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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Mike Brown" wrote in message
...
If none of your family or close friends are musicians, and you have
never been to a concert at an intimate venue, it is quite possible that
the only acoustic music (unamplified) you've heard is either a brass
band or bagpipes.


I'd put my money on more people having heard an acoustic guitar or real
piano than bagpipes, and possibly a brass band as well.
(although brass bands are far more common in the USA than Australia I
believe, I somehow doubt bagpipes are though)
Whether they've actually listened with any intent to any of them is another
matter.

Trevor.


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Ron Capik wrote:

On 1/8/2012 11:13 AM, hank alrich wrote:
wrote:

"hank wrote in message
...
You are right on it, Sean. Bango! For example, many folks have never
heard an "acoustic" guitar except through amplification.

And the folks who say that have no idea what the actual figures are of
course. I for one don't know *anybody* who has never heard an
unamplified acoustic guitar or piano at least once in their life! I'm
willing to bet you can't actually find anyone either. It *is* true IME
that many don't CARE about music quality, but that's another statement
entirely.

Trevor.


Sorry Trevor, I am speaking from firsthand experience, based of direct
communication from people who are not youngsters at all, and who have
told me personally that only recently have they heard non-classical
acoustic string music sans amplification.

Those of us who came up around musicians have a different experience.
Turns out that many folks have not had that experiecne. Strokes, folks,
etc.

May I point out that to hear something is quite passive and
thus Trevor may have a point. Now if you were to say many
folks have never listened to an acoustic (whatever) then I believe
Hank is probably on good, solid ground.
Now you may go off and quibble about the meaning of "listen"
but that's not really the point of the discussion.


I should clarify that I meant that many people have never heard an
acoustic guitar _acoustically_, with only air for a transducer, versus
with pickup, or via a mic, or from a music playback system, car radio,
etc. This actually never occurred to me until recently when I began to
meet such folks, through friends, and then other friends of those folks,
all of whom are great fans of music, but who only recently made friends
with musicians, and now have had the experience of hearing the music
played casually, socially, in living rooms, for fun.

Previously I took for granted that everyone had heard plenty of real,
live acoustic music, because I've lived it among friends and associates
who also live it. I remember crawling around the floor, too young to
walk, hearing my dad play piano.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Previously I took for granted that everyone had heard plenty of real,
live acoustic music, because I've lived it among friends and associates
who also live it. I remember crawling around the floor, too young to
walk, hearing my dad play piano.


Right you remember it, those with no interest in music don't. Of course in
their case it wouldn't be "plenty" since they never actually seek it out.
But since *they* don't care, why do you care what they may or may not have
heard, or what they do or don't percieve as "good music sound quality" (if
they ever give it a thought)
Fortunately that's NOT something I have to worry about.

Trevor.


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Trevor wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Previously I took for granted that everyone had heard plenty of real,
live acoustic music, because I've lived it among friends and associates
who also live it. I remember crawling around the floor, too young to
walk, hearing my dad play piano.


Right you remember it, those with no interest in music don't. Of course in
their case it wouldn't be "plenty" since they never actually seek it out.
But since *they* don't care, why do you care what they may or may not have
heard, or what they do or don't percieve as "good music sound quality" (if
they ever give it a thought)
Fortunately that's NOT something I have to worry about.


I find that peopole are attracted to good sound when they get a chance
to hear it, so I care about trying to deliver good sound. I don't worry
about it. g

2011 was a fun year for hearing from sound operators about how easy it
was to mix us, how little they had to do to allow it to sound good.

For eighteen years I played string bass with an acoustic swing quintet.
I mixed us from the stage, over a pair of Meyer UPA's, with Crest amps,
a Soundcraft 200B, Bag End floor cabs, good mics. People routinely came
up after the shows to tell us how great we sounded. Musically I was the
weak link, but I did okay. The others were heavy duty in their roles. We
just said, "Thank you; glad you enjoyed it".

Do you have arguments with youself when you wake up in the morning?

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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In article ,
(hank alrich) wrote:

Do you have arguments with youself when you wake up in the morning?

--
shut up and play your guitar *
http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri


I sometimes argue with myself all night.

MJRB


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"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I find that peopole are attracted to good sound when they get a chance
to hear it, so I care about trying to deliver good sound.


I find that when I deliver good sound to those who actually care about it,
those that don't are happy. But as we have said all along, those who are not
interested in music are not at concerts anyway, so obviously I do not need
to care about them.


Do you have arguments with youself when you wake up in the morning?


Nope, I guess you do or you wouldn't feel the need to ask others.

Trevor.


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"Trevor" wrote in :


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Previously I took for granted that everyone had heard plenty of real,
live acoustic music, because I've lived it among friends and
associates who also live it. I remember crawling around the floor,
too young to walk, hearing my dad play piano.


Right you remember it, those with no interest in music don't. Of
course in their case it wouldn't be "plenty" since they never actually
seek it out. But since *they* don't care, why do you care what they
may or may not have heard, or what they do or don't percieve as "good
music sound quality" (if they ever give it a thought)
Fortunately that's NOT something I have to worry about.

Trevor.


sheesh, you seem to be worrying about it quite a bit in this thread. Why
do you care that others care? I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't matter if
they're players or not. People who haven't experienced quality sound
recognize the difference when they hear it and will contiue to seek it
out.

Steve Hawkins
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:25:25 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.


Thirded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAv2FoYji8

Poly


And for those who think they are pretty good at slide guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCGd...eature=related

A touch humbling.



Hmmm...that's the same slide I use.
Mine must be broke

Poly


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Steve Hawkins wrote:

"Trevor" wrote in :


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Previously I took for granted that everyone had heard plenty of real,
live acoustic music, because I've lived it among friends and
associates who also live it. I remember crawling around the floor,
too young to walk, hearing my dad play piano.


Right you remember it, those with no interest in music don't. Of
course in their case it wouldn't be "plenty" since they never actually
seek it out. But since *they* don't care, why do you care what they
may or may not have heard, or what they do or don't percieve as "good
music sound quality" (if they ever give it a thought)
Fortunately that's NOT something I have to worry about.

Trevor.


sheesh, you seem to be worrying about it quite a bit in this thread. Why
do you care that others care? I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't matter if
they're players or not. People who haven't experienced quality sound
recognize the difference when they hear it and will contiue to seek it
out.


Sound, of any kind, comes to the attention of our conscious mind to a
certain extent, among some folks more than others, but impacts the
subconscious all thet time for everyone, and the subconscious is vastly
larger and more powerful than the conscious.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:22:53 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:25:25 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

Thirded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAv2FoYji8

Poly


And for those who think they are pretty good at slide guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCGd...eature=related

A touch humbling.



Hmmm...that's the same slide I use.
Mine must be broke


Can you make it vanish and reappear by magic? I've practiced, but it
won't happen for me.

d


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On 1/8/2012 11:13 AM, hank alrich wrote:

Some of those are pretty amazing. I've attended a "house concert" in
what is a 150-seat backyard amphitheater chopped out of limestone.
Friends of mine have played a "house concert" where the band made $3500.


Talk about work the host has to do to set up a concert like
that! Even if you have a big yard and rent 150 chairs,
that's a major effort. I assume that for deals like that,
either the host is very well off and generous or "costs" get
deducted from the artist's take.

They can help raise awareness of one's offering, and the neat thing
about them is that it only takes one person with a solid following of
folks who have learned that said person finds good music. When the call
goes out it often doesn't matter that the folks getting the message may
not have heard of you before.


Around here, most of the people coming to do house concerts
have either been around quite a bit (I'll miss Norman
Kennedy's upcoming house concert because of my trip to NAMM,
and he's been coming to sing around here for more than 30
years) or they do their homework and get interviewed or at
least played on local radio. Also, going along with what you
said about the host knowing good music, around here there's
one regular host for old time string band music, one for the
Brit/Celt singers, one for old folkies like us. I'm sure
there are other house concert hosts around here that I know
nothing about, probably because I don't care about the music
they tend to host and wouldn't attend a concert there anyway.

A few very well
established and highly regarded house concert presenters have booked us
and that has helped our credibility considerably. AFAICT we have been
the least well-known act ever to play for them, and we did well enough
that they'll have us back, and we'll play to a larger house, 'cause we
done good.


Around here, you'd probably do OK with one of the old time
or old folkies hosts, but you'd need some air play to draw
more than a few flies.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:22:53 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:25:25 -0500, "polymod"
wrote:


"Arkansan Raider" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:

Get hold of Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD. The sound is
quite
incredible. Apparently he and the band worked on it for weeks before
they would play the venue.

d

Seconded. Friggin' unreal. Or should I say, exceptionally real.

Thirded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAv2FoYji8

Poly


And for those who think they are pretty good at slide guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCGd...eature=related

A touch humbling.



Hmmm...that's the same slide I use.
Mine must be broke


Can you make it vanish and reappear by magic? I've practiced, but it
won't happen for me.


Ditto here

Poly


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Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/8/2012 11:13 AM, hank alrich wrote:

Some of those are pretty amazing. I've attended a "house concert" in
what is a 150-seat backyard amphitheater chopped out of limestone.
Friends of mine have played a "house concert" where the band made $3500.


Talk about work the host has to do to set up a concert like
that! Even if you have a big yard and rent 150 chairs,
that's a major effort. I assume that for deals like that,
either the host is very well off and generous or "costs" get
deducted from the artist's take.


The host in that case is decently well-off, but you'd never know it
hanging with him and his wife. They built that damned amphitheater
themselves, just the two of them, including building the stage. The only
thing they farmed-out was the electrical service.

The natrual terracing of limestone, revealed by chopping away, layer by
layer. Hell of a setting.

First time there I looked at the sound system I thought, man, that's not
what I'd have spec'd here. Then the guy operates it so intelligently
that it works perfectly. You never hear the system.

"The Rock Garden", downpage:

http://barbedwire-music.com/

You can tell they're a little ways into it. g Wonderful people who
love music, are generous, and who work their butts off to present it.

They can help raise awareness of one's offering, and the neat thing
about them is that it only takes one person with a solid following of
folks who have learned that said person finds good music. When the call
goes out it often doesn't matter that the folks getting the message may
not have heard of you before.


Around here, most of the people coming to do house concerts
have either been around quite a bit (I'll miss Norman
Kennedy's upcoming house concert because of my trip to NAMM,
and he's been coming to sing around here for more than 30
years) or they do their homework and get interviewed or at
least played on local radio.


Right. Most of the folks who've presented us have been bringing acts to
their setting for a long time, and as I said, all those other acts have
much longer tenure than we do. Honestly, we felt honored that they'd
even consider us in the first place. One of them has had a Saturday
morning folk music show for twenty years, and has been presenting
concerts at his house for sixteen years. He was the first to book us for
one of those.

Several of the DJ's who've given us airplay have offered us on-air
exposure, either an interview or that plus the chance to play a few
tunes live at the station, if we get into the area covered by the
station. Obviously, we aim to accept those offers.

Also, going along with what you
said about the host knowing good music, around here there's
one regular host for old time string band music, one for the
Brit/Celt singers, one for old folkies like us.


Yep, we're seeing that, and though we bridge some of those genres, some
of the scenes are tight enough that we wouldn't fit.

Around here, you'd probably do OK with one of the old time
or old folkies hosts, but you'd need some air play to draw
more than a few flies.


Indeed. Right now we're trying to see if we can afford some publicity
assistance, targeted at getting airplay that would fill in the obvious
gaps in my Google map of our radio action.

I can't believe I'm having this much fun at my age. g Some of my
retired friends can't believe I'm itching to hit the road again, but I
am. We got enough of it last year to inspire us to chase more of it.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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On 8 tammi, 00:21, (hank alrich) wrote:

And if they do keep listening, for the most part it'll be for a spin or
two, stolen instead of purchased.


One thing that people don't often mention is that the market is really
saturated by now, and everybody is a musician, not just one in
thousand.

When I was a teen, there were very few bands in the genre I liked
around. Basically one good such band in the whole town. One music
store with like 4 guitars there ever.
There were a handful international bands, and you had to look for and/
or order their albums. Of course we also had little money as teens, so
we were hungry for more; we wore out the tapes and LPs of our favorite
bands and listened to them over and over again, because there was no
competition. There wasn't music available in huge quantities.

Today the ballpark is entirely different. In that same genre there are
literally thousands of bands. I bet in my town alone there is well
over a hundred bands just in that genre. I myself have been or am in
half a dozen such bands.
The Internet is filled with similar style bands, each better than the
next, and most of it better recorded and played than the stuff we grew
up on. In my town there are four music stores which have hundreds of
guitars and instruments on sale, nevertheless the fact most people
order a lot of stuff online too.

The library is filled with music as well. If I fire up Spotify or any
such service, or any Indie web music service like Hitlantis, I don't
even have to make choices myself. I could probably just sit on a
computer and start looking for music I like, and there would be no end
to songs in that genre, there would be much more songs out there than
I could listen to in a lifetime. Way more. And it keeps recommending
me 'similar' stuff endlessly, never needing to go back to where I
started.

So no wonder people do not listen to just one album, one song over and
over again. There is simply so much offering out there. There are
musicians and great players every which way. I only need to go to a
local bar and chances are there is some cover band playing some hit
songs and actually doing a better job of them sometimes the original
artists ever did. Recording is super easy - I myself have made covers
of my teenage favorite songs that do not shame or even are better in
audio quality at least than the originals - and I only needed a few
hundred dollars worth of equipment to kick the butt of million-dollar
studios of yesteryear.

So for a large part I believe it is NOT so much of an issue of the
media strategies and even free distribution/piracy, or that there
would be something we could do about it...it is simply that when there
used to be one good player among thousands of people, now it's more
like there's a songwriter/musician for every dozen people there are
out there, and they are also producing and releasing music more than
you can start to imagine even. I bet there is a new song uploaded to
the Internet every second, and I also bet at least one percent of
those are easily good enough to be worth a listen. There is simply no
time to listen to something twice these days, or you're missing out on
new, better stuff.

I always thought I was a bit of a 'musician' despite by no means a
pro. We just had some half a dozen friends over at our house and all
of a sudden one of them starts playing the piano - I never even knew
she could even do that - and sang absolutely brilliantly over it. And
pretty soon a few others joined singing - and I hadn't even known any
of them play or hobby with music. The lady who sang was better than
99% of female artists out there, but later when I asked, she said she
hadn't sang in years, and only ever did it for personal fun now and
then, never gigged, recorded or anything even remotely like that.

Yes, nobody bothers to listen to just one song or album, but I don't
blame the 'right-now-and-then-onto-something-new-right-away' society
style, it's more to do with the market just being insanely saturated.

Cheers,

Dee
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On 1/9/2012 9:12 PM, hank alrich wrote:

Indeed. Right now we're trying to see if we can afford some publicity
assistance, targeted at getting airplay that would fill in the obvious
gaps in my Google map of our radio action.


Once you get beyond being "local" it's a chicken/egg thing.
My friend the local folk music DJ plays who's coming to town.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff


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Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/9/2012 9:12 PM, hank alrich wrote:

Indeed. Right now we're trying to see if we can afford some publicity
assistance, targeted at getting airplay that would fill in the obvious
gaps in my Google map of our radio action.


Once you get beyond being "local" it's a chicken/egg thing.
My friend the local folk music DJ plays who's coming to town.


Yep. That said, some publicity help aimed at raising awareness in
specific markets could help both the chicken and the egg, and might cost
less than hitting the road for gigs that yet draw flies.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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"Steve Hawkins" wrote in message
31.10...

I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't matter if
they're players or not. People who haven't experienced quality sound
recognize the difference when they hear it and will contiue to seek it
out.


This has been my experience also. When the sound is remarkable better than
what they are used to hearing, they take note of it, and frequently comment
on it. That by itself isn't the point though, I want the sound to be good -
to help the audience imerse themselves in the performance.

Sean


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Les Cargill wrote in
:

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Steve wrote in
message 31.10...

I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't
matter if they're players or not. People who haven't experienced
quality sound recognize the difference when they hear it and will
contiue to seek it out.


This has been my experience also. When the sound is remarkable better
than what they are used to hearing, they take note of it, and
frequently comment on it. That by itself isn't the point though, I
want the sound to be good - to help the audience imerse themselves in
the performance.

Sean




Bad sound wears on the players, too.

--
Les Cargill


Absolutely, a bad sounding monitor is an epic buzz-kill for me.

Steve Hawkins

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Sean Conolly wrote:
"Steve wrote in message
31.10...

I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't matter if
they're players or not. People who haven't experienced quality sound
recognize the difference when they hear it and will contiue to seek it
out.


This has been my experience also. When the sound is remarkable better than
what they are used to hearing, they take note of it, and frequently comment
on it. That by itself isn't the point though, I want the sound to be good -
to help the audience imerse themselves in the performance.

Sean




Bad sound wears on the players, too.

--
Les Cargill
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Steve Hawkins wrote:
Les wrote in
:

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Steve wrote in
message 31.10...

I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't
matter if they're players or not. People who haven't experienced
quality sound recognize the difference when they hear it and will
contiue to seek it out.

This has been my experience also. When the sound is remarkable better
than what they are used to hearing, they take note of it, and
frequently comment on it. That by itself isn't the point though, I
want the sound to be good - to help the audience imerse themselves in
the performance.

Sean




Bad sound wears on the players, too.

--
Les Cargill


Absolutely, a bad sounding monitor is an epic buzz-kill for me.

Steve Hawkins



My first choice is usually *no* monitors. I prefer to work from
the house return sound. Sometimes that's a problem, but usually it
isn't.

--
Les Cargill


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Mike Brown Mike Brown is offline
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Default Reality and Prerecorded Music Sales

In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Steve wrote in message
31.10...

I work both sides of the Mic. People do
care about the quality of the sound and comment on it, doesn't matter if
they're players or not. People who haven't experienced quality sound
recognize the difference when they hear it and will contiue to seek it
out.


This has been my experience also. When the sound is remarkable better than
what they are used to hearing, they take note of it, and frequently comment
on it. That by itself isn't the point though, I want the sound to be good -
to help the audience imerse themselves in the performance.

Sean




Bad sound wears on the players, too.

--
Les Cargill


Irritates them and interferes with their ability to perform at their
best.

MJRB
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