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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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The problem with the higher end cassette decks was always that while they
were able to make slight improvements on the performance of the cassette
format, they could not make improvements that in any way compared, either
technically or from a listening standpoint, with those that became
available at a far lower cost with even the now-endemic and cheap 16/44
digital.

The spec sheet for the ION Tape2PC shows the bitter truth quite well:

Frequency response

(-20 dB recorded level)
40-15,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Chrome tape)
40-14,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Normal tape)

(0 dB recorded level)
40-8,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Chrome tape)
40-8,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Normal tape)

The +/- 3 dB often manifested itself as maybe a 0.5 to 1 dB rise followed
by a -5 or more dB roll off at the indicated frequency.

The above is for a modern, basic cheap dual-well cassette deck costing
about $100.

What did the Nakamichi Dragon do to improve this situation?

(-20 dB recorded level)
20-21,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Chrome tape)
20-22,000 Hz +/- 3 dB (Normal tape)

I cannot find any documented bench tests that show how the Dragon works at
0 dB recorded level, but it is probably appreciably better than the $100
cheapie.

Thing is, when we are transcribing tapes, we are limited by the machine
the tape was made on, and its pretty well guaranteed that any tape we have
to work with was not made on a Dragon or something like it.



And often the main benefit of a Dragon for playback (azimuth tracking) is
just guilding an already dead lily.


As a rule, commercially duplicated cassette tapes sounded worse than tapes
made at home, even tapes made on average home machines.

Compare that to the CD format:

(-20 dB recorded level)
1-20,000 Hz +/- 0.1 dB (using any media that records and plays reliably)

(0 dB recorded level)
1-20,000 Hz +/- 0.1 dB (using any media that records and plays reliably)



Not to mention distortion, wow & flutter and a dozen other parameters
infinitely improved over cassette.

Trevor.


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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
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Absolutely true. But that doesn't change the point I was making... The
Dragon is a marvelous piece of technology.


More correctly, WAS a marvelous piece of technology (in it's day, long since
past)

Trevor.


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"mcp6453" wrote in message
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For the record, and I should have mentioned this, I am only interested in
playback. I cannot ever imagine recording to a cassette again. At this
point, I
have two plus days invested in transferring FOUR cassette tapes to
digital. If
the Dragon speeds up the process and obtains the best quality that is
available
from the tape, then it's worth the price. If I have to fight the squealing
tape
problem on the Dragon as much as I do on the Teac, my productivity will
not be
enhanced as much as I hope it will.


$1500 for four tapes! You better hope you can sell it without much effort or
THAT will have FAR more effect on your productivity!

Trevor.


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On Dec 23, 12:49*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan

"With Capstan there is now for the first time a program capable of removing
wow and flutter from musical recordings - whether on tape, compact cassette,
wax, shellac or vinyl. Capstan detects wow and flutter by analyzing the
musical material itself, so the medium is of no relevance. In this, Capstan
is clearly superior to solutions such as bias tracking, because Capstan
still works even if the tape has already been copied several times or
digitized only in low resolution. "


And they sell it for about the price of two clean Dragons. Pity -- I
could use it on some recordings I have.

Peace,
Paul
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"PStamler" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 12:49 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan


"With Capstan there is now for the first time a program capable of

removing
wow and flutter from musical recordings - whether on tape, compact

cassette,
wax, shellac or vinyl. Capstan detects wow and flutter by analyzing the
musical material itself, so the medium is of no relevance. In this,

Capstan
is clearly superior to solutions such as bias tracking, because Capstan
still works even if the tape has already been copied several times or
digitized only in low resolution."


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and vibrato --
or simply the fact that even a note played without intentional vibrato might
not have a steady pitch.

And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science" as the
process of asking the right questions. These are my "right questions" about
Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely digital recording? If so,
what happened?




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On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:06:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"PStamler" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 12:49 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan


"With Capstan there is now for the first time a program capable of

removing
wow and flutter from musical recordings - whether on tape, compact

cassette,
wax, shellac or vinyl. Capstan detects wow and flutter by analyzing the
musical material itself, so the medium is of no relevance. In this,

Capstan
is clearly superior to solutions such as bias tracking, because Capstan
still works even if the tape has already been copied several times or
digitized only in low resolution."


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and vibrato --
or simply the fact that even a note played without intentional vibrato might
not have a steady pitch.


With vibrato it will be one component of the sound only (the voice)
that has the wobble. Flutter moves everything simultaneously and
equally.

And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science" as the
process of asking the right questions. These are my "right questions" about
Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely digital recording? If so,
what happened?

In a purely digital recording, why would you need to? None of the
mechanisms that it is trying to correct exist in a purely digital
recording.

d
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:06:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and
vibrato -- or simply the fact that even a note played without intentional
vibrato might not have a steady pitch.


With vibrato it will be one component of the sound only (the voice)
that has the wobble. Flutter moves everything simultaneously and
equally.


Aren't you aware of how violins (for example) are played?

So... How does Capstan "know" what it's listening to (analyzing)?


And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science"
as the process of asking the right questions. These are my "right
questions" about Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely
digital recording? If so, what happened?


In a purely digital recording, why would you need to? None of the
mechanisms that it is trying to correct exist in a purely digital
recording.


Do you see, people? Do you see why trying to get people to think critically
is a losing battle?

My two "right questions" stand.


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On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:33:53 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:06:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and
vibrato -- or simply the fact that even a note played without intentional
vibrato might not have a steady pitch.


With vibrato it will be one component of the sound only (the voice)
that has the wobble. Flutter moves everything simultaneously and
equally.


Aren't you aware of how violins (for example) are played?

So... How does Capstan "know" what it's listening to (analyzing)?


Have you ever tried Melodyne? And perhaps more importantly, do you
think that all of the violins synchronize their vibrato? They don't,
specifically to make the sound "fatter". When you have many sounds,
all with slightly different vibrato patterns, then you do not have any
flutter to correct. It is only when EVERY sound moves in synchronism
that a correction is required.


And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science"
as the process of asking the right questions. These are my "right
questions" about Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely
digital recording? If so, what happened?


In a purely digital recording, why would you need to? None of the
mechanisms that it is trying to correct exist in a purely digital
recording.


Do you see, people? Do you see why trying to get people to think critically
is a losing battle?


No idea what you are talking about. Is it wow or flutter in an
entirely digital system that you are seeking to correct?

My two "right questions" stand.

Your first question is good, and I hope I have answered it. Your
second question is, I'm afraid, meaningless.

d
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:33:53 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:06:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and
vibrato -- or simply the fact that even a note played without

intentional
vibrato might not have a steady pitch.


With vibrato it will be one component of the sound only (the voice)
that has the wobble. Flutter moves everything simultaneously and
equally.


Aren't you aware of how violins (for example) are played?


So... How does Capstan "know" what it's listening to (analyzing)?


Have you ever tried Melodyne? And perhaps more importantly, do you
think that all of the violins synchronize their vibrato? They don't,
specifically to make the sound "fatter". When you have many sounds,
all with slightly different vibrato patterns, then you do not have any
flutter to correct. It is only when EVERY sound moves in synchronism
that a correction is required.


So flutter doesn't audibly affect the sound quality of instruments played
with vibrato, and therefore doesn't need correction? Hmmm...


And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science"
as the process of asking the right questions. These are my "right
questions" about Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely
digital recording? If so, what happened?


In a purely digital recording, why would you need to? None of the
mechanisms that it is trying to correct exist in a purely digital
recording.


Do you see, people? Do you see why trying to get people to think
critically is a losing battle?


No idea what you are talking about. Is it wow or flutter in an
entirely digital system that you are seeking to correct?


No. I'm asking how Capstan behaves when the source DOES NOT contain flutter.


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On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:44:40 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:33:53 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 04:06:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and
vibrato -- or simply the fact that even a note played without

intentional
vibrato might not have a steady pitch.


With vibrato it will be one component of the sound only (the voice)
that has the wobble. Flutter moves everything simultaneously and
equally.


Aren't you aware of how violins (for example) are played?


So... How does Capstan "know" what it's listening to (analyzing)?


Have you ever tried Melodyne? And perhaps more importantly, do you
think that all of the violins synchronize their vibrato? They don't,
specifically to make the sound "fatter". When you have many sounds,
all with slightly different vibrato patterns, then you do not have any
flutter to correct. It is only when EVERY sound moves in synchronism
that a correction is required.


So flutter doesn't audibly affect the sound quality of instruments played
with vibrato, and therefore doesn't need correction? Hmmm...

Are you reading another post? Yes, flutter does affect instruments
played with vibrato, and yes flutter will be corrected. The
instrument's own vibrato won't be "corrected" as it is present only on
that instrument, and not on all of the others on the recording. Of
course if the recording is of just the one instrument, it won't work.
But that isn 't what we are talking about, is it?


And here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science"
as the process of asking the right questions. These are my "right
questions" about Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely
digital recording? If so, what happened?


In a purely digital recording, why would you need to? None of the
mechanisms that it is trying to correct exist in a purely digital
recording.


Do you see, people? Do you see why trying to get people to think
critically is a losing battle?


No idea what you are talking about. Is it wow or flutter in an
entirely digital system that you are seeking to correct?


No. I'm asking how Capstan behaves when the source DOES NOT contain flutter.


I'm willing to bet that it does nothing, as it will find nothing to
correct.

d


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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"PStamler" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 12:49 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan


"With Capstan there is now for the first time a program capable of

removing
wow and flutter from musical recordings - whether on tape, compact

cassette,
wax, shellac or vinyl. Capstan detects wow and flutter by analyzing the
musical material itself, so the medium is of no relevance. In this,

Capstan
is clearly superior to solutions such as bias tracking, because Capstan
still works even if the tape has already been copied several times or
digitized only in low resolution."


I'm curious as to how Capstan distinguishes between flutter and vibrato --
or simply the fact that even a note played without intentional vibrato might
not have a steady pitch.


The user does it. There are a bunch of settings that have to be adjusted on
the fly, and even so it is a fine line between sucking the life out of music
and cleaning it. The overall effect is useful for severely damaged recordings
but even so it's still a slow and painstaking process.

Think of it sort of like Autotune... you can do it judiciously and you can
do it well, or you can do it without thought and make things sound awful.

and here's an example of why I'm so insistent on defining "science" as the
process of asking the right questions. These are my "right questions" about
Capstan -- Has anyone ever applied it to a purely digital recording? If so,
what happened?


I did not, but you can adjust it to that it does nothing. Likewise you can
adjust it so everything sounds like the Academy of Ancient Music. It's
a sword with two edges.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:44:40 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


So flutter doesn't audibly affect the sound quality of instruments played
with vibrato, and therefore doesn't need correction? Hmmm...


Are you reading another post?


No, I'm asking a logical question.

Yes, flutter does affect instruments
played with vibrato, and yes flutter will be corrected. The
instrument's own vibrato won't be "corrected" as it is present only on
that instrument, and not on all of the others on the recording. Of
course if the recording is of just the one instrument, it won't work.
But that isn 't what we are talking about, is it?


I thought it was.

The question remains open -- how does Capstan distinguish between flutter
and vibrato?


No. I'm asking how Capstan behaves when the source DOES NOT contain

flutter.

I'm willing to bet that it does nothing, as it will find nothing to

correct.

Okay. Has anyone done the experiment?


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Thanks for clarifying things, Scott.


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wrote in message
...

SNIP

knowing when it's advisable to go forward
using them, or, in the case of others, when nothing else
will do but re-track the session g. Or, in this case, it
might enable you to resurrect old tapes which you couldn't
otherwise with the equipment you've got to hand.


Richard's got it. You can talk about how the Dragon is old technology, or
you had a Nakamichi that wasn't what you wanted it to be, or Capstan is a
cruch with the potential to do more harm than good, but the fact remains
that there are some cassettes that have recorded material that someone
believes worth preserving/polishing at whatever cost. I've had clients
willing to pay whatever it took to retrieve material from old 8 track
cassettes, from the audio track on 1/2 inch video tape, from wire
recordings, from almost every other medium used to store audio. I'd be
interested to hear if anyone has found a powdered or liquid lubricant that
can overcome some of the tape squeal problems I've encountered with
cassettes and some older 1/4 inch tapes. I've baked a few, but it would be
cool to have a micro-spritzer with some magic juice that could take care of
squeal of the non-sticky shed variety.

Steve




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William Sommerwerck wrote:
Thanks for clarifying things, Scott.


Now, if you want real flutter removal in an unattended way, using the
Plangent system to recover residual bias and lock speed to it gives
really a night and day change in the sound. It's like everything is
tightened up and much of the sense of blending of instruments goes
away. The effect is dramatic enough that I sometimes wonder if it's
a good idea or if it's eliminating something the producer originally
compensated for in the mixing.

Mind you it's probably not practical for a 1 7/8 ips cassette.
--scott

Incidentally this morning I was going through old issues of Audio
Amateur looking for the original Jung modification to the Magnavox
CD players, and found your letter on VHS vs. Beta....

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:29:40 -0500, mcp6453 wrote:

Hello everybody. The last time I posted here has been a couple of
years ago. First I'd like to greet all RAP regulars (Hi Scott, hi Arny
and the others) here and I'm glad that you all are doing well. I'm
still fine , too.

Now, speaking of that old darn compact cassettes, I'd only say what
I'm doing while transferring them as well as reel-to-reel tapes:
I do a check by recording some bits at beginning, middle and the end
of the tape and in computer, sum it up to mono.

If there is a varied azimuth shift such at cassettes, I'm mostly
helpless as I don't have some tools by eg. Cedar and Cube-Tech
claiming that they can fix it. I'd like to know whether the resuls
were flawless without any artifacts etc.

Reel to reel tapes tend to have a more or less fixed azimuth angle
error and I do not need to adjust the azimuth screw anymore (Allen
Hex metric #8 I think, at Revox PR99 and B77 and I think at 1/4"
Studers). Instead I do this:

I downloaded a DirectX plug-in called "Sample Slide" from he
http://www.analogx.com/contents/down...e/Freeware.htm

This plug-in is capable of shifting all the track in both directions
with a 1-sample precision. Now in eg. Sound Forge, samples are shown
as dots when the envelope display is stretched to maximum. At mono
recordings, one picks the sharpest possible event, a click or similar.
Display count mode should be selected to show number of samples and
not time at the lower right information window. Now selecting the
difference between the peaks of such sharp event in left and right
track, one sees how much samples this difference is couting.

In the Sample Slide plugin, one disengages the Connect button, sets
the upper value to eg. 10 and lower value to 10 plus or minus number
of samples aready counted. After activating the plug-in, upper track
jumps 10 samples forward and lower track for number of samples stated.

If done properly, the whole recording should be sample accurate (in
the case the azimuth isn't changing over the time) and this should
give the same result as if the azimuth has previously been set
traditionally, by reproduce head screw.

Also,

By summing up monitors and inverting the right track, one can hear the
difference only and, upon setting both values in the Sample Slide
plugin to eg. 10, he can "wander" to and fro to achieve the best
cancellation. False positives are of course possible, so here a 2-3
samples headroom will do the best in most cases. Higher values would
be nesessary for only for recording being desperatedly out of track.
Of course, don't forger to invert the second track to its normal and
set the monitors back to stereo.

This is for mono. For stereo this second method is also applicable
with good results, but now you are watchinhg for best cancellation of
middle signals such bass, vocal etc. Similary to various "vocal
remover" tools fo karaoke.


I also pay attention to the correct pitch. Nobody warrants that an old
recording is recorded at exactly 50 or 60 Hz and with dubs, things get
worse. Usually, there is a residual 50/100 o6 60/120 Hz hum. This
should be sufficient for estimating the pitch as you can select a
silent ie. empty piece of recording and check it with a FFT analyser
(Sound Forge has it built-in). For the final check, again in Sound
Forge, you have a midi keyboard option, by which you can use your ears
and make a final check.

It is astonishing how things get better after correctingh the pitch.
Not only the piece can be accompanied without actually de-tuning your
instrument but (what is more important) the sound gets more open,
precise and natural. This is because by retuning the recording to the
normal pitch (assumed A440, but caveat, this is not always the case
especially with shellac records), you are bringing the harmonic
structure back to normal. Well no more honky Micky Mouse or Donald
Duck voices. Its of course not because singers or speakers were quite
young then (that is true allright) but by detuning, human voice
formants are messed up as well.

So, this is my opinion about the two issues , about the effect of
flutter and scrape flutter on harmonics I'd beter not discuss now...


Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all,


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia



Since I'm off until the end of the year, I decided to finally archive a large
quantity of audio cassettes. Unfortunately, when I cranked up my cassette deck
for the first time in a while, it was toast. The logic is screwed up on the left
well such that the door will not open. The pressure roller on the right side is
coated and hard to clean.

There turned out to be a couple of cold solder joints in the power supply, which
I fixed, and that allowed me to get the right deck going, but I don't have any
confidence in the deck. It already ate one tape.

Are the new cassette decks ($300 range) any good? I hate to spend that much
money to buy a deck just to archive, but if I don't, I'm going to end up finding
tapes that I can't play.

Alternatively, does anyone here have a semi-pro deck in great shape to sell?

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If done properly, the whole recording should be sample accurate (in
the case the azimuth isn't changing over the time) and this should
give the same result as if the azimuth has previously been set
traditionally, by reproduce head screw.


Shifting the two tarcks in time will be able to align the two tracks (L and
R) to each other BUT head azimuth error also impacts the frequency
response in severe cases causing severe nulling in the frequency resopose of
each track. This CANNOT be corrected by simply re-timing the tracks. You
could correct it with EQ but the large amount of boost needed to flatten out
the response would certainly add noise. As far as I know the only and the
best way to correct for head azimuth errors (both timing and frequency
response) is to physically re-adjust the azimuth of the playback head to
match the tape. This cannot be done with signal processing after the fact
without adding noise.



It is astonishing how things get better after correctingh the pitch.
Not only the piece can be accompanied without actually de-tuning your
instrument but (what is more important) the sound gets more open,
precise and natural. This is because by retuning the recording to the
normal pitch (assumed A440, but caveat, this is not always the case
especially with shellac records), you are bringing the harmonic
structure back to normal. Well no more honky Micky Mouse or Donald
Duck voices. Its of course not because singers or speakers were quite
young then (that is true allright) but by detuning, human voice
formants are messed up as well.


I also disagree with this. Speed errors do not hurt the "harmonic
structure". Played back correctly 440 and 880 and 1320 are harmonically
related. If the speed is a little high the signals would be 441 and 882
and 1323. These are STILL harmonically related.

Happy Holidays....

Mark





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Edi Zubovic edi.zubovic[rem wrote:

If there is a varied azimuth shift such at cassettes, I'm mostly
helpless as I don't have some tools by eg. Cedar and Cube-Tech
claiming that they can fix it. I'd like to know whether the resuls
were flawless without any artifacts etc.


They don't fix it. They shift one track in time so that the stereo
image centers again. The Cedar one can apply a compensating eq that
boosts the highs (and the noise in the highs), making the response
roughly flat.

There is really no substitute for proper playback with correct azimuth.

Reel to reel tapes tend to have a more or less fixed azimuth angle
error and I do not need to adjust the azimuth screw anymore (Allen
Hex metric #8 I think, at Revox PR99 and B77 and I think at 1/4"
Studers). Instead I do this:


If your tapes have tones on them, adjust the azimuth according to the
tones and leave it. If the tapes weren't recorded with tones, the
shift is probably a reasonable enough thing, but really open reel
machines, if they are aligned properly and kept aligned, don't have
too serious drift issues. Mind you with a 350, keeping it aligned is
a full-time job, but it's not like the cassette where the azimuth is
always disasterously off.

If done properly, the whole recording should be sample accurate (in
the case the azimuth isn't changing over the time) and this should
give the same result as if the azimuth has previously been set
traditionally, by reproduce head screw.


It doesn't deal with the comb filtering. However, at 15 ips, the
comb filtering isn't so bad. It's not like with a cassette.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 12/24/2011 7:33 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

So... How does Capstan "know" what it's listening to (analyzing)?


If they told you, they'd have to kill you. It makes some
guesses, but they're based on things that it knows about
music. I'm certain that it can be tripped up. I got a pretty
good run through with one of the developers at the AES show
and he said that it really works best on ensemble music. A
single instrument doesn't give it enough information to
apply what it knows.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff


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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Yes, flutter does affect instruments
played with vibrato, and yes flutter will be corrected. The
instrument's own vibrato won't be "corrected" as it is present only on
that instrument, and not on all of the others on the recording.


You are simply assuming it works perfectly, William is right to be more
sceptical.



Of
course if the recording is of just the one instrument, it won't work.
But that isn 't what we are talking about, is it?


There were plenty of solo instrument recordings done on tape, and lot's more
that contain a solo passage somewhere.


No. I'm asking how Capstan behaves when the source DOES NOT contain
flutter.


I'm willing to bet that it does nothing, as it will find nothing to
correct.


You are a gambler, William is simply asking for some proof.
I'm with him, I'd always test it on something known not to need it, and see
if it screws up. Then I'd repeat that test on a number of other tracks that
don't need it before trying it some that do.
If the price mentioned is correct, I won't be trying it though.

Trevor.


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On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:47:57 +1100, "Trevor" wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Yes, flutter does affect instruments
played with vibrato, and yes flutter will be corrected. The
instrument's own vibrato won't be "corrected" as it is present only on
that instrument, and not on all of the others on the recording.


You are simply assuming it works perfectly, William is right to be more
sceptical.



Of
course if the recording is of just the one instrument, it won't work.
But that isn 't what we are talking about, is it?


There were plenty of solo instrument recordings done on tape, and lot's more
that contain a solo passage somewhere.


No. I'm asking how Capstan behaves when the source DOES NOT contain
flutter.


I'm willing to bet that it does nothing, as it will find nothing to
correct.


You are a gambler, William is simply asking for some proof.
I'm with him, I'd always test it on something known not to need it, and see
if it screws up. Then I'd repeat that test on a number of other tracks that
don't need it before trying it some that do.
If the price mentioned is correct, I won't be trying it though.

Trevor.


It is really simple. If you don't hear anything to correct, don't
correct it.

d
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
It is really simple. If you don't hear anything to correct, don't
correct it.


Of course, but the usual test is to more easily hear what might go wrong
when there *is* something to correct.
As Scott has pointed out though, it's not a hands off process, but one that
definitely requires listening and tuning, so you are right in that testing
on known good material is probably pointless in this case.

Trevor.


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On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:41:34 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

The question remains open -- how does Capstan distinguish between flutter
and vibrato?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


There is another process, the Plangent Technology "Clarity" set-up, which
claims to eliminate wow & flutter in analog recordings by analyzing the bias
signal and fixing that. This assumes that the recording isn't a dub made
from bad source material. Since it's really just dealing with the sound per
se, but rather with the bias, it's a pretty effective process.

The explanation here is pretty interesting:

http://www.triggertone.com/term/Clar...ngent_Processe
s

I know of at least one company in LA using this to do restoration work on old
motion pictures. To me, the theory behind this makes more sense than the
Capstan process.

--MFW

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"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:41:34 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

The question remains open -- how does Capstan distinguish between flutter
and vibrato?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


There is another process, the Plangent Technology "Clarity" set-up, which
claims to eliminate wow & flutter in analog recordings by analyzing the
bias
signal and fixing that. This assumes that the recording isn't a dub made
from bad source material. Since it's really just dealing with the sound
per
se, but rather with the bias, it's a pretty effective process.

The explanation here is pretty interesting:

http://www.triggertone.com/term/Clar...ngent_Processe
s

I know of at least one company in LA using this to do restoration work on
old
motion pictures. To me, the theory behind this makes more sense than the
Capstan process.


Agreed with a caveat:

I suspect that people who are serious enough about restoration to invest in
Palngent will also have Capstan around. Certainly, if you can pay the
piper for Plangent process, Capstan is chump change for you.




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On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 08:28:30 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ) :


"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:41:34 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

The question remains open -- how does Capstan distinguish between flutter
and vibrato?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


There is another process, the Plangent Technology "Clarity" set-up, which
claims to eliminate wow & flutter in analog recordings by analyzing the
bias
signal and fixing that. This assumes that the recording isn't a dub made
from bad source material. Since it's really just dealing with the sound
per
se, but rather with the bias, it's a pretty effective process.

The explanation here is pretty interesting:

http://www.triggertone.com/term/Clar...langent_Proces
se
s

I know of at least one company in LA using this to do restoration work on
old
motion pictures. To me, the theory behind this makes more sense than the
Capstan process.


Agreed with a caveat:

I suspect that people who are serious enough about restoration to invest in
Palngent will also have Capstan around. Certainly, if you can pay the
piper for Plangent process, Capstan is chump change for you.



Isn't there a Pro Tools plug in that is supposed to reduce wow and flutter

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

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On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:37:38 -0800, Ty Ford wrote
(in article ET):

Isn't there a Pro Tools plug in that is supposed to reduce wow
and flutter
------------------------------snip------------------------------


Man, if you find out the name, let me know!

There are a couple that allow you to adjust stereo phase (adjusting for bad
azimuth, to a point), but they're pretty rudimentary.

--MFW

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"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:37:38 -0800, Ty Ford wrote
(in article ET):


Isn't there a Pro Tools plug in that is supposed to reduce wow
and flutter
------------------------------snip------------------------------


Man, if you find out the name, let me know!

There are a couple that allow you to adjust stereo phase (adjusting for
bad
azimuth, to a point), but they're pretty rudimentary.


Not only that but the kind of phase adjustments they provide can't possibly
fully address the treble losses in each track due to poor azimuth
adjustment.

That all said, heroic attempts to recover audio from cassette tapes are
similar in concept to teaching pigs to fly. It was only the desperation of
the time that made anybody consider the cassette format as commonly
implemented to be a true high fidelity medium.


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On 12/27/2011 8:09 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:37:38 -0800, Ty Ford wrote
(in article ET):


Isn't there a Pro Tools plug in that is supposed to reduce wow
and flutter
------------------------------snip------------------------------


Man, if you find out the name, let me know!

There are a couple that allow you to adjust stereo phase (adjusting for
bad
azimuth, to a point), but they're pretty rudimentary.


Not only that but the kind of phase adjustments they provide can't possibly
fully address the treble losses in each track due to poor azimuth
adjustment.

That all said, heroic attempts to recover audio from cassette tapes are
similar in concept to teaching pigs to fly. It was only the desperation of
the time that made anybody consider the cassette format as commonly
implemented to be a true high fidelity medium.


Or there are those of us who archived things on cassette in years gone by not
thinking that the content would be personally valuable in years to come. Time
changes things. I'm not one of the class who tried to use cassette for high
fidelity recordings, but I do have a lot of content for which I am willing to
spend more money than I should to retrieve the content in its best possible form.

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It is possible to make very good recordings on Compact Cassette, especially
with metal-particle tape on well-engineered three-head decks. (I know,
because I've done it.)

The real problem with cassettes is that they're not archival. Not only is
the tape itself mechanically fragile, but the wavelengths are so short that
the recording gradually self-erases at high frequencies, even with Type IV
materials. (Again, I can verify this from experience.)




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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 06:08:34 -0500, Marc Wielage wrote
(in article ):

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:37:38 -0800, Ty Ford wrote
(in article ET):

Isn't there a Pro Tools plug in that is supposed to reduce wow
and flutter
------------------------------snip------------------------------


Man, if you find out the name, let me know!

There are a couple that allow you to adjust stereo phase (adjusting for bad
azimuth, to a point), but they're pretty rudimentary.

--MFW


Hey Marc,

Here ya go!

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan&L=0

Season's Best,

Ty Fordf

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
That all said, heroic attempts to recover audio from cassette tapes are
similar in concept to teaching pigs to fly. It was only the desperation of
the time that made anybody consider the cassette format as commonly
implemented to be a true high fidelity medium.


Most people were quite happy to consider it a convenient music format in the
car, boom boxes etc. (just as MP3 does now)
Only morons ever considered it "HiFi". Even bigger ones are paying over $1k
for a used Dragon nowadays! :-)

Trevor.


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"Trevor" wrote in message
...

Only morons ever considered it "HiFi".


A good cassette deck could copy fairly demanding material with little or no
audible change. Isn't that a good definition of "high fidelity"?


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Trevor wrote:
: Only morons ever considered it "HiFi". Even bigger ones are paying over $1k
: for a used Dragon nowadays! :-)
: Trevor.

I disagree. It depends on how valuable the material on the cassette is.
If I had a cassette tape that contained the only known recording of
Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong performing together, recorded by some
guy who snuck a cassette recorder into the hall, it would be well-worth
extracting the very best transfer of it possible. $1K would be peanuts
in such a case, compared to the value of the recording.

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On Dec 27, 9:01*pm, wrote:
Trevor wrote:

: Only morons ever considered it "HiFi". Even bigger ones are paying over $1k
: for a used Dragon nowadays! :-)
: Trevor.

I disagree. *It depends on how valuable the material on the cassette is..
If I had a cassette tape that contained the only known recording of
Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong performing together, recorded by some
guy who snuck a cassette recorder into the hall, it would be well-worth
extracting the very best transfer of it possible. *$1K would be peanuts
in such a case, compared to the value of the recording.


An actual case: I have a cassette of what may have been the last
concert that folksinger Peter Bellamy gave before his tragic death.
That's more than worth the hassle it took to transfer it, at least to
those of us who revered his music.

Similarly, my former wife made a field recording of a shape-note
singing held by an Alabama group which I believe is no longer active.
Fidelity? Atrocious (she used a handheld cassette recorder, all she
had available). Musical and folkloristic importance? Priceless. (This
group had an unusual repertoire which didn't match that of most Sacred
Harp singing groups).

Again, worth all the work to extract the most from the recording.

I transferred both of them using a Nakamichi CR-3A, not quite up to
the Dragon standard but very good sound, In the case of the Bellamy
recording, that was the machine it was made on, which always helps.
And it had been tweaked up beforehand, so the azimuth was spot on.

Peace,
Paul


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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 08:33:48 -0800, Ty Ford wrote
(in article ET):

Here ya go!

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=capstan&L=0

------------------------------snip------------------------------


Oh, that's a standalone program. I was asking about an actual Pro Tools
plug-in, which sounded too good to be true!

--MFW

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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Trevor" wrote in message
...

Only morons ever considered it "HiFi".


A good cassette deck could copy fairly demanding material with little or
no
audible change. Isn't that a good definition of "high fidelity"?


Depends what one calls "little or no audible change". Running ABX tests on
cassette machines is cruel and unusual punishment for the machine and the
media, and an easy walk in the garden for the listener. Been there, done
that many times. Even the best studio machines can't pass this test:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_tapg.htm

IME there was never a analog tape machine that could record and playback LPs
without some clearly audible change, and that includes high end studio
machines in an excellent state of adjustment.

A cassette machine whose sound was in the same league? Mission impossible!



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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Trevor" wrote in message
...


Only morons ever considered it "HiFi".


A good cassette deck could copy fairly demanding material with little
or no audible change. Isn't that a good definition of "high fidelity"?


Depends what one calls "little or no audible change". Running ABX tests on
cassette machines is cruel and unusual punishment for the machine and the
media, and an easy walk in the garden for the listener. Been there, done
that many times. Even the best studio machines can't pass this test:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_tapg.htm


IME there was never a analog tape machine that could record and play back
LPs without some clearly audible change, and that includes high end studio
machines in an excellent state of adjustment.


A cassette machine whose sound was in the same league? Mission impossible!


I won't gainsay your testing experience. I might be biased because the first
really good-sounding tape deck I owned was a Nakamichi 700 II. And -- under
admittedly casual comparisons -- it did not introduce obvious errors.

My previous machines had been a Sony 350 (a popular 3-head deck that sold
for $200 in the '60s), a Pioneer RT-2000 semi-pro deck with interchangeable
heads and recording amps, and a TEAC 450 cassette deck. All audibly degraded
the input. The TEAC's sound was typical TEAC -- flat and grainy. (This was
also true of TASCAM open-reel machines.) The Nakamichi easily beat them
all -- it was clean and transparent.

Needless to say, when digital came in, I switched and never looked back.

Important Point... Running listening tests on tape decks has a problem you
can't get around -- you always know which signal is the source, and which
the playback.


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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...

Important Point... Running listening tests on tape decks has a problem you
can't get around -- you always know which signal is the source, and which
the playback.


If your source is digital, you simply play the digital source and the output
of the tape machine level matched, time synched, and double blind.

It is true that one can reliably tell the difference, but just by means of
listening.

AFAIK, that was what was done he

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_tapg.htm

These tests were done by my friend (for decades) David Carlstrom, who was in
the day arguably the best or among the very best analog tape technicians in
Michigan. He clearly knows how to set this kind of test up, and he owns an
ABX Comparator. The analog tape machine he used was one of the best Otaris
of the day.


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PStamler wrote:

On Dec 27, 9:01 pm, wrote:


An actual case: I have a cassette of what may have been the last
concert that folksinger Peter Bellamy gave before his tragic death.
That's more than worth the hassle it took to transfer it, at least to
those of us who revered his music.

Similarly, my former wife made a field recording of a shape-note
singing held by an Alabama group which I believe is no longer active.
Fidelity? Atrocious (she used a handheld cassette recorder, all she
had available). Musical and folkloristic importance? Priceless. (This
group had an unusual repertoire which didn't match that of most Sacred
Harp singing groups).

Again, worth all the work to extract the most from the recording.

I transferred both of them using a Nakamichi CR-3A, not quite up to
the Dragon standard but very good sound, In the case of the Bellamy
recording, that was the machine it was made on, which always helps.
And it had been tweaked up beforehand, so the azimuth was spot on.


On one hand we have fideilty and on the other, content. The fidelity of
most of field recordings I have is horrible, while the content has been
captivating and deeply informative.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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