally a jackhammer Offy or even a PT6 Pratt and
Whitney.

Sounds like the Washington Folk Festival to me. Traditional Indian
bands one hour, blues musicians the next, then a mento band afterward.


There's just nothing like Heavy Mental music.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:45:52 -0800, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
(hank alrich) wrote:

Arkansan Raider wrote:

Sean Conolly wrote:

Eventually people are going to rediscover how good uncompressed music can
sound, and how enjoyable it can be on it's own without some kind of video.
They may even start to rediscover how good LIVE music can be, surpassing
even the best recordings.

We can only hope.

Sean



Preach it, brother.

This will not happen until the quality of live sound reinforcement gets
a friggin' clue. I've been spending enough time in Austin to hear
direcdtly that the situation is stupidly dire.

It does, however, offer opportunity for a handful of venues.

Indeed. Most live sound reinforcement is terrible. The only "arena
show" that I've experienced that it was excellent was Simon and
Garfunkel, Oakland (CA) arena, 2003.

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:25:21 -0800, (hank alrich)
wrote:

We've grown unaccustomed to quiet, to being still and listening to one
another--let alone listening to the music.

One of the things that strikes me most deliciously when I arrive back
home, next to the middle of nowhere, is the relative quiet. Much of
America never gets quiet, and never gets dark.

You may not believe this but you don't have to live in the middle of
nowhere. I live in walking distance of the centre of London, yet if I
keep quiet, my SPL meter fails to register. I can hear the blood
pounding through my ears. It is just a question of having enough
distance between you and the nearest cars - and of course not living
anywhere near the London Underground lines.

d

[Arkansan Raider]

Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

---Jeff

[Mike Rivers]

On 1/7/2012 3:25 PM, hank alrich wrote:

You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

Some of the house concert settings we've enjoyed have offered terrific
acoustics, no sound system, and us nearly in the audient's laps.
Delivery gets no more direct than that, and the thrill is palpable.

Yup. And if you could get $50 a seat there, you'd be able to
make a civilized living without being another hardest
working man in show business. "Natural" music just doesn't
rake in the cash like J-Zee or J-Lo.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

---Jeff

I appreciate the tip and I'll check it out! But what I was referring to
was the sound in the building, as opposed to a recording of the concert,
which I presume has at least some direct feed.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:00 -0800, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

---Jeff

I appreciate the tip and I'll check it out! But what I was referring to
was the sound in the building, as opposed to a recording of the concert,
which I presume has at least some direct feed.

A friend of mine was there (jealous, me?) and he told me it was the
best sounding gig he had ever been to.

d

[Arkansan Raider]

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:00 -0800, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d
Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

---Jeff
I appreciate the tip and I'll check it out! But what I was referring to
was the sound in the building, as opposed to a recording of the concert,
which I presume has at least some direct feed.

A friend of mine was there (jealous, me?) and he told me it was the
best sounding gig he had ever been to.

d

Jealous, me, much.

---Jeff

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Les wrote in message
...
Ain't just Austin, either. Look - *knowing what you are doing
just puts you in with the others like you*. What is preferred is
the "Indie cred" or closeness to the "Scene", not ability**. Go
to Cocoa beach and see what passes for live entertainment. If
you can reproduce the Corona Beer Commercial experience* for
people, you win.

Oh dear, that brings back memories of one of my early bands playing Cocoa
Beach, MoodSwing (I called it PMS in music :-)

We were a bunch of young guys who were reasonable players trying to
understand jazz, but who had a lot more passion than skill. We weren't good
enough to play the few jazz clubs so we just worked the strip with whatever
we had and called it jazz-ish. Lots of stuff from the Real Book with a few
classic older pop tunes thrown in. We stayed busy though, had a house gig at
the Pier House for many months, and we even got a little local press.

There was really no good reason why we stayed booked so much in that area,
other than we with a lot of energy to compensate for the lack of ability.
Ira Sullivan bravely did a show with us once, and about halfway through one
of his fans shouted out "why don't you play something mellow?". Ira's
response was "these guys don't DO mellow!".

Sorry for the sidetrack, but I just had to share,
Sean




Nice. There's hardly any jazz there now, just people in Hawaiian shirts
playing Jimmy Buffet.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/7/2012 3:25 PM, hank alrich wrote:

You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

Some of the house concert settings we've enjoyed have offered terrific
acoustics, no sound system, and us nearly in the audient's laps.
Delivery gets no more direct than that, and the thrill is palpable.

Yup. And if you could get $50 a seat there, you'd be able to
make a civilized living without being another hardest
working man in show business. "Natural" music just doesn't
rake in the cash like J-Zee or J-Lo.

I ain't after their gig. g

When there's only one or two in the band, fifty twenty-dollar seats
works okay.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Mike Brown]

In article ,
"Sean Conolly" wrote:

"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
They may even start to rediscover how good LIVE music can be, surpassing
even the best recordings.

Perhaps for a good orchestra in a good concert hall. And although live
modern music is often a worthwhile experience in it's own right, it is
rarely better sound wise than when it has been well recorded in a studio
and played back on a good HiFi syestem.

I'm surprised at how many people who read my comment are only thinking of
reinforced music, or just music in a large hall.

Go hear a group of really good players in an intimate setting, like where
you're sitting 15 feet from the performers, and listen to the sound of a
good upright bas or piano, acoustic guitar or sax. There's a visceral aspect
that just isn't captured by recording, which is why the recordings are never
as satisfying as being there - if you actually were there.

My point is that the vast majority of people today have NEVER heard music
like this. The best stuff they've heard live is crap bands playing through
crap PA's, and the only good stuff they've heard was compressed through
earbuds. Of course most people don't know how to really shut up their
thoughts, focus and listen to the music anyway.

Sean

Most of the live music that I heard when I was young was all acoustic,
the only mic was used by the singer, and sometimes not even him (her).

Of course the venues were all small jazz clubs or a room at the back of
a pub somewhere.

Happy days.

MJRB

[Mike Brown]

In article ,
"Sean Conolly" wrote:

wrote in message
...

On 2012-01-07 said:

I'm surprised at how many people who read my comment are only
thinking of reinforced music, or just music in a large hall.
Go hear a group of really good players in an intimate setting, like
where you're sitting 15 feet from the performers, and listen to the
sound of a good upright bas or piano, acoustic guitar or sax.
There's a visceral aspect that just isn't captured by recording,
which is why the recordings are never as satisfying as being there
- if you actually were there.

Indeed, and even with the best hands on the controls there's
something that gets lost when it gets reinforced imho. Mr.
Dorsey and i have both presented this argument in
rec.audio.pro over the years. MOst folks don't know how to
listen, or have never listened to musical instruments sans
amplifiers and speakers.

My point is that the vast majority of people today have NEVER heard
music like this. The best stuff they've heard live is crap bands
playing through crap PA's, and the only good stuff they've heard
was compressed through earbuds. Of course most people don't know
how to really shut up their thoughts, focus and listen to the music
anyway.

INdeed, they don't know what they're missing because they've
never really experienced it. The best recordings, or the
most tastefully done sound reinforcement, it matters not,
both take something away from the experience imho. This is
something that we're rapidly losing, and even its memory is
something that is restricted to the over fifty year olds
among us. Before anybody wishes to quibble with that, there
may be younger folks who've had these experiences, but
they're rare these days.

I had a related discussion at work with a bunch of fellow music majors,
regarding piano samples. The younger guy who swore his samples were as good
as any piano, turns out had never played a good piano. The ones who had a
chance to play a serious concert grand at some point, all agreed that
nothing reproduces the experience. And you don't have to be a terribly good
player to experience that, sitting behind an $80K Steinway in a good hall.

That same piano under the hands of an equally good player would give you
goosebumps!

Sean

With a real piano, even an average instrument, but particularly a
quality one the player doesn't just hear it he feels it.

Same applies to a guitar of course.

MJRB

[[email protected]]

On 2012-01-07 (hankalrich) said:
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
Arkansan Raider wrote:
wrote:
These are all folks with day jobs who play their music as a
hobby.
snip
You know, I'm not a cheerleader for this, and I'm unfortunately
having to do it as a side job. I do it because I have fun doing
it, yes. But I also do it because I have to do it. Like Keef
Richards said: "To a musician, making music is like breathing."
snip
To be clear, I do not disparage amateur or part-time musicians.
I believe music has been a near-essential part of humanity
throughout our evolution and that at times it may well have
provided critical spiritual sustenance when other essentials were
in short supply.

Indeed. Often the difference these days is the support
systems it takes to make music, whether for a hobby or for a
profession. Even often the hobbyist needs to at least
recoup some of his expenses to sustain his ability to keep
on keepin' on.

I have been a part-timer during several periods of my life, from
time spent running a concert hall to that spent offering sound
reinforcement, recording and production services in an area where
the concept of a full-time professional performing musician would
be laughable unless one wanted to spend one's life away from one's
family.

Indeed, and at those times you still depended on the
musicians who used your services at least providing you some
remuneration for your services.

I think Austin TX and probably other markets, too, are oversaturated
with erstwhile musicians. Too many of us want to be paid for being
on stage, to the point that today there is less pay for that in
Austin than there was when I was managing a concert hall there in
the late 1970's. A steady influx of dreamers continues to arrive,
many of whom within the week of their arrival begin to tout
themselves to the world at large as "Austin" bands or musicians. On
the one hand there is an astounding surfeit or superbly qualified
pros, as on the other hand there is the same surfeit of mediocre
writers and pickers.

INdeed, and depending on who you ask on what day whether
the cream would tell you the glass is half empty or half
full in being able to promote one's talents and be heard.

This will shake out over time. I agree with DeeAa that it will be
brutal, and I suggest the brutality will extend beyond musicians. I
think that over the same period Austin's luster will fade, because
"development" has driven the cost of residence up to the point that
already a few other, smaller cities, not in Texas, are becoming
attractive to creative people who don't wish to work in advertising
or marketing, or interior design, i.e., those we think of as
"artists".

Indeed, and that's the one beauty of all the technology, one
can often stay away from those markets.

Austin touts itself as the live music capitol of the world. Part of
that is my own damned fault, for succeeding at AWHQ until the
landlord sold the property out form under us. Redd Volkaert
presently calls it "The Free Music Capitol of the World". The
marvelous series at the airport is funded entirely through the
efforts of Nancy Coplin, who raises roughly seventy grand a year to
pull it off. So I wind up playing at Ray Benson's Roadhouse for a
captive audience from a stage adorned with subliminal advertising
for Pepsi, instead of from a stage proclaiming live music
capitolization.

I can relate to that g. Us older guys have truly seen the
glory days,they've come and gone my friend g.

Regards,




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider

[[email protected]]

JEff writes:
1. Damn a friggin' label that would not take interest in you
because of your age. I understand the brutality of mortality--most
of the music I dig seems to want to be a young man's game, but I
remember diggin' the "geezer" music when I was a kid. In the 1980s,
I'd have killed to go to a big band concert or to hear Les Paul or
Chet Atkins. The guys in Led Zeppelin weren't exactly youngsters at
that point, either--and I was buyin' the fool outa' their albums.
I"m about twenty years ahead of you on that one, and even
then it was the old guys who'd honed their skills that I
really wanted to see. I understood intuitively even as a
teenager that these old guys had something to say, and
something to teach somebody like me. The young guys
conveyed that excitement, what they were doing was often
fresh and interesting to me, but the old guys, well they
showed me where it came from g.

snip
One thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the younger set are wanting
more of an experience than the standard "star on stage" thing. They
want "authenticity" and "depth of character" in front of them
playing. IOW, a real person, not a marketing image. You, Hank, are
a real person--and a character, BTW. ;^)
Labels don't *get* authenticity or character. They just want hits.
Damn that.

OF course, they're hard to commoditize, harder to find. To
get those things one often has to find the artist who has
paid some dues, been there a little bit. AS Harry Chapin
was told, you can't write about the things you never did or
places you've never seen with any credibility. Combine
songs written from the depths of experience with actual
chops, and you've got a winner. That's not something the
record companies can often find though , because the next
big thing is easier to get. mostly because that act
promoted as the next big thing is excited enough just to be
in the spotlight. When their moment is through and they've
epitomized Andy Warhol's famous for fifteen minutes they'll
go back to school or be driving a cab.

Getting that old guy with the chops and the authenticity
means offering him plenty of inducement to sign up. OFten
he has a family, a home, a stable life which affords him
some opportunities to make his msuic and be heard. Signing
him up is asking him to cast a lot of that aside.

4. You're right: a LOT of very good musicians are not being justly
compensated--partly due to how the labels have treated them, partly
because our society has been viewing music as a throw-away
background commodity. I think part of the responsibility for that
should be placed at the feet of the big labels and their marketing
practices. If you push crap at people and say it's the next big
thing, people are going to quit listening. Damn that, too.
INdeed, and they push the crap because it's easier than
doing actual artist development as was done back when.
ARtist development forces one to take the long view, and our
whole business climate is not geared toward the long view,
just the next quarterly statement.




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider

[Arkansan Raider]

hank alrich wrote:
Sean Conolly wrote:

Go hear a group of really good players in an intimate setting, like where
you're sitting 15 feet from the performers, and listen to the sound of a
good upright bas or piano, acoustic guitar or sax. There's a visceral aspect
that just isn't captured by recording, which is why the recordings are never
as satisfying as being there - if you actually were there.

My point is that the vast majority of people today have NEVER heard music
like this. The best stuff they've heard live is crap bands playing through
crap PA's, and the only good stuff they've heard was compressed through
earbuds. Of course most people don't know how to really shut up their
thoughts, focus and listen to the music anyway.

Sean

You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

Some of the house concert settings we've enjoyed have offered terrific
acoustics, no sound system, and us nearly in the audient's laps.
Delivery gets no more direct than that, and the thrill is palpable.



When I was in college the first time, I was in an a cappella chorus. No
sound reinforcement. Nothing but the human voice. Depending on which
year we're talking about, there were anywhere from 25 to 60 young
college students singing together. The sound from the risers was
completely different from the sound in the conductor's position (I was
chorus VP and student conductor for a while). Both of those positions
were, of course, completely different from being in the audience.

But even better than that was when the bus broke down (small Christian
university, not much money, it happened a lot) and we practiced on the
bus to while away the time. Simply magic.

The church I worship with is in the a cappella tradition--no band, no
instruments whatsoever other than the human voice. My particular
congregation seats anywhere from 900-1,200 at any one time, depending on
whether school's in session or not. Shame on me for getting jaded by
hearing great singing every Sunday (about 50%-60% have been in choruses
before), but every now and then, I hear that magic again. Goose bumps
for real.

What I dig about some of the flash mob phenomena is that you don't
expect to hear great singing--but when it happens, it's awe-inspiring
and very moving. I remember going to a workshop in Tulsa, OK a few years
back when the crowds were pretty big. A bunch of us who didn't know each
other from Adam all went to eat at a huge restaurant nearby. Probably
200-300 of us in line started singing hymns together. Unexpected goose
bumps!

I completely agree with the both of yuz. There's nothing like live music.

BTW, I just happened across this video on YouTube. It's Indiana Wesleyan
University Chorale in an impromptu a cappella performance for a
stewardess aboard a jet waiting on some maintenance. It kind of captures
the feeling and atmosphere from my chorus days on the broken down bus.
If you're offended by hymns, don't click on it--but it's a pretty cool
performance. The poor stewardess didn't know what hit her. ;^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ynyt...&feature=share

---Jeff

[hank alrich]

Arkansan Raider wrote:

I completely agree with the both of yuz. There's nothing like live music.

BTW, I just happened across this video on YouTube. It's Indiana Wesleyan
University Chorale in an impromptu a cappella performance for a
stewardess aboard a jet waiting on some maintenance. It kind of captures
the feeling and atmosphere from my chorus days on the broken down bus.
If you're offended by hymns, don't click on it--but it's a pretty cool
performance. The poor stewardess didn't know what hit her. ;^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ynyt...&feature=share

Jeff, thank you! If you will pardon the expression, that is just so
damned cool! g

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Arkansan Raider]

hank alrich wrote:
Arkansan Raider wrote:

I completely agree with the both of yuz. There's nothing like live music.

BTW, I just happened across this video on YouTube. It's Indiana Wesleyan
University Chorale in an impromptu a cappella performance for a
stewardess aboard a jet waiting on some maintenance. It kind of captures
the feeling and atmosphere from my chorus days on the broken down bus.
If you're offended by hymns, don't click on it--but it's a pretty cool
performance. The poor stewardess didn't know what hit her. ;^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ynyt...&feature=share

Jeff, thank you! If you will pardon the expression, that is just so
damned cool! g



And you're soooooo wrong fer that--but you got me gigglin' anyway.

You're quite welcome, Hank.

---Jeff

[Trevor]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an unamplified
acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm willing to bet you
can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME that many don't CARE
about music quality, but that's another statement entirely.

Trevor.

[Sean Conolly]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

One of the things that strikes me most deliciously when I arrive back
home, next to the middle of nowhere, is the relative quiet. Much of
America never gets quiet, and never gets dark.


35+ plus years of playing drums, and playing with firearms, means that I'm
never really alone (just me and my tinitus).

On the other hand I can still hear pretty well in a truly quiet environment.
And equally strange, my mixes always tend to be too light on the treble,
like the highs that I do hear just don't sound right to me.

Sean

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:32:50 -0600, Arkansan Raider
wrote:

BTW, I just happened across this video on YouTube. It's Indiana Wesleyan
University Chorale in an impromptu a cappella performance for a
stewardess aboard a jet waiting on some maintenance. It kind of captures
the feeling and atmosphere from my chorus days on the broken down bus.
If you're offended by hymns, don't click on it--but it's a pretty cool
performance. The poor stewardess didn't know what hit her. ;^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ynyt...&feature=share

Very good, but the ladies need to be taken aside and made to get their
vibrato tamed somewhat.OK, more than somewhat.

d

[Mike Brown]

In article ,
"Sean Conolly" wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

One of the things that strikes me most deliciously when I arrive back
home, next to the middle of nowhere, is the relative quiet. Much of
America never gets quiet, and never gets dark.


35+ plus years of playing drums, and playing with firearms, means that I'm
never really alone (just me and my tinitus).

On the other hand I can still hear pretty well in a truly quiet environment.
And equally strange, my mixes always tend to be too light on the treble,
like the highs that I do hear just don't sound right to me.

Sean

I have that problem and I've never played drums or owned a gun.

A couple of years ago the high notes on my guitars started sounding
thin, as if I'm not hearing all of the overtones. I've (sort of)
adjusted to it, but it has taken a little of the pleasure from hearing
my guitars when I know that they sound better than they do to me (if you
see what I mean).

I gave up doing sound at about the same time as I lost confidence in
getting it right. I reckon there are enough incompetent sound men out
there with out me adding to the number.

MJRB

[Mike Rivers]

On 1/7/2012 6:08 PM, hank alrich wrote:

When there's only one or two in the band, fifty twenty-dollar seats
works okay.

I realize that "house concert" means a couple of different
things. Some are what I'm familiar with and occasionally
host, pretty much like a party with 20-35 people usually out
of a pool of about the same 40 or 50, $10 or $15 at the door.

Then there are the "named" house concerts that didn't spring
up from a group of people who liked music, but rather an
individual who decided to be a concert promoter on a small
scale. These are usually larger, sometimes have a sound
system, cost more, and surely make more for the artists who
play them.

Both are good, neither is the same as playing clubs, folk
music society concerts, or colleges. But if you can't find
enough work to do it full time (and are willing) it's hard
to make a living playing small concerts.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/7/2012 6:08 PM, hank alrich wrote:

When there's only one or two in the band, fifty twenty-dollar seats
works okay.

I realize that "house concert" means a couple of different
things. Some are what I'm familiar with and occasionally
host, pretty much like a party with 20-35 people usually out
of a pool of about the same 40 or 50, $10 or $15 at the door.

Yep, and those are very helpful, the living room scene. It's a very
personal experience all around, it's fairly easy, except for all the
work _you_ do, and it pays better than most small venue gigs until one
has a profile high enough to draw a larger crowd.

Then there are the "named" house concerts that didn't spring
up from a group of people who liked music, but rather an
individual who decided to be a concert promoter on a small
scale. These are usually larger, sometimes have a sound
system, cost more, and surely make more for the artists who
play them.

Some of those are pretty amazing. I've attended a "house concert" in
what is a 150-seat backyard amphitheater chopped out of limestone.
Friends of mine have played a "house concert" where the band made $3500.

Both are good, neither is the same as playing clubs, folk
music society concerts, or colleges. But if you can't find
enough work to do it full time (and are willing) it's hard
to make a living playing small concerts.

They can help raise awareness of one's offering, and the neat thing
about them is that it only takes one person with a solid following of
folks who have learned that said person finds good music. When the call
goes out it often doesn't matter that the folks getting the message may
not have heard of you before. Enough of them will show up on faith to
get the ball rolling. That's where we are right now. A few very well
established and highly regarded house concert presenters have booked us
and that has helped our credibility considerably. AFAICT we have been
the least well-known act ever to play for them, and we did well enough
that they'll have us back, and we'll play to a larger house, 'cause we
done good.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Trevor wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an unamplified
acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm willing to bet you
can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME that many don't CARE
about music quality, but that's another statement entirely.

Trevor.

Sorry Trevor, I am speaking from firsthand experience, based of direct
communication from people who are not youngsters at all, and who have
told me personally that only recently have they heard non-classical
acoustic string music sans amplification.

Those of us who came up around musicians have a different experience.
Turns out that many folks have not had that experiecne. Strokes, folks,
etc.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[polymod]

"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

Thirded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAv2FoYji8

Poly

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:25:25 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

Thirded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAv2FoYji8

Poly


And for those who think they are pretty good at slide guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCGd...eature=related

A touch humbling.

d

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 1/8/2012 11:13 AM, hank alrich wrote:
wrote:

"hank wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an unamplified
acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm willing to bet you
can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME that many don't CARE
about music quality, but that's another statement entirely.

Trevor.

Sorry Trevor, I am speaking from firsthand experience, based of direct
communication from people who are not youngsters at all, and who have
told me personally that only recently have they heard non-classical
acoustic string music sans amplification.

Those of us who came up around musicians have a different experience.
Turns out that many folks have not had that experiecne. Strokes, folks,
etc.

May I point out that to hear something is quite passive and
thus Trevor may have a point. Now if you were to say many
folks have never listened to an acoustic (whatever) then I believe
Hank is probably on good, solid ground.
Now you may go off and quibble about the meaning of "listen"
but that's not really the point of the discussion.

Later...
Ron Capik
--

[[email protected]]

Ron writes:
May I point out that to hear something is quite passive and
thus Trevor may have a point. Now if you were to say many
folks have never listened to an acoustic (whatever) then I believe
Hank is probably on good, solid ground.

Good point, and worth considering. YOu may have "heard" it,
but not in a context where you could reallly "listen" to it.
I.e. guitarist playing on the street with guitar case open
for tips, a guy playing an acoustic guitar at a party where
he's competing with a lot of other things for attention,
etc.

Hank and I are still making the same point essentially
however, substitute "listened to" for "heard" in those posts
g.



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider

[Scott Dorsey]

Jenn wrote:
Arkansan Raider wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

It used to be that sort of thing was _expected_ before a band went out to
make a live recording.

I appreciate the tip and I'll check it out! But what I was referring to
was the sound in the building, as opposed to a recording of the concert,
which I presume has at least some direct feed.

In order to make a great-sounding concert recording, you have to have great
sound in the hall. If the sound in the hall is great, recording the concert
is easy and most of your mix can be based on ambient mikes. If the sound
in the hall is less than great, it very quickly turns into a very different
thing.

Having great sound in the hall means having a great-sounding PA with a great
operator (assuming there is PA), but it also means having great hall acoustics
in the first place.

When you hire someone to make a concert recording, you don't think about
them coming out with diffusers and gobos and panels and changing out the
stage mikes and monitor cabinets, but if they're good they'll start at the
beginning of the chain and work all the way to the end.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Brown]

In article ,
(Don Pearce) wrote:

And for those who think they are pretty good at slide guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCGd...eature=related

A touch humbling.

d

Very tasty, and a lovely guitar sound.

Nice bass player too.

MJRB

[Mike Brown]

In article ,
Ron Capik wrote:

On 1/8/2012 11:13 AM, hank alrich wrote:
wrote:

"hank wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an unamplified
acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm willing to bet
you
can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME that many don't CARE
about music quality, but that's another statement entirely.

Trevor.

Sorry Trevor, I am speaking from firsthand experience, based of direct
communication from people who are not youngsters at all, and who have
told me personally that only recently have they heard non-classical
acoustic string music sans amplification.

Those of us who came up around musicians have a different experience.
Turns out that many folks have not had that experiecne. Strokes, folks,
etc.

May I point out that to hear something is quite passive and
thus Trevor may have a point. Now if you were to say many
folks have never listened to an acoustic (whatever) then I believe
Hank is probably on good, solid ground.
Now you may go off and quibble about the meaning of "listen"
but that's not really the point of the discussion.

Later...
Ron Capik
--

If none of your family or close friends are musicians, and you have
never been to a concert at an intimate venue, it is quite possible that
the only acoustic music (unamplified) you've heard is either a brass
band or bagpipes.

#8^)

MJRB

[Trevor]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an unamplified
acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm willing to bet
you
can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME that many don't CARE
about music quality, but that's another statement entirely.

Sorry Trevor, I am speaking from firsthand experience, based of direct
communication from people who are not youngsters at all, and who have
told me personally that only recently have they heard non-classical
acoustic string music sans amplification.

Perhaps they said that simply because they can't *remember* hearing a piano
at school for a start, or someone with a guitar at a party or in the street,
at least once. And even *IF* there are some who really never have, calling
that "many" without any real evidence, is drawing a very long bow IMO. Not
that it matters since if they can't remember hearing one, they certainly
can't remember what it sounded like.


Those of us who came up around musicians have a different experience.
Turns out that many folks have not had that experiecne. Strokes, folks,
etc.

Those of us into music haven't simply forgotten. The rest don't care anyway.

Trevor.